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CNN Talkback Live

Police Tape Sparks Outrage; Is Bush Tough Enough on Corporate Crooks?

Aired July 09, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. Two big stories today, the Inglewood police are under fire and so is corporate America. President Bush is putting big business on notice. He's calling for tougher penalties and more responsibility from America's CEOs. Do you think it's enough?

Now to answer that question, go ahead and give me a call at 1- 800-310-4CNN, or e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com. We'll talk about that in a few minutes, but we're going to start today with that shocking tape from California.

A 16-year-old boy was shoved against a -- ouch -- I'm sorry. Every time I see this, I wince. He was shoved against a police car and punched by police at a gas station in Inglewood. Now police say the teen lunged at an officer, but his attorney said that the attack was unprovoked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE HOPKINS, DONOVAN'S ATTORNEY: Donovan took the worst beating before the tape ever began to run, and if you take a look at that tape again, you can see the kid is barely conscious. He's completely out of it by the time his head is slammed onto that car, and by the time that officer punches him again, he ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At night time he's scared to go to sleep by himself at night. We wake up -- like screaming, he's scared of the police now. He's scared to go outside by himself. He's frightened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: OK, now one of the officers was suspended with pay. The others are still on duty, and for the latest on this story, let's bring in CNN's Thelma Gutierrez in Los Angeles. And Thelma, what do we know about what happened to Donovan Chavis?

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Arthel, as you take a look at some of that videotape, there's not a lot of guesswork there, at least from the time that the photographer starts to shoot. The real question, as you had raised, is what happened before all of this? What provoked this altercation? Now the police say, as you had mentioned, that Donovan had lunged at them, and so that there was some kind of a struggle beforehand, but as the attorney said and as Koby Chavis (ph) says, who is Donovan's father, the two had stopped to get gas. They say that the officers started to beat up on Donovan.

But that's their side of the story. Again, there is a videotape that was shot. It was a surveillance tape from the Thrifty Gas Station where all of this took place, and that tape is in the custody of the sheriff's department. And so it'll be interesting to see exactly what led up to it, what sparked it. But the real question is that you have a teenager, a 16-year-old boy who's in handcuffs, and then, all of a sudden, he's lifted up by the collar, by the belt, slammed down onto the car, and then seconds later you see Officer Jeremy Morse, who's a three-year veteran of the force, actually take a punch at him.

So you know, was it excessive force? Well, here you have ...

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Thelma, we're showing a still photo now. I mean this guy's face, Jeremy Morse's face is just, I mean contorted like he's some -- I don't know. Well, let me ask you this. I know his family says that one of the officers, Donovan's family says one of the officers made racial slurs. Do you think or do authorities think that this is - was racially motivated in any way?

GUTIERREZ: Well, that's a good question, Arthel. Now yesterday during the news conference that question was raised. Authorities would not touch that one at all. They say they wouldn't comment because there is a pending investigation. But if you look at the tape, you notice that there is a Latino on the tape, a, officer, you see an African American officer, so I guess you can draw your own conclusions on that one. But authorities would not go into the racial question.

NEVILLE: Oh, I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, I'm just reacting. Excuse me, but I just saw that for the first time, that part of it. Listen, you mentioned the other tape, Thelma, the surveillance tape that was at the gas station. Have reporters had a chance to look at that tape yet?

GUTIERREZ: No, Arthel, that tape has not been released. Again, it's in the custody of the sheriff's department and in fact, the photographer, who shot the tape, the amateur photographer, who was at the hotel shooting this tape, says that after he shot it, shortly after, again this is his side of the story, that he says that he had seven sheriff's deputies come up, knock on the doors of the hotel, and he believes they were trying to get their hands on that tape.

NEVILLE: Right. Thelma, hang on for me a second. I just want to get a little audience reaction here right now -- Emmanuel (ph) from Maryland.

EMMANUEL: Yes, what I see on that tape is pure anger. Even if you don't want to go racial, it was an officer who may have been hit earlier, but he then became premeditated in his actions because any time you hit someone or get hit and then you hit back, they always say it's premeditated. So what he did was premeditated and he really wanted to hurt that guy personally, not because of the incident as far as locking someone up.

NEVILLE: Thanks, Emmanuel (ph), for standing up and speaking out.

Hey listen, Thelma, hang on for me. I need to go ahead and talk to Kyra Phillips, who's standing by the newsroom -- Kyra.

(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. We are talking about that very disturbing video of Inglewood police beating 16-year-old Donovan Chavis, and joining us now to discuss it, Joe Madison. He is the founder of Enough is Enough, an organization that fights police brutality, and a talkshow host with Radio One, an XM (ph) radio - is that right Joe?

JOE MADISON, FOUNDER, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH: That's right. You got it all in.

NEVILLE: All right. Welcome.

MADISON: Thank you.

NEVILLE: And Gerald Kelly. He is a retired New York police detective and author of a book about corruption on the force, and welcome to you as well, sir.

GERALD KELLY, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE DETECTIVE: Nice to talk to you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, listen. Mr. Kelly, I'm going to go ahead and begin with you.

As a former police officer, what is your response to this videotape?

KELLY: Well, first of all, I just want to come here -- first of all, I am not an advocate for police brutality. And it just seems so, that it is going to be taken an issue I am for it or somebody is for it and against it.

In your lead into the story, before we were interrupted by the president, the lady did point out that there is another tape that is available. And I would like to see what that tape is all about. And even though this is a video and it that takes in 10 or 20 or 30 seconds of what has happened, this incident must have been maybe 20 minutes, 10 minutes.

And, in essence, that is really still kind of a snapshot. And I do believe, if we have that other camera available, it will show a lot more and what really happened here to get to the situation where it appeared something might have happened that was inappropriate.

NEVILLE: Right. But, Gerald, hold on for me for a second, because, during the break, we were talking about all of this.

And, Ethel, you made an interesting comment about police officers and their emotions.

ETHEL: Right.

My point was that I assume that officers are trained to keep their emotions under control. And from looking at this tape, it just seems like there is a lot of anger there and a lot of angry emotions being shown when -- especially after hitting a gentleman when he has been handcuffed. I just don't see any rational behavior going on here, when these men are trained to remain rational in every circumstance.

NEVILLE: And, Joe, so what exactly could have happened before this videotape that would provoke the officer to go ahead and slam this boy down when he's in handcuffs?

MADISON: It is immaterial, whatever it was, short of maybe taking an uzi and trying to blow up the filling station. I think everyone can see that he was subdued. He clearly was not resisting. Officers are trained. I talked to several of them today on my radio show who said they were outraged, because you cannot retaliate in the manner that they did, even if he was resisting arrest.

Now, keep in mind, there's not only a videotape, but there are eyewitnesses, people who were standing there watching the commotion, and who I am certain will be interviewed by the courts or the police. And, hopefully, the feds will get in on this. But there is no excuse for this. And the sad thing is that this type of thing goes on quite a lot.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Excuse me, Joe.

MADISON: Yes?

KELLY: You have already said there were eyewitnesses there and you want to hear from them. But it appears that you think the eyewitnesses have already indicted the cops, or are going to say what you think your thinking might be.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Joe, Joe, Joe, it is not so cut and dry that you can just look at that picture and say what the whole circumstances that transpired that day were.

(CROSSTALK) MADISON: What difference does it make? Now, I am trying to be very polite about this. But let me tell you one thing. What difference does it make...

(CROSSTALK)

MADISON: I'm speaking. Please let me finish.

What difference does it make, when that man, that young 16-year- old was subdued? He was handcuffed. There is no justification in slamming him on the trunk of that car and then hitting him with a clenched fist.

KELLY: Joe, I'm not saying there's any justification for him. We don't know what...

NEVILLE: You know what? Hang on one second for me. You know what? I've got Fred here.

Excuse me one second, Gerald. I'm sorry.

But Fred here has something to say.

FRED: Well, I am appalled. And I think just about everybody else is here. And with all the professional police officers across the country, they are going to be appalled, too, because I don't think it matters what preceded. The minute that man was subdued -- and from everything that it shows in this video, this man was subdued. They had him in cuffs. We can't tell whether he was resisting when they slammed him on the hood or not. But that punch came from nowhere. There was no need for that punch.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

MADISON: And you can tell he was not resisting, because he was picked up.

You know what? It's very interesting. If this had been a pet, a pet dog, and that officer had slammed that dog down on that hood and punched that dog in the snout, this country would be more outraged than it is right now. But I think this country, black, white, is outraged at what they saw. And the good thing is that the young man from Sacramento had the presence of mind to get his video camera and tape it. And he needs to be thanked for this.

(APPLAUSE)

KELLY: If it appears what has happened here -- and the officer did punch him in the face, and we see everything -- there isn't anybody in their right mind doesn't want to see that officer punished or disciplined or whatever it is.

But I would like to find out what the reasoning was. What were the circumstances? And it seems we only have this part of the tape here. And there is evidently another tape available to take it the whole nine yards, rather than just looking at the last yard. (CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Excuse me, Joe. Joe, Joe, Joe, do me a favor. Hang on for me, because I am going to ask you to stick around.

I am going to thank Mr. Kelly, Gerald Kelly, for joining me here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And, again, Joe Madison, you stay around here with me, if you would, because we are going to continue this topic after the break, OK?

TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.

We are talking about the videotape of Inglewood police beating 16-year-old Donovan Chavis.

Joining our now discussion is Debbie Schlussel. Did I say that right? Schlussel.

DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL, COLUMNIST, TOWNHALL.COM: Yes, you did.

NEVILLE: Debbie Schlussel, she's an attorney and a columnist with Townhall.com, all right? And Jonah Goldberg is a nationally syndicated columnist and an editor at "The National Review Online." Juleyka Lantigua, Juleyka Lantigua -- did I say it right?

JULEYKA LANTIGUA, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Yes, you did.

NEVILLE: All right, now. She's the syndicated columnist for Scripps Howard newspapers. And Joe Madison of Radio One and XM Radio is still with us.

I want to welcome to all of you to the show.

And, Juleyka, I'm going to get right to it and ask you first up your analysis of the videotape.

LANTIGUA: Well, this videotape is obviously unforgivable.

The violence was extreme. The response on behalf of all of the police officers present is absolutely incomprehensible. How could there have been seven police officers surrounding this one young man and no one said "Enough"? No one had the conscience to pull that other officer back before he punched the kid on the face.

He was already handcuffed. He was already laying face down looking up desperately in search of help or a miracle that would rescue him from the claws of this police officer. It is absolutely incomprehensible.

NEVILLE: But, you know, I have to say, regarding the officer punching and why didn't the other officers step in, it seemed like that --(r)MD+IT¯ (r)MD-IT¯I didn't know. You could not tell this punch was going to come, that this guy was getting ready to punch the poor guy who was handcuffed at the time.

LANTIGUA: But why should that matter? Do we have to wait for an officer to go to extremes?

NEVILLE: Well, but I am saying -- and, panel, whoever wants to jump in here.

SCHLUSSEL: Yes. Arthel, Arthel, Juleyka just talked longer than the video clip we actually saw. And she made all kind of inferences that just aren't there. We don't know what happened before this 20 seconds.

And I happen to agree with retired police officer Kelly. The fact is that a lot of other things could have happened before. There is a bloody gash on the side of the head of one of the police officers. Clearly, this kid attacked him. And while nobody supports excessive police brutality, the fact is that we do not know what happened.

And I think Juleyka is making an awful lot of assumptions here, that we just don't know what really happened.

(CROSSTALK)

LANTIGUA: No, I would have to completely disagree with that.

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Juleyka.

LANTIGUA: I am not making any assumptions. I am basing it on the fact that we all saw what happened on the videotape.

There is no gash.

SCHLUSSEL: Yes, there is.

LANTIGUA: There is a very small stream of blood coming down his ear. Give me a break. This kid is probably 150 pounds. I would guess the officer was probably 200 and change.

SCHLUSSEL: How do you know that?

LANTIGUA: I am looking at the videotape.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLUSSEL: Well, I looked at the videotape and I see a gash on the side of a police officer. And you attack a police officer and he has the right to respond and defend himself.

LANTIGUA: I am not attacking the police officer. I am questioning his motive for smacking the kid against the car.

MADISON: How would you like to hear from somebody that interviewed two witnesses this morning who were there on the scene? Let me tell you what those two witnesses said.

One, the young man was actually dragged by that same police officer by a silver chain across that parking lot. No. 2, that same police officer a month ago beat a man to the point that he was in the hospital with a coma. And because it wasn't on video, we simply did not hear about it. That man...

SCHLUSSEL: Well, Joe, the fact is, that is two witnesses. I don't know how many other witnesses were there.

MADISON: Well, how many people did you talk to?

SCHLUSSEL: And the fact is that we don't know what happened. We don't know.

MADISON: Wait a minute. The fact is, the fact is that I talked to those two witnesses. How many people did you interview today?

SCHLUSSEL: That is completely irrelevant. How many witnesses were there? Did you interview all of the witnesses? Were you there? Are you an attorney? Are you a prosecutor? That is completely irrelevant.

(CROSSTALK)

MADISON: But you guys are sitting up here. In other words, you are telling me that the eyewitnesses I said don't count, but yet you have not talked to anybody. And the only thing you've seen...

SCHLUSSEL: I did not hear your interview. I am only going by what you say. And you are an advocate.

MADISON: Trust me. Trust me. Do me a favor. Trust me.

SCHLUSSEL: I would like to see the whole story rather than your biased account.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Jonah, Jonah, I haven't heard from you on this.

JONAH GOLDBERG, "NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE": Look, I'll tell you, I talked to a few people. I talked to a few cops, a couple actually who were cops in California, about all of this.

And the emotion around this -- I mean, everybody is talking about how it is obvious what happened, how it is so clear-cut what happened. The reality is, is we all thought that everything was absolutely clear-cut and cut and dry in the Rodney King. Now, a lot of good reporting by a lot of good liberal columnists, good liberal reporters has shown that that case was not cut and dry either. Looking at a little bit of video and then extrapolating to say that you know exactly what happened, or even talking to two eyewitnesses does not say that you know everything that happened.

(CROSSTALK) NEVILLE: One second for me, because I think what everybody is saying here -- and I think have you something to say as well, Joe, here -- that, almost regardless of what happened before this person was handcuffed, that is when police -- another audience member, Ethel, said that police should maintain a calm nature.

GOLDBERG: Yes, I heard that comment. And if she wants to hire a police force that is not human and will never lose its temper, I am all in favor of it. But so far, such people don't exist.

Now, I am not trying to apologize for this cop. For all I know, this tape is exactly what it seems like it is and he deserves to get punished for going too far. He clearly looked like he snapped.

NEVILLE: Did he deserve to get punched and thrown around and dragged while he's in handcuffs?

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDBERG: You cannot denounce a rush to judgment only when O.J. Simpson is on trial. There is a rush to judgment that is going on here.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say that another network is also showing the bloody face of one of the officers. I don't agree that -- once the man is subdued, he is subdued. I agree with that. But we don't know what happened before the tape started playing.

GOLDBERG: It is being asserted by the guests and by the people on this panel that it is somehow inconceivable that there should ever be force used against a guy in handcuffs.

Now, I think it looks like this guy did not deserve to get the force that he got. But cops have been shot by people in handcuffs. Cops have been stabbed by people in handcuffs. The idea that, simply because someone is in handcuffs, it is always wrong to use what looks like force in a snippet of video is simply a myth. It's a lie. It is not true.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: I have Bill here with something to say.

Go ahead, Bill.

BILL: Well, obviously, none of us know what happened preceding this videotape. But if it was standard procedure, probably someone wouldn't take the time to get out a video camera and start filming it. Obviously, something was going wrong in the first place to precipitate them to do that. And so I think based on that, based on the interviews that the other gentleman made earlier today, obviously, something was going wrong. (CROSSTALK)

SCHLUSSEL: Arthel, that is not true. The fact is that people shoot things with video cameras every single day.

MADISON: No cop has the right to hit anybody like that. Look, people. Look, this is not conservative. This is not liberal. This is not Democrat.

SCHLUSSEL: Why is there always this rush to judgment to blame the police when you do not know what happened?

MADISON: Oh, let me tell you something.

SCHLUSSEL: I don't need to be told anything.

MADISON: I don't have a right to reach across this camera and slap you. But the bottom line is, that cop does not have a right to slap that kid already handcuffed.

SCHLUSSEL: Well, you know, just like the violent person that put a gash in the police officer's head, I'm very -- this very profound sentiment that you want to attack me with the same kind of violence.

MADISON: Profound sentiment in common sense.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Here we go. I am going to have a young gentleman in the audience speak out now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless of what happened before the tape or what happened before the incident, he was subdued. Therefore, he should not have been punched in the face. I think everybody is concentrating on what happened before. If these gentlemen, three or four officers, cannot handle one person, then I don't think they need to be on the team, the police force anyway.

I think President Bush is all about cracking down on Enron and those other corporations, but I think that he needs to crack down on police officers. Thank you.

SCHLUSSEL: Arthel, that's ridiculous. When somebody is on drugs, when they are crazed, when they are violent, they are uncontrollable. It doesn't not matter how many people are there. And to blame the police because somebody is uncontrollable and they attack the police and the police responded is incredible.

LANTIGUA: No one is blaming the police.

We are simply questioning the procedural -- this is what we are questioning here. We are questioning whether or not it was part of

(CROSSTALK)

LANTIGUA: No one is trying to build a case against a police officer. What we are saying is, we need to retrain the police officers, so that the first step that they take is not

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Juleyka, you have the camera. Go ahead. What do you want to say?

LANTIGUA: Thank you.

What I am trying to say is that we need to seriously reconsider how the police are trained to deal with these sensitive situations. Obviously, if it is necessary to forcefully subdue someone, then do so. But if the kid is already handcuffed, if he is already laying face down against the car, what is the need for an additional punch? What is the need for four or five officers to be crowding around him like he is some beast about to attack?

He is not. The kid is looking up in desperation, trying to figure out what is going on. I am questioning whether or not these officers took a first-step, second-step and third-step approach to apprehending this person.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDBERG: It may be that these cops were crowding around to pull the cop off of the kid because the one cop was doing wrong. There are all sorts of rational explanations. This is why we have these things called trials. This is why we have these things called investigations. People are looking at 20 seconds of video.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to say that what I saw was not right. And even though we had the police officers and everything, one dude -- and as small as that dude looked -- cannot beat up all of those officers at one time. And even if he was trying to beat them up or whatever, they did what they had to do and they handcuffed him. So, there should not have been no more to that. And what if it was your kid out there? Then what would your kid think? How would your kid...

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

SCHLUSSEL: I don't have children, but my child wouldn't attack the police.

NEVILLE: I'm going to have to say goodbye to Debbie Schlussel, Joe Madison, Jonah -- prompter person, please stay awake -- Jonah Goldberg and Juleyka Lantigua.

But there is still much more ahead on TALKBACK LIVE.

Thank you to my guests very much.

As the president gets tough on the corporate crowd, we'll get one view from the top. You know him as the owner of the Dallas Mavericks, but today Mark Cuban puts on his CEO cap and speaks out. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If more scandals are hiding in corporate America, we must find and expose them now, so we can begin rebuilding the confidence of our people and the momentum of our markets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: President Bush says CEOs should step up and take responsibility.

So, we are asking a CEO what he thinks about the president's plan. Joining us now: Mark Cuban. He is the CEO and president of HDNet. He is also the owner, the outspoken owner of the Dallas Mavericks.

Welcome, Mark.

MARK CUBAN, CEO, HDNET: Thanks. Great to be here.

NEVILLE: All right, nice to have you.

So, what do you think about the president's plan, which includes jail time for corrupt CEOs?

CUBAN: It's a waste of time.

The problem is not with the CEOs. They are basically responding to what shareholders want them to do. The problem is the fact that consumers, regular, everyday people, are buying stocks without having a clue what they are buying and without doing their homework.

NEVILLE: Yes, but, Mark, how do they do homework and how do they have a clue if all the information is wrong and is misleading?

CUBAN: Well, the information is almost always there one way or the other.

I personally buy stocks. But I am only going to buy a stock that pays dividends. The stock market is broken, I guess is where I'm going with this. Right now, the only way that you are rewarded when you buy stocks is if you sell the stock. That is not an investment. If I were going to go and buy, invest in a restaurant, the first question I am going to ask is: How are you going to give me my money back and how are you going to return cash to me? I am not going to ask: How are you going to sell the stock for me?

And that is the problem with the stock market. And given that that is the way it is, the president needs to go watch "Ferris Bueller's Day Off." I don't care how many truant officers you have. Ferris is going to find a way to get out of school. And it's the same with CEOs. CEOs are going to take the path of least resistance. NEVILLE: But isn't that too bad, Mark, because you have a lot of people whose livelihoods are at stake here? And their life savings are gone now.

CUBAN: I think it is terrible what happened. But if we are going to fix it, we have got to address the problem. We can't just go and try to create political answers just because politicians want to have their day of glory.

NEVILLE: So, in a nutshell, how do we fix the problem?

CUBAN: There's a couple of things that we can do.

First, if you are a consumer and you're looking at buying stocks, don't buy stocks thinking your only return is going to sell it at a higher price. If you subscribe to the greater-fool theory, then you are just one fool in the chain. What I do is, I only look for stocks that pay dividends. Then the only thing I have to ascertain is whether or not there is enough cash in the company for them to pay dividends or not.

The second thing I would do in terms of corporate governance is, I would require, if a CEO is going to issue stock to themselves or to any board member, that they first have to be paying dividends to their shareholders. And they can only issue shares of stocks in that class, the class that pays dividends. And the reason you do that is, the inherent limitation on all the cheating, all the scamming is the amount of cash in the checkbook. You can't cheat that at all. Either you have the cash or you don't. And that puts an inherent limitation on it.

NEVILLE: Mark...

CUBAN: And the third thing is, I would qualify consumers before they buy stocks.

NEVILLE: I am so sorry that we are out of time, because that was some really interesting information.

Mark Cuban, thank you very much for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE today.

CUBAN: My pleasure. Any time.

NEVILLE: And thanks to you for watching.

Join me, Arthel Neville, tomorrow, 3:00 Eastern, for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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