|
 |
DIPLOMATIC LICENSE
Iraq, U.N. Hold Weapons Inspections Discussions; U.S. Threatens to Block U.N. Peacekeeping Missions
Aired July 6, 2002 - 04:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The weapons inspectors' issue resolved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, HOST: There's an old saying which goes the third time's the charm. There's also an old saying which says three strikes and you're out. Iraq at the United Nations held their round of discussions here in Vienna.
Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth here in Austria. The big question hovering over these talks -- would Iraq permit weapons inspectors back inside the country?
It didn't take long for the suspense to end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, SECRETARY-GENERAL, UNITED NATIONS: Well, they haven't said yes yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: There was a delegation from Iraq, and once again Baghdad failed to say yes to the return of international weapons inspectors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNAN: There has been some movement, obviously not enough. I would have preferred to move further.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Two more days of talks and bonding among diplomats, but this did not turn out to be what the secretary-general vowed, the decisive round. The Iraqis insisted the U.S. and the entire Security Council violate international law against Iraq. The foreign minister also charged a regional double standard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is unfair and unpractical and we do not accept that Iraq is deprived of the right to import one pistol while Israel has the biggest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in the region.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Even continuing reports of a U.S. plan for a large-scale invasion of Iraq did not spur the Iraqis to allow inspectors into the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hear a lot of rubbish about these plans. These are wishes entertained by all colonists and able people.
ANNAN: I'm not sure if the U.S. has taken a decision to attack or not and so I'm not here to stop an attack. I'm here to get the inspector seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Frustrated by the lack of progress, the U.N. said no when Iraq asked for another date with the secretary-general. So basically the United Nations is not going to produce Secretary-General Annan for the Iraqis and further talks until there is some advancement on Baghdad side.
With me now are two journalists based at the United Nations who are covering these talks. Carola Hoyos of "The Financial Times" and Talal Al- Haj of the Abu Dhabi television network. Thank you both for joining us. What do you think of the results of these talks?
CAROLA HOYOS, FINANCIAL TIMES: Terribly disappointing especially for the United Nations. I think that signaled by the fact that only technical discussions will continue, but there's been no date set nor has there been a time -- a place set -- excuse me -- for further discussions between Kofi Annan and the foreign minister of Iraq.
ROTH: Were you surprised at this outcome Talal?
TALAL AL-HAJ, ABU DHABI TV: No I wasn't surprised. There was a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) group on the day one, actually, and Fred Eckhard ...
ROTH: The U.N. spokesman ...
AL-HAJ: ... the U.N. spokesman has put it into words saying he wasn't optimistic when I asked him if he was. So I wasn't surprised, but what surprised me is why we're here because the Iraqis want answers for their questions. They are forcing the United Nations to Security Council. Kofi Annan didn't have a mandate to answer the questions. They wanted a complete package, a complete solution for the problems. We knew we're not getting it, what were we doing, I don't know, maybe just gaining time.
ROTH: And there was more from the Iraqi government, we want lifting of sanctions. We want an end to the no fly zone. I mean, it's kind of deja vu groundhog day in 1990 Gulf War. Is this going anywhere?
HOYOS: It doesn't look like it. I think the urgency is in the threat of the U.S. to invade Iraq and that threat has subsided somewhat. I know we had "The New York Times" report recently that in -- on the whole I don't think Iraq is looking at the possibility of an invasion before January as we have heard coming out Washington and that's what slowed things down.
ROTH: And, Talal, it seems like officials in Baghdad have it timed and calibrated perfectly. They seem to know when to dialogue when the threat level goes up, and then they take back when it looks like President Bush is all talk, no action.
AL-HAJ: I think the word is (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They always done that in the past, and I think they'll do it again. I expected them this time around to come up with something actually, but I can understand the position they're in. They want something -- the light at the end of the tunnel. They want something for their trouble and they're not getting it. So we are in a round circle really.
ROTH: The only progress was reported on Kuwait's national archives to be returned and there was a hint that the next time it would be missing persons. But how -- will this be enough to stall a military attack?
HOYOS: I don't think so, but we're still pretty far away from that. It might be enough so that the secretary-general can come back at a later date and reignite the discussions, but for now we're going to lie dormant for a while ...
AL-HAJ: I'm not so sure actually we're so far away from it. I think this time the attack will come in a surprised way, not like the previous attacks. We don't know exactly. It's not going to be signaled like miles away. They're not going to start, you know, the Iraqis every time knew more or the date even to the hour. So I think this time the administration is trying to surprise the Iraqis. I don't know when it's going to happen, but I think we will not be able to predict it like before (UNINTELLIGIBLE) before.
ROTH: They didn't want to call this a failure, though, these talks here. Nobody used that word.
AL-HAJ: Nobody used the word failure, but we all know what they're talking about. When Kofi Annan said some movement has been achieved, but it's not enough, I mean that -- he didn't even say some progress. He said some movement. So that really signals failure.
ROTH: The foreign minister, though, seemed to get along better with the secretary-general. The atmosphere seems to be improving. They say good body language. What does it all mean?
HOYOS: But didn't you notice, Richard, that they didn't appear together. There were two podiums for the two to stand on, but very tellingly Kofi Annan took the floor first and only later the foreign minister came. So I think I took that as a signal of relatively cool relations ...
AL-HAJ: I think you also have to realize, I think there is a personal liking between the two men. I know that for a fact, but the thing is that, the fact that they didn't come out the same time it signaled failure.
ROTH: Now secretary-general high aide will tell the Security Council probably Monday just what happened here. How do you think it's going to play back in New York?
HOYOS: I think very quietly. I don't think the U.S. wants to be seen as stalling diplomatic or stopping diplomatic discussions, especially as its European allies really want this to go through. So we'll have a very short briefing and they'll hope for the fewest headlines possible.
ROTH: In the Arab world, is there going to be pressure on Iraq to let these inspectors in or once again people want to see what the U.S. government really means when it talks about their plans ...
AL-HAJ: There's a lot of sympathy with the Iraqi people, especially the fight with children and women under the sanctions. Don't forget Iraq and the foreign secretary has mentioned it lost more than a million and a half persons (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sanctions especially children, you know and there's a lot of sympathy with them, the Iraqis. Iraq has been conducting a policy of open -- opening up to Arab countries, trying to take the initiative from the Americans.
They have improved the relations with the Saudis. They're going to open the passageway between Iraq and Saudi Arabia. There'll be more goods between the countries. They have good trade with Syria, with Jordan, with Turkey even, which just expanded -- extended the mandate for the American and British air flights. So there is a lot of sympathy with the Iraqis and lot of blame is, not blame maybe, but finger pointers at the American role in this.
ROTH: Is the Council still united on Iraq?
HOYOS: No. You know what they're united about is not talking about Iraq because they don't want to show that they're deeply divided about this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but none of the allies of the U.S. in this war on terrorism do back them at this point and of war on Iraq. They think it's a very bad idea.
ROTH: So what comes next now? Is this issue going to be back and forth going nowhere for months up until a potential attack?
AL-HAJ: Well you know as well as I do that Kofi Annan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) decisive before he came here from New York. I mean we asked him many times is this decisive? Is this -- and he smiles and he says nothing. I think Kofi Annan and the foreign minister, they want to keep the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) going. They want to find a solution. They want to avert what many people expect an American military action against Iraq. I think that when we go from here nothing was declared, nothing was scheduled for a meeting. But I think the Iraqis will do their utmost to reach some sort of accommodation with the United Nations.
HOYOS: I think the Iraqis are watching the U.S. very carefully and it's almost the U.S.'s next move. They'll watch -- yes there might be a surprise, but it won't be that much of a surprise. It'll have to be a big ...
AL-HAJ: Buildup.
HOYOS: ... deployment and buildup of troops so let's start watching for that.
ROTH: Carola Hoyos of "The Financial Times" based at the United Nations here covering the Iraqi-U.N. talks in Vienna. Thank you very much.
HOYOS: Thank you.
ROTH: And Talal Al-Haj of the Abu Dhabi television network, thank you, both of you on for your debut performance here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.
AL-HAJ: Thank you, Richard.
ROTH: Well, here in Vienna, Austria, the Iraq-U.N. talk certainly with a big show. It was 6:00 local time here in Vienna on a Friday night and the gallery was packed overlooking the U.N. secretary-general and Iraq's foreign minister.
More on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE coming right up from Vienna, Austria.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As the United States works to bring peace around the world, our diplomats and our soldiers could be drug into this court and that's very troubling to me, and we'll try to work out the impasse at the United Nations, but one thing we're not going to do is sign onto the International Criminal Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The United States of America celebrated its Independence Day this week, but there was a birthday of a different kind three days earlier, which the United States was not exactly ready to shoot off fireworks for. The ICC, the International Criminal Court came into effect, though it's months away from trying any cases.
The United States does not like this court. This is nothing new. But what is different is a new threat, a looming threat by the United States to block future and renewed peacekeeping efforts by the United Nations, peacekeeping missions that the United States fears its military personnel somehow might end up in front of this new International Criminal Court.
DIPLOMATIC LICENSE's Brian Palmer checks out the story at the U.N.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Security Council voted unanimously to extend the mandate of the U.N. mission in Bosnia- Herzegovina. This is the third such extension that has been passed over the past couple of weeks. Now the U.N. mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina is one issue on the table. The other issue is the International Criminal Court.
The United States on Sunday vetoed the -- what would have been a routine renewal of the Bosnia mandate in order to oppose the International Criminal Court, which went into effect on Monday. The U.S. saying that no international court should have jurisdiction over United States service members.
Now after the vote, both the U.S. ambassador and the U.K. ambassador spoke to the press.
JEREMY GREENSTOCK, BRITISH AMB. TO U.N.: There were a number of elements in the minds of a majority of members of the Council, which led them to believe that further time on this question would be necessary.
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: It's been an uphill fight in terms of gaining understanding and acceptance for the point of view that we've been putting forward, but I think that the other delegations, a number of them have commented how they saw movement in our position and in the several drafts that we've put forward and also indicated an interest in continuing the discussions.
PALMER: But as the talk drags on, other U.N. peacekeeping missions could fall victim to the standoff over the International Criminal Court. Several missions come up for renewal in the month of July. Critics of the U.S. fear for the future of peacekeeping.
JOHN RUGGIE, FMR. U.N. ASST. SECY-GEN: The United States is fully entitled not to want to join the International Criminal Court and indeed to oppose it. The problem here is not U.S. opposition to the International Criminal Court, but the fact that U.N. peacekeeping has been hijacked as a tool to express America's opposition to the International Criminal Court.
PALMER: The U.N. Security Council faces another deadline on the issue July 15.
For DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, Brian Palmer at the United Nations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: Brian, though you can't hear me, thank you.
Well, we've asked Carola Hoyos of "The Financial Times" to stay with us here to discuss this International Criminal Court bombshell issue. July 15 is coming up fast. Also coming up fast from his perch at the United Nations is James Bone of the "Times of London". Hello, James. What's the latest on the International Court dispute involving the United States and some of its allies inside the Council?
JAMES BONE, TIMES OF LONDON: Well, Richard, there are two issues. They're both very complicated. One is the U.N. mission in Bosnia. The other is the U.S. rejecting the International Criminal Court and they're meshing in this row, and what's happening is the U.S. is insisting that its peacekeepers that serve with this police training operation in Bosnia be granted immunity.
Now there is a compromise emerging here in New York that is angering a lot of countries who are not on the Security Council. The compromise seems to be to use a loophole in the Rome treaty that established the court to exempt from the start American peacekeepers serving in the Bosnia operation and presumably in other operations when the -- when they are also renewed. A lot of other countries who are not on the Security Council don't have any say in this row, particularly Canada have been meeting here and want a open meeting of the Security Council to protest against this if this is a compromise that emerges.
ROTH: Carola, how do you see this playing out? Because the United States seems very determined.
HOYOS: That's right. I think it'll continue to be determined about this and every time a peacekeeping mission comes up for extension, we'll hear more about the ICC. It's interesting that James talks about these other countries that are worried about this. They, too, also have troops that could be in the line of fire, but they don't seem to have the same problems as the U.S. in this case.
BONE: Well, I mean the ...
ROTH: Secretary-General Annan worked the phones here in Vienna all day. His main issue, though, seemed to be Iraq, but it really wasn't. It was this court -- James.
BONE: Well, Kofi Annan wrote a letter to Colin Powell, the U.S. secretary of state in which he was saying it's ridiculous to think American peacekeepers in Bosnia are going to commit serious and systemic war crimes is what you need to come before this court. I mean these people aren't even armed, so it's an absurd idea. It's a theoretical problem. That's what's going on.
What actually by coincidence two floors below where the Security Council meets in U.N. headquarters, there is a meeting of the Preparatory Commission of this new court where lots of states, which are strong supports of the court avoid making their views known and it's like a football match atmosphere down there, rowdy atmosphere. One speaker after the other denouncing the Security Council for even considering compromising with the Americans.
ROTH: Carola, the United States said it needed everybody on board against terrorism. It had a lot of world sympathy after September 11. It seems to have evaporated now.
HOYOS: No, there are several issues including the Kyoto protocol on the environment and this issue in particular is really trying the patience of its most -- its closest allies especially the Europeans. The U.K. and France have really stood tall on this and they've had to because every single European Union member has ratified the court and very much supports it. I wanted to throw something back at James, and I'm wondering whether this is really about peacekeeping at all or whether this is about a fundamental problem that the U.S. has with this kind of treaty, with the U.N. or treaty like this having jurisdiction over the sovereignty of the United States. What do you think, James?
BONE: Well, of course it is about the American conservatives rejecting any impingement on American sovereignty, in particular any suggestion of world government and of course this court is a step towards some kind of international justice that some might consider world government. But it's also about keeping Donald Rumsfeld, the defense secretary, out of an international jail should he commit any supposed war crimes in invading Iraq.
And the problem the Americans have is that in a year's time or two- years' time, Donald Rumsfeld might be taking a holiday in the south of France and someone might decide it's a good idea to arrest him and charge him with even spurious war crimes under this International Criminal Court, so you know more than the American servicemen serving abroad. It's what happens to former American officials.
That's a big issue and remember there's still this very lively controversy about Henry Kissinger's role during the Vietnam War and people still accuse Henry Kissinger of committing war crimes and ordering the bombing of the Ho Chi Minh Trail and going across into Cambodia, and if that were repeated now, according to that jurisdiction of that time, Henry Kissinger's travel plans might have to be changed just to make sure he didn't get into any unfortunate stripes with overzealous states that might want to prosecute him.
ROTH: Well, the Bosnians are feeling the heat right now. Who's next, James? You have a lot of peacekeeping missions that ...
BONE: You have a lot ...
ROTH: ... need renewal ...
BONE: ... the big one ...
ROTH: ... it used to be a standard procedure 15 hands in the air and everybody would file out of the room.
BONE: ... the big one coming up, Richard, is Lebanon. It's almost impossible to imagine the Americans would want to pull the plug on the U.N. operation in Lebanon, UNIFIL. They don't actually have any personnel there, so they may use that as an excuse if the row is still going on. As I say, I expect it to be settled before Lebanon comes up for renewal at the end of the month, but the stakes are pretty high if it isn't settled.
ROTH: The U.S. says there's a double standard, that European nations have had exemption from international Bosnian court prosecutions when they've gone in before. Is that true?
BONE: Well, I mean, the United States if it had become, if it had wanted to could have entered a reservation to the Rome statute the way that France did delaying jurisdiction of the court over its people. It can -- it still is entitled to reach status it forces agreements with the countries that host its troops, exempting them from being turned over to the International Criminal Tribunal.
There are many legal avenues that the United States can pursue to protect its personnel and in fact the big breakthrough and I think it's important that people understand this, the Americans have actually since their veto capitulated quite a long way. I mean, at the time of the veto they wanted immunity from the court. Now they are talking about using a loophole of the Rome statute within the framework of the treaty, a treaty that they renounced. That's a big breakthrough for the Europeans and that's why I think it's going to be settled.
ROTH: Carola, the United States is really behind this drive, you think behind the scenes.
HOYOS: Three very important people with whom the Europeans and actually Kofi Annan have very little contact -- Rumsfeld, John Bolton and Condoleezza Rice. That's a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that is very hard to beat.
ROTH: OK, Carola Hoyos, "The Financial Times," thank you for being here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, even though we thanked you earlier in the program and James Bone of the "Times of London," always a guest on our program. Carola and James both mentioned Donald Rumsfeld. Well, the U.S. top defense chief says Uncle Sam despite all of this controversy is not ready to pull up stakes and head home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It would be inaccurate to say that the United States would necessarily withdraw from every engagement we're -- we have in the world between now and the time that that immunity is provided. We have no plans to do that. In other words, we're engaged. We have forces in countries all over the globe. We have no intention of pulling back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know everybody's worried about terrorism, but I think one of the biggest threats we face is probably a flyer in this complex, nothing to do with terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Aftermath of an unprecedented drill back in New York. Here in Vienna, flags of the world hanging inside the complex. There are 4,000 staff members working here. They practice fire drills occasionally, but in New York about two weeks ago in response to terrorism threats and 9/11, something quite different was practiced.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH (voice-over): A typically quiet Sunday morning on New York's east side, but that will change because of what's happening at the headquarters of the United Nations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) control, Charlie control, be advised just got a call from a staff member reporting she heard what she thinks is an explosion and she's smelling smoke.
ROTH: It's the first every full-simulated fire drill at the U.N.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, so don't take it off. Don't take it off. Leave it alone.
ROTH: It's the fire department with the highest clearance of all security agencies in New York to gain access to U.N. grounds, which in effect is international territory.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTH (on camera): The drill includes a fire that would have erupted here on the 26th floor of the Secretariat tower at the United Nations. Theatrical smoke used in this case, but for the real deal it would be quite a different story.
MICHAEL MCCANN, CHIEF OF U.N. SECURITY: This is an old building. The sprinkler system does not exist above the basement floors. We have difficulties with the pubic address system that have been corrected.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ask you calmly, evacuate this building.
ROTH (voice over): But without September 11, this drill probably does not occur.
CLARENCE CLARKE, SENIOR U.N. FIRE OFFICER: The main idea is to save as many lives as we possibly can and we only can do that by being prepared for whatever might come down the pipe.
ROTH: The U.N. has been on terrorists' wish list before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels like the other ground zero here or another potential. I don't want to knock on wood, but yes.
ROTH: Watching firemen enter the skyscraper lobby and go upstairs is a reminder of last summer's nightmare.
JAMES WENDLING, N.Y. FIRE BATTALION CMDRE: Yes they'll still do the same and we're trying to observe all conditions that might be an indication of something more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And turn it back on and see if they can isolate it and give us water.
ROTH: Drilling on a Sunday does not replicate workweek conditions, but both the U.N. and the fire department seem pleased with initial results. Coming soon, another round of evacuation tests.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: Well, I have to evacuate Vienna, Austria where two days of talks are over between Iraq and the United Nations, whether it's the last waltz, unknown.
For DIPLOMATIC LICENSE in Vienna, Austria I'm Richard Roth. Thanks for watching.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
|
|
|
|
|
