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Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE
Q&A
Aired July 24, 2002 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Q&A.
The battle for Madagascar's presidency. There could have been a civil war. It was avoided, but there was a fight, a violent struggle for power.
For sometime, there wasn't any clear winner in the country's presidential election, but there is a winner for now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): A presidential power struggle in Madagascar. Riots, barricades, two rival governments in two separate cities with two separate armed forces. Hardly the image most people would have of this tropical island off the coast of Africa.
But for seven months, Madagascar was embroiled in a bizarre political showdown with two men staking their claim to the presidency.
Marc Ravalomanana, a millionaire businessman, and Didier Ratsiraka, a former naval officer and one-time Marxist who had ruled Madagascar on and off for some 22 years.
It all started with a contentious election result late last year. Official results showed that neither side won outright. Ratsiraka wanted a runoff, Ravalomanana wanted a recount.
Almost overnight, Madagascar was divided.
Weeks of protests followed. Some of Ratsiraka's cabinet members defected. Ravalomanana declared himself president and took control of government offices. Ratsiraka relocated his cabinet and called for a second round of elections.
DIDIER RATSIRAKA, MADAGASCARAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It's Mr. Ravalomanana who is refusing this interim government that he was proposing before, and me, I've spoken about a second election round.
VERJEE: Senegal's President Abdoulaye Wade negotiated a peace deal under the auspices of the then Organization of African Unity, but it collapsed.
Madagascar's Supreme Court finally made its decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Marc Ravalomanana is elected to the presidency of the Republic for the next five years by 51.46 percent of the votes in the presidential election of December 16.
VERJEE: He's now trying to rebuild his country, fight corruption and boost the economy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a return to normality. The result is welcome.
VERJEE: The United States, France and other Western countries have recognized Ravalomanana's presidency, as have three African nations. At least 70 people were killed in the months of unrest.
Giving in to political, military and popular pressure, the Red Admiral has fled to France, where he is in self-imposed exile.
Mr. Ravalomanana says he wants to pursue the former president, investigate and arrest him. Ratsiraka says he will fight on.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): We'll speak to Madagascar's former president Didier Ratsiraka in just a moment, but first CNN's Charlayne Hunter-Gault sat down with Madagascar's new President Marc Ravalomanana.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marc Ravalomanana was installed as president in May, following two years as Mayor of Madagascar's capital, Antananarivo, a city of close to 2 million in a country of some 15 million.
We met the president and one of his four children on the grounds of the president palace, once his mayoral office.
From an impoverished childhood, Ravalomanana grew up to become one of the country's wealthiest businessmen, earning millions from his dairy business.
(on camera): President Ravalomanana, thank you so much for joining us.
What is your comment on former President Ratsiraka's challenge, saying that new elections must be held?
MARC RAVALOMANANA, PRESIDENT OF MADAGASCAR: It's crazy to think about a new election again. If you'd like the Madagascaris becoming normal in peace, for all the country in the territory of Madagascar, it exists, so that's why it's not necessary to make again a new election. It's wrong.
GAULT: And you're confident that your presidency is legitimate?
RAVALOMANANA: If the high court make a decision, if I won in the first round, it's not necessary to go in the new election again. And I am sure we win.
GAULT: Your next elections will be legislative. When will they be held?
RAVALOMANANA: The reconciliation of the government, build a new government -- government of the -- yes, reconciliation. I did it. And now we prepare for the new -- for the election of the legislative.
GAULT: When?
RAVALOMANANA: It depends on assistance from the United Nations or the European.
GAULT: And do you expect that that election will take place before the end of the year?
RAVALOMANANA: That's why I said to you it depends on the assistance from the international community, because they will give some guarantee to help us. It means we have to ask them to help for the name of the elector and to have all the material that we need for this election, is transparency and good results, because it is the democracy.
GAULT: Could it happen by the end of the year?
RAVALOMANANA: Yes.
GAULT: Turning now to the economy, what is the state of the economy? And how did it get to be so bad?
RAVALOMANANA: It's simple. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will try to make good government and transparency here in Madagascar, for the government and for the fight of the corruption. And we do the best to improve the economical situation here.
GAULT: What are your other priorities?
RAVALOMANANA: You know, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the blowing up the bridge, and they made a blockage. This is the most important first, because it is the communication and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- the transport is not good. Yes, we need to repair the road, the bridge, to make the facility of circulation in Madagascar.
GAULT: As a successful businessman, what lessons does that yield for how you're going to run the country?
RAVALOMANANA: We have to give the guarantee for investment here. They want to come to Madagascar, because most of the company in Madagascar are closed, most of them, during the crisis.
So now it's time to call them to come back again. And then, if they come back here, most of the young or the Madagascar people, they find a job. We can improve quick.
GAULT: Well, President Marc Ravalomanana, thank you for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Coming up, the former president of Madagascar, Didier Ratsiraka in Paris.
Remember, we really want to hear from you, so drop us an e-mail. Q&A@CNN.COM.
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VERJEE: Welcome back.
For more than six months, former President Didier Ratsiraka struggled to keep his job. Ratsiraka ruled the Indian Ocean Island for more than 20 years with a brief hiatus in the mid-1990's. He is one of Africa's longest-serving heads of state.
Joining us now from Paris is the former president of Madagascar, Didier Ratsiraka.
Mr. Ratsiraka, have you conceded defeat? Have you conceded defeat?
RATSIRAKA: Deceit?
VERJEE: Have you accepted that you have lost the presidency.
RATSIRAKA: How do you consider this.
No, no, no, no, no.
I don't accept it. You know, the high constitutional court has made its decision on the 25th of January this year. And the decision was 46 points (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 21 for Mr. Ravalomanana, and 40.89 for me.
So this decision of the high constitutional court must -- nobody can rebut to this decision. This is a definitive decision.
So when Mr. Ravalomanana proclaimed himself as president for the first time, he has made a swearing in. Afterwards, he came to Dakhara (ph) to get together with President Abdoulaye Wade and then he recognized officially that he didn't win the contest.
And then President Abdoulaye Wade at the summit of the organ, the central organ of the OAU, last time, has recognized officially that nobody won the contest of the 16th of December.
So, for me, Mr. Ravalomanana is not the president of Madagascar.
VERJEE: For the majority of people, though, he is.
RATSIRAKA: I remain the president of Madagascar.
VERJEE: . people have accepted him in Madagascar as the president. Even Senegalese President Abdoulaye Wade says look, the people have accepted him. He is ruling as the leader of Madagascar. The United States, France and three other African nations have recognized him as the leader, and not you.
RATSIRAKA: OK. The United States of America and all the countries might recognize Mr. Ravalomanana as president of Madagascar, but the people of Madagascar cannot, may not, recognize Mr. Ravalomanana as president of Madagascar.
This will not solve the problem of the main problem of Madagascar. This is a coup de'tat. Where is the transparency? Where is democracy? Nobody can proclaim Mr. Ravalomanana and recognize Mr. Ravalomanana as the winner of the contest since he has not reached 51 percent of the vote. That's the truth.
And I think, I think that this is a terrible error, if men and women or nations all over the world recognize Mr. Ravalomanana as the president of Madagascar. This will not resolve the problem of Madagascar.
VERJEE: Do you.
RATSIRAKA: Now we have a dictator in Madagascar.
VERJEE: OK.
RATSIRAKA: Because we have prisoners, 100 prisoners in Madagascar now, be they military or civilian prisoners. During my mandate, you have no prisoners, political prisoners, in Madagascar. Now they're essential in Madagascar.
There is no liberty at all. No freedom. How can you accept this? How can you help such a regime?
VERJEE: Many people, though, in Madagascar, are saying look at your own regime. You were in power, on and off, for more than 20 years. They say you didn't deliver to the people what you promised. And many people now say we're actually relieved that Mr. Ratsiraka is gone, because the fighting is over. There were reports that your militias were going through the various towns, tossing grenades, looting shops, attacking people, taking them hostages. And there was enormous economic damage to the country.
So many say we're glad Mr. Ratsiraka is gone.
RATSIRAKA: Maybe that's the information you got, but please, go to Madagascar and see and listen by yourself.
You know, I came back to power on 1997. I left the power on 1992 to 1996. I came back to power on 1997. On 1995, the overgrowth of Madagascar was 0.5 over the GDP. And the inflation was 50 percent.
At the end of my mandate, from 1997 to last year, on December, the overall growth of Madagascar over the GDP was 7 percent, madam. And the inflation was 5 percent, less than 5 percent.
So, this is -- how can you -- this is not a failure for me. This is a success. If people are glad that I left Madagascar, OK. But I tell you now, this is not a solution to the problem of Madagascar.
My prime minister is in prison, in jail. My former prime minister is in jail. Many ministers are in jail. Many soldiers and officers, 100, are in jail now.
VERJEE: Mr. Ratsiraka, do you believe that you have a chance still to go back to Madagascar and fight for the presidency that you appear to believe is still not resolved?
RATSIRAKA: Of course. If peace and stability, stability, and freedom, prevail in Madagascar, I come back, and what I wanted from the beginning up to now, all I wanted was a second round of the election since nobody won the contest of the election.
I might come back to Madagascar and let the people, please, let the people tell who is the president of Madagascar. The people must choose. Either Mr. Ravalomanana is the president of Madagascar, or Mr. Didier Ratsiraka is the president of Madagascar.
VERJEE: It seems as though.
RATSIRAKA: Let the people of Madagascar choose.
VERJEE: It seems as though the people of Madagascar have accepted him, but what Mr. Ravalomanana said in his interview is that he may be willing to hold new legislative elections that would perhaps include some of your supporters. Would that be acceptable to you?
RATSIRAKA: No, no, no. This is not acceptable. The problem is not legislative election. the problem is presidential election.
You know people don't vote for a deputy or a congressman with the same mind when you vote for a president of the Republic. This is not the same thing.
If you want a presidential election, let us have a presidential election. Why postpone or put or have a legislative election since the presidential election is not over.
VERJEE: OK.
RATSIRAKA: The legislative election is for next year and not this year.
VERJEE: My final question.
RATSIRAKA: This is not a legislative election.
VERJEE: My final question for you, Mr. Ratsiraka. President Ravalomanana says he wants to have you investigated. He says he wants you tried for alleged corruption, prosecuted over allegations of stealing money from the government. What's your response to that?
RATSIRAKA: No. This is, this is wrong. If somebody, if somebody is corrupted, it is Mr. Ravalomanana. He has not paid 300 billion Madagascari francs, that means 300 million French francs of tax. He didn't pay that. He had exoneration of taxes during six years.
I didn't steal anything in Madagascar. I helped several people, ten and ten thousand people every day, during one year (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Antananarivo with my subsidies. I gave scholarship to people in France, 75 students now. I am not corrupted, madam.
I know that corruptions prevail everywhere, all over the world, since Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac. But.
VERJEE: OK.
RATSIRAKA: I can tell you, I can swear, I can swear I'm not corrupted, madam.
VERJEE: Didier Ratsiraka, the former president of Madagascar, speaking to us from Paris. Thank you, sir, for speaking to us on Q&A.
With us now from Washington is Chris Fomunyoh, the regional director for east, central and west Africa at the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs.
Chris, is it good for Madagascar that -- for the Madagascari people, that Mr. Ratsiraka appears to be out and Mr. Ravalomanana is in?
CHRIS FOMUNYOH, INST. FOR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: I think it's good, because over the past six months, one has gotten a sense that people in Madagascar want to get along with the allies, and that they've already been subjected to so much hardship and then fighting and civil strife in the last six months, since the president election.
VERJEE: Mr. Ratsiraka seems quite adamant that, you know, this issue is not resolved. He's in Paris, though, right now. He's lost a lot of support, from soldiers to political associates. Can he really do anything?
FOMUNYOH: I really don't think that he could. Obviously, he's a good speaker, but I think time has gone by when you could talk about new presidential elections in Madagascar. And my sense is that the Madagascari people are now looking forward to maybe legislative elections that can broaden the political landscape, and other steps that need to be taken to provide more legitimacy to the government of President Ravalomanana.
VERJEE: What kind of steps does he need to take to move toward the right direction and to nail down, at least to some extent, his own legitimacy?
FOMUNYOH: Sure. The legislative elections would be one step, because that would allow for other political parties, including Ratsiraka's party, to be represented at the national level in the National Assembly.
Secondly, he probably also needs to reach out in a broad based government to really take the national reconciliation that he talked about into very concrete terms.
VERJEE: Chris, did it have to end like this? I mean, were there other ways that this could have played out and other ways it could have been resolved?
FOMUNYOH: Yes, I think there are other ways, but in a very strange way I believe what Madagascar has gone through captures in some ways the very subtle battle that is currently taking place in Africa for the hearts and soul and the future of the continent, between an old class of leaders that came to power and have served their countries for over two decades, but still want to cling to power, and a new brand that probably wants to do things differently. And I think that's been playing itself out in Madagascar.
I wish -- you know, one would have wished that Ravalomanana hadn't declared himself president and that the process would have taken its course. But it's also fair to say that between the two of them, the current president, Ravalomanana, had more votes during those elections than Ratsiraka.
VERJEE: What about the African Union? Why is it that they won't recognize the new Madagascar president?
FOMUNYOH: Well, it's part of that sort of battle that I referred to. But it's also -- I think the European Union and the African continent is going through a little clash of generations. And I mean generations here, not in terms of age, but in terms of the old brand of leaders, such as Mugabe of Zimbabwe and Arap Moi of Kenya, and the new brand, such as Mbeke and Wade of Senegal, people who have come to power through more legitimate means.
And while there is this mix of leadership within the AU, I think we're still going to see the AU come up with very ambivalent positions, and Madagascar was one clear example.
My sense is that as independent -- as various African countries now bilaterally recognize the government of Madagascar, that the African Union is going to eventually go along.
VERJEE: Chris Fomunyoh on Q&A, thank you.
FOMUNYOH: Thank you.
VERJEE: That's it for now. Make sure -- you're welcome.
Make sure you join Jim Clancy for another edition of Q&A. at 19:30 GMT. Stay with CNN. WORLD NEWS is next.
END
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