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CNN Talkback Live

Jackson Announces Lawsuit Against Inglewood Police; Judge Reduces Charges Against Mother Who Left Kids in Hot Car

Aired July 10, 2002 - 15:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. Welcome to the program. OK. A short while ago Donovan Jackson, his father, Coby Chavis and their attorneys announced a lawsuit over the beating the teenager received Saturday at the hands of police officers in Inglewood, California.

Now this story hit a nerve with a lot of people. I want to know how you feel about it, so give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@cnn.com, and I also want to know what's on your mind regarding our other stories. Take a look right now at what we're talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

What should happen to the officer caught on tape beating a 16- year-old teen, and what made him do it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've not seen any real pictures of white kids being brutally beaten or harassed by police officers.

NEVILLE: Also deadly heat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knew it was hot. She put the kids in the car. She cracked the window and she spent over three hours in the salon.

NEVILLE: What do you do with a mother who leaves her children to roast in a car?

And a tie in the All Star game leaves fans hot under the collar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. I mean this is why people don't come to the games in the first place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last time I think I had a game like that was when it got too dark and the streetlights weren't coming on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean it just sucks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE: OK, now just moments ago attorneys for Donovan Jackson, the teenager in the videotape, and his father Coby Chavis, attorneys for those gentlemen just held a live press conference moments ago outside of the federal courthouse in Los Angeles, and right now I'd like to take -- listen in on what the attorneys had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN E. SWEENEY, FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: We called this press conference this morning to announce the filing of a federal civil rights cause of action pursuant to the 1971 Civil Rights Act. We decided to file in a federal court for a couple of reasons. Number one, we want to send the City of Inglewood a message that we are going to prosecute this case as a vigorously and as roughly as they beat our clients.

And the -- it would have taken, if we filed it in state court, it would have taken several channels to go through, which would have taken perhaps five or six months to file the case. And so, that's why we decided to file it in federal court. We also have been inundated by the media, as you know, both national and international, and the international media has expressed a concern that these type of things go on regularly in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: OK, with us now are California Congresswoman Maxine Waters. The beating incident happened in her district and Georgia Congressman Bob Barr who is a former prosecutor and on the phone, Lieutenant Carl Deeley, a public information officer with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. We'd like to welcome all of you to the show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

NEVILLE: And Representative Barr, I'm going to start with you. First, before we go any further, I want to know your reaction when you first saw the videotape?

REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: Well, my first reaction was that this clearly is a case that appears on the surface to be a case of far too much violence, an overreaction on the part of the police, and I'm very pleased that the Department of Justice has launched an investigation. I hope that the FBI investigates this case very rapidly, but very thoroughly and if in fact what we, you know, certainly believe we saw in that tape is sustained by the evidence and nothing else comes to light would change that opinion, that it be prosecuted very vigorously and very quickly.

NEVILLE: Congresswoman Waters, your reaction to the videotape.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I share the sentiment that was just expressed about Congressman Barr. I was very shaken, and I could only think not again. As you know, I went through the Rodney King and many other incidents throughout this country where young black men were either brutalized or killed by police officers. And it is very unsettling, and I feel terrible for this young man, Donovan Jackson and his family, and it appears from having seen the video that he was brutalized by the Inglewood police, that slammed his head into that police cruiser while he was handcuffed.

And so it's very upsetting and I'm going to work very hard to make sure that there is justice in this case, and as Congressman Barr said, it's being looked at by the Justice Department, the FBI. I've sent a letter to them. I've talked with them. I know that the mayor of Inglewood has expressed strong concerns about what took place and he's talked with the district attorney. So I think we're on the right track to make sure that the investigation is swift, and that we get justice and a verdict in this -- with this incident. But, again, it's quite unfortunate for Americans to see that kind of thing continuing to happen.

NEVILLE: Absolutely and the officer Jeremy Morse, the one seen punching the teen in the videotape, now he has been suspended with pay, and I want to know what you think, Congresswoman, what do you think should happen to the other officers as well as Officer Morse?

WATERS: Well I think they should all be suspended. The mayor told me that he wanted Officer Morse suspended without pay. And I don't know if anything has changed from the original decision, but they all participated in some shape, form or fashion, even if they just stood and watched. It seems to me, that given the Rodney King incident that happened in the greater Los Angeles area, and all that we went through, that at least one of those officers could have said, hold it, cool down, just a moment. When they saw one officer appear to get out of hand, it seems to me that they should have been a safeguard against what we saw happen. So I think they should all be suspended, and we should get at the bottom of it.

I understand that the parents have a lawyer. They are filing a lawsuit and they should. And the investigations are going forward, and that should happen, and I'm just hopeful that the people in my district and in Inglewood will see that we're agreeing that it looks as if something went radically wrong here, that that video that depicted that brutalizing of that young man is giving us a kind of story that deserves punishment for somebody.

NEVILLE: Congressman Barr, some people in the Inglewood community are calling for these officers to be fired. What do you think should happen?

BARR: I don't think that that's really something that Congress certainly ought to get involved in. I'm confident that the mayor, the council and the police department I'm sure have procedures in place for suspending officers in appropriate circumstances. It certainly seems, would seem to fit those, but in terms of the specifics and the details of exactly how to handle it, I don't think that we need Congress getting involved in that. I just do hope that the FBI conducts a very thorough investigation of the civil rights ramifications of this case and that they collect and maintain all the evidence, review it quickly and proceed forward.

NEVILLE: I'm going to bring in Lieutenant Carl Deeley now from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. Lieutenant, when you hear this story, it brings back shades of Rodney King, Abner Louima, Amadou Diallo. What do you say to people who have lost faith in police?

LT. CARL DEELEY, L.A. COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Well all I can do is comment on the actions of our deputies that were involved in the incident and from that evening on, it was - an investigation was undertaken. Our investigation is being monitored by the Office of Independent Review, which is a group of independent civil rights attorneys that will monitor the entire investigation, and in fact will shape the direction that it goes and to make sure that the investigation is a fair hearing for the deputies that were involved.

NEVILLE: Now Lieutenant, I understand that you're obviously focusing on this particular incident, but again, as a lieutenant, I'm going to ask you again, there are people in many communities that have lost faith in police, not everybody but many people. Just want to know - I would like you to address that. What do you say? I mean this is definitely not the first time we've seen unfortunate pictures like this.

DEELEY: Well, again, I'm not commenting on this particular incident because Inglewood obviously is not, was in our jurisdiction, but in answering your question, I would say that, obviously police officers are human beings like anybody else and they make mistakes, and there's incidents that have occurred that have embarrassed all peace officers that have gone on. But I -- what I'd say to the public is that overwhelmingly, peace officers are honest. They work hard. They put their lives on the line every day for the public, and I would match up our profession against any profession in the matter of integrity for the overwhelming majority of officers throughout this nation.

NEVILLE: Lieutenant, yesterday we had someone on our program, an audience member who pointed out that she was under the impression that police officers granted they're under stress that we can't imagine, but that they should be required to exercise control even in situations like this. And they were concerned, this lady was concerned that this, Donovan Jackson was already subdued, already in handcuffs and to see him being slammed against the car and punched the way he was, it disturbed her.

DEELEY: Well again, not all of the facts have come out in this case, and hopefully all of the officers involved will get a fair hearing, and there won't be a rush to judgment and of course if it turns out there is wrongdoing on this part, that there are punishments in hand to take care of that problem. Again, not all the information has come out and there seems to be a real rush to convict everybody involved ...

NEVILLE: Now ...

DEELEY: ... without a fair hearing yet.

NEVILLE: ... can you give us a little more detail as to what happened before the videotape was rolling or any new information that you might have on this incident? DEELEY: Sure. Originally it started off as just, and I hate to use this term, routine traffic stop, because there really isn't any such thing, but minor traffic violation for expired registration tags. The two deputies from our department walked up to talk to the juvenile's father, Mr. Chavis, and as they were doing so, the young man, Mr. Jackson, who had left the car to pay for gas and to make a purchase at the store, tried to involve himself in the traffic stop.

In fact on two different occasions he tried to get into the vehicle after being told not to by Deputy Lopez. After talking to him, the -- he became somewhat belligerent and put his hand in his pocket, which made the deputy concerned that he may be, you know, reaching for a weapon. They asked him to pull his hand out, did a quick pat down search of him, and then tried to calm him down, and get him to walk towards the back of his patrol car.

Mr. Jackson was determined to involve himself during the traffic stop so Deputy Lopez told him while he was not under arrest, and he was not going to be handcuffed, he was going to place him in the backseat of his radio car (UNINTELLIGIBLE) finish the business with his father. During this time, he seemed to calm down a little bit as the deputy put him inside the back of the car, he released his grip on the -- Mr. Jackson's hands and at that point, he turned around and lunged at the deputy, and they began to wrestle on the ground as Deputy Lopez tried to handcuff him.

NEVILLE: OK, you know, I have an actual comment, Lieutenant, from ...

DEELEY: Sure.

NEVILLE: ... Tony (ph) here in the audience.

TONY (ph): Yes, first of all I'd like to thank the individual for being courageous enough to come forward with that videotape, and it just goes to show how police brutality continues today in America today. And I think it should be stopped and justice should be served.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much for standing up. Listen, we have to take a break right now. I would like Representatives Barr and Waters to stand by with us, if you wouldn't mind, and I know Joe (ph), you're calling in to express your opinion on this story as well. And I want to hear from the rest of you via phone call or e-mail. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Now Meesha (ph), what were you telling us during the break?

MEESHA (ph): If U.S. citizens are bound by certain laws that if we attack or assault someone, we are punished with jail time and excessive fines, why can someone say that a police officer is any different than the rest of us? They should be bound by the same laws and rights that the rest of the American citizens live by. NEVILLE: Thank you very much. And welcome back everybody. We are talking about the police beating caught on tape of 16-year-old Donovan Jackson, and I wanted to let you know that we had to let Congresswoman Waters and Congressman Barr go vote, and also Lieutenant Deeley from Los Angeles had to leave us as well.

But Joe (ph) is still with us on the phone from Ohio and you have what to say Joe (ph)?

JOE (ph): Thank you. One, two comments real quick. Obviously I don't condone any type of brutality like that. It's very bad, but the other comment I have to make is if this young 16-year-old boy had been a white boy, would the networks do this much showing and showing over and over again of his brutality if he was white, and I can see the Congress people already jumping on the bandwagon.

This is going to become a political ticket as well, and that's the part that bothers me more. We're making it one person, only this poor black boy that got beat up, but if he was white, I don't think we would have received 10 seconds of this on television.

NEVILLE: I think the reason being, Joe (ph), that a lot of times, apparently we don't see that happening to ...

JOE (ph): Well I hope we never do.

NEVILLE: Exactly. I certainly don't want to, you know, advocate that happening to any kind, anyone, young ...

JOE (ph): I don't either.

NEVILLE: ... white males or black males ...

JOE (ph): I don't either.

NEVILLE: ... but I think that is why it does stand out. But thank you for calling in Joe (ph).

JOE (ph): Well, thank you for taking my call.

NEVILLE: Of course, and Tonya (ph) you were shaking your head when Joe (ph) was talking.

TONYA (ph): Yes. He was black, right? And I would think that maybe he, the police officer had something against African-Americans.

NEVILLE: We don't know that at this point, but that's your opinion?

TONYA (ph): Yes, that's a good possibility.

NEVILLE: OK, thank you for standing up. Now in the meantime the Inglewood Police Department has received a second complaint and here to talk about it, CNN's Thelma Gutierrez. She joins us live from outside the federal courthouse in downtown Los Angeles.

Now, Thelma, is this latest allegation against the Inglewood Police Department or Officer Jeremy Morse?

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, attorneys for 32- year-old Neilson Williams, this the second person who is making those allegations. His name is Neilson Williams. He is 32 years old. He is a resident of Inglewood. He did name Officer Jeremy Morse in a complaint that was filed with the Inglewood Police Department, but again, they have not detailed Officer Morse's involvement in that particular beating. They claim that it happened two weeks before the Chavis incident.

Now Neilson Williams, the person who's making that allegation said yesterday, at a news conference, that he only had a gut feeling that it was Officer Morse that was involved in his beating, but he couldn't identify him outright. He just said a gut feeling after he saw the Jackson tape.

Now Williams says that Inglewood police beat him up when he was walking home from a community gathering at a local park. He says that it happened two weeks before the Jackson incident. He says the beating put him in a coma and here's how he described it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEILSON WILLIAMS, ALLEGED BEATING VICTIM: I was pretty much encountered by a fleet of Inglewood police officers who pretty much had no respect for me, anything I was trying to tell them, and they just basically beat me to a pulp and almost beat me to death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTIERREZ: Now Inglewood police have released a statement. I'm going to read some of it to you for their side of the story. They say that Williams was drunk, that he was belligerent, that he appeared to be under the influence of drugs and alcohol, that he resisted and he began to fight with officers, that he was put in some kind of a neck hold and in handcuffs and that it was at that point that the officers realized that Williams was unconscious and later he was taken to a hospital.

Now, again, Williams claims that he was just walking home. He did nothing to provoke the officers and that the officers attacked him - Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Thelma, thank you very much for that update on this story. And joining me now to talk about the lawsuit and this second police beating complaint are criminal defense attorney Geoffrey Fieger, former New York prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Pamela Hayes, and Lawrence County, Pennsylvania District Attorney Matthew Mangino. I want to welcome all of you to the show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be here.

NEVILLE: Now, Matthew, does this latest allegation have any impact on your disposition towards this story?

MATTHEW MANGINO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LAWRENCE COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA: No it doesn't because I believe that a prosecutor's responsibility is to look at the specific facts in a given case. Now what we know right now is what we've observed on a videotape -- a videotape that is only part of an entire incident. I don't think that we can rush to judgment.

I don't think that we should, as far as a criminal prosecution, be looking at other instances of possible brutality or anything else or assault of behavior by a police officer. I think as a prosecutor you've got to focus on this specific incident and what you can learn about what happened.

NEVILLE: Pam Hayes, how do you see it?

PAMELA HAYES, FORMER STATE PROSECUTOR: Well I see it as a starting point. When you start looking at the entire scenario, they had a witness who saw this entire event. She was able to get the man who did the camera work to videotape it. What I would want to do is I would want to talk to her. I would want to talk to the police officers, and I would want to talk to the victims. But just looking at what happened is the shades of Rodney King whereas we're still in a culture where police have not learned how to effectively be professional.

NEVILLE: Geoffrey Fieger.

GEOFFREY FIEGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. These incidents happen repeatedly across the country every single day. The only unique thing about this incident is that it was videotaped and thankfully the injury isn't very serious.

NEVILLE: OK, I have Charlie (ph) here in the audience from Florida. What do you say Charlie (ph)?

CHARLIE (ph): Well there's no doubt that these policemen should be tried in full extent of the law. I'm just a little concerned about another aspect of our existence here in America, and that is the fact that we're -- the world here, with Afghan, the Middle East, the stock market, we've got so much trouble in this word and we're just highlighting something that could be taken care of perhaps with one showing, but this is constantly being shown, and I feel for the young man, I really do, and I just feel that that's my opinion.

NEVILLE: So you feel that because of everything that's going on in the world, that we shouldn't repeat this videotape on the air?

CHARLIE (ph): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to extent ...

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Repeat showing it?

CHARLIE (ph): I would show it. There's no question about it, but we can overkill, and that's my problem. FIEGER: Can I respond to that?

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

FIEGER: I think you're wrong for another reason. The purpose of showing this videotape over and over again is to deter other police officers from engaging in this type of behavior, and that's a good thing. While we've got everything else going on in the world, we're out there in the rest of the world holding ourselves up in our society as an example. Well if this is the example we show the rest of the world, then we're not sending a very good example. So it's a good thing to show this as much as possible so that every police officer who even would think of engaging in this behavior, would be deterred from doing it in the future for fear that they might get caught on tape or even better yet, for fear that they might get caught at all, and that they shouldn't do it in the first place.

NEVILLE: In the first place. Shirley (ph) from Illinois.

SHIRLEY (ph): I have a question concerning code of ethics. I know when policemen are trained, they're also trained in integrity and character. This was not displayed with this particular police officer. He was acting more like a thug on the street. I really have a concern about the integrity of the individuals who are representing the police department across this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well ...

NEVILLE: Pam Hayes.

HAYES: That ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I could respond to that.

HAYES: ... was one of the things I was talking about. You have to be able to train police officers how to respond professionally, even though we know what that officer did was wrong, it was not professional. So we have a lot of talk about OK, we're going to prosecute him. We're going to put him away. The culture is still alive because we haven't changed it, and therefore, the other young officers or old officers, they still think they can do this. This guy has been on the force three years. This is 10 years after Rodney King, 10 years after riots where people got killed, and he still thinks he can act out. Jail is not the answer. It might be one of the solutions, but we have to change the thinking process.

NEVILLE: OK, Pam Hayes ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We also ...

NEVILLE: ... hang on for me guys. I need to switch gears. I'm going to take a break here, but when we come back, we're going to talk about another legal case that is just heartbreaking. We'll be back.

Still ahead, fatal error, bad judgment or felony murder? What do you call it when a mother leaves her children locked inside a hot car for three hours?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They probably sweated and sweated until eventually, unfortunately probably lost consciousness, and as their body temperature climbed even higher, they eventually just succumbed and died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: A tragedy or a crime? You decide right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. Now another case went to court today. This one involving a mother who left her children locked in a car.

Tarajee Maynor was originally charged with felony-murder for leaving her two young children locked in a sweltering car, while she spent more than three hours in a beauty salon. But a district judge in Detroit says Maynor didn't mean to kill her children. He ordered the charges reduced to involuntary manslaughter. She could face 15 years in prison.

Now, Police say Maynor concocted a story about being kidnapped and raped before going to a hospital. She eventually admitted leaving the children while she had her hair done. And one more note: Maynor is pregnant.

Pam Hayes, should Tarajee Maynor be charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter?

HAYES: Clearly, it's involuntary manslaughter. You don't have the elements for murder.

Before you can be charged, the people have to be able to bring all the elements of the crime. And here, you don't have intentional behavior. It is like a negligent, reckless disregard. So I don't think she should be charge with murder. I think the judge made the proper decision.

NEVILLE: Matthew, how do you see it?

MANGINO: Well, I was very interested when I saw that the prosecutors in Michigan wanted to charge her with first-degree murder.

From a technical legal standpoint, I think first-degree murder could fly here. Under the Michigan law, first-degree murder includes felony-murder. And the felony here is first-degree child abuse, which, under the Michigan statute, is a felony. So, based on that, on her neglecting and leaving the children in the car, that is a first- degree felony. I think they could have proceeded with first-degree murder.

But, by and large, do I think that this is a first-degree murder case? Probably not. Involuntary manslaughter is probably the charge that most prosecutors would choose across the country. And here, there is clearly negligence and recklessness on her part. And that is probably the appropriate charge.

NEVILLE: OK, hang on for me, guys.

I have a lot of people in the audience who would like to comment, starting with Adriana.

ADRIANA: Thanks.

I think this is definitely a situation of neglect. You don't just leave your kids in the car like that. That is not right, especially young kids. And, as far as her being pregnant and going to have another kid, I think that it should be put in foster care or a relative's care. But I don't think she should not be allowed to see it at all, because she is its mother. And I think she should have some kind of rights to see it.

NEVILLE: OK, thank you.

MANGINO: Well...

NEVILLE: Go ahead.

MANGINO: I think that we are looking at two different things here. We're looking at a criminal prosecution for her conduct with regard to those specific two children.

She is going to give birth to another child. That is sort of -- that is a civil matter. Children services, protective services needs to intervene. We know that this woman is not capable of taking care of two children, who died in her care. Certainly, we want to make sure that she gets the parenting skills that she needs before she ever has an opportunity to have this yet unborn child in her custody.

NEVILLE: Pam Hayes, should her parental rights be taken away from her and have this third child be placed into the custody of either foster care or relatives?

HAYES: I don't think so. I think you have to wait to see.

We were talking about judging each case on the facts. We don't have a criminal mechanism that can stop somebody from being a parent. It does not work like that. So we are going to have to wait and see what happens in this particular case before we make some judgments about the one that is coming.

MANGINO: That is precisely correct. This is not a criminal matter. The right of her to have custody of her yet unborn child is a civil matter. It's a matter for protective services. It's a matter for state agencies to intervene, to make sure, in the best interest of that child, she is going to be cared for properly.

HAYES: You think she didn't learn her lesson? She has got two dead children. If that is not something that teaches somebody the consequences of their behavior, I don't know what will. I don't think it is a jail term that will make them understand that more.

(CROSSTALK)

MANGINO: We are talking about a 25-year-old woman with two children who left them in a sweltering car to get her hair done. I don't know that she is competent to take care of her yet unborn child.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: The same thing happens when these people leave their children and their homes burn down.

NEVILLE: One second here. I've got Mercy nodding her head.

MERCY: I think that she needs to be punished for the fact that she is 25 years old. She knows how to take care of her children. She knows how to take care of herself. And the day you become a mother should be the day that you change the things that you do. You want to go get your hair done, take your kids with you. Do not leave them in the car and kill them. And I think her kid needs to be taken away from her.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Geoffrey Fieger, I know you are back with us. I want to hear your thoughts on this case.

FIEGER: Well, interestingly enough, the hearing took place just about less than a quarter mile from where I am sitting right now here in the district court in Southfield.

It is a very enlightened judge. And this should give everyone an understanding of the law. I am quite certain, if this woman was put on trial here in Oakland County, which is a conservative, overwhelmingly white county, they might get a conviction of first- or second-degree murder. However, the judge needed to step in in this case because, in fact, it would be almost impossible to prove the scienter, the mens rea, the intent necessary.

And I think what will happen now is that she will plead guilty to involuntary manslaughter. I think she is going to lose the child. Certainly, they are not going to allow a woman who is going to jail -- she is going to serve some time, undoubtedly. That is a forgone conclusion.

But this case I think is going to be taken care of probably as a result of the judge's opinion, the way it should. A big mistake would be if the prosecutor plays politics and appeals the judge's decision, which he can do. He can appeal to the circuit court or the court of appeals and ask that murder charges be reinstated. And then it becomes a political case rather than a legal case that is decided really on what the law really is, rather than the anger people feel.

NEVILLE: OK, Geoffrey, I have to take a break right now.

I have several more audience members who want to jump in on this story. I have some e-mails I want to share with you.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are talking about a 25-year-old Michigan mom who left her children, young children, in a hot car for more than three hours while she got her hair done inside of a salon. This unfortunate situation resulted in their death.

And you have what to say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While the woman was in custody, was there ever a question of her mental stability? Because any smart person would know not to leave infant children in a sweltering car while they go and get their hair done for three hours.

NEVILLE: Thank you, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just think that anybody that leaves their kids in a car for three hours to get their hair done ought to spend a lot of time in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a similar comment. I think that she really deserves to be charged with first-degree murder. It is just common sense. And I understand you are saying that she has learned her lesson. But how do you know she won't leave her kids by open light sockets or that type of thing?

NEVILLE: And, sir, what do you have to say about it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just very concerned about the earlier statement of teaching her parenting skills. Some things are innate, instinctual, and motivated by love. And I don't think she needs a second chance.

NEVILLE: OK, thank you, sir.

Matthew here, how old are you?

MATTHEW: Twelve.

NEVILLE: And you say what?

MATTHEW: I think she meant to do it or she is just insane.

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: No, seriously, hang on. Hang on here. Do you really, really, really believe that this woman would want to kill her children, honestly?

MATTHEW: Yes. NEVILLE: You don't think she just made a foolish mistake?

MATTHEW: I just think she's insane.

NEVILLE: OK. Matthew says no one in their right mind would leave a child or children in a hot car for more than three hours.

What do you say, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel, whether she meant to do it or not, she was wrong, because it is her responsibility as a mother to keep track of her children and everything. And then for her to drive around for three hours trying to think of what she should do, why didn't she take her kids to a hospital or something? There was a chance that they could still be living. She was really irresponsible and she was wrong.

NEVILLE: Thank you, sir.

And how do you see it, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that the United States, as a whole, depends on the family unit to teach children responsibility. And if the mother has a skewed perspective on responsibility, how can she teach her child in the next coming years?

NEVILLE: Thank you.

FIEGER: She is not -- by the way, she is not going to. The Department of Social Services undoubtedly is going to forfeit her right to raise her children. I don't think there is any question about that, in light of what she did. She is going to be stripped of her parental rights with the child which she is carrying now. There's no question about it.

NEVILLE: OK, Geoffrey Fieger.

Pam Hayes, I wanted to hear from you and Matthew before I went to break here, but I am out of time. We had so many people in the audience who really -- are really emotional about this story. But I want to thank all of you for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

MANGINO: Thank you for having me.

HAYES: Bye-bye.

NEVILLE: OK. We'll see you again.

All right, up next: the game nobody won. What is up with that? Stay there.

Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE: Give them something to boo about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The final score doesn't really matter. Somebody would have won the game and it would have been exciting. Now we don't even get an MVP.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are paying $125, two grand a ticket. And these guys give us a tie. This is what we are supposed to deal with? Come on. This is why people don't come to the games in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: There was no winner, but did baseball end up the big loser?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Oh, yes, they get fired up when you get ready to talk about baseball. I see that right now.

Welcome back, everybody.

Last night, the boos could be heard all over the country. It was the end of the 11th. The game was tied. And the players walked off the field for good. What? It was the game without winners, because, as I understand it, they ran out of pitchers.

Let's talk about this now with Rose Marie Holmes, a sports talk show host on WOK in Atlanta and host of "Inside the Hawks," and Sid Rosenberg, a sports reporter for the "Imus in the Morning" radio show and co-host of the "Mac and Sid" show on WFAN in New York.

Welcome to both of you.

ROSE MARIE HOLMES, SPORTS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thanks.

SID ROSENBERG, SPORTS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi.

NEVILLE: All right, Sid, before we go any further, how do you run out of pitchers? Explain that to me.

ROSENBERG: The idea of the All-Star Game, Arthel, is basically is to use everybody, give everybody a chance to play.

So, you usually figure it's going to be a nine-inning game. If I use a pitcher an inning or so, then everybody will be inside the game. I don't think either manager prepared for an 11-inning baseball game. And that is what happened last night.

NEVILLE: Yes, but I understand, Rose Marie, that two of the players, the last two pitchers had only played two innings. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but that is not that much, is it?

HOLMES: Well, but it is an All-Star Game. And what you hope for is that everybody gets a chance to play. And that is what happened. It is amazing that this story is getting the headlines, as it is. And Sid can tell you, baseball has a lot of problems. And if folks are upset over this, then they are not paying attention to baseball, from steroid use to contraction. There are cities that may lose their team.

So, everybody got to play. The All-Star Game is about performance and highlighting the players that had a great season the first half of the season.

NEVILLE: So, you are saying that it is OK to end the game in a tie?

HOLMES: Yes, it's OK. It's OK.

NEVILLE: It is a ball game. We want a winner.

HOLMES: Arthel, what do you want? Do you want to risk an injury to a player who has to go back to his team that may be in first place?

NEVILLE: No, I don't want to do that. That's true.

HOLMES: It is a game.

NEVILLE: Sid, but it is the All-Star Game. People want action. Hello?

ROSENBERG: It is funny, because on the "Imus in the Morning" show today, we had Senator John McCain on from Arizona. And the country is practically falling apart around us. The Dow Jones is plummeting every single day. We are in a war right now. And McCain came on and was absolutely livid about the fact that they didn't finish the All-Star Game.

NEVILLE: Because it is baseball, right?

ROSENBERG: Right. There is supposed to be a winner and loser. And there was no winner or loser last night.

Now, Rose Marie brings up a couple of very good points, which is, you don't want to get somebody hurt. Yes, there were starting pitchers in the game last night that are used to pitching seven or eight innings ordinarily. But when they have to pitch three or four days after the All-Star Game, two innings is usually a lot.

NEVILLE: That's a lot.

ROSENBERG: So, Joe Torre, the A.L. manager and the manager of the Yankees, and Bob Brenly, the N.L. manager and manager Arizona, wanted to make sure they did not hurt these other players. Do you think that Joe Torre wants to deal with Arizona's -- another team's owner if he gets one of their pitchers hurt in the All-Star Game?

NEVILLE: OK, look, so we go with that.

Will, help me out here. But what about the MVP ceremony, right?

WILL: Yes. That's what most people look at the end of the season, is who won the MVP and how great they do that next year and stuff. It's what they look forward to.

NEVILLE: And they did not have the MVP ceremony. Were you upset about that?

WILL: We were somewhere, so we did not watch the game. But when we came back and saw it, it really disappointed us.

NEVILLE: I mean, Rose Marie, why not the MVP ceremony?

HOLMES: Well, the MVP, the award had just been renamed in honor of Ted Williams. And it was sad because there was not an MVP. But, again, I go back to -- to me baseball, last night, what happened, it was not bad for baseball. It was bad for Bud Selig, who is very unpopular. I think that is the issue most fans have.

NEVILLE: OK. And, by the way, Mr. Bud Selig will be addressing the press at 4:00 live. We will bring it to you right here on CNN. I know you don't want to miss that.

And, Wes, you have what to say, sir?

WES: Well, I am a sports journalist in Upper East Tennessee as well.

And the way I look at it, it is a shame because a lot of people have been ragging on Bud Selig all year. And it's a shame. It was at his ballpark. It was his fans. If I paid that much money to go to the All-Star Game, I would be ticked, too. I believe it is something -- the fans love to watch the All-Star Game. But I also look at it from the coach's point of view, as far as players. But you have got to have an MVP. You have got to have a winner. That's the way I look it.

ROSENBERG: Why do you have to have a winner? That is part of the problem, I think, with society and how we are in sports and how we deal with youth, because there always has to be a winner. There were 14 runs scored. There were 25 hits. Barry Bonds, arguably the greatest player right now in the game, had a home run. We saw a fantastic defensive catch made by

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENBERG: It was great.

NEVILLE: All right, Rose Marie, hang on for me, because I have to take a break right now. You are passionate.

Jan wants to jump in. Somebody is on the phone. I'll get to all of you after the break.

Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE everybody.

I want to remind you again that baseball commissioner Bud Selig will hold a live press conference at 4:00 Eastern. I want to make sure you tune it, keep it right here to CNN for that, because everybody is talking about baseball.

Jan, this All-Star ended in a tie. No MVP was announced. What is wrong with this?

JAN: I have got two comments. I think, because of the ticket price, a lot of people are upset. Plus, with all the war going on -- and this is America's game. It was picked by the fans. And I think they need to see who won or lost.

NEVILLE: Hey, Sid, how much were those tickets, what, $125?

ROSENBERG: Oh, probably on the low end.

NEVILLE: Oh, my goodness.

ROSENBERG: Some of those tickets were $175 to $200.

And Rose Marie's point also is well taken, in that baseball is in trouble right now. There is talk of all the steroids, all the labor unrest. We're looking at a possible strike before the end of season. So, you would have liked to have seen everything go perfectly last night.

I kept thinking about "The Bad News Bears," the second movie, where they stopped the game. And Tanner, the shortstop for the Bad News Bears, sat out there at shortstop and refused to leave the field. And the fans started to chant: "Let them play. Let them play."

NEVILLE: "Let them play."

ROSENBERG: "Let them play."

NEVILLE: "Let them play."

ROSENBERG: Yes.

And I kept saying to myself, yes, imagine how the baseball players, who are always accused of being greedy players to begin with, could have endeared themselves to the fans last night -- and I know it's unrealistic -- if they would have stayed out there and played the game despite what Bud Selig said.

NEVILLE: All right, hang on for me, Sid. Mike from Florida is calling in.

Go ahead, Mike.

CALLER: Hi, how are you doing?

NEVILLE: Good. Get to your point, Mike.

CALLER: Oh, OK.

Well, I have been a baseball fan for years. And I think that baseball took a black eye from that last night. With the strike looming in the distance, there was plenty other solutions that they could have had. They could have expanded the roster, for one, or maybe have two All-Star minor league pitchers in reserve in the outfield.

NEVILLE: Mike, thank you very much.

Steven (ph), one question: Who should have been the MVP?

STEVEN: Oh, Barry Bonds, I'm sure, Barry Bonds, by far.

NEVILLE: And what do you say over there, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, these guys are supposed to be the best.

NEVILLE: Who should be the MVP? Just tell me that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sammy Sosa, of course.

NEVILLE: All right, Sammy Sosa.

Rose Marie, final thoughts from you?

HOLMES: You know, folks, it is amazing, because, as I mentioned when we first started, baseball has a lot of problems. And I'm going to throw this out there. And Sid knows it's right. I have not seen this much passion and debate when we talk about the hiring practices of Major League Baseball and the fact that they don't hire a lot of minorities. So, I want some of that passion thrown back at Major League Baseball about that.

NEVILLE: Come back. We will talk about it next time, OK?

All right, listen, Sid Rosenberg, Rose Marie Holmes, thank you very much for joining us today on TALKBACK LIVE.

ROSENBERG: Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thanks to all of you for watching. I'm Arthel Neville. Join me again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern.

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