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American Morning

High Tensions: Pilots' Rights Versus Passengers' Rights

Aired July 17, 2002 - 09:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: These days you wouldn't exactly characterize air travel as flying the friendly skies. As Bill just mentioned, another plane received a fighter jet escort after a passenger raised some concerns about the behavior of several other fliers. And there have been other incidents recently where passengers were removed from flights for merely saying the wrong thing.

Earlier this morning, I spoke with one man whose family was kicked off a plane after their father asked if the pilots had gotten a sobriety test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER VON SCHWEINITZ, KICKED OFF FLIGHT: The pilot came on to the intercom and said that, you know, that a passenger had asked the question. They had taken a breathalyzer test now, it came back 0.0. And then he launched into this speech on how that our parents should teach their children that there are consequences of asking questions, and that he has now asked that the passenger that asked the question be removed from the plane. That's when, you know, the passengers, at least some of them, you know, cheered at that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Can flight crews and passengers, who are all feeling tense since 9/11, learn to get along at 35,000 feet?

Now with me from Orlando, Florida is aviation expert Michael Miller and from Washington this morning, David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association.

Welcome, gentlemen, good to see both of you.

DAVID STEMPLER, PRESIDENT, AIR TRAVELERS ASSOCIATION: Good morning, Paula.

MICHAEL MILLER, AVIATION EXPERT: Good morning.

ZAHN: So, Michael, do you think it was fair for America West to have thrown this family off the plane simply because the father posed the question, essentially, you know, are the pilots sober?

MILLER: Yes, well, it's an unfortunate situation where both sides are tense, as you and Bill Hemmer have said all morning. The entire country is tense. The airlines are worried about the passengers, the passengers are worried about the airlines, and these types of situations are happening all over the place. I do think it's right for passengers to be able to question things. It's right for airlines to be able to question passengers and whether they're safe.

In this case, though, I think America West should have thought twice about doing what it did. And unfortunately, they didn't communicate very well with their employees about doing things a little more logically.

ZAHN: In all fairness to America West, they released a statement that we showed a little bit earlier this morning where they conceded that maybe there have been cases where they've overreached but talked about their commitment to try to do things right in this heightened environment after 9/11.

So, David, what would you have done to this man if you had been running the airline and he asked you if my -- if his pilots were sober?

STEMPLER: Well, Paula, let's put this in context. We remember the incident with the America West, both crew members had an alcohol problem. And I've got to say, America West is a fine airline. We've been a big supporter of them. They've done great things with their recent fare initiatives and all that. But the reality is that these pilots now have been the subject of all these jokes, you know on Jay Leno and David Letterman and all these other things, and they're getting sensitive.

You know the regulation, Paula, says that no person may abuse, threaten, interfere or intimidate a crewmember in their performance of the duties. But in the same way, what these crew members were doing was abusing and threatening airline passengers.

What you heard from Mr. von Schweinitz earlier this morning was, you know, they come on the air, and we've heard this with lots of other passengers, they point out the passengers who have asked us questions. They go off the plane, they take this breathalyzer test, which is kind of silly, and then they throw the passengers off for asking the question. We really think it's an abuse of power, and we've got to stop it. It's just getting out of hand.

ZAHN: Well, Michael, what are we allowed to ask?

MILLER: We're allowed...

ZAHN: What is considered appropriate if we don't want to get thrown off a flight?

MILLER: Well, first of all, I think we have to realize that post-September 11 you can be thrown off a flight more easily than ever. You can be thrown out of an airport or detained more easily than ever so you have to be more sensitive. And...

ZAHN: Well, we get that, and we would get that any overt reference to a bomb, you know, is clearly -- we should be thrown off a plane for that. But asking when the latest maintenance test was done on the plane or if our pilot is sober, is that fair game?

MILLER: Well, I think people are going to be asking these questions publicly more so than in the past. In the past they just thought about it, but then thought, well, the airlines are OK. Now they're asking it publicly. And it is OK to ask, but I don't think it's OK to expect that an airline will turn on a dime and stop a flight for two hours while they test every pilot just because you think so.

I mean if you worried about your teacher that's teaching your student, you don't have the right to walk into a school and say I want my teacher tested. It's similar in any industry, you can't just walk in and make demands based on no knowledge whatsoever. And in...

STEMPLER: Looked like in all of these cases (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I've talked to eight of these people, no one made a threat. People were anxious after the Miami incident. A lot of people are anxious fliers, and they -- you know they didn't realize that this was another thing they had to worry about. And they might not have asked the question as tactfully, but they weren't making threats, they were just concerned.

Mr. von Schweinitz -- actually, the father was taking his son and his grandson. You have your whole family on the plane, you're entrusting yourself to these pilots much like you would entrust yourself to a surgeon going into an operation, they're anxious. And so the airline, what they could do is try to reassure people instead of threatening them, abusing them and throwing them off the airplanes and making them examples.

MILLER: Yes, I...

ZAHN: Well, Michael, you admitted earlier that maybe the America West didn't handle this the way it should have.

MILLER: Yes, I agree...

ZAHN: You conceded that, right?

MILLER: I agree with Mr. Stempler that America West overreacted. But I think if we all step back for a second and realize that it's more likely to get hit by lightning and win the lottery than it is to get killed on an airline crash, I mean it is a safe business. It is a safe means of travel. It is safer than driving a car.

ZAHN: But that misses the point. But that misses the point of the concerns people have on the heels of these news reports about the state that the pilots might be in.

MILLER: Yes, but what really can an average person do? You can question it publicly, but you can't demand that people be drug tested or sobriety tested or anything else. That's not a demand we can make.

STEMPLER: And that's right. And that -- and that -- and that wasn't -- and that wasn't occurring. And, Paula, you have to -- it has to be cleared, this is -- just isn't America West, we've had a number of other airlines that have the case. We had one with National Airlines over the weekend where one of their captains refused to carry the Israeli Consul General from New York, who's been on your show many times, because he didn't want a high profile executive -- a profile dignitary on his plane.

We can't have people making these kind of profiling decisions. As we move forward, we can't allow captains just to allow -- throw people off the plane because they don't like what they look like or the way they speak or their -- you know, any other aspect. It has to be all based upon actions. And just asking about something involving safety is not a basis to be throne off an airplane.

ZAHN: All right. But, David, here's what I don't get. I mean has there been a precedent for a -- for a passenger asking that question and then in turn having it to wait while the drug tests or the alcohol tests were being done?

STEMPLER: Well, this is...

ZAHN: I mean wasn't that -- wasn't that an odd precedent for the airline to even set for a passenger...

STEMPLER: Well...

ZAHN: ... to pose the question and then they follow through with a test?

STEMPLER: Here's what happened, Paula. After they -- after they got hit with so many jokes and remarks, we heard there was a rumor network going on among pilots that said anytime anyone asked about this they're going to stomp off the plane, try to get a breathalyzer test, delay the plane for two hours or so while they -- while they did this and then throw the passenger off the plane. This is -- I've heard this time and time again from multiple places.

We've got to -- the captains of airplanes are given a lot of latitude to make decisions, and we don't want this to be limited any way because it's worked well for the last 50 year. But if we have this abuse of power and they really abuse passengers a lot, what you could end up with here in Washington is regulations, which are going to curtail those powers. And I don't think that's good for the pilots, I don't think it's good for the airlines, I don't think it's good for the industry.

ZAHN: Well, I had heard those rumors too, David, but I've never heard that there was an orchestrated campaign out there to slowdown flights, have people be drug and alcohol tested and kick passengers off the plane.

STEMPLER: Well, all the cases match the same scenario. They march off the airplane, they get the breathalyzer test, then they go on the PA. One passenger told me yesterday that they said because of a passenger's immature remark, a smart-alecky remark, which it wasn't, she was concerned about the sobriety issues like others, we are delayed. And then, of course, she was pointed out and then made to leave the airplane.

I mean I can understand them getting the breathalyzer, but what does throwing the passenger off the plane have to do with this. And since all of the situations mark the same sort of scenario, we checked it out and there was sort of a group decision about this. Thankfully not everyone is following it, but there are some pilots who are and we think it's wrong.

ZAHN: Well, I think you both raise some interesting issues about what it means to be part of the flying public now post-9/11. Thank you for both of your perspectives this morning, Michael Miller and David Stempler.

MILLER: Good to be with you.

STEMPLER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Bill.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: So many people can relate to that story, huh? So many people traveling and seeing so many similar stories.

ZAHN: You got to know -- you've got to have a good sense of timing.

HEMMER: I'm with you.

ZAHN: What kind of question, the tone of the question and when to ask it.

HEMMER: Very true. But I think it's going to take some time for the passengers and the airlines to get into some sort of comfort zone as we go forward, and as we're still learning.

ZAHN: Well, it is. And you well understand the pressure the pilots are under as well.

HEMMER: Yes, you're right. Thank you, Paula.

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