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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Planned Parenthood Refuses to Release Patient Records; Sammy Sosa's Outburst Raises Questions; Rocker's Video Lampoons Tony Blair
Aired July 3, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(APPLAUSE)
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. We have a whole lot to talk about today, so stay right there, and we are going to touch on that testy exchange between Rick Reilly and Sammy Sosa, and later singer George Michael is going to join us.
He hopes you will not think he is too unpatriotic after you see his new video. You can tell us if there is cause for controversy or not, and you know how to get in touch with me, right? Just call 1- 800-310-4CNN, or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.
First up today, though, a Planned Parenthood official in Iowa could go to jail for refusing to turn over the names of women who had pregnancy tests at her center. Buena Vista County officials are trying to locate the mother of a dead infant boy left for the shredder at a recycling center. Jill June is resisting a court order to test -- to turn over those tests, and here's what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL JUNE, PLANNED PARENTHOOD: We would like to help. They've asked us to do something that is wrong. The sheriff admits himself in the interviews that he does not have a suspect, that they he are at a loss, so we feel that his loss should not be the loss of women throughout the community by having their rights violated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Well, the county attorney says these pregnancy tests aren't medical records because lay people can give them. So should planned parenthood help out the police or protect their clients? Here to talk about the case is Gloria Feldt, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. And Wendy Wright, senior policy director for Concerned Women for America. I want to welcome both of you ladies to the show.
GLORIA FELDT, PRESIDENT, PLANNED PARENTHOOD: Thank you.
WENDY WRIGHT, SENIOR POLICY DIRECTOR, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK, Gloria, I am going to start with you today. Should Planned Parenthood release those records?
FELDT: Planned Parenthood wants to help solve this horrible crime. And what we are concerned about is setting a precedent that could lead to the destruction of medical privacy for all of us.
When -- at any time, law enforcement comes to us and says that there is a specific suspect and they can produce the legal papers that allow us to do so, we always cooperate. And this is a horrible crime, and we want to help solve it, but not at the sacrifice of all of our patients' privacy. And none of our patients is even a suspect. That's just wrong to do that.
NEVILLE: OK, Wendy, before I get to you, I'm going to let Marty (ph) here -- I think you were shaking your head when Gloria was speaking.
MARTY: Right, my concern would be if they are going to go to the Planned Parenthood clinic and the other clinics, are they going to every grocery store, drug store and other medical facility and demanding that everyone who purchased or took a pregnancy test's name is given also?
Because they are picking on certain clinics and it is not a uniform question, and there is a question of privacy, but it is not being administered evenly.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
Wendy, I'd like to hear your response.
WRIGHT: Yes, actually every clinic and hospital in the area has handed over the information that the authorities are looking for. What this really shows is a systemic problem with Planned Parenthood. They believe that they are above the law, and they have no respect for human life. This goes even farther, though, than what they have done in the past, and here they are impeding a murder investigation.
Well, let's look at some other things that Planned Parenthood has done. Planned Parenthood is required by law to report sexual abuse against minors, and that includes statutory rape, and yet Planned Parenthoods across the country have been caught assisting child abusers by not reporting to authorities when a young girl goes to their clinic who's pregnant.
Now fact that she is pregnant shows that she obviously involved in some sexual activity, and in most cases, these young girls are impregnated by older men, so Planned Parenthood has no moral authority now to claim that they shouldn't assist the authorities. They don't assist the authorities in cases where they are mandated by law to do that.
NEVILLE: All right, Wendy, I'm going to take a pause here and let Gloria jump in. FELDT: We will exhaust all of the remedies to protect our patients' privacy, as we always do, because we are a trusted source of health care, information. People know they can come to us, and it would just be wrong to release records without having a specific suspect or any evidence that we need to do so.
I would just pose this question to Wendy, I guess, and to anyone: who is to say it is a woman in this case? Who is to say that it is a woman? There is no evidence, there is no evidence, and it is a terrible, terrible crime, and Planned Parenthood would be the first to want to try to help solve it when there is a specific suspect. We will be the first ones to be there.
WRIGHT: But the way to solve it is to find the mother. The way to solve it is to find the mother.
FELDT: The way to solve it is to find out who the perpetrator is, who the suspect is. And you know...
WRIGHT: And Planned Parenthood is getting in the way of actually...
FELDT: This is actually like -- this is actually equivalent to an inquisition, it is like asking every woman...
WRIGHT: Oh, that's ridiculous!
FELDT: It is specifically asking every woman who has been pregnant since last August to either produce their baby or produce evidence that they have had an abortion or a miscarriage. It is an inquisition, it's been called a dragnet, and I think that is an accurate description.
WRIGHT: Gloria Feldt, you're always trying to portray yourself as the victim. In this case the victim is that child that was tortuously killed, and I would think that if Planned Parenthood had any concern for the woman who gave birth that you would try and allow the authorities to meet with her to get the counseling that she needs -- she was probably suffering physical side effects as well, so please allow the authorities to try and find this woman so they can help her.
NEVILLE: Now Wendy, I think Gloria's point was that maybe it wasn't a woman that put this baby in this horrible situation...
WRIGHT: And that very well may be the case, but in order to find the perpetrator, you've got to at least find someone who is associated with the baby, and of course the closest association would be the baby's mother, so please, Gloria, I beg with you, tell your clinics that they need to start complying with the law and assisting the authorities, and stop standing in the way of the authorities.
(CROSSTALK)
FELDT: We want to help solve this terrible crime, there is no question about it. But we are responsible, ethical medical providers... WRIGHT: This is proving you're not.
FELDT: And we will protect our patients' privacy. As soon as, and if there is a specific suspect, we will be the first to be cooperating...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on for me, ladies. I have Stephanie (ph) here. Stephanie (ph), should Planned Parenthood release those records?
STEPHANIE: Absolutely not, unless they go to every private practice in that area.
WRIGHT: They did. in fact, the authorities went into the clinics...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on ladies, one at a time.
FELDT: Actually, the hospitals have acknowledged that the only information they released was records of live ,births which are already public information.
WRIGHT: And they complied with the authorities.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Let's ask Stephanie (ph) another question here. Stephanie, I would like to know, hypothetically speaking, if you happened to have been one of the thousand women who had gone to Planned Parenthood for whatever reason, during that particular period from August to May, would you want your records released?
STEPHANIE: Absolutely not. No, absolutely not, and also I feel that Planned Parenthood is more of a low income -- people with low income use it, so -- and that is another reason why they probably want to get in there and think that they can just take them records, but I do not think they should be able to.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
WRIGHT: We have Planned Parenthood going into...
(APPLAUSE)
...don't know what their rights are. They don't know that they have the right to have adequate information about pregnancy. Planned Parenthood takes advantage of women in these areas.
FELDT: The reason people come to Planned Parenthood, Wendy, is because they are seeking accurate and compassionate and -- information that they want to have for themselves to understand...
WRIGHT: They are seeking that help. They are not getting it. FELDT: ...and to understand their options.
Most of the women who come to us are coming for basic health care like pregnancy tests.
NEVILLE: All right. Hang on, Wendy. Wendy, please hang on for one second. I am going to let Jonathan (ph) speak out.
JONATHAN: I think that what you are asking is for someone to hand over personal records, and if Planned Parenthood -- as she mentioned, it's a trusted institute -- if they start doing that, what message is that going to send to the people who might go there for services in the future that, if you come here, the information that you give us is all of a sudden -- it could possibly become public information.
I do not think that inspires a lot of trust, and I think that what you are asking for is a regression back to, back door or back shed abortions or medical services, that could possibly be harmful to mothers.
WRIGHT: Then why, Gloria, why won't Planned Parenthood notify authorities when a minor who has been statutory raped, notify the authorities of that?
FELDT: Wendy, in that situation, as in this situation, we comply with the law.
WRIGHT: No, you've been caught. Planned Parenthoods around the country...
(CROSSTALK)
FELDT: Our first responsibility is to our patients, and we take that responsibility as a sacred trust. And we do we do...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Excuse me, ladies, once again.
FELDT: ...that is not what this particular program is about.
NEVILLE: OK, I'm going to let Cyrus here speak out. Hang on for me for one second, Wendy.
Cyrus (ph)?
CYRUS: I'm more concerned about -- we talking about handing over personal and private records of people who have been to a clinic for whatever service they offer there. And yet we're talking about a murder with a child, a child been murdered here. Personally, speaking myself, I work in a job with a federal capacity and subject myself everyday to urine samples for drug tests.
So if I'm involved in a criminal or crime activity with my job, I have to be tested for urine samples, and be subjected to that. That's my privacy you're talking about there. And yet we're talking about a baby who's been killed and yet we're concerned about their privacy issues here.
Looks like to me it's a conspiracy to cover up an issue here.
FELDT: May I answer that question, please?
CYRUS: What about an unborn child that was murdered? What about a child that murdered, that was killed? How about that?
FELDT: May I answer that? May I take that question?
NEVILLE: Go ahead, quickly. We have to take a break.
FELDT: If a person were shot, the police could not just arbitrarily knock down the doors of every apartment in the entire vicinity. They would have to be able to present a search warrant that indicates that they have a good reason for wanting to go into that apartment.
This is no different. Our patients are not suspects. Nobody is a suspect. Therefore, we will protect their privacy.
NEVILLE: OK, bottom line is, the question still remains, should Planned Parenthood turn over those records? I have George from Pennsylvania who is dying to get in -- please pardon that. And I have some audience members here who really want to get in on this conversation as well.
And of course, I want to hear from you. So give me a call -- 1- 800-310-4CNN.
And in just a minute, we will talk about Sammy Sosa and whether a sports reporter went too far when he suggested the slugger take a steroid test.
We will be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: OK, so we're talking about whether or not Planned Parenthood should help in an investigation into a baby's death by giving up the names of women who have had pregnancy tests.
And Carol (ph), you saw what?
CAROL: Well, my husband is a gynecologist, obstetrician in Texas. And everyone knows if you want your medical records released, you have to sign a release. And a lot of these women probably, at Planned Parenthood have not signed this kind of releases like you do at the hospital or any of the doctor's offices when you sign that.
So that allows you to release that information and maybe Planned Parenthood doesn't have that. And I don't mean to seem insensitive to the child that was killed, but don't we treat children in other areas like child abuse, and all of the other. They get the second, the lowest voice.
Do you see what I'm saying? The lowest voice in the nation. So this poor child has got a low voice, but the same token we don't want our privacy invaded.
WRIGHT: But remember, a pregnancy test is not medically administered. Anybody can hand those out.
FELDT: No, actually, this is a medical clinic we're talking about. These are medical records. These are official medical records. Our clinics are supervised by physicians. We have medical personnel who are well trained. And these are legal medical records.
NEVILLE: Now, Gloria, I know that...
WRIGHT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) flaunting the law.
NEVILLE: Excuse me, Wendy, please. I really want you to get your words in there, but I need to get some in here too, just for one second, all right? I wanted to say to Gloria, that in fact, the five hospitals complied, five hospitals in the area complied with the request and gave the DAs the names. And again, why isn't Planned Parenthood doing it?
FELDT: Well, what the hospitals did by their own acknowledgement is they only released information that's already public. And that is the record of live births in their hospitals.
So those records have been -- those names of women have been released. But it's public record. They were not giving anything out that was in a private medical record.
NEVILLE: OK, I want to hear from Annette (ph) now.
FELDT: That's the difference, and I hope that's clear.
ANNETTE: Well, in my opinion, we have so much that is known about this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and I think that a job is a completely different category. Yes, you might have to give up the information for your job, but I think that to choose to have an abortion would be a terrible decision to make in the first place.
NEVILLE: Right, but I just want to ask you, do you think that they should have released the records?
ANNETTE: No, I don't think so. I think that the privacy, too much is known about you anyway. And I do not think that they should. Somewhere we should draw a line.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you.
And I want to hear from George (ph) now from Pennsylvania. Go ahead, George (ph). GEORGE: Hello, Arthel. My question is for Wendy. What difference is there to releasing the records from this particular clinic? We had a case in Pennsylvania two years ago where two teenagers from Pennsylvania went to Maryland, had their child in motel room, left the child's body in the dumpster at the motel in Maryland and came back to Pennsylvania.
Now what would Planned Parenthood's record in Maryland have done in that case? It wouldn't have been a bit of good.
WRIGHT: What we have is a subpoena by a judge. They are desperate to try and find the mother, to try and find someone who may be involved in this case. And Planned Parenthood is standing in the way of doing that.
So nobody is saying for certain this woman went to a Planned Parenthood, but we don't know that she didn't. And perhaps in fact this woman, this young girl even, went to Planned Parenthood several months ago.
And whereas Planned Parenthood would have been required to report to the authorities if she had been sexually abused, and Planned Parenthood didn't do that -- you know, the reason why there may be a dead baby today is because Planned Parenthood may not have notified the authorities months ago when they were required to.
You know...
NEVILLE: OK, I've got -- go ahead, Gloria.
FELDT: Well, I mean, Wendy is doing the, you know, what people do when they don't have the facts on their side, and that is they pound the table. And they try to make up things that don't even have a relationship to the subject that's being discussed.
I mean, we want to help solve this crime if we possibly can be of assistance. But none of our patients is a suspect.
If any of our patients is a suspect, and law enforcement comes to us with a subpoena for that record, they will have it. We will cooperate willingly. But we're not going to violate the privacy of every single woman who...
NEVILLE: OK...
FELDT: ...comes to Planned Parenthood...
NEVILLE: ... hang on one second. I've got Leah (ph) here, who wants to jump in.
LEAH: Yes, they obviously have some type of body to be able to do this. What happens to DNA tests? What happened to those kinds of things to try to establish who the person that actually did this and committed this, instead of just going and blanketing all of the Planned Parenthood and all of the hospitals and everybody else. You don't have the right to take everyone's records and do a blanket search. I mean, we've got problems with all of our diversity and everything else going on, and we're losing all of our rights as human beings. And yes, this child has a right. And yes, this child's voice should be heard, and no, it can't be today because now it has been disposed of in this awful, cruel way.
But at the same time you can't take everyone else's rights away from them for the benefit of this one lone child.
WRIGHT: And this isn't taking anyone rights away. It's simply trying to find who may have information. Planned Parenthood is standing in the way of the authorities at least trying to find the first clue.
NEVILLE: OK, I have another audience comment from Elma (ph).
ELMA: Yes, my thing is they're putting so much emphasis on records. What about ways to prevent this from happening again? They're not talking about that. They're just talking about if there's a mother or a father, whatever happened. What about ways to prevent this so this won't happen...
NEVILLE: Prevent what?
ELMA: Prevent a killing or somebody leaving their child somewhere.
How can we prevent that?
FELDT: To have the social support, to have the ability for every woman of any age to be able to prevent unintended pregnancies, to have the information and health care that she needs to make good choices and not end up with an unintended pregnancy and to...
WRIGHT: And to help women...
GLORIA: And to provide the social -- and to provide the social and health support if one does become pregnant. You're right...
WRIGHT: And that's what the pregnancy resource centers do...
GLORIA: ... that would be a better thing to put our resources on.
WRIGHT: Yes, and that's what pregnancy resource centers do. They help the women through a pregnancy, and they provide the emotional help throughout and after the pregnancy.
Planned Parenthood is there just for one purpose...
FELDT: Where were they this time?
Where were they?
WRIGHT: Actually, that's a good question. Why... FELDT: Where...
WRIGHT: Where was Planned Parenthood? Where were the...
FELDT: No, where the centers that you're talking about? Where were they? Why weren't they assisting this person?
WRIGHT: In fact, they are helping women all of the time, every day. And they don't charge for their services like Planned Parenthood does.
Planned Parenthood does not help women through the emotional crisis that was obvious was happening in this case. And so these centers try and reach out to women, but unfortunately, groups like Planned Parenthood try and shut down pregnancy resource centers.
NEVILLE: OK, I have a comment from Mary (ph) here, in North Carolina, from North Carolina.
MARY: Well, actually, I know a lot of people who still use Planned Parenthood because it is a good service. It's a fee service, but it's prorated based on the amount of money that you make.
And if -- I go there myself. I expect to get the care and have the privacy that I would get from any other doctor that I would go to. And I don't think that it's right that these records should be released just because of what's happened.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
Gloria, Mary there is singing your song.
FELDT: Well, I think we're hearing what patients believe they should be able to trust Planned Parenthood to do, and that's to respect their rights to privacy. And I know that they understand that that doesn't mean if someone were a suspect in a terrible crime such as this one, that we would fail in any way to obey the law and try to help solve that crime.
But you know, most people are just trying to get their health care. They're trying to make good, responsible choices. That's why they come to Planned Parenthood. And they should be able to trust that their medical records are being held private.
NEVILLE: OK, Gloria Feldt and Wendy Wright, thanks to both of you for your passion, bringing it right to here to TALKBACK LIVE.
WRIGHT: Thank you.
NEVILLE: We appreciate that.
Wendy, you're feisty. You're feisty, Wendy.
(LAUGHTER) WENDY: I'm passionate about this.
NEVILLE: That's right, and we appreciate it.
OK, when we come back, Sammy Sosa and steroids, and "Sports Illustrated" reporter Rick Reilly.
(APPLAUSE)
(voice over): Still ahead on TALKBACK LIVE, Sammy Sosa gets into a sports squabble over steroids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK REILLY, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" COLUMNIST: He lost it. He said, You're not my father. You don't have to tell me what to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: What did Sammy say? Find out next.
Then George Michael is already defending his political satire "Shoot the Dog." You tell us if you find it offensive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Yes, but Sylvia (ph), stand up. What's the last thing that you just said.
SYLVIA: Well, Jane's a regular visitor. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people who have God-given talents, or Gal-given talents to have an opportunity to play baseball or any sport.
NEVILLE: But then James, I mean because they were going for it. You all, I'm sorry, I've got to let you in on this.
Stand up, James (ph). You have to talk this time. And what did you say to Ms. Sylvia (ph)?
JAMES: What I was saying is, steroids have been around for quite some time. And of course, if we take steroids out of the game -- I'm not saying steroids should be in the game first of all, because I don't condone nobody taking steroids -- but if we do take steroids out of the game, that means a lot of ball players are going to leave out of the game. And they're going to need rehabilitation. So I think baseball would have to do something to rehabilitate the game.
That's what I was saying.
NEVILLE: Well, thank you, James (ph).
Hey, listen guys, welcome back to you watching here. What we're talking about here, "Sports Illustrated" reporter Rick Reilly is scoring a lot of attention as well as criticism after locking horns with Chicago Cubs slugger Sammy Sosa.
Was that the plan? All right, the issue is steroids, as you just heard. Something baseball doesn't do, they don't test, OK.
Well, Sosa has said that he would be the first in line if the Players Association agreed to test. So Reilly asked Sosa to take the test anyway and show everyone he's clean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REILLY: Well, Sammy has been saying to the press all year when this testing comes, I want to be first in line. So I did my interview for a while and then I said, Hey, you still want to be first to be tested?
And he said, Yeah.
And I say, You don't have to wait. Here's a place to go.
And you'd have thought I'd have handed the guy a bucket full of anthrax or something.
I mean, he just kind of freaked.
SOSA: I would have to say that it was unprofessional (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I think that person think management on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right, with me here in Atlanta is Mike Bell who is the co-host of "Mayhem in the Morning," -- excuse me, the "Mayhem in the A.M." Mr. Bell,...
BELL: Something like that.
NEVILLE: ... on Atlanta radio, 790 -- the zone.
All right, so who was right? Sammy or Reilly?
MIKE BELL, RADIO HOST: Well, Rick Reilly is a well-respected journalist. He has the back page of "Sports Illustrated". And he didn't get that by being a knucklehead. He does his homework.
He was the guy that broke the story a few years ago. Some of you might remember that Michael Jordan was going to come back to the NBA. All the other writers, all the beat writers said, Oh, this guy is nuts.
And sure enough, he had the inside scope; Michael came back.
He interviewed Sammy Sosa; everything was going fine. Then he dropped the question as you heard in the sound bite about steroids. He said, If you're willing to be tested, why wait for something to come down from major league baseball. Let's go right now. We can get this done. I will have the results for you in 10 days.
Rick Reilly said it would be a great story. Here's Sammy Sosa comes clean. All of these rumors, about steroids, it would just wipe it right out.
Sammy Sosa went nuts. And Sammy Sosa, for those of you who are familiar with him, very happy-go-lucky guy.
NEVILLE: Hang on one second. Is it fair to say Sammy Sosa went nuts? I mean, come on...
BELL: He said a lot things we can't say on TV right here, I'll tell you that.
NEVILLE: What he did, however, this was kind of -- he was blindsided. This came out of left field.
BELL: I disagree, because I think he opened himself up to this by basically saying, Look, if they're going to have testing, I'll be the first one.
NEVILLE: He did say it, Mike, but at that point he wasn't expecting Rick Reilly at that point to say, OK, since you said you'd be the -- you would be the first in line, if it were mandated by the MLB.
But now suddenly this guy Rick Reilly is saying, OK, so, do it today. And then it comes out of nowhere. And Sammy Sosa is like, What?
BELL: Sammy could say, You know what, I decline at this time. Talk to my agent.
But don't freak out on the guy, which is basically what he did.
NEVILLE: Oh, he was being prodded, come on.
BELL: Prodded?
NEVILLE: Rick Reilly...
BELL: Rick Reilly said, Would you like to do this now?
NEVILLE: ... Rick Reilly, he was prodding the guy. Come on now.
BELL: Oh, no.
NEVILLE: He's playing that game.
BELL: Let me ask you this, an as athlete, as a professional athlete...
NEVILLE: Wait, hold up. Who disagrees with what I just said?
I will come over there.
BELL: Thank you. I think -- Sammy Sosa, if anything, wouldn't you like to clear the air?
NEVILLE: I love it when they disagree with me. Stand up, Joseph (ph).
BELL: Wouldn't you like to clear the air, Sosa, and let the people know you're doing it by yourself with out drugs?
JOSEPH: I agree. I think that he wasn't being prodded. I think that this gave Sosa a chance to come forward and be the example and set the tone for other players to test themselves and show other people that you shouldn't be taking steroids while playing sports and to use your own talents to go against your opponent.
NEVILLE: OK, thanks Joseph (ph).
I have John from Nevada calling. Go ahead, John (ph).
JOHN: Listen, you know what? This sports writer is trying to make a name for himself. Sosa has been a good guy his whole career with people, with children, with donations to the Dominican Republic. Why are you trying to ruin this man? This sports writer is doing it for his self satisfaction and to make a name for himself. And that's what these guys do.
And I'm for Sosa. I used to be in Chicago. He's a good guy. Leave him alone. If you're going to do it...
NEVILLE: OK, Bob...
BELL: And by the way, I'm a Sammy Sosa fan. I'm a big Sammy Sosa fan. I love the energy, I love the enthusiasm he gives in this day of jaded multi-millionaires.
Rick Reilly make a name for himself? The guy writes for "Sports Illustrated," OK? The guy has broken the big stories. He's on TV. That is a joke. There is no argument that Rick Reilly is an established superstar as far as sport writers.
NEVILLE: Yes, but suddenly, now people who didn't know who Rick Reilly is, we know who he is now.
BELL: That's true.
NEVILLE: Anyway.
Brian.
BELL: These folks know now.
BRIAN: Rick Reilly is a respected artist in the sports world. And I do not think that he was trying to badger Sammy Sosa. I think he just asked Sammy Sosa a question. Sammy Sosa volunteered. He said he would be the first in line. And Rick Reilly said: "Look, if you want to do it, we can go do it. I know a place. You can get it tested in 10 days and we can have it done.
And Sammy Sosa denied it. And now Sammy Sosa looks like he has something to hide. And I know Sammy Sosa is a well-respected athlete and he's role model. And I do not think there is any room in baseball for steroids, because steroids make the average baseball player into superstars. And it is not fair to those athletes who work hard and put in time and work to get where they are. And if Sammy Sosa doesn't use steroids, then why did he have such a problem when Rick Reilly asked him the question?
NEVILLE: All right, very well put, sir, Brian. I like that.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Mike.
BELL: You know, that's great point.
Hank Aaron lives here in Atlanta, Georgia. We had Hank on the show the other day -- 755 home runs with good old-fashioned work ethic, good old-fashioned hitting the weights or eating right. Whatever Hank Aaron did to do it, he was not using steroids. If Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa someday surpasses Hank Aaron, I think there's a lot folks that are big baseball fans that are going to say, let's put an asterisk against that, because this is the steroid generation.
You have got guys who hit maybe 10 home runs the year before. After a season of training and using steroids, now these guys are hitting 30 home runs? This whole baseball right now, the entire baseball landscape has been affected by drugs. It's illegal. If any of us were holding it right now, we would go to the hooskow (ph). We would go to jail. And it's time for this thing to get cleaned up.
NEVILLE: The hooskow?
BELL: Yes, the hooskow.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: I never heard of that, the hooskow.
BELL: It's time for this thing to get cleaned up. It's time for the baseball fans to know, when the ball goes over the fence, the guy did it by himself and not by the help of steroids or drugs.
NEVILLE: All right, well, listen, I know -- thank you, Mike.
I have Nancy who is standing by on the phone. But, Nancy, I have to take a break right now. I will take your call when I come back, OK?
We'll have more on this Sosa vs. Reilly story. And later, George Michael talks to us live about his controversial new music video that he admits put him on dangerous ground. You won't want to miss it.
So, stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about steroids, baseball, Sammy Sosa, and a reporter from "Sports Illustrated," Rick Reilly.
Dori (ph) was saying something in the break.
DORI: Yes.
I think Sammy Sosa is all talk and he can't walk the walk. I think he just made those comments to ante up his image. If I was him and I was given a chance to prove myself, because my credibility was at stake, I would jump at the opportunity.
NEVILLE: Thank you, Dori, from Georgia.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Who is booing back there? Oh, wait a minute.
Kenny, you shouldn't boo a lady. Stand up and speak out, Kenny. Stand up for me.
KENNY: First of all, Sammy Sosa, it takes more than steroids to hit a baseball coming 90 miles an hour at you. I don't care how strong you are. If you don't have technique and timing, you can't hit the ball. So, you can be the strongest person in the world, pop as many steroids as you possibly can, but you can't hit a baseball.
I think this is another case of the media being sensationalist.
(APPLAUSE)
KENNY: I think that Rick Reilly -- Rick Reilly, I read his articles every day. I read his articles in "Sports Illustrated." I think he is a fine reporter. But, on this one, he set Sammy Sosa up.
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: Kenny, it's illegal, my man.
NEVILLE: You know what? Turnabout is fair play. Kenny, you booed a lady. A lady is booing you.
What are you saying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that it really doesn't matter as long as he is doing his job. I think that, also, if his credibility is on stake and you want to clear your name and you have the opportunity, why not? Just like Dori said, if you have the opportunity and it is given to you, why hide something?
BELL: And she is correct about that. In the eyes of Major League Baseball, it is not a banned substance. Now, there is something called Androstenedione that Mark McGwire -- that was brought up in his chase for the home run record, that he was using that. That maybe gave him an unfair advantage. And that is now a banned substance. But Major League Baseball, steroids technically is legal. Although it is illegal to have it on your possession here in the United States, baseball has not stepped up yet.
NEVILLE: OK, I want to go to Tonya now, who is calling from Nevada.
Go ahead, Tonya.
CALLER: Hi.
One of the problems that I am having with understanding this issue is the fact that steroids are not banned in the MLB. It is banned in the NFL and the NBA. I am wondering how come the MLB is late to join the ranks as far as testing?
BELL: They've got the stronger players union, actually. And the's one of things that -- you know, there might be a baseball strike this year. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that.
NEVILLE: Yes we are.
BELL: And one of the issues -- this is actually small by comparison with the other things they are going to tackle. But right now, with Donald Fehr and the Players Union, they do not have -- you don't have to be tested. That is one of the things that maybe won't even come up in the next bargaining agreement. It's just the unions are so strong. That is why it hasn't come up yet.
NEVILLE: All right, Clinton, what do you think about this?
CLINTON: Yes, hi, Arthel.
Just to respectfully disagree with what was previously said, I think for Sammy to get to that level, he had to have a degree of athletic ability. But now he has heightened athletic ability, illegally heightened athletic ability.
And my position is this. If you are going to open the gate, open it wide. Let's let footballs come in. Let's throw people in the head with balls, because they're illegal also. So either we are going to do it or we're not. If we are going to do it right, let's do it right. He got there on his ability. I think he should stay that way, with his own ability.
BELL: Althea, Clinton makes a good point.
NEVILLE: Mike, Mike, Mike.
BELL: Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in the world to do.
NEVILLE: Excuse me. Arthel.
BELL: Arthel. It is the hardest thing in the world to do.
(LAUGHTER)
BELL: Too many steroids in high school. It went right to the brain. But, no, it's right. Hitting a baseball is difficult. You got to have God-given talent. But think about this. How many home runs would Willie Mays have hit if he had these substances available? They might have -- 800 home runs might be the record. What if Babe Ruth could have cut down on the pizzas and popped some steroids? Would we have 1,000 home runs?
I just think that the baseball fans, the true, purest baseball fans want to know, when a guy is in the box, it is him vs. the pitcher mano-a-mano and there is no unfair advantage.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: So, what is his name, Ken Caminiti, right? He said recently that what, 50 percent, of baseball players are taking steroids?
BELL: That was his own guess. John Smoltz of the Atlanta Braves recently said he figures maybe 50 percent or two-thirds of the batters up there. John Smoltz was on our show, said that: "I am up there and you look at these guys. Well, that guy looks a whole lot different than last season."
Now, again, there is nothing to good old-fashioned hard work and elbow grease, getting up there and hitting the bench and hitting the weights. And a lot of guys have done that. But when you see a Barry Bonds and the physiological changes in his makeup, you don't get there all natural. There is no way, no way that happens all natural.
NEVILLE: OK, but, now, if they can't use steroids in basketball and in football, I know you mentioned the strong union of baseball. That is not fair. These other athletes can't take steroids and get away with it.
BELL: Well, the National Football League did it for a number of reasons. No. 1, they were concerned about the health of their players. They did a lot of research. They have had doctors look into this and say we might have an entire generation of football players that are going to have physiological problems when they get into their 50s.
Lyle Alzado is sort of the poster boy for steroid abuse. Now, I am not saying that Sammy Sosa is even in that level. Lyle Alzado abused steroids for almost a decade. But we just don't know all the research. You might have guys having problems with their heart, problems with cancer. There's so many things that can stem from the abuse of steroids. You might have all these players having these problems. The NFL stepped up. Baseball has not.
NEVILLE: All right, I have Rojan (ph) here.
ROJAN: As a fellow athlete in a high school and stuff, we are subject to random drug tests. And we look up to Sammy and those guys as, like, idols. So, wouldn't it set a good example if he just took the drug test? Why would he have anything to hide if he just took it today or tomorrow? What's the difference? NEVILLE: What do you play, Rojan?
ROJAN: I'm a tennis player.
NEVILLE: Oh, you play tennis. See, I was going to go ahead and put you in basketball.
ROJAN: Thanks.
NEVILLE: All right, thanks, Rojan.
All right, Mike Bell, thanks to you as well.
BELL: Thank you, Barbara.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: OK, John, all right.
Listen, musician George Michael is standing by to defend his controversial new video. You don't want to miss this conversation. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
Up next: George Michael's "Shoot the Dog" video takes a shot at America's response to September 11. He says he hopes it will make people laugh and dance. We'll see what it makes you want to do right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody.
George Michael is defending his music video "Shoot the Dog." In it, he gooses the queen, hops into bed with the prime minister's wife, and portrays Tony Blair as George Bush's lapdog. He also criticizes the U.S.' response to September 11.
Let's take a look.
OK, the video gets a little bit more risque than that. But, anyway, George Michael is in Europe and joins us now on the phone.
We want welcome you to TALKBACK LIVE, sir.
GEORGE MICHAEL, MUSICIAN: Hi, Arthel. Nice to meet you. Nice to talk to you.
NEVILLE: Same here.
Listen, this is clearly satire. What message were you trying to portray in the song?
MICHAEL: Well, I think, before I even give you the message that I am trying to portray, I have to actually tell you that there is no message whatsoever that criticizes the U.S.' response to the al Qaeda attack. This song is really about a current situation, which is the possible bombing of Iraq. I would never criticize America for its response after September 11. I think its response was perfectly natural and acceptable.
But, really, the criticism within this track is of Mr. Blair for not involving the British public in any discussion on the possible bombing of Iraq. And the fact that the satire makes fun of President Bush is more to do with the fact that the British don't have a great deal of confidence in President Bush, or many of us don't. The fact that he is the American president is relevant, of course. But it is really not intended as an attack either on the response to al Qaeda or on the American system in general.
NEVILLE: OK, hang on for me, George Michael, because I want to go ahead and put up some of your lyrics on the screen.
It says: "Nine, nine, nine, gettin' jiggy. People, did you see that fire in the city? It's like we're fresh out of democratic. Got to get yourself a little something semiautomatic. Yes."
So, what does that mean?
MICHAEL: Well, really, the criticism there is of the attack itself.
The line is -- actually, I'll be completely honest. This was a song that I was recording in September last year. It was a song trying to describe the danger that was evolving between what I would call the secular Western world, relatively secular Western world, and the fundamentalist factions within the Middle East.
The line about -- what I am basically saying there is that they -- that -- well, al Qaeda is obviously the subject, that they took the law into their own hands, that democracy was not a part of it. I don't think that should be misconstrued as some kind of criticism. It's a reference to what happened, and saying that, basically, things are going crazy.
NEVILLE: And so your idea here was to go ahead and have your song be a catalyst for a political debate.
MICHAEL: In Britain principally, yes.
I think it should be remembered that it was never intended to be released in America, because I simply think that would have been -- well, apart from bad timing, it would have been disrespectful. And it was never intended for release in America. It will not be released as a single in America. I don't have -- I have not even decided on my record company for worldwide release.
The fact that it is released in Europe is because, for the first time, an artist is being released by a record company without a record contract. So, nothing has been decided for America. There was no plan to release it in your country. And I think it would have been disrespectful to make this issue in a country which obviously has suffered much loss, and very recently. This was absolutely an attack on Tony Blair, principally, and the perspective which is really predominant in Europe right now, that he is not questioning enough of Mr. Bush's policy. Now, of course, this has changed this week. But since September 11, there has not seemed to be any discrepancy between Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair's views. And many people are -- as I am sure many Democrats in the states -- are not exactly thrilled that Mr. Bush is the man in control right now.
NEVILLE: Let me get back to something you said earlier, that -- you said that this was not intended to be released in the U.S. It isn't now. Probably it won't be released here. But you are a...
MICHAEL: I would never have contemplated releasing this track with this subject matter at this time or any time in the immediate future, as a single for sure.
NEVILLE: But all I am saying, though, you are popular here as well. So does it surprise you, though, that it got over here?
MICHAEL: Well, it doesn't surprised me that it got over here. The manner in which it got over there -- which is, strangely enough, both the competitor of the tabloid that I spoke to and supported in this country over this issue, which actually shares my view. Its rival paper is another Rupert Murdoch paper called "The Sun." And I have a great suspicion that it was actually "The Sun" that called "The New York Post" and said, "Look, blast this guy," which is what they did, libelously and extremely salaciously.
And, yes, I am surprised at this reaction. I am surprised that "The New York Post" thought they could go that far and misrepresent me to the degree that they implied that I am actually a sympathizer of al Qaeda, which, apart from anything else, puts my life in danger.
NEVILLE: Bottom line: You were not being anti-American. You were criticizing...
MICHAEL: I was anti-Bush, absolutely not anti-American.
NEVILLE: Criticizing Mr. Bush, Criticizing Mr. Blair, but not anti-American.
MICHAEL: It's anti-Mr. Blair and anti-Mr. Blair's reluctance to challenge Bush. It is not anti-American in any sense. And I have to be -- to put it very plainly, I would consider myself -- I would say I have been in love five times in my life. And three times -- one of them is currently -- I have a 6-year relationship with a man from Texas. And it's going strong. If I hate Americans, then I am a glutton for punishment, because I seem to fall in love with them all the time.
NEVILLE: Because Americans are great.
(LAUGHTER)
MICHAEL: Absolutely. NEVILLE: Hey, George Michael, listen, let me ask you this. I am going to put you on the spot a little bit here -- and letting everybody know that. You don't have to agree to this, but I am wondering, if you wouldn't mind -- you have got a lot of fans here in the audience -- I am wondering if you would be willing to take a couple of questions.
MICHAEL: Absolutely. Absolutely. I would be more than delighted, yes.
NEVILLE: OK.
Then I am going to ask you to stand by for me. I have to take a break.
And you at home, stand by. We'll be back on the other side with George Michael.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Stand up, though, for me, Amanda. Yes, you have to stand up here, because you know how we do it on TALKBACK LIVE. We continue the conversation during the break. Amanda had some interesting things to say.
We have George Michael standing by on the phone with us in Europe. We are talking about his latest video, "Shoot the Dog."
And, Amanda, you had what to say?
AMANDA: Oh, I was saying that I do not think it was against America. It was more focused on Bush and Blair, like he wanted it to be. And him not releasing it in America was a good decision, because it was, like, we went through the tragedy. And, of course, we wouldn't find it tasteful because of what happened. But you have to think he has a right to his own opinion.
NEVILLE: George Michael, I know you are listening. So, any time you want to jump in here, feel free.
MICHAEL: Who am I speaking to, by the way?
NEVILLE: You're talking to Amanda right now.
MICHAEL: Oh, hi, Amanda. How you doing?
Well, I think, absolutely, I would agree with that point. I think that satire is used for political purposes all the time. But, obviously, there's a time and a place. And I really, really -- I have never really -- until this whole issue in "The New York Post" came up, I wouldn't even have wanted the video shown. I was hoping that there wouldn't be too much fuss.
But, at the end of the day...
(PHONE RINGING) MICHAEL: I'm sorry. There's a phone ringing in here.
NEVILLE: You are so popular. You've got all those phone calls coming in.
MICHAEL: I know. I'm so popular.
NEVILLE: I'll tell you what. If you'll hang on for me, George Michael, because I have Tara, who is calling in from Canada right now, who would like to say something.
Go ahead, Tara.
CALLER: Hey, George.
MICHAEL: Hi.
CALLER: Congratulations on speaking your mind.
MICHAEL: Thank you, Tara. Thank you.
I think it is -- in the current climate, it can be very difficult to speak your mind. But sometimes, when I think -- I believe we are all in danger. And I think this discussion needs to be widened.
CALLER: I think -- I hope you release this in Canada.
MICHAEL: Well, I don't know. I would have to see how people felt about that in Canada. This was really aimed at widening the discussion in Britain. And I think there are other people that are doing the same thing in Britain. But, of course, when somebody who is really bang in the middle of the mainstream says something like this, it kind of gets more attention, which is why I chose to do it.
I must admit, I was very nervous to do it. But sometimes I think you have to go with your instincts and go with what your heart is telling you.
NEVILLE: OK, I have Leah from Florida here.
LEAH: Yes.
And you can't tell me that you did not intend to slam our country when you slam our president. By portraying him going to bed with your prime minister, you slam our country. And people can say that we do it ourselves, but excuse me. You can talk about your own family, but I'll be danged if I am going to let somebody else step in from the outside and talk about them.
MICHAEL: Well, I...
(CHEERING)
(BOOS)
NEVILLE: OK, but I have -- George Michael, before you respond -- George Michael, before you respond, I want to let know that we have some mixed reaction here in the audience. We had a lot of people who were booing what Leah had to say, as well as cheering.
But Chris over here is -- oh, George, you know what? I am running out of time, so I am going to let you respond before we go.
Go ahead, George.
MICHAEL: I would like to -- I understand how volatile people feel about this. I understand totally that, at a time like this, there is a lot of support for the president. And, really, even though I do not have a great deal of belief in President Bush, I think, in all honesty, that it was not intended to offend Americans. And I think there are many Americans that probably share my view that there are people with less personal interests in this particular issue. And don't let us forget that.
NEVILLE: George Michael, thank you for coming to TALKBACK LIVE. Thank you for getting your...
MICHAEL: Thank you. Thank you.
NEVILLE: I think you got your point across, OK?
MICHAEL: Thank you very much.
NEVILLE: All right, we are out of time.
I am going to be off for the holidays tomorrow and Friday. But CNN's Carol Lin will fill in for me. I'll see you again on Monday.
I'm Arthel Neville. Have a great Fourth of July. And be safe.
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Sammy Sosa's Outburst Raises Questions; Rocker's Video Lampoons Tony Blair>
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