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Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE
Q&A
Aired July 12, 2002 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Q&A.
It's a place that values it's freedom of thought, the space to discuss opposing ideas: the university. But some say that's changing.
An Egyptian born professor at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology fired two scholars because they are Israeli.
We asked Prof. Mona Baker to join us on the program today, but she declined. The University of Manchester released this statement.
"The University regrets the action taken to remove two Israeli academics from the board. We are a multicultural and multinational community that believes strongly that discrimination based on nationality, race, religion or other grounds is wrong."
Joining us now on the line is Peter Fletcher. He's a lecturer of mathematics and computer science at Keele University. He's one of the signatories to a petition that calls for a boycott of Israeli academic institutions.
Peter Fletcher, why sign it?
PETER FLETCHER, KEELE UNIVERSITY: Well, I, and many of my colleagues, were appalled by the way in which the Israeli government has treated the Palestinians and it's refusal to make peace, and we felt we could no longer collaborate with Israel on that basis.
VERJEE: But what value does it serve?
FLETCHER: It's a public indication of our disapproval, which, along with other international pressure may have some effect on Israel.
VERJEE: Isn't it, though, an assault on academic freedom? I mean, what happened to the notion of the academy as a space and a place for opposing ideas, of different intellectual discourse that can be accommodated? What happened to that?
FLETCHER: Well, that's still very much alive and kicking. This is a gesture aimed at official Israeli institutions, including universities. It's not aimed at the individual Israeli colleagues.
The statement that we signed, it said that we will continue to collaborate with and host Israeli scientific colleagues on an individual basis.
VERJEE: But it seems to me as though, even though you say it's not an individual thing, what Prof. Mona Baker has done was to dismiss two Israelis from the board of two journals that she publishes. I mean, doesn't it effectively boil down to that, when you look at that case?
FLETCHER: Well, that's her interpretation of the statement, which I think isn't one that I would quite share. But to be fair to her, I should point out that she dismissed them because they worked for Israeli universities, and not because they are Israeli citizens.
VERJEE: Isn't the idea, though, you know, to keep people like that on there to, you know, share ideas and bridge ideological differences? I mean, that is the function, in many ways, of the academy.
FLETCHER: Well, I think I'll draw an analogy here with the successful boycotting of apartheid -- of apartheid South Africa.
Again, the same arguments were used. Some people argued we should constructively engage with South African institutions, but I think history proved that, in the end, that the international boycott was helpful in bringing an end to apartheid.
VERJEE: Shahid Alam of Northeastern University joins us now, from Boston, as well as Sylvain Cappell of New York University. He joins us from New York.
Shahid, what do you think about this? Do you support the dismissal action by Prof. Mona Baker?
SHAHID ALAM, NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY: I'm not sure that I support this particular act.
You know, the statement that I signed suggested that, you know, we are going to get whole cooperation from institutions. And however, you know, I can imagine that this particular boycott could be carried to the point where we simply refuse to deal with any Israeli institutions or their individuals.
It is, you know, it could be a very powerful statement and a statement that may have to be made at some point in order to express, you know, our outrage at the kinds of actions, at the kinds of human rights violations that have been going on in the occupied territories now for more than 35 years.
VERJEE: We're going to ask.
SILVAN: OK. Can I.
VERJEE: . the two dismissed professors to speak in just a moment -- but yes.
SYLVAIN CAPPELL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: I'd like to ask.
VERJEE: Sylvain, your reaction.
CAPPELL: I'd like to ask some questions about the program these gentlemen have the politicization of universities.
I think the general principle is that boycotts are not the way to handle academic institutions or academic life.
Now, let me ask a specific question. For example, I have a distinguished Arab colleague who is of origin in Israel. He was born in Israel. He's been a professor in the United States for some years, and he has now accepted a tenured position back at a leading Israeli university. Are these gentlemen suggesting that he should be boycotted also?
Or are they suggesting that what they want to do is start a full program of bigotry, where we start checking what religion every professor has, what nationality, what sexual orientation? Where is the limit that these gentlemen envision of having here?
VERJEE: Shahid?
CAPPELL: I mean, the world is filled with conflicts, which we keep out of this sort of -- out of the university world this way.
ALAM: Yes, true, the world is filled with conflicts, but we are faced with a conflict in which we have, at the center of this conflict, a country that has been violating international law, that has been violating Security Council resolutions, that has been violating human rights.
And why.
CAPPELL: OK.
ALAM: Just a minute. Why has it been able to do that? It has been able to do that because it has the support of the world's great superpowers, and so it can get away with anything.
CAPPELL: Now, look. Israel is not above criticism, and one is freely entitled to criticize it, as many Israeli universities -- many Israeli universities are filled with critics of Israeli policy, as I'm sure you know.
But that's not the same as instituting a boycott.
Now, look, just recently Amnesty International, which has frequently criticized Israel, said that the Palestinian organizations that sponsor suicide bombings are guilty of crimes against humanity.
So what are we going to have? Are we going to have that you're going to boycott Israeli universities, and the next fellow is going to boycott Arab ones, and the next one that, and Hindus will be boycotting Muslims and Muslims Hindus, because of their conflicts?
The university should be a model for the rest of the world. It's been a sacred space where intellectual life takes place freely, and that's the way my university works. I know that's how my institute works. I have Arab colleagues. I have colleagues from everywhere. We have visitors from Arab and Israeli universities. We have graduates from Arab and Israeli universities sharing offices, and they get along.
And the university should be a model, and the right road to take.
VERJEE: OK.
CAPPELL: .to achieve peace and reconciliation is to visit these places, and support that.
VERJEE: Peter Fletcher, what do you think about what Sylvain is saying? The university should be a model for the rest of the world; and he's talking about other conflicts and other differences around the world, and why isn't that seeping into the academy, and why just this particular issue?
FLETCHER: I don't believe the university people should be above politics. We are citizens and we are responsible for the consequences of our professional activities.
It's in that spirit that I feel personally I -- it would be wrong for me to have any official links with Israeli institutions. I do not wish to setup a witch hunt against individuals because of their political beliefs or ethnic backgrounds or anything of the sort. That is not what this statement is about.
VERJEE: Shahid, isn't what you're saying, what Peter is saying -- doesn't it -- all it does, really, is to undermine the notion of free thinking and freedom of thought in the academy?
ALAM: I'm not sure that this is -- this particular action is being aimed, or aims to undermine academic freedom. I think this is a message, a symbolic message, that is directed to Israel.
VERJEE: Well, hang on. How can you say that? Two scholars have been kicked off a board because they're Israeli.
ALAM: Well, that is a part of this boycott, you know. If you're going to boycott Israeli institutions, then individuals are going to be effected. The question is.
CAPPELL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
ALAM: . what do we -- what do we intend to get out of this? You know, I mean, Israel, it seems, has been above the law. You know, there are -- you know, endless instances of Israel getting away with, you know, outrageous actions.
VERJEE: But there are other countries that have gotten away with outrageous actions.
CAPPELL: Look, I would like to say, look, I've had an Iraqi-Arab Ph.D. student finish a degree with me. Now, the United States has all kinds of problems with Iraq. If my student, after he finished his Ph.D., had returned to Iraq, am I suppose to boycott him because America is hostile to Iraq? Or because Iraq is hostile to America? It's ridiculous. It's not a way to run academic life.
ALAM: Now, I think we have to make a moral judgment whether, in fact, the United States sanction on Iraq is morally acceptable to me.
CAPPELL: No. But the point is, you can't run a university with everyone making political judgments.
ALAM: I don't think we can place.
CAPPELL: Some people -- you may be right. But then, so is the other fellow, about his conflict. And so will be the Hindus about the Muslims. And so on.
ALAM: Listen, let me -- you know, I don't think that we can look at the Israeli universities as something quite apart from Israeli society.
Here is a country that runs an apartheid system. And universities feed into that system. Universities produce that system. Universities reproduce that system.
CAPPELL: OK. First of all.
ALAM: And what I would like to know, you know, I would like to know, probably, you know, there will be some hesitation that I might have experienced in signing this document, if I were aware that Israeli academics, large numbers of Israeli academics, have taken strong positions, have passed resolutions, condemning, expressing their outrage.
But I'm afraid that that has not happened.
CAPPELL: First of all, Israeli universities, in general, as everyone knows, stand on the left of society, generally. Most Israeli academics favor peace and reconciliation very strongly, and in fact Israeli universities have a large numbers of Arab students.
Some, the University of Haifa, for example, I think it's over 1/3 of the students are Arab. The number is growing rapidly at all Israeli Universities.
ALAM: Let me.
VERJEE: Let him make his point.
CAPPELL: And moreover, the big joke is this: that in fact, Israeli universities operate by the norms and standards of international scholarship, in terms of freedom of expression and in terms of having people of every background participate.
And the big joke is if you want to study Arab or, in fact, Islamic history, you can do so far better at many Israeli universities that in any university in the Arab or Muslim world right now, because they're studies freely, because the level of studies of those is far higher, in fact. And that's not true in the Arab world.
Now, I do not think that because the universities in some other countries do not maintain international standards of openness, or of treating everyone equally, that they should be boycotted, because in places like -- and there are countries were people of some religion cannot get university positions. Still, I favor visiting those places, because that's how we make them progress, and that's how we make them improve.
The university.
VERJEE: OK. I'll give you a chance to respond to that in a moment, but Peter Fletcher is still with us, and I want to ask Peter, do these kinds of boycotts really work? I mean, does it really change anything?
FLETCHER: It's difficult to tell, but I think if you persist, then it does. It worked in the case of South Africa, I think.
CAPPELL: Could I make a correction of a point of fact here? There was a boycott of South Africa. I supported it and I favored it. There was never a boycott of South African universities. It was always understood that for academic reasons, one can visit universities, provided the universities are not themselves acting as centers of apartheid in South Africa.
VERJEE: OK. Peter.
CAPPELL: And that was a generally understood principle of academic life. You're confusing the economic boycott, which is a whole different story, with an academic issue.
VERJEE: Peter.
FLETCHER: Well, there was also a general cultural and sporting boycott, as well, and it's not my understanding that universities were generally exempted from that.
VERJEE: Shahid.
ALAM: Yes. You know, I would also beg to differ. I think the boycott in South Africa extended to academics. In fact, it was a complete boycott of academics, of artists, of athletes, sportsmen.
And, you know, coming back to the question of what is this going to achieve, I think it is about time that we sent a message, a message to the Israeli government, that these actions in the West Bank and Gaza are going to have consequences.
You know, finally, the international civil society is being mobilized, and it is putting forth, you know, statements which are saying that these kinds of actions are simply not going to be acceptable.
I mean, there is really nothing to stop Israel from engaging in another round of ethnic cleansing. There is, in fact, a great deal of talk that once the war against Iraq begins, Israel is going to take the opportunity and engage in another round of ethnic cleansings.
The only thing really that can stop this is not, of course, it is not the United States, it is not Great Britain. What is going to stop it is the understanding that there is going to be a backlash in the international civil society and.
CAPPELL: Now, I'm very gratified that in fact far larger numbers of - - following these petitions that were circulated by gentlemen such as you against Israel, and against -- well, not against Israel. You have a right to express your views against Israel. But against -- but favoring boycotting Israeli academic institutions -- far larger number of academics signed petitions supporting freedom of expression and supporting international interaction, and I noticed that some of the leading people who signed these petitions against Israel are now reconsidering and have retracted their opinions, and I think that's a good development.
I think the energy should be devoted towards supporting peace.
VERJEE: Sylvain Cappell, Shahid Alam, we'll continue our conversation in just a moment.
Remember, we'd like to hear what you think. What's your opinion? Drop us an e-mail. Q&A@CNN.Com.
Please, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VERJEE: Welcome back.
On Q&A, the controversy in the academic world over the sacking of two professors, simply because they're Israeli.
Still with us is Peter Fletcher, Sylvain Cappell and Shahid Alam.
Joining us now on the phone is Miriam Schlessinger. She's with Bar- Ilan University. She was actually one of those professors that was dismissed from being on the board of an academic journal.
Miriam, what happened?
MIRIAM SCHLESSINGER, BAR-ILAN UNIVERSITY: What happened is that I was on the editorial board of a journal called "The Translator: Studies in Intercultural Communications," which is edited by Mona Baker, who is a wonderful person and a good friend.
But Mona wrote to me and said that despite our friendship, she is asking me to resign because she can no longer tolerate the thought of having Israelis on her journal.
I refused to resign, and then she dismissed me.
VERJEE: Do you understand or appreciate the position that she has taken?
SCHLESSINGER: I appreciate her right to fight for what she considers appropriate, but I do not see how sacking me is going to achieve that aim.
VERJEE: What about other colleagues of yours? What kind of support have you had from them? I mean, I understand that some other people from other boards resigned as a protest.
SCHLESSINGER: Yes. When this happened, I actually shared this information only with one fellow board member.
He immediately notified Mona Baker that he was resigning. And disseminated this information on the e-mail list. Several people have resigned, I don't know if I should say in protest or in solidarity, but anyway they've resigned, and many people have expressed their desire for her to reconsider the move.
VERJEE: Shahid Alam, there was really not an enormous amount of public opposition in British universities to what went on here. Is that surprising to you?
ALAM: I -- I'm sorry, I didn't get the gist of your point.
VERJEE: That when this dismissal happened, when these two dismissal happened, it appears that there wasn't really a lot of opposition within British universities itself.
ALAM: Yes, OK.
VERJEE: . there wasn't a lot of public opposition to that. Were you surprised that it didn't happen?
ALAM: No, I wouldn't be surprised, because I think the focus is not on these individuals. The focus is on making a statement, a symbolic statement, and, you know, getting it across.
I think Israel, and Israeli academics, and Israeli institutions, must realize that the rest of the world now is beginning to see the enormity of what is going on there, and what has been going on there.
And, you know, simply, the heat is rising, and, you know, there are certain consequences. This opposition from international civil society is going to escalate.
VERJEE: Sylvain.
CAPPELL: You know, this sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, that -- this is news to me, but this was a journal of intra-cultural communications which decided that it couldn't take people from a different culture? This sounds like an academic joke of some kind.
ALAM: No, it's -- let me explain what I mean. You know, I mean, I think it is very unfortunate that for the last 50 years the world conscience has not made a statement about the Palestinians. The Palestinians have not been seen as victims, but in fact as terrorists. That is a most unfortunate situation.
And in fact, I would think that every time a Palestinian, out of despair, out of desperation, goes out and inflicts, you know, horrendous damage on Israelis, we bear responsibility because we have abandoned them. We have told them we don't care.
I think we have to make statements, we have to reassure them that while you face a very unequal fight, the rest of the world is joining in. The academic community is joining in.
VERJEE: OK. OK.
With us now in Tel Aviv is Gideon Toury, a professor at Tel Aviv University who was also dismissed from an academic journal, and Miriam Schlessinger, also, we spoke to her a little earlier.
We had a little difficulty in getting contact. I apologize to you both for that.
Gideon, your side of the story -- your version of what happened.
GIDEON TOURY, TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY: My story is very similar to Miriam's, only it happened about two weeks later.
I was warned in advance, because in the letter to Miriam Schlessinger, my name wasn't mentioned, but I waited, as I said, for two weeks, and then I got it.
I was also asked to resign, and I refused, so I was fired.
And it was definitely not as a honorable (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It was on the basis that I had an Israeli passport, not that I was representing an institute, because I am not representing any institute in any official way.
VERJEE: Were you shocked?
TOURY: Shocked? No, because I was expecting it.
I wasn't feeling very well about it, but that's understandable. Nobody would have.
VERJEE: Mona Baker's position has been, she's standing by it, and she's said, "I am not against Israeli nationals, per se, it's just the Israeli institutions, part of the Israeli state, which I absolutely deplore." That's in her words.
Your thoughts on her comments -- Miriam.
TOURY: This is not the only one.
SCHLESSINGER: Yes, could I respond to that? I understand that this is how she perceives it, but the bottom-line, I mean, the previous speaker spoke about a symbolic gesture and we're being singled out as representatives of institutions.
The bottom-line is, that no matter what I am, what I think, what I believe, what I say, what I teach, I have been dismissed because I am an Israeli living in Israel. And that's the end of it.
VERJEE: Gideon, is this an assault on academic freedom and should we see it as such?
TOURY: Definitely it is. I was started saying before, everybody has a right to sign any petition, to initiate any petition, to pursue any reasonable goal. It doesn't have to get to the point of activities against individuals on no matter what grounds, especially not on the grounds of nationality, race and sex or anything else of this kind.
I would almost say that I feel like a hostage. I would say that the Israeli academics may start feeling like hostages with an order to give away the authorities, and unless this is being done, they will execute one of the hostages every day. Now two of the hostages have already been executed, metaphorically speaking, and I'm sure there will be more like that.
VERJEE: Gideon Toury, Miriam Schlessinger -- also my thanks to Sylvain Cappell and Shahid Alam for a lively debate. Appreciate it.
We had planned to spend a lot more time with Gideon and Miriam, but we had some technical problems in Tel Aviv, so my apologies for that.
That's Q&A for now. Please have a great weekend. The news is next, here on CNN.
END
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