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Interview With Ed Smart, Angela Smart, Andy Thurber

Aired July 3, 2002 - 21:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight the reward money is now over $250,000. It's day 29 and still no trace of missing Utah schoolgirl, 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

Tonight, from Salt Lake City, Elizabeth's father Ed Smart, and her aunt Angela Smart. Meanwhile ex-con Richard Ricci remains a focus of the investigation.

Also tonight, Ricci's next door neighbor, Andy Thurber. He talked with Ricci just hours after the abduction. What can he tell us?

And also from Salt Lake, Andy's mother, Carma Tolman. She also lives next door to the Riccis and she has been talking with Ricci's wife.

Then our panel. In L.A., defense attorney Mark Geragos. Orlando, world-renowned forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee, and here in Washington, former federal prosecutor Cynthia Alksne. Also with us, "Newsweek's" man in Salt Lake City, Kevin Peraino.

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight.

Thank you for being with us as we head into the July 4 weekend. Let's go to Salt Lake City. Joining us there, Ed Smart and Angela Smart. Hi, Ed. Hi, Angela.



GRACE: I want to thank you for being with us tonight. I know it's day 29, and you are on edge. I know that. Thanks for taking time to be with me. Mr. Smart, how is your family tonight?

E. SMART: You know, our family is holding up, I would say, surprisingly well under the situation. It's definitely hard. It's hard to not have Elizabeth back, and we know that she is alive out there, and we want her back.

And I would just, you know, initially like to make a plea to whoever this captor or perpetrator is to please, please let her go. I just -- I can't plead and beg enough for you to let her go.

GRACE: Mr. Smart, tomorrow, July 4, families are going to be together all over the country, they'll be having barbecues, they'll be in their backyard. What is your family going to do tomorrow without Elizabeth with you?

E. SMART: It will be hard without Elizabeth. She's one of the lights in our family and she's just a sweetheart, but we are going to be getting together as a family.

I'm sure that we'll be having prayers (AUDIO GAP) I just -- it's just -- it's something that's very -- it's difficult. I mean, without her there, it's hard to have any kind of a celebration.

GRACE: Right. I imagine tomorrow you'll be continuing your search. I understand today that the reward money was increased. What can you tell me about that?

E. SMART: Well, the reward money, there is a $250,000 reward out there for the safe return of Elizabeth. The other reward money that came out today was the $25,000 for leads leading to the -- to finding Elizabeth or finding the abductor, leading to his arrest. So it's really kind of a separate reward from the $250,000.

So it's not increasing the $250,000 but it is for tips leading to the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator and leading us to finding Elizabeth.

GRACE: You know, there seems to be, Mr. Smart, new developments every day. First there was Bret Michael Edmunds, now the focus is on Ricci, possibly another person arrested in connection with this.

How does that leave you feeling, as you hear these developments every day? What do you do when you wake up in the morning and you read the newspaper and find out about another development?

E. SMART: You know, the police have been really good working with us and letting us know how things are coming. We haven't just -- we still haven't put all of our eggs in one basket, because we haven't seen Elizabeth yet, but we are just hopeful that their efforts, along with all of the efforts of the searchers, are going to lead us to Elizabeth.

And you know, there are -- there are so many people, wonderful people out there that have donated their time, and there is a number I would like to request people who have tips to call, it's 801-799-INFO. And we're just hoping that there is going to be that one person that sees the tip that leads us to Elizabeth, and we're just hoping that this weekend, being July the 4th, everyone is going to be out there at their cabins, their summer homes and these different areas, and we just want them to spend a little extra time looking around, you know, enjoying themselves, but just putting a little effort into searching their area and trying to keep an eye out for that one clue, that unusual situation that's going to lead us to Elizabeth.

GRACE: You know what, Mr. Smart? You are so right. It may only take one clue to crack this case. Let me go to you, Angela Smart.

A. SMART: Yes.

GRACE: I know your family is in overwhelming pain. I want to thank you for being with us, and I know you have a message for the viewers tonight. What is it?

A. SMART: We would just ask that everybody, as they go out this holiday, that they continue using their eyes and ears and to be thinking about possibilities. If you go to your cabin, maybe look at a few cabins around you that maybe aren't usually occupied, or anything that might be suspicious, that we ask that everybody -- we don't know where Elizabeth is, and it's so important that we continue to look for Elizabeth, and we ask that everybody else continue to look for Elizabeth, to go the cabins when they're hiking, when they're doing different things this weekend, that they are paying attention, that we don't have Elizabeth and we would appreciate their help in helping us find her.

GRACE: Angela, I watch your family, the Smart family, every single day, and I know you have been slapped in the face with the statistics about child kidnap and the likelihood that Elizabeth is not still with us, but you believe. You believe, and I can see it in your face, you believe she's still alive, that she's out there. Why?

A. SMART: We do. We do believe that. And we know the statistics, we're fully aware of all those. We're waiting for the miracle. We know that.

GRACE: You know, Mr. Smart, yesterday your wife, Mrs. Smart, told a story about Betsy Ross. What was the meaning?

E. SMART: Basically the meaning was that Betsy Ross endured hardships, and we know that Elizabeth is out there and she is enduring -- I can't even imagine what kind of hardships she is enduring, but we are just asking her to remember how Betsy Ross just stayed true to what she believed, and to tell Elizabeth to stay true. Keep the faith. Know that everyone is out there looking.

I have been overwhelmed by the love, the support from the community, from the nation, from the world. We have just -- every day we receive letters from people. Today I received a letter that was from a fellow who -- we don't know the people, but he said to me, Ed, you know, this has had a profound affect on my life. I was up there help search one day. He said, I'm an atheist and I found myself on my knees. And he just said, you know, this type -- this is an assault on children. It is not -- it is like she was my child and I resent the fact that somebody would intrude and think that he could take her for whatever reason it is that he is out there for.

And I've just been overwhelmed by the love and the support and truly, she has become a daughter of the nation, of the world...

GRACE: Mr. Smart, Mr. Smart?

E. SMART: Yes. GRACE: I want you to know that so many prayers are headed your way as we head into this weekend. And I want to thank you for being with us...

E. SMART: Thank you.

GRACE: As well as to Angela, thank you.

A. SMART: Thank you.

GRACE: Everyone, we have got to take a quick break.

When we come back, more on the search for Elizabeth.


GRACE: Welcome back everyone. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with me.

Here in the studio with me, here in Washington, D.C., Andy Thurber, the next door neighbor to a man that has taken center stage in the search for Elizabeth. He's not been named as a suspect, Richard Ricci.

Andy, a question, you stated that that morning, the morning after Elizabeth had been abducted, you woke up to a commotion outside of your home. What happened?

ANDY THURBER, RICCI'S NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR: Well, I went to my back door because that's where the commotion was coming from. I opened up my back door and Richard Ricci was, I guess, fixing a hole at my back door. He was acting kind of strange because it's 8:30 in the morning and he's pounding on my trailer.

GRACE: Well, have you ever known him to get up that early in the morning and start digging in the yard?


GRACE: Well, OK. So, you wake up. He tells you he's digging the hole to keep the cat from coming in. What happened next?

THURBER: We -- I went back into the house. My son was kind of bothering me about going to a movie. And...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you talk to Ricci?

THURBER: Oh, just said what are you doing. And he said he was fixing this hole. But, it's kind of strange. The hole he was fixing was with a two by four, a half-inch piece of wood and a three-quarter inch piece of wood. It didn't block the hole. It was just like set there.

GRACE: I'm interested in what, if anything, he had to say. THURBER: Oh, he asked if I heard on the news. And I really hadn't heard anything yet. And he proceeded into telling me that this girl was abducted from her house by gunpoint, and that the guy had told her that if you say anything, I'll kill the little girl or Elizabeth Smart.

GRACE: The little sister.

THURBER: Yes. And...

GRACE: So, he told you all that that morning?

THURBER: Yes. He even actually went into how he knew the Smarts.

GRACE: And what did he say, as you recall it?

THURBER: He said that he had worked for them, and then he went into the story of Elizabeth herself, after he told me he worked for him. Told me he was a real nice guy.

GRACE: You mean, Mr. Smart?

THURBER: Yes. But then he went into Elizabeth.

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

THURBER: Well, he started telling me how nice she was and how she helped him around the house when he was working there, and then how pretty she was. And basically then he grabbed his cup and took a drink.



GRACE: 8:30 in the morning?

THURBER: Yes. I found that kind of strange myself.

GRACE: OK. Now, hold on just a moment. The other night, his wife, Angela Ricci, was here, interviewed by Larry King, OK. I want you to take a listen to what she had to say.



ANGELA RICCI, RICHARD RICCI'S WIFE: When he saw Mr. Smart on the TV, he was very heartbroken. He really liked the Smarts, especially Ed. He has a lot of respect for him. And he was just devastated and I feel he could genuinely feel the pain of losing a child.


GRACE: Andy, that morning, did he seem to be in a lot of pain, devastated over the loss of Elizabeth as he discussed her with you?

THURBER: No, nervous.

GRACE: Now, why do you say nervous?

THURBER: Sweaty and nervous.


THURBER: He was jittery. He just -- he wasn't Ricci. He was -- it was kind of weird. It's hard to explain. He just, like, what he was talking about, you know, and then I had went back into the house after that. And then when I came to ask him to take me to the movie and everything, he was just -- he didn't seem depressed. He seemed nervous.

GRACE: Now, another issue I've been wondering about is that he volunteered, allegedly, that he thought police would somehow implicate him in this whole thing.

THURBER: Oh, yes.

GRACE: What brought that up?

THURBER: He just said, yes, I'm going to be getting questioned for this. He said that that morning, too.


THURBER: He just up and told me that. I didn't ask him if he'd be implicated. He just asked me.

GRACE: Now, you are saying that you thought he was drinking that morning, 8:30 in the morning. Now, also the other night, Mrs. Ricci -- now, how long have they been married?

THURBER: February?

GRACE: OK, that's right. Valentine's Day.

THURBER: Valentine's Day.

GRACE: Valentine's Day, in February. She said he wasn't acting strange at all and, as a matter of fact, before you answer, I want you to listen to this. This is what Mrs. Ricci had to say on this subject.


KING: You also said that he was acting, your husband was acting really strange and drinking the morning after the abduction. Thurber, who spent part of the day following the abduction with Ricci, said he was acting really different. What was that...

RICCI: It's not his habit to drink early, for one thing. He wasn't nervous when I was at home. We had a very normal morning other than the devastation of a child being taken. And him and Andy are not that close.

KING: So he's not that close to him. He didn't act any way strange that morning?

RICCI: Absolutely not.


GRACE: What do you have to say about that?

THURBER: Well, if he was devastated, he would have been acting strange anyways.

GRACE: Are you two guys that close? How long you have known him?

THURBER: I've known him almost as long as she has.

GRACE: You see him everyday?

THURBER: I mean, I probably met him the same time that she did.

GRACE: Do you see him every day? You're right next door to each other.

THURBER: Oh, every day. Yes, I've let him borrow my guitar.

GRACE: Have you heard regarding someone else in the same mobile home park being arrested?

THURBER: There was a guy that we -- I helped Ricci out on Angela's dad's house, cutting down a tree. And there was a guy there, I can't really remember his name, but he was from prison too.

GRACE: Right. Right. Now, so far, Ricci has not been named as a suspect. Since all this went down, have you spoken to either Ricci or Angela Ricci?

THURBER: Yes. I spoke to Angela and I really can't say -- she just kind of -- she hasn't been herself. So, it's hard to really say...

GRACE: Had you ever seen the white jeep parked there?

THURBER: In what time period?

GRACE: Well, they said that it was taken to the auto repair shop.

THURBER: OK. When it was taken, I hadn't seen it.

GRACE: Right.

THURBER: But, then one day, I thought I seen it parked out back, but I couldn't tell you if it was his jeep or not because there is a couple of them that are about the exact same. GRACE: Andy, we have got to go to break.

Everyone, when we come back, joining us along with Andy will be his mother, Carma Tolman. Stay with us.


GRACE: Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King. Thank you for being with us.

Here in the studio with me in Washington is Andy Thurber, the next door neighbor of Richard Ricci, who has not been named as a suspect but clearly as a chief focus of law enforcement there in Salt Lake City in the disappearance of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart. And joining us also tonight, his mother, Carma Tolman. Hi, Carma.


GRACE: Carma, let me go to you regarding Angela Ricci allegedly coming over to your place soon after her husband had been taken into custody. What happened?

TOLMAN: Well, she came over and she was very sad. She was crying. And she had told me that the FBI had said they had found his truck with some items in it. And she was very, very upset.

GRACE: Did she name the items?

TOLMAN: Yes. She said there was two plastic bags, a machete, and also that the mileage on the -- I guess it's an odometer -- had went to 1,000 miles.

GRACE: Now, we all know, it's been out there, day in, day out, that Mrs. Ricci is providing an alibi for her husband, Richard Ricci, stating that he was in bed with her at home the night little Elizabeth was abducted. Ma'am, you have told us earlier that she had asked different people in the neighborhood if they saw him leave that night. Is that true?

TOLMAN: Well, what she had said to me was that she wanted to find out if he had left, and so she was going to question -- she questioned me and she went across the street and questioned another neighbor. I don't know if she questioned any other people, but I know she did the neighbor across the street.

GRACE: But she did question you, Carma, regarding whether he had left the premises that night if you had seen anything?

TOLMAN: Yes, she did.

GRACE: What did she ask you?

TOLMAN: Well, she just says, Carma, have you ever seen him leave late at night or do anything like that. And I says, no, I haven't because I keep my blinds closed. And you know, I just -- I just don't see what's going on. I just -- you know, I just kind of like mind my own business. I don't know really what does go on.

GRACE: Well, regarding Angela marrying Richard, you knew Angela long before she married, correct?

TOLMAN: Yes, I did.

GRACE: Now, have you had conversations with her since all of this has happened?

TOLMAN: Well, yes, they -- she was so devastated though that she, you know, she mainly stayed in her house. But she was sad.

GRACE: Yes. Let me go back to you, Andy. Back to that morning, when you first saw Richard Ricci outside and he spontaneously brought up, without any urging on your part, about the Smart abduction, you stated that he mentioned Elizabeth, that he described her. In what terms?

THURBER: How nice she was, how she helped him out. And then he started to describe how pretty she was, or beautiful, I guess, was the word that he actually used for it.

GRACE: And you're sure about that?

THURBER: Oh, I'm positive.

GRACE: And how did that strike you at the time?

THURBER: I didn't strike it uncommon, because, you know, beautiful you can use in a lot of different terms.

GRACE: And she is beautiful. Elizabeth is beautiful.

THURBER: Yes. She's a pretty girl.

GRACE: Now, you mentioned that he seemed nervous that morning, that his demeanor -- what about it specifically was nervous, Andy?

THURBER: Going a thousand miles an hour.

GRACE: You mean speak rapidly and so forth?

THURBER: Speaking fast, doing so many things to keep him busy. You know, he had a lot of work, I guess, to do but he didn't have to do it. He didn't ask me.

GRACE: And you were with him later on that day, right? You went to a pawn shop or a movie or something?

THURBER: He took me to pawn my guitar so I could take -- I told him I'd take his kid if he gave us a ride. So I took Trevor (ph) and Christian (ph) with me to the...

GRACE: Did his demeanor change throughout the day?

THURBER: No, he still -- he really didn't talk to me very much. GRACE: Was that normal?

THURBER: No, that ain't normal. Ricci usually can carry the conversation by himself.

GRACE: So, quiet?

THURBER: He was quiet, and wanted to get drunk.

GRACE: Did you see him drinking throughout the day?

THURBER: Oh, yes. On the way back from the pawn shop, I offered him a couple bucks for gas, and he spent it on beer.

GRACE: Let me ask you this. Apparently, police, law enforcement, have been back out to the trailer with a search warrant. And we have heard reports that they left with bags of items. Have the police been there steadily, day in, day out?

THURBER: Sometimes, yes. I've seen them there as late as 12:00 at night.

GRACE: Carma, have you observed that too? Have police been all over the trailer park?

TOLMAN: Oh, yes. You couldn't help but miss it.

GRACE: Have they been going door to door talking to people?

TOLMAN: Well, the first big time, they were just interested in looking around the trailer, going inside the trailer. They were there until really late at Angela's house.

GRACE: And where was Angela during all this?

TOLMAN: She was there.

GRACE: During the searches, she stayed there?

TOLMAN: Mm-hmm. Yes.

GRACE: Now, what about this white jeep, Carma? Did you guys have any discussion, you and Angela, regarding the white jeep or what you may have told police?

TOLMAN: Well, other than what I've told you, no.

GRACE: Now, another question to you, Andy. You have appeared before a grand jury. Did they ask you all these questions? Did you tell your story to a grand jury?

THURBER: Yes, I did.

GRACE: Did they quiz you pretty well?

THURBER: They quizzed me about everything. GRACE: What do you mean about everything?

THURBER: Everything from Angela to Ricci. And they quizzed me on just everything.

GRACE: What was it like being there in front of a grand jury?

THURBER: Pretty nervous.

GRACE: Were the actual members of the grand jury asking you questions or just the prosecutor?

THURBER: Yes. The actual members, after the prosecutor's done, they all raised their hand and take turns asking you questions.

GRACE: How long were you in there?

THURBER: Two hours, I think.

GRACE: So, what was their main focus? Ricci?

THURBER: Not really. Kind of on -- they had to focus on what I already said. But then they put another focus on to Angela.

GRACE: Right. Right. OK. Andy Thurber, everyone, with us along with his mom, Carma Tolman, both of them next door neighbors to the Riccis, Angela and Richard Ricci. Ricci now not named as a suspect, but taking center stage in the search for Elizabeth Smart.

I want to remind you that tomorrow night Larry King is back and is going to have a very special interview with Nellie Connally. Ms. Connally is the only survivor. She was a passenger in the car with JFK the day of his assassination. That's tomorrow night.


GRACE: Welcome back everyone. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King. Thank you for being with me tonight as we head into the July 4th holiday.

Let's go straight to our panel. Still, we are discussing the disappearance and the search for Elizabeth Smart, 14-year old school girl missing, now day 29.

With me from Salt Lake City, "Newsweek's" man, Kevin Peraino. Also joining us tonight, defense attorney Mark Geragos in L.A. And, of course, renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee. Here in the studio with me, former federal prosecutor Cynthia Alksne.

Let me go to you first, Kevin. Fill me in. What's the latest?

KEVIN PERAINO, "NEWSWEEK": Well, unfortunately, not a whole lot. No bombshells at this point in the investigation. You know, investigators are still continuing to talk to people who knew Ricci. They're still not calling him a suspect, although they remain interested in him. And the state crime lab is continuing to look at the forensic evidence to see if there is anything that would tie Ricci to the crime. And so far, they haven't found anything as far as they're telling us.

GRACE: But, Kevin, it's my understanding, there's a new player in the scenario, Douglas Rex Young, age 51, a convicted felon, has a bank robbery and escape under his belt. He's a cohort of Ricci's and he worked in the Smart neighborhood. What can you tell me about Douglas Rex Young?

PERAINO: Well, we still don't know a whole lot about this guy. We know his parole was revoked like Ricci's was. I don't think that he's a focus of the investigation. You know, they -- investigators have continued to talk to all kinds of people who knew Ricci and they've talked to all kinds of other people who live in this trailer park, who have worked with him.

You know, I think when you -- when you shake up the beehive like that you're going to get, you know, some other people coming out. But I don't think -- you know, he's certainly -- one of the things that I've heard is that they're still looking for this other man that the mechanic described, who was allegedly waiting across the street.

Now, this guy doesn't exactly fit the profile of that man. He was shorter. He was described as having an athletic build. And this man that you're talking about, Mr. Young, is -- you know, I've never met him, but he's kind of -- he's lanky, has a different color hair. He doesn't exactly meet the profile of the man that Mr. Mool (ph) described.

GRACE: Well, you know, Mark Geragos, let me go to you on this. I agree once you start investigating a disappearance or possible murder of a 14-year-old girl, a lot of shaking up is going down right now. But when I hear the words arrest warrant of a guy that is a friend of Ricci's, is a convicted felon and worked in the Smart neighborhood, alarms are going off. You want to tell me that's not connected?

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that it's clear that it is. I mean they either...


GERAGOS: ... believe that they've got somebody else who's involved or they're just trying to shake the trees in terms of shaking up, if you will, or undercutting Ricci's story. I think it was interesting in your last little piece there you set up with the neighbor, that they questioned him. It sounded like it was almost more focused on Angela than it was on Ricci. And I think the reason for that is because they want to see if there's any kind of a fly in the ointment when it comes to his story or her story about where he was or the alibi.

As you know, Nancy, the alibi, whenever you have a family member, that's always kind of viewed with disfavor in -- by law enforcement...

GRACE: Yes. GERAGOS: ... they were trying to trip him up -- trip her up...


GERAGOS: ... in terms of what she was saying or anything else.

GRACE: Cynthia, how many times have you had a defendant on trial and they bring in the mother or the wife?

CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's -- this was kind of a weird thing you got out in the earlier segment, too, about the wife. After she was questioned, she went to her neighbors to see whether or not they had seen them.

GRACE: She denies that.

ALKSNE: Well, that kind of makes you go what's up with that? I mean, that's sort of a strange thing that's going on. The other strange thing that's going on that gives me pause is why is this guy Ricci spending 26 hours talking to the police? Why is he giving polygraphs?

Why is he doing everything voluntarily? I mean, I don't get that. I never understand why that happens, because so often I've taken people's statements and rang around their neck and it's amazing to me that he would continue to cooperate. I just don't get that.

GRACE: Well, I've got a question for you, Dr. Henry Lee. We know that another search warrant was issued for a second search of Ricci's trailer. And apparently the police have walked out with bags of stuff. Now, you've got to have probable cause for a search warrant. They've got to be...


GRACE: ... suspicious of something to go back in. What are they looking for, Doctor?

LEE: Well, you know, Ricci, that's the primary suspect now they have. That's probably a shotgun approach. Hopefully, collect everything and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) up something. Generally, they're looking for three type of a category evidence. The first category, item missing from Smart's home.

So, Ricci already admitted he took some stuff from Mr. Smart's home and residence, so they hopefully can find some newer things. Second type of evidence they're looking for is can -- found something can link Elizabeth to the Ricci's trailer home. The third category is any trace evidence, which can link to the residence of the Smart home.

Of course, today also he gave blood and volunteered for DNA testing. That may be an indication they found something at the Smart's home, cigarette butt or other material. They probably hopefully, some kind of linkage between the victim and the crime scene and Ricci, so they have a good probable cause and...

GRACE: Right.

LEE: ... they charge him.

GRACE: Right. And, of course, Ricci still has not been named as a suspect everyone, and we are now beginning to hear from an assistant district attorney on the case. Does that mean formal charges are pending? Everyone stay with us.


GRACE: Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace in for LARRY KING LIVE tonight. Thanks for being with us as we head into the July 4th holiday.

Mark Geragos, I know Ricci keeps saying he was not a suspect. He keeps saying, his lawyer keeps saying, I've had 26 hours of interviews. I've taken a polygraph test. I've given blood. The long story short, Mark, police obviously are not buying it. They went back into the home with a search warrant to drag out bags and bags of stuff.

GERAGOS: And I think importantly what Cynthia was saying makes a whole lot of sense in terms of this idea that they both are focused on and that grand jury, her and her story, number one. And on the secondhand, the other thing that you brought up, the fact that she's out there kind of surveying the landscape of the trailer park, to find out if anybody else saw him.

I mean, those two things are extremely telling. The fact that they've gone back to him for 26 hours, on one hand, it shows that you're being cooperative. On the other hand, the police certainly haven't lost interest with you. And so it does cut both ways.

GRACE: Cynthia.

ALKSNE: Let me, I want to bring up two points. The first is they've done two polygraphs of him. Now the only thing we know about polygraphs is if you pass the first one, you don't get a second one. And if you flunk the first one, you don't get a second one. So that kind of tells you where we're going on that.

Now let's talk about the woman for a minute, because there's an interesting legal problem here and that is one lawyer represents two people. And if the cops really believe that Ricci committed the murder, the wife has a legal problem and ultimately the lawyer cannot represent both of them because they are in conflict with each other.

So if they really are beginning to think OK, it's really Ricci, we really want to push, what they want to do is flip the wife against him on the alibi. So the feds will move in and go to the lawyer and say you can't represent both and try to push him to choose. And the minute they do that, you know that they think they've got him.

GRACE: And, Mark, question to you. We're hearing more from the assistant district attorney out there -- they're beginning to make statements. I understand the ADA huddled with the -- with the police the last two days. Does that suggest to you they are closer to formal charges...

GERAGOS: Not really...

GRACE: ... or not?

GERAGOS: ... because when you have a grand jury, generally the prosecutor is going to have involvement. I mean that's just the way that it is.


GERAGOS: You heard from your guests that they were in there, and the grand jury were asking -- the grand jurors were asking questions after the prosecutor had finished asking the questions. So that doesn't surprise me so much. If this -- if he starts to come out and there starts to be more of a public face to the prosecutor in terms of making statements, then yes, then I think you're getting ...

GRACE: Right.

GERAGOS: ... closer or very close. But at this point, it wouldn't -- I don't think you can read too much into that.


ALKSNE: Yes especially since he's a state prosecutor. It's a federal grand jury ...

GRACE: Right.

ALKSNE: ... doing the investigation. So that ...

GRACE: Dr. Lee, question to you, you've laid out three different types of information, types of evidence the police could be searching for in that mobile home. One of the things you mentioned were things taken during a burglary. You know what could cinch this case, if things were taken after the initial burglary. For instance, if they found in that home items that were taken at a later date, i.e., when Elizabeth went missing.

LEE: Yes, that's become very important. That provide a crucial link. Of course this 1,000 miles on his odometer, still an important question. You know, he was seen by neighbors at 8:00 in the morning. And his wife says he was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) whole night. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) see what the last other person witnessed to see him the night before, because 1,000 miles, that's a lot of miles, and...

GRACE: That's a lot of miles.

LEE: ... 60 miles per hour, you need at least about 16, 17 hours ...


LEE: ... driving and... GRACE: And, Dr. Lee -- Dr. Lee, according to the witness and this is a guy that has no interest in the outcome of this case. He has no reason to lie. He's a mechanic at an auto repair shop, says Ricci. He said it on the news. He -- that Ricci came in, brought the car back, covered in mud -- that Ricci was covered in mud, that the car was covered in insects, that he observed Ricci take seat covers, bags of stuff in plastic bags and a post digger out of the car, go across the street to a car that was waiting and off they went. Now, something stinks.

LEE: Something, you know, fishy there. And, of course, I'm sure the crime laboratory, forensic scientists look in the soil, because soil sample we can link to the possible origin. And in Utah, most -- I've been Utah many times and most stuff are rocks in that they have a different geographic distribution of the soil. It's an important clue. Also, you just mention about covered with bugs, which means he'd been driving during the night and those bugs...

GRACE: Interesting, interesting.

LEE: ... should be analyzed.

GERAGOS: And, Nancy, if I could add one other thing...


GERAGOS: ... that -- why that guy becomes so important, that witness, the mechanic, is the second person. If the second person...

GRACE: That's right.

GERAGOS: ... is described as smaller, if the second person in any way, shape or form, matches the description that was given of the abductor in the house, which is 5'8", hairy arms...

GRACE: Good point.

GERAGOS: ... anything along...

GRACE: Good point.

GERAGOS: ... those lines, that's why the police have such an interest I'm sure in this because that kind of -- and that might be why the family's got - still has so much...

GRACE: Hope.

GERAGOS: ... hope here because they think that there's somebody else involved who hasn't...

ALKSNE: And that's why all his buddies...

GERAGOS: ... yet been put into custody.

ALKSNE: ... all his buddies from prison are now being arrested on parole violations. GRACE: That's right. They're looking for the missing guy.

Hey, let me go to Kevin Peraino. Kevin, what was that description that was given of the driver, again, the driver of the car?

PERAINO: The -- you're talking about the man that was across the street?

GRACE: Yes. The mystery man.

PERAINO: Yes. He -- Ned Mool (ph), this auto mechanic said he didn't get a great look at him. I was down at his shop last week and it was -- it's a -- you know, it's a good distance across the street. But he said he was wearing jeans, a T-shirt. He was kind of shorter, you know, around -- he was guestimating (ph) 5'8". He said he was -- he had an athletic build and dark hair. So I mean that...

GRACE: Dark hair.

PERAINO: That's interesting.

GERAGOS: Dark hair, 5'8", which tends to fit generally, at least the description that the 9-year-old gave, which is why...


GERAGOS: ... I think the police are out there trying to beat the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GRACE: You're darn right...

LEE: Yes, Mark...

GRACE: ... you're darn right.

LEE: ... but, 5'8" dark hair also fit me too.

GERAGOS: Yes, but, but...

ALKSNE: Where were you on June 5th, doctor...


GRACE: Good point, Cynthia, where were you that night, Dr. Lee?

LEE: Well, I have witness. My wife saw me too.


ALKSNE: Oh that's another wife alibi.

GRACE: That's what Ricci said. That's what Ricci said. Let me go to you on this, Cynthia. Back to something that Mark Geragos mentioned earlier.

ALKSNE: You're not going to make me agree with Mark Geragos, are you?

GRACE: I'm afraid so.


GRACE: Back to -- back to the alibi. That's what Ricci's got going for him because she seems very believable.

ALKSNE: And she's passed a polygraph.

GRACE: Yes, and she's passed a polygraph. But if there's a chink in the armor, for instance, at the beginning she said, oh no, we didn't take that car. We didn't have the jeep. I don't know how that 1,000 miles got on there. And then, as it turns out, an eyewitness pops up naming the husband, Ricci, as taking the car. So, if there's one chink in her story, is it a house of cards, it's all going to fall down?

ALKSNE: I think somehow the prosecutor has to - you know this is not a long marriage of 40 years that you have to rip apart this marriage with all these children -- these people met each other last September. They got married in February. By my count, we're still not even at a year. So these -- this is a couple that can be separated.

GRACE: Cynthia, the honeymoon is still on.

ALKSNE: I'm thinking when your husband's in jail, the honeymoon ain't on.

GRACE: Honeymoon ...

ALKSNE: Call me crazy. But anyway...

GRACE: Good point. Good point.

ALKSNE: ... not unless there's something funny going on. But anyway ...

GRACE: You got me over a barrel on that one.

ALKSNE: So my guess is that the goal of the prosecution is really to separate these people now. And now they have an opportunity to do it because he's in jail. And as they slowly arrest everybody else that he knows, the - her support group...

GRACE: Good point.

ALKSNE: ... is gone.

GRACE: Good point. Everybody, we got to take a break. But I want to give you these two numbers, 801-799-4636, 801-799-3000, two information lines. If you know anything, if you think you know anything, call those numbers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GRACE: Welcome back everyone. I'm Nancy Grace in for Larry King. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Tomorrow, July the 4th, a lot of families will be gathering around celebrating the holiday. There's a place empty at the Smart table. Elizabeth Smart, 14 years old, it's been 29 days, not a word, not a trace.

Let me go to you on this, Mark. You've defended so many different types of criminal cases. A lot of focus on this man, this one man, Ricci. If it's not him -- he's not been named as a suspect.


GRACE: Are they damaging the case against the real person?

GERAGOS: Yes, they -- to some degree, yes. And, you know, that from having prosecuted. But that's one of the reasons they -- I mean, they really do have a unique situation here. He -- they don't have to name him as a suspect because they've got this -- the hold on him. They've got the violation.

Because they've got the violation, they've got the luxury to be able to hold him while they do the investigation, but at the same time, as you say, there's this public perception that it must be him or it should be him or you want it to be him - whatever because at least you put a face to it. However, I think to some degree that can fade if they - if this investigation turns in another direction.

Remember when was the last time somebody talked about Bret Michael Edmunds? I mean, it seems like eons ago...

GRACE: That is so true.

GERAGOS: ... and that's - and that's...

GRACE: He's totally out of the picture.

GERAGOS: Right. He's totally out of the picture and that was somebody who - it was huge news when they found him in the hospital. So to some degree ...

GRACE: Oh yes.

GERAGOS: ... the public does forget and if they find somebody else and they're able to link up that other person, then I think that you'll be able to get at least...


GERAGOS: ... from a defense standpoint ...

GRACE: Has it turned into a witchhunt?

ALKSNE: I don't think it's turned into a witchhunt. But I do think there is a need for the prosecution to either rule him out or rule him in and make some kind of decision and then move on.

Now remember, no matter who has done whatever has happened to this poor child, this guy was always going to be a suspect because he's a two-time loser. He's got an assault on a police officer. He spent most of his time in jail and importantly he had keys to the house. So, no prosecution was ever going to be ready for trial until they knew everything about this guy, everything he ...

GERAGOS: You know, that...

ALKSNE: ... did that day.

GERAGOS: ... is -- that is so true.


GERAGOS: And he's admitted that he burglarized the place. I mean, you know, he -- they would be totally remiss...

ALKSNE: Oh, and worse, he's...

GERAGOS: ... if they didn't...


ALKSNE: ... worse, he's telling neighbors he thought this girl was pretty.

GERAGOS: Yes, and...


ALKSNE: This guy who was on earlier today.

GERAGOS: Right. If they didn't eliminate him, if they didn't go through every single exhaustibly, every single possible lead to eliminate him, then they'd come back and they'd have to do it at trial anyway. So better to do it now than later on.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, again, we know that a second search warrant was executed at the home, at the Ricci home. Bags reportedly were taken from the home. Is that a good sign for the state?

LEE: Well I think they use a, you know, three-prong approach, tried to find some physical evidence. The second prong is to interview everybody and the wives and the former associate - everybody can get some information, shake something, then some information can link to him. The third, don't forget the increase -- they have besides quarter million dollars award, they just...

GRACE: Right.

LEE: ... set up a new awarding money, $25,000, for information -- just for the information.

GRACE: Just for information... LEE: ... which means...

GRACE: Uh-oh. Dr. Lee ...

LEE: Yes.

GRACE: ... I'm hearing in my ear we've got to go and there's so much left to discuss on this case. I know there's one police force working over the holiday.

Everybody, we are signing off. But I want to remind you, tomorrow night, a very special guest with Larry King. Nellie Connally, she is the only survivor riding along in the car with JFK at the time he was assassinated.

Thanks for watching. Good night.




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