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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Will the Government Turn Civilians Into Spies?; New Terror Tactic Strikes West Bank; Samantha Runnion Has Been Kidnapped in California
Aired July 16, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, GUEST HOST: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: From letter carriers to meter readers, will the government turn millions of Americans into spies?
A deadly bus ambush in the West Bank: a new terror tactic?
Another stolen child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER: We just want our baby back, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: What can you do to protect yours?
Ted Williams's final wish: Did he choose to be frozen?
And a young girl caught in the middle, as her parents battle over the Pledge of Allegiance.
It's Tuesday, July 16, 2002. I'm Kate Snow in Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off tonight.
Federal authorities have a controversial plan for staying one step ahead of terrorists, but would it turn us into a nation of snoops? CNN Justice Department correspondent Kelli Arena has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some critics liken it to "1984," George Orwell's novel and the subsequent movie. They warn "Big Brother" will be watching.
REP. BOB BARR (R-GA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Why do we need to have a government pushing and pushing and pushing people and now funding a program to encourage people to snoop and to report? I think that's a very slippery slope.
ARENA: What has critics riled is Operation Tips, a nationwide program to recruit your neighborhood mail carrier and millions of other Americans -- including truckers, train conductors and utility employees -- to report suspicious activity. It is part of the government's fight against terrorism.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We actually need the citizens of America to be active participants in developing information so that we learn in advance. We have the ability to prevent, not just to reconstruct, a terrorism attack.
ARENA: The Justice Department is not saying much. Limited information can be found on some government Web sites. Justice officials say that's because the first stage of the program won't be launched until late summer or early fall.
(on camera): But critics already have lots of questions. Will there be safeguards to prevent an invasion of privacy, especially for those who may have access to someone's home? How will information collected be kept secure, and how long will it be stored?
RACHEL KING, ACLU: Say some, you know, bogus tip got into some file somewhere. How may that come back and haunt you later on?
ARENA (voice-over): The program will utilize workers who have set routes and routines which position them to notice anything out of the ordinary. They will call an 800 number, and their information will be entered into a database made available to state and local law enforcement. Some argue that could inundate the intelligence community with useless tips. Supporters say it could save lives.
PAUL ROSENZWEIG, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The ideal aspect of this program, if it works the way it's conceived, will be to bring that first tip in in a way that the FBI can recognize it and use it, or -- or other law enforcement. I use the FBI kind of generically -- and use it.
ARENA: The strong reaction to the plan caught Justice officials by surprise, but it underscores the fine line the government has to walk in fighting the war on terrorism and not violating civil rights.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: President Bush today took the wraps off a new national strategy for homeland security. It's aimed at preventing terrorist attacks, reducing the nation's vulnerability to terrorism and minimizing the damage from attacks that do occur. The plan calls for measures to protect the U.S. food supply and to build vaccine stockpiles. So-called "red teams" of federal agents would try to think like terrorists, brainstorming ways to attack U.S. targets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, DIR. HOMELAND SECURITY: Terrorists are strategic actors. They choose their targets deliberately, based on observed weaknesses in our defense and preparations. They use speed and surprise to terrorize. Protecting ourselves require that we be just as flexible and just as nimble, with the ability to spot the gaps in our defenses and just as quickly fill them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: A federal grand jury today re-indicted accused September 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. Prosecutors wanted to refine the charges against the so-called 20th hijacker to clear the way for a possible death penalty. Moussaoui was already charged with four capital crimes. The new indictment now adds aggravating circumstances.
More arrests in the war on terrorism. An al Qaeda connection has Spanish authorities concerned.
CNN Madrid bureau chief Al Goodman reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Spanish police say one of the three al Qaeda suspects, identified as Gashub al- Avrashkalun (ph), traveled widely in the United States in 1997. He took far more pictures with his home video camera than a normal tourist. Two of the videotapes, officials say, show the World Trade Center towers four years before hijacked airplanes crashed into them, pictures from various angles of the two towers and from various distances away from the buildings. On other tapes, San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge, with the home video camera giving special attention to the bridge's support pillars.
There was similar footage of New York's Brooklyn Bridge, and also pictures of the Sears Tower in Chicago and Disneyland and Universal Studios in California, home videos that are raising a lot of questions.
Al Goodman, CNN, Madrid.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Are the latest arrests an indication that al Qaeda is poised to strike again? Is the United States readying a strike of its own against Iraq?
Joining me is former CIA director James Woolsey here in the studio. Thanks for coming in.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you.
SNOW: Three suspected al Qaeda members found in Spain, arrested. Is this another sign or signal that al Qaeda is everywhere?
WOOLSEY: Well, they are perhaps not everywhere, but close to everywhere. And my first reaction is bravo for the Spaniards. They've arrested 20 now and think half of them may have some tie to September 11. They've -- other European countries and friends and allies around the world -- the Italians have ought caught a number. I think we're going to have to work this way for a long time, years, maybe even into decades. SNOW: One of these three men reportedly took videos -- you just saw reference to that -- of key U.S. landmarks, including, for example, the Golden Gate Bridge. That's got to scare a lot of Americans. How worried should we be?
WOOLSEY: Well, I think it's inevitable that there will be terrorist attacks, from al Qaeda probably, in the U.S. in the years to come. The key thing is first to try to keep them from being catastrophic, to look for the parts of our infrastructure which are analogous to the flimsy cockpit doors that were on -- before they were fortified or started being fortified after September 11. So that even though terrorist events may occur, we keep them from taking down part of the electricity grid or taking down the Golden Gate Bridge. And that's going to require a full examination of our whole infrastructure and incentives for modernizing it and how we can do that in such a way as to make it more resilient.
SNOW: Let me take you to Iraq. A lot of reports recently that the administration is preparing plans, reportedly a lot of various plans the Pentagon is looking at. You're obviously got a lot of friends still in high places. Do you think we're close -- the U.S. is close to launching some kind of attack?
WOOLSEY: I don't know because none of them have told me, but I hope we're close because every month that goes by, Saddam gets closer to having nuclear weapons. He already has chemical and bacteriological and he's also got some missiles of longer range than he's supposed to have under the cease-fire and the U.N. resolution from '91. So I think every month that goes by, this gets to be a harder and a more dangerous problem. So from my point of view, the sooner the better.
SNOW: You used to head the CIA, so take me inside Iraq. Do you have any sense for how much information, intelligence-wise, is being gathered inside Iraq? And has that changed since the end of the Persian Gulf war?
WOOLSEY: No, I think our real ace in the hole here is the Iraqi defectors. A lot of things you see reported in the press, some of them recently, as the CIA has learned, have been in the press before and have been there because Iraqi defectors have come out. And they get together with the Iraqi National Congress, sometimes other groups, but usually with the INC. Some have been the sources for very detailed articles in "The New Yorker" and "Vanity Fair" and other places. It is quite an income -- I mean, quite a stream of information.
SNOW: But on the other hand, there are reports that the U.S. intelligence within Iraq is not so good, not so strong, not a lot of operatives on the ground.
WOOLSEY: Well, that's probably right. It's hard to have American citizens in a country where we don't have representation. All the more reason to be -- have a close working relationship with people who are talking to the defectors. You know, during the cold war, an awful lot of the information we got was from Soviet defectors or people -- Soviets who volunteered to work with us, not people who were recruited in some crafty fashion by CIA case officers. And the same thing's happening here. We're -- you know, Thomas Jefferson is doing this recruiting for us. These are people who want freedom.
SNOW: James Woolsey, former CIA director, always a pleasure to have you on.
WOOLSEY: Good to be with you.
SNOW: Thanks for your insight.
New York City is struggling with the aftermath of terror. Ever since September 11, there's been debate over what, if anything, should be built at the World Trade Center site. Today six options were unveiled. CNN's Jason Carroll takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The recovery process at ground zero is over. Now it's time to rebuild. The question many New Yorkers have been asking: What to rebuild? Now a preliminary answer. Architects commissioned by the city and state have proposed six designs for the 16-acre site.
JOHN WHITEHEAD, LOWER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION: We will rebuild. It is now not a question of whether but a question of how.
CARROLL: Memorial Plaza includes a 79-story tower and a memorial marked by footprints, two squares where the towers once stood, and eight acres of open space. Memorial Square has an 80-story circular skyscraper, a 10-acre park area with pools of water in the symbolic footprints. Memorial Triangle has the tallest proposed tower, at 85 stories, with 5 acres of open space. Memorial Garden has an 80-story building and 4 open acres, including the tower footprints. Memorial Park would have two 70-story buildings and a 6-acre park, with a single sculpted column. A similar column would be found at Memorial Promenade, along with two 63-story buildings and a park that stretches along the west side of the site.
LOU TOMSON, LOWER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION: All these plans represent a beginning, as the chairman said, designed to spark an informed public debate about the future of lower Manhattan. We have not considered all the possibilities yet, nor have we discovered all the answers.
CARROLL: None of the proposed buildings are higher than the 110- story twin towers because officials say it would not be marketable. But all of them restore the 11 million square feet of office space and 600,000 square feet of retail space lost during the terrorist attack.
KATHERINE WYLDE, NYC PARTNERSHIP: It reestablishes lower Manhattan as the nation's third-largest business district, and it provides for bringing back the jobs we've lost.
CARROLL (on camera): The six proposals will be narrowed to three in September and then to one in December. Whatever proposal is eventually decided upon, it's expected to take several years before the buildings are finally completed.
Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Here's your chance now to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day: What's the best World Trade Center rebuilding proposal? You can check out all those proposals just mentioned at CNN.com/wolf and then lodge your vote.
While you're there, let us know what you're thinking. Send us your comments, and we'll read some of them on the air each day. Also, you can read our daily on-line column at CNN.com/wolf.
Now to the West Bank, where Palestinian gunmen dressed as Israeli soldiers attacked a bus carrying ultra-orthodox settlers today, killing at least seven people. CNN Jerusalem bureau chief Mike Hanna joins us live with more -- Mike.
MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, as you say, 7 Israeli civilians killed in this Palestinian attack, as many as 20 injured. At least 8 of those injured are said to be in a serious condition. Among the dead, a grandmother, her son-in-law and her grandchild.
The attack came as there was a top-level meeting in New York aimed at finding more effective ways of mediating in this ongoing conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The first major Palestinian attack in almost four weeks, the target, a busload of Israelis on their way to the West Bank settlement of Emanuel. An explosive device was detonated alongside the bulletproof vehicle. As the bus stopped, a group of Palestinian gunmen emerged from the bush next to the road and opened fire. Among the casualties, children and at least one pregnant woman. Police later found three unexploded grenades inside the bus, saying if they had detonated, the number of deaths and injuries would have been even higher.
The attack came as a new diplomatic initiative was being launched, in New York representatives from the U.S., the U.N., the EU and Russia sitting down to formulate a common position on how best to provide mediation efforts in the Middle East conflict. Even before the Emanuel attack, few in the region held any great expectations as to the outcome of the talks.
AKIVA ELDAR, ISRAELI POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I'm looking at what's going on in New York. The bottom line is that, well, they are aware of the fact that the international community and the United States cannot just afford to sit on the fence and watch what's happening here. I mean, the risk is too high. So they have to do something. This something is blah, blah, is talking.
MAHDI ABDUL HADI, PALESTINIAN ACADEMIC: There's no real hope and serious confidence that these people can deliver anything, as long as Israel continues its military incursion and nobody's stopping Israeli aggression.
CARROLL: The contention of the Israeli government: that its troop deployments in the West Bank are necessitated by the ever- present threat of terror attacks by Palestinians. The latest attack on Israelis in the West Bank evidence that despite the best intentions of mediators, violence continues to defy diplomacy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Three separate radical Palestinian groups have claimed responsibility for the attack, among them the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, an armed offshoot of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement. There has been no independent confirmation of any of these claims. Israel continuing to search for those responsible, continuing to investigate how this attack took place in an area in which security was intense -- Kate.
SNOW: Mike Hanna live in Jerusalem tonight. Thank you.
In Northern Ireland, the Irish Republican Army has issued an unprecedented apology for killing hundreds of civilians during 30 years of violence. The guerrilla group's statement notes that Sunday is the 30th anniversary of "Bloody Friday," the IRA bombing in Belfast that killed nine people, most of them civilians. About 2,000 people have been killed in the IRA's campaign against British control of Northern Ireland.
A 5-year-old girl stolen from her own front yard, and a mother is pleading for her return.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Thelma Gutierrez. Coming up, new information on the missing 5-year-old girl in Orange County. We'll have more on those developments.
SNOW: Plus, a custody battle stretching into the afterlife, the final will of Ted Williams.
Also, the battle over the Pledge. The man who's fighting against it says he's protecting his daughter. Now hear what her mother has to say. She'll join us live. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The words "under God" were not part of the original Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892 by a Baptist minister, Francis Bellamy. "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954, after a campaign by which group? The Freemasons, Knights of Columbus, Rotary Foundation or YMCA? The answer coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
In Florida, Miami police are trying to figure out why a young mother apparently drove her SUV into Biscayne Bay, killing herself and her 5-year-old daughter. The woman's infant son survived. He is in critical condition. Police say the family sat inside the parked car for about 20 minutes before the woman suddenly accelerated, driving 50 feet along a seawall before plunging into the water.
Police in Lincoln, Nebraska, are looking into a possible sighting of missing Salt Lake City teenager Elizabeth Smart. Witnesses reported seeing a girl in a mini-van last Thursday who could match Smart's description. They told investigators the girl was crying and possibly being held against her will. So far, police say they have no reason to connect the van sighting to the Smart case. Smart, of course, was kidnapped at gunpoint from her bedroom on June 5.
Police are combing the greater Los Angeles area for a 5-year-old girl who was abducted by a stranger from right in front of her home last night. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is live in Stanton, California, with more on the case of Samantha Runnion. Thelma?
GUTIERREZ: Well, Kate, there are 150 law enforcement officials who are now looking for 5-year-old Samantha Runnion, and 30 FBI agents have now also joined in that search. We understand they brought bloodhounds in to go through the neighborhood. They've canvassed the neighborhood. And they're also doing -- they're running parole and probation checks on the people who live nearby. And the border patrol, we're told, has also been informed. They've been given pictures of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion.
Now, it happened about 7:00 o'clock Pacific time last night. Shortly before that time, Samantha and her 5-year-old friend were sitting on this wall. They were playing a board game about 125 feet from Samantha's home. Apparently, a man in a green Honda drove past. He came in. He asked the girls to help him find his puppy. Then apparently, he stopped his car. He grabbed Samantha. He threw her into the car, and he sped away.
SARAH ANN, WITNESS: He was stealing here, and she was screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She -- "stealing her," meaning he grabbed her and he brought her to the car?
SARAH ANN: Yeah. Well, he was holding her, and he threw her in the car pretty quick. Then he left really quick.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What was she doing at the time?
SARAH ANN: What?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What was she doing when he grabbed her?
SARAH ANN: She said, "Help! Tell my grandma!" And I did.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She said, "Help. Tell my grandma."
SARAH ANN: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And that's all she said?
SARAH ANN: Yeah. Then she left, or she -- the bad guy took her. But I don't know where she went.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: Samantha's 5-year-old friend was the only witness. Investigators say that she has been an excellent witness. She got a description of the suspect. He's described as a Hispanic male between the ages of 25 and 40. He has black hair. It is greased back. And he has a thin black mustache. He was wearing a powder-blue button- down shirt and was driving a light green two-door vehicle. The friend told investigators that she saw an "H" at the back of the car, and investigators think that it may be a Honda or an Acura. It also has chrome wheels.
This morning, Samantha's mother spoke up, pleading for her daughter's safe return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER: Baby, I love you. You are such a good girl. You are so clever. Please ask your captor to let you go. We love you. She's my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Please let her go! She is such a sweet child! We don't want vengeance, we just want our baby back, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTIERREZ: Dozens of volunteers have actually volunteered their time to pass out the flyers that you see right here. Samantha will turn 6 ten days from now. She is 5 years old. She's three feet, six inches tall. She weighs 40 pounds. She has blond, curly hair, and her front tooth is missing.
Her parents were at work at the time of the abduction. Apparently, her grandmother was taking care of her. And some of the neighbors told us there were maybe 20 adults in the courtyard area, which is right behind me here, but unfortunately, the girls were playing right out here in front, and no one was able to see Samantha as she was abducted.
Kate, back to you.
SNOW: Thelma, this is such a terrible, terrible story, and that little girl, 5 years old, the one who witnessed this, seems so adult.
Stories like those of Elizabeth Smart and now this story, Samantha Runnion, can leave parents feeling fearful and helpless. But there are some things you can do to protect your kids. We're going to talk about that now with Ernie Allen of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
It just tears at your heart, that story, another on top of -- it just seems like we've had so many. How common is it? Let's just establish the baseline. It's not that common for a stranger to take a child.
ERNIE ALLEN, NAT'L CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: It is not that common. The FBI reported that there were about 700,000 total missing children entered into their database last year, but of that number, only about 4,000 to 5,000 involved non-family abductors. And only 200 to 300 a year are cases like Samantha's.
SNOW: And when you break that down, I think you've said it's five to six a week.
ALLEN: Right.
SNOW: So it's a little bit -- a little bit -- more manageable, certainly terrible, though. What should parents do? What can they tell -- as far as strangers go, what should they tell their kids? I -- you know, we were always told never to talk to strangers. Is that still the rule?
ALLEN: Well, it's good advice, but there's more to it than that. It's very important that parents supervise small children, secondly, that parents talk to kids about their personal safety and practice with them. The concept of check first -- if someone approaches them or touches them or makes them feel uncomfortable in some way, it's very important that they tell Mom or Dad or tell some trusted adult.
SNOW: Amazing how much that other 5-year-old that we just heard from seemed to understand about what was going on, which I guess points to even a 5-year-old has some level of understanding that this isn't the right thing that's going on. And should they be yelling, screaming, trying to get away? Is that important?
ALLEN: Absolutely. Kids need to make noise. They need to let people know that they're being taken against their will. They need to say, "This man is not my father" and bring attention to it.
SNOW: How does it change if it's a family member? Because I know a lot of the cases that you're talking about -- you just mentioned the numbers -- involve family members coming after a kid.
ALLEN: Well, no question. And in most of those, the child is torn and the child is accompanying someone who is a father or mother. But even in these stranger cases -- Samantha's case is very typical, in that these offenders seduce the child. They trick the child. Children have to understand and parents have to make sure they understand that just because somebody says "Help me find my dog" or provide directions, that kids don't automatically do that, that they say, "Let me check first. Let me talk to Mom or Dad before I go with you."
SNOW: One of the things I found interesting is how much parents don't know when this happens about their kids. You would think people would know the height, the weight, the eye color. But you've found that sometimes parents don't know that information.
ALLEN: Kate, we just did some national research, and what we found is that thousands of parents aren't able to tell you all of the descriptive information about their child.
SNOW: So what should they do?
ALLEN: Well, they need to have it. They need to have a good current photo of their child. They need to have written down in a safe place the child's height and weight and eye color and hair color so that they can provide that information to the police and move very quickly.
SNOW: Dental records? Medical records?
ALLEN: We believe that parents should get those medical records and dental records and have them on hand.
SNOW: Some cases obviously get more attention than others. We just saw Elizabeth Smart on the screen a moment ago. She has obviously gotten so much attention. I wonder if you think coverage of those kind of cases -- Elizabeth Smart, for example -- raises attention on missing children, or does it just highlight that some families seem to have more sway with the media than other families?
ALLEN: Well, Kate, it does raise attention on the problem, but our commitment is to provide that kind of visibility for every missing child because media works. Photo works. When we can disseminate the photo of a child quickly -- somebody knows where Samantha is. Somebody can provide that vital information to bring the child home.
SNOW: Ernie Allen with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Some valuable information. We just saw that picture one more time there. Thank you so much for coming in.
ALLEN: Thank you, Kate.
SNOW: A baseball legend weighs in on his afterlife, and a basketball star goes to jail.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Kate, I'm John Zarrella in Inverness, Florida. Ted Williams's will is filed and made public. We'll tell you what the "Splendid Splinter" wanted when we come back.
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Josie Karp in Philadelphia, where tonight Allen Iverson is a free man. He is, however, due in court on Monday. We will detail the basketball star's day here at Philadelphia police headquarters coming up.
SNOW: And dude, he's a strike breaker! The Dell guy gets nabbed by the union.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Welcome back, I'm Kate Snow. Coming up, the battle over the body of Ted Williams. Did his will clear up the debate over his final wishes? First, a check of some stories making news now.
Despite Wall Street's wild up-and-down ride of recent days, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan says the economy is on the road to full recovery. But, he says, some key bumps remain -- effects of last year's recession and recent corporate accounting scandals. And just as important, Greenspan says the wounds from corporate greed and the stock dive will take some time to heal.
Greenspan's generally upbeat assessment helped stocks erase early losses, but the Dow lost more than 160 points in its seventh straight losing session. At one point, the Dow was down as much as 232 points. And this late development, Intel, the world's largest chip-making company, says it is cutting 4,000 jobs. That's almost 5 percent of its workforce. The move came after the company posted lower-than- expected second-quarter earnings.
The Montreal Expos are being sued by 14 former minority partners of the Major League team. They're accusing baseball commissioner, Bud Selig and former Expos' owner, Jeffrey Loria, of mail fraud and wire fraud. And they warn they'll action to stop any effort to move the Expos or fold the team. This year, Loria sold the Expos to a company owned by the other 29 Major League teams.
In other baseball news, Ted Williams did request in his will to be cremated, but according to his executor of that will, Williams later said he wanted his body to be frozen. Williams' will was made public today, but the family feud over the slugger's body appears far from over. CNN's John Zarrella joins us now live from Inverness, Florida, with more -- John.
ZARRELLA: Kate, that's for sure, far from over. Neither side can agree on what ultimately will happen with the body of the splendid splinter, the great Ted Williams, the last man in Major League Baseball to hit 400. We got a copy of the will -- the Last Will and Testament this afternoon and in it -- let me read to you exactly what Ted Williams said -- he said, "I direct that my remains be cremated and my ashes a sprinkled at sea off the coast of Florida, where the water is very deep." But as we all know now, his son, John Henry and his daughter, Claudia, right after his death on July 5, had his body shipped out to Arizona to be frozen at a laboratory out there. They have maintained and the executor of the will has maintained today that in fact their father, Ted, did say after the will was filed that he changed his mind, that he wanted his body to be frozen.
Now, Barbara -- Bobby-Jo Ferrell, his oldest daughter has been fighting that, saying that's not true. There's no proof of that. And in fact, she wants her father's body brought back to be cremated and the ashes to, of course, be sprinkled over the Florida waters.
Their attorney this afternoon, late this afternoon, telling us at CNN that in fact they have not seen any documents that support the assertions of the brother and sister that Ted wanted his body to be frozen and they're waiting to see if those documents exist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD FITZPATRICK, ATTORNEY FOR BOBBY-JO WILLIAMS FERRELL: It would take something, I think, signed by Ted Williams or some other clear indication that he had modified his intention after December of 1996, when he signed that Last Will and Testament.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: So, where we stand now is that the executor of the will has now petitioned the Florida court here in Citrus County for help, saying, "You decide Florida court. What do we do? Do we bring the body back or do we leave Ted Williams' body frozen in Arizona?" There's 20 days for both sides to file arguments on either side, for discovery process to take place. And so, this battle over the remains of Ted Williams is going to continue on for some time yet -- Kate.
SNOW: John, such a dark and strange story. Thank you.
Joining us to talk a little bit more about this, in our New York studio, is Lisa Bloom. She is with Court TV, with the daily coverage program, "Closing Arguments."
Lisa, thanks for joining us.
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: Thank you.
SNOW: Let me start with this question -- is this common for people to be arguing like this over a will? I mean I guess you hear stories about families having big debates like this, but I've never heard one like this before.
BLOOM: Well, you're right, Kate. Usually, they're arguing about money. Usually, the person cut out of the will is saying that that was done wrongfully and that they should be getting more money under the will. This is exactly the opposite. Bobby-Jo, who is cut out of this will -- and I read the will -- and she is disinherited entirely. She's the one who says the will should be enforced. They're arguing about the disposition of the remains. The essential question for the court is going to be what were Ted Williams' wishes.
SNOW: Which contract is more binding? Does one have more legal power than the other? When I say contract, I mean the written will versus the verbal exchange that the executor of the will said that he had with Mr. Williams. Which one has more weight in court?
BLOOM: Every state is going to look at the written will above an oral statement. Many states won't even look at an oral statement, but apparently, Florida is going to have to take a look at the oral statements that were allegedly made. But you know, Kate, the whole purpose of having wills is so that we can speak from the grave as to what our wishes are. If Ted Williams indeed did change his mind, I wonder why his attorneys didn't suggest that he have a codicil, or an amendment to the will to memorialize, in writing, his change of mind.
SNOW: How does the exclusion -- you mentioned Bobby-Jo. How does her exclusion from the will play into this because you might think that some of the other siblings now would have a stronger case because they're in the will after all and she's not.
BLOOM: Right, well, the will says, "I have purposely and deliberately eliminated my daughter, Barbara Jo Ferrell from this will. It is my intent that she shall be deemed to have predeceased me," i.e. it is as if she were dead. Nevertheless, she's sticking to enforce the first sentence of the will, which says, "I direct that my remains be cremated" and that he be sprinkled at sea off the coast of Florida where the water is very deep.
What that says to me, Kate, is, I think, that first sentence was probably written by Ted Williams himself not by an attorney. It's in plain English.
SNOW: I want to take a listen, real quick, to something Frank Brothers said. He's the former caretaker for Mr. Williams. He talked about what Mr. Williams had expressed to him as far as what he wanted done with his body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK BROTHERS, WILLIAMS' CARETAKER: I just got done making Ted breakfast and John Henry came up and was -- I was making him breakfast and he brought up, to his dad, about, you know, when you die, how about we'll freeze your body in cryogenics. And Ted told him -- he said, "Are you crazy?" He said, "Well, Dad, we don't have to do your whole body. We can just cut your head off and do your head." He said, "What are you nuts?"
You know, I mean, Ted was immanent about it. He didn't want to be frozen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: He says he didn't want to be frozen. Is he going to have to come and testify now, do we think?
BLOOM: Well, here's what I think. The Florida court is either going to put his will into effect within 20 days and have him cremated or we're going to have a big will contest along the lines of Anna Nicole Smith and a lot of the will contests that we've seen on Court TV. Either all of the evidence is going to come in from everyone who says he spoke to them on this cremation subject one way or the other or the case will simply be thrown out early.
SNOW: Lisa Bloom with Court TV, the daytime trial coverage program, "Closing Arguments." Thanks so much for being with us, appreciate it.
Staying with sports for a little bit now. The autopsy report on St. Louis Cardinals pitcher, Darryl Kile is out. The Cook County, Illinois medical examiner's office says that Kile died of narrowing of the arteries to the heart. Kile was found dead in a Chicago hotel room last month, while the Cards were in the city to play the Cubs.
And in pro basketball, Philadelphia 76er, Allen Iverson, is now out of jail. He was arraigned after turning himself in on felony charges. For the latest on that, we go to Josie Karp, of "CNN SPORTS" -- hi, Josie.
KARP: Hi, Kate. Allen Iverson spent about 11 hours here at Philadelphia Police headquarters today before finally leaving around 4:20 this afternoon in the same green minivan that he arrived in at around 5:30 a.m. During all of that time, he spent being processed as any other prisoner would in terms of being arrested and that meant he was fingerprinted. He had to pose for a mug shot. He was given an identification number. And then finally, around 4:00 p.m. Eastern, he went before a bail commissioner for an arraignment. He looked tired and drawn. He spoke only one word and that was to say, "hello." His attorney, however, Richard Sprague, did speak on his client's behalf and he actually departed from normal procedure. Although it wasn't necessary to enter in any plea during this arraignment, his attorney said that he wanted everyone to know that his client intends to plead a strong and definite not guilty. His attorney then went on to detail an agreement that had been worked out with the district attorney's office whereby Iverson would sign a $10,000 sign on bond. He would then be released. And he won't actually have to pay that $10,000 unless he fails to show up for a preliminary hearing, which is scheduled for 8:00 a.m. on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYLVESTER JOHNSON, PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: We did our jobs, although we're criticized for that. I think the district attorney did her job. She's, you know -- probably she was criticized for that. It is now in the hands of the criminal justice system. It will go in front of a judge. Anything other than that, there's no more that I can possibly say at this point. It is now out of the custody of the Philadelphia Police Department and he's in the hands of the criminal justice system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARP: At the preliminary hearing, the district attorney's office is expected to have to give evidence supporting the 14 charges against Allen Iverson and a judge will then determine how many of those charges will actually be prosecuted. One important factor is that the police commissioner said at this time, he does not believe that police officers have found the alleged weapon in this case and that could be a determining factor, just how far this actually goes -- Kate.
SNOW: Josie Karp continuing to follow it for us in Philadelphia. Thanks.
He fought to take The Pledge of Allegiance out of his child's classroom or at least certain words of it. Now, hear another side to the story from the child's mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, you're getting' a Dell.
ANNOUNCER: Easy to buy, easy to own...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: And learn why the Dell dude is being punished for being in a commercial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Earlier we asked -- the words "under God" were added to the Pledge after a campaign by which group? The answer, the Knights of Columbus. After two years of being lobbied by the Knights of Columbus during the anti-Communist era, Congress adopted the phrase "under God."
The legal battle over whether The Pledge of Allegiance is constitutional has touched off a national debate. It's also exposed a parental feud. The suit was brought by Michael Newdow, whose 8-year- old daughter says The Pledge of Allegiance at school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL NEWDOW, PLEDGE OPPONENT: I, as a parent, have a right to send my child to a public school without religious indoctrination. So -- and that still exists. And I still have that right and that's what this case is about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Newdow's daughter, however, lives with her mother most of the time, Sandra Banning, who takes a very different position on The Pledge of Allegiance. Sandy Banning joins us with her lawyer, Paul Sullivan, here in the studio.
Thanks for being with us. We did also speak with Michael Newdow today. And we will get to his comments in a moment. Let me start with why you're coming out now. This is a few weeks ago, last month, actually, this ruling came down. Why did you get a lawyer? Why did you want to come out and talk?
SANDY BANNING, MOTHER OF GIRL IN PLEDGE DISPUTE: Well, what started it all was the decision by the court and how I believe that the decision represents my daughter as an atheist and I wanted to correct that statement and set the record straight. That was our goal.
SNOW: What has she said to you about this? Does she know about the decision? Is she aware of it?
BANNING: Yes, she does know. She talked to her father on the phone and she has seen him one time on television. So she is aware of the decision. But she actually commented to me -- her response was, "That's OK, Mom, because even if they do change The Pledge of Allegiance, I'll still say, `under God' and no one will know I'm breaking the law."
SNOW: So she herself has never had a problem...
BANNING: No...
SNOW: ... saying The Pledge of Allegiance?
BANNING: ... she never has.
SNOW: We did talk to the father of your child, Michael Newdow today. He says essentially that you're the one bringing the daughter into this. Let me read you a quote from what he said to us -- an e- mail to us today. "I have repeatedly made it clear that this is my lawsuit, not my daughter's. I have done everything I could to distance her from the controversy and to conceal her identity (as I did in all of my court papers). I'm deeply disappointed," he went on, "that she's been otherwise brought into the controversy, and I will continue to do what I can to keep her out." He's saying he's deeply disturbed that you're even talking about the daughter.
BANNING: Well, I think that the record shows that he is using her and claiming that she's been harmed by reciting The Pledge of Allegiance and I want to correct that statement.
SNOW: He says it's not really about her though, Mr. Sullivan. I mean he says it's about his own prerogative to try and do what's right as a parent.
PAUL SULLIVAN, SANDRA BANNING'S LAWYER: He has pled two things here. First, he has pled his daughter to this case and it's indicated in the complaint, that she was injured. So clearly, the daughter was brought into the case by Mr. Newdow. The second approach he took was a parental right's case stance, which is far more difficult for the court to agree with than if there was an injury prudent to the daughter.
SNOW: What is it that you want to achieve by getting involved? I mean do you actually -- do you think that you can overturn the decision of the court?
SULLIVAN: Miss Banning has retained our firm in order to do two things -- one, to get this message out to the American public. Second of all, we are going to be intervening in the Ninth Circuit to get this information before the court, to make certain that the record reflects what Miss Banning wants, number one, that the daughter is not atheist and number two, that she has no opposition and hasn't been injured by the Pledge.
SNOW: But he's never said she was an atheist.
SULLIVAN: It's alluded to in the court's opinion. But just to make the record clear, Miss Banning wants to come with this information.
SNOW: Have you gotten a lot of phone calls, a lot of reaction? I mean what's it been like for you? Do people know that this is your daughter we're talking about, in your town?
BANNING: Certainly, the parents of my daughter's classmates know. But actually, my parents are actually the ones getting all of the phone calls. So they're pretty -- screening their phone calls and not answering the phone too much.
SNOW: How far are you prepared to take this? He just mentioned -- your lawyer mentioned that you're going to file a brief. I'm sure your name will be on it. But do you want to pursue this? Would you like to see you be a part of overturning that court's decision?
BANNING: No, actually, I really see that I have a very small role here. I see my role as just correcting the record and making sure that the people, the American people, know that my daughter's being raised in Christian home and she attends Sunday school and I teach Sunday school. And I believe that the court record indicates or implies that my daughter is an atheist and that -- so my role here is just to set the record straight.
I don't have a legal background. I'm not an attorney. So if it goes any further or how far it goes is not something I can really comment on.
SNOW: Sandy Banning, the mother of the girl who we won't name, who's mentioned in the Pledge lawsuit and your attorney, Paul Sullivan. Thanks for being with us today.
SULLIVAN: Thanks, Kate.
SNOW: I appreciate it.
The outraged story of the day -- a man facing felony charges for grilling a cat. And this dude's in trouble. The Dell guy gets a slap on the wrist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Now, checking these stories on today's "Newswire." The verdict is in on retrial of a former New York police officer accused of lying about the 1997 assault on Abner Louima. A short time ago, a jury convicted Charles Schwartz of perjury. Juries deadlocked on a more serious civil rights charge, accusing Schwartz of having sodomized Louima with a broken broomstick.
Prosecutors have filed felony animal cruelty charges against a suburban Kansas City man. He allegedly tried to roast a kitten on a barbecue grill while friends cheered him on. A neighbor tried to rescue the kitten, but the cat was so badly burned it had to be euthanized.
Growing up can be dangerous. A new report by two advocacy groups says teenagers are twice as likely as other people to be shot, stabbed, sexually assaulted, beaten, or attacked. The study says 1/5 of all teams -- teens, rather -- had been the victims of violent crime.
The actor who popularized the phrase, "Dude, you're getting a Dell," is in trouble with his union. The Screen Actors Guild says Ben Curtis began filming his popular Dell Computer commercials during the actors' strike two years ago. The union says Curtis was a strikebreaker, and it's ordered an undisclosed punishment.
Let's go to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Kate, thank you. Coming up, President Bush unveiling a new strategy to protect this country from terrorists. We'll have a live report for you from the White House. Violence escalating in the Middle East, a bus attack in the West Bank has killed at least seven Israelis. We'll have a report for you from Jerusalem. Upbeat words from fed chairman Alan Greenspan on the economy, but the markets fall again. We'll have complete market coverage for you and of course, tell you about Mr. Greenspan's view of the future. All of that, a great deal more. Please join us at the top of the hour. Until then, I'm Lou Dobbs. Now back to Kate Snow -- Kate.
SNOW: Lou, thanks.
Just two minutes left to weigh in on our "Question of the Day." What's the best World Trade Center rebuilding proposal? You can see the competing designs and vote on our web site, CNN.com/wolf.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Now, here is how you are weighing in on our "Web Question of The Day." Earlier we asked, "What's the best World Trade Center rebuilding proposal?"
Twenty-eight percent of you said your favorite was the promenade. There was a tie for least favorite, the triangle and the square. Both had six percent. You can see all those designs at CNN.com/wolf. And remember, this is not a scientific poll.
Time now to hear from you. John Walker Lindh's guilty plea drew a huge response from our viewers. William asks -- "What is wrong with our great nation that we allow someone to take up arms against America, join with terrorists to kill our people, and then when caught, allow them to bargain their way into a 20-year sentence when they should be facing death?"
But Minda writes -- "I am thankful that the Constitution exists to protect individuals from the mob mentality that inevitably develops and causes people to lash out at figures like John Walker. As if him spending 20 years in prison will us feel better about September 11."
And that is all the time that we have tonight. I will be back tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern and the rest of this week. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Kate Snow in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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