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CNN Live Today

Moussaoui May Plead Guilty

Aired July 25, 2002 - 12:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: In about an hour, accused terrorist, Zacarias Moussaoui, is scheduled to go back before the judge. Will he try to enter a plea again? Will his lawyers, and the judge, let him?

CNN's Deborah Feyerick is outside the federal courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia.

I wonder if he'll be calmer than he was the last time we spoke -- Deb.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Kyra.

He was very agitated the last time he was here at this hearing. His mom arrived just a couple of minutes ago. As you can imagine, security in this entire area, very, very tight. Roads are blocked off, many more U.S. Marshals than there have been at past hearings. They are carrying semiautomatics, rifles, submachine guns. There are also bomb-sniffing dogs that are checking all packages. The area is pretty much locked down.

Now, Moussaoui is also here at the courthouse. The judge sent him a letter this week basically describing how today's hearings would proceed.

She also sent letters to both prosecutors and standby counsel, asking for their input as to this hearing today. The standby lawyers are basically trying to stop it until she issues some sort of a ruling on the death penalty, saying that if the judge does allow Moussaoui to plead guilty today, it could be like signing his own death warrant.

Now, last week, Moussaoui did try pleading guilty, saying that he had all of this information about an ongoing conspiracy, and that he had information about the 9/11 attacks. That's when the judge said, take it up with prosecutors. But it is a lot more complicated than just giving the government a call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: It makes it extremely difficult. If he had lawyers, they would make what is called a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the government, and lay out for the government what he would be able to say pursuant to a plea agreement. You would be able to check it, be able go back to the lawyers to ask questions of them. The fact that he is representing himself means that you have to deal, by definition, directly with him, and that is something very unusual, not something that can't be overcome, but I think you have to be concerned if you are the government to make sure that you do it in a way that ultimately people are going to say was appropriate. And that's why I suggest you might want to involve the judge in some way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: The Justice Department has said that they are going to take a wait-and-see attitude to see what does happen today. A source there tells CNN that there are no negotiations, and it is unlikely that there are going to be any in the future. The government simply not believing that Moussaoui is truthful or credible in any way, or that the information he has is current and could help stop perhaps some sort of an ongoing plot.

If by some stretch of the imagination, prosecutors do offer some sort of a plea deal and take the death penalty off the table, which is exactly what Moussaoui wants, if they do find that he has been lying, that his answers are not truthful, then they could take it off again, or they could put it back on again, I should say.

So again, a lot of complexities. It's unclear whether Moussaoui will plead guilty today, or whether this will just be a hearing to sort out some of the details and get things in order. Some of the problems here is that this is all happening so fast, because this is the rocket docket. Things happen fast here. But there has really been no time to put the brakes on, it seems, and make certain rulings.

So everything moving ahead, and it's supposed to go to trial in late September -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Deborah Feyerick, thank you so much

Now, for some more perspective, let's go to our New York legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey -- good to see you.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So defense attorneys want to delay this hearing, obviously to consider two important things. No. 1, Moussaoui's mental health.

TOOBIN: Right.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about that for a minute.

TOOBIN: Well, this has been an issue since the very beginning of the case. And each time the judge has considered the issue, she has said, look, I think he is fit to stand trial. People don't realize, it's very hard to be judged insane in the federal system. There are -- the standards are very, very narrow. The basic test is, do you understand the nature of the charges against you? You know, if Moussaoui thought that he was on trial for robbing a shoe store, then he wouldn't be fit to stand trial. But he obviously understands what he is on trial for. He is extreme, he's a fanatic, but that's the charges against him, that's not evidence of his insanity.

So at each stage, he has been found competent to stand trial, and there is no reason to think that's going to change.

PHILLIPS: All right. So even though he has handwritten more than 100 rambling legal memos, and he has been disrespectful to the judge, and he says things at times that don't make sense, it doesn't mean that he is incompetent?

TOOBIN: Absolutely not. That doesn't give you a get out of jail free card to answer -- you know, to act peculiarly in court. You know, Congressman James Traficant acted peculiarly in court, and no one thought he was unfit to stand trial.

He -- you know, I have read a lot of those motions. I mean, sure, they are eccentric, they are religiously-oriented, but he clearly understands what he is on trial for. He objects to the prosecution like most defendants do, but he does not seem like an insane person.

PHILLIPS: Well, also, too, I was reading here that the -- well, and obviously the judge doesn't think that he is insane at this point . She is giving him a special room at the jail with a computer, a VCR, an audiocassette player to review all of the evidence. And she has also ordered the government to print out tens of thousands of pages of documents for him. I mean -- I don't know. With someone that is having such a hard time understanding the system, isn't he going to bury himself?

TOOBIN: Well, of course he is. And judges always recommend to defendants who want to represent themselves that it's a bad idea, don't do it, get a lawyer. But the Supreme Court has held that if, in the face of all of those warnings, you still want to represent yourself, you have an absolute right to do so if you are sane, and there is nothing that the judge can do to stop him.

PHILLIPS: All right. The defense attorneys also want to delay this hearing to resolve constitutional questions over the death -- the federal death penalty law. What is it exactly they want to resolve?

TOOBIN: Well, as you recall, last month, the Supreme Court held that juries, not judges, have to determine all of the critical questions regarding death penalty decisions. As usual with Supreme Court decisions, they set out broad rulings, the justices do. But how those are interpreted at ground level, you know, there is usually a lot of play in the joints. That is a question, how to interpret the Supreme Court's decision last month, and how that applies to the specifics of this case is something that the lawyers want to hash out.

But remember, they are not Moussaoui's lawyers at this point. Moussaoui has fired them. So you know, the judge can listen to what they have to say, but they have no right to intervene in these proceedings. And there is no reason to think that that is going to hold up the guilty plea if the judge decides that he's going to plead guilty...

PHILLIPS: That's right, Moussaoui...

TOOBIN: ... that to accept it.

PHILLIPS: OK. If he makes an acceptable guilty plea, let's define that in a moment, too. Then that means it can move on to the penalty phase, and then a jury can decide his fate. All right, how do you define an acceptable guilty plea?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, it's funny. That sounds very simple, but it's not. And in fact, those of us who, you know, practice in federal court, we knew that -- a guilty plea, even in normal circumstances, takes at least a half an hour, because the judge must explain each aspect of it to the defendant. But the most important question in a guilty plea that's always asked is, Mr. Defendant, explain in your own words what did you do? How did you commit this crime? What is it you did?

And Moussaoui has never really said what he did. And a judge is required to reject a guilty plea if what the defendant says he did doesn't match up with what he is charged with. We don't know exactly what Moussaoui thinks he did, and whether that matches up.

So if Moussaoui just says, said, well, I did it, that's not good enough. He's got to explain what he did, and that's going to be, first of all, very fascinating to hear. And second of all, it may not be consistent with what the charges are.

PHILLIPS: So today should be interesting, wouldn't you say?

TOOBIN: I am jealous of Deb Feyerick that she gets to be in court for this, because I would love to be able to see what's going on here. It's -- there are always surprises with this guy, and you know, it's worth remembering, this is a very important case.

PHILLIPS: Sure is. Well...

TOOBIN: And we'll see what happens.

PHILLIPS: And we'll follow it, definitely, all morning and see what happens at 1:00 Eastern Time, and we'll be talking again. Jeffrey Toobin.

TOOBIN: Very good.

PHILLIPS: Thanks, Jeffrey. All right.

TOOBIN: OK.

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