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CNN Live Saturday

Interviews With Josh Meyer, Jim Walsh

Aired July 13, 2002 - 12:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We begin this hour with the possibility of a terrorist training camp on U.S. soil, a camp that may have ties to al Qaeda. This according to reports in "The Los Angeles Times" and two leading Seattle newspapers. Earlier this week, the U.S. government warned of possible al Qaeda activities in four major U.S. cities: Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit and Seattle. In Seattle, newspapers now report FBI agents at a grand jury are focusing on several individuals there, individuals who may have taken part in a possible terrorist training camp held in Bly, Oregon back in 1999. The individuals are tied together by religion. They were members of the same mosque, and a radical sheik in England who is said to have links to al Qaeda.

They primary focus of the current investigation appears to be on a man named Semi Osman, who is now in custody on an immigration fraud charge. Reporter John Becker of affiliate KGW picks it up from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BECKER, KGW CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A southern Oregon horse ranch doubling as a training ground for terrorists. The former owner says the buyer sympathized with anti-government groups like the Freemen, but made no mention of radical Muslims.

JEFF WESSEL, FORMER RANCH OWNER: No, I don't have any reason to think that he had anything to do with terrorism, other than this stuff that's going on makes you think back and wonder.

BECKER (on camera): Local authorities confirmed they passed on their suspicions about the people and activities at this ranch to the FBI some three years ago.

SHERIFF TIM EVINGER, KLAMATH COUNTY, OREGON: Investigators for the sheriff's office in 1999 were doing preparation for Y2K when they happened upon some information that there may be some folks training in the area or possibly target practicing of Middle Eastern descent.

BECKER (voice-over): A Seattle paper says the FBI inquiry centers on a group of militant Muslims in the Emerald City, a group connected to these men already jailed for their roles in terrorist plots, a group with suspected ties to this man, now in England. U.S. authorities believe this Islamic leader responsible for recruiting followers for terrorist training camps. But why set up camp in Oregon? A terrorism expert says this remote sage land near a town with only a couple of hundred people makes a perfect hiding place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Josh Meyer is co-author of the story appearing in today's "Los Angeles Times." He joins us by the telephone from Washington. Josh, thanks for joining us.

JOSH MEYER, L.A. TIMES: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well, if there was alleged suspicious activity going on back in 1999 and investigators came across it then, why is it that they were not equipped to do anything about it at that time?

MEYER: Well, that's a good question. We don't know exactly what kind of investigation they did back then; we just know that after 9/11, the investigation was picked up rather significantly here with some indications that some of the mosque members were tied to a man in London named Abu-Hamza al-Masri (ph), who is believed to be a recruiter for al Qaeda.

WHITFIELD: Now, reportedly the type of suspicious activity taking place out there involved gunfire that was heard, people riding on horses, which really is not that untypical -- atypical in the northwest section of the country there, but what is it about this particular activity that raised suspicion?

MEYER: Well, I think the fact that they were Middle Easterners engaging in target practice -- if that's the case, and I'm not sure the FBI concluded that that has -- indeed happened, but I think that's what got people nervous was that they were engaging in target practice.

But right now, the FBI is trying to find all of the people that may have been involved in that 1999 Bly, Oregon location, and at least question them and find out what did go on over there.

WHITFIELD: Now, is it your discovery during your reporting that some of the occupants or residents of that ranch were American citizens as well?

MEYER: Yes. Yes, in fact, some of the people in the Seattle -- alleged, you know, Seattle cell is what they're calling it, are American Muslims who converted to Islam. One of them converted in prison, it is believed.

WHITFIELD: And what more do we know about those citizens?

MEYER: Well, there's two brothers, for instance, and then there is a third American Muslim. And -- but authorities say that they're also investigating a significant number of other people as well. The FBI in Seattle, Denver, Detroit, Washington, D.C. and headquarters offices are involved, as are our offices in Canada and London. But you know, they are looking at -- in fact, one of the guys that when they searched his apartment, they found on indications that he was reading up on how to poison water supplies.

WHITFIELD: Now, what are your sources telling you about the increase of activity post 9/11 at that ranch?

MEYER: Oh, I don't know if there's been any activity at the ranch after September 11. I think most of the activity occurred in 1999, which is why they're trying to back-trace it right now. I don't think the ranch right now is being used for any kind of terrorist activity.

WHITFIELD: All right. Now, who is occupying that ranch now then?

MEYER: I think it's farm land. You know, the people that are there now say they don't know anything about any kind of jihad training camp at all. It's owned -- I mean, it's being used pretty much as a farm.

WHITFIELD: Is it your indication through talking to your federal sources that because of their heightened awareness of the activity back in 1999 that they are now feeling like they are in need of taking this very seriously, that perhaps this was some sort of training camp?

MEYER: Yes. Well, I think right now the activities of this alleged cell, as they're calling it, have moved from the ranch in Oregon to Seattle, and they think that, you know, that they're gathering in mosques there and they may be planning terrorist activities. But again, right now they're really just investigating to see the nature of what these guys were doing and find out exactly if there are any terrorist plans afoot.

WHITFIELD: All right. Josh Meyer, thank you very much for joining us with the "L.A. Times," joining us on the telephone from Washington. Appreciate it.

MEYER: You're very welcome.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's get more now insight about this possible Seattle cell. Jim Walsh is a research fellow at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government and he has written extensively about terrorism, and he joins us now from Boston. Well, thanks for joining us.

JIM WALSH, JOHN F. KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Absolutely, Fredricka. Happy to be here.

WHITFIELD: If indeed this is terrorist activity, would this be typical of the type of training ground that would take place if it were to take place in this country?

WALSH: Well, I think certainly if it is a training camp, this would be a major story, but we're not quite at that point yet. We want to hear what the evidence that's going to be presented to the grand jury and the indictment that's offered, then we'll have a little more information.

If indeed there was training and other sorts of activities taking place back in 1999, hopefully there will be physical evidence that the FBI and others can collect to be able to connect the dots, if you will, to show that this was, in fact, a training camp. We're still -- the evidence presented so far, we're still not quite there yet, but presumably, if it was a training camp, then they would have been doing either general training or training for a particular operation, trying to recreate the conditions that they would want to simulate so that later they could carry out a terrorist attack in an American city.

WHITFIELD: And let's talk further about that potential physical evidence. As you just heard Josh Meyer with "The L.A. Times" report just a moment ago that there perhaps was some evidence of any type of planned tampering with the water supply. This in your view from your studies of al Qaeda or other terrorist cells would be typical behavior, or plausible behavior?

WALSH: Well, unfortunately just documents that indicate poisoning of water supply or looking into nuclear weapons -- those documents are suggestive, but they don't get you very far. Because it's easy enough to pull a document out of a library or off the Internet. I think we'd really want a little more than that. We'd want to see if there's something in the soil or in the surrounding farm land that would indicate chemicals or ammunition or sorts of things being used. That would be a much better tell-tale sign, I think.

WHITFIELD: And when we talk about al Qaeda cells, how many people are we talking about, and what is comprised of that cell in terms of leadership?

WALSH: Well, you know, I think we have to be very careful when we talk about the concept of sleeper cells. I mean, it's scary to me as an idea, and I'm sure the folks waking up today in Seattle looking at the front page story are very nervous. You know, Seattle had an episode a little while ago where there were reports that the Space Needle was going to be a target, and this just I'm sure will add to their anxiety.

And when you talk about sleeper cells, that gets people looking distrustfully at one another. There are all sorts of numbers offered, even as high as 5,000 al Qaeda sympathizers here in the U.S. I would not go by those numbers. Those are more guesstimates than they are anything else.

I think we have to be cautious. If there are a lot of sleeper cells in the United States, then one of the questions we would want to ask ourselves is why have there not been more attacks here since September 11?

WHITFIELD: All right. Thank you very much. Jim Walsh of Harvard University, thank you for joining us from Boston, appreciate it.

WALSH: Thank you, Fredricka. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com