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American Morning
Interview with Marc Gellman and Tom Hartman, 'God Squad'
Aired July 29, 2002 - 07:49 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: One of the volunteers who made Sunday's miracle rescue of those nine miners of Somerset, Pennsylvania possible said that there were 10 people down in that shaft, not 9. The tenth one was God.
Good news, finally, in what's been an otherwise rather bleak summer.
Here to talk about a plethora of bad news and the role of faith and finding it, keeping it during challenging times is "The God Squad," Rabbi Marc Gellman and Father Tom Hartman -- gentlemen, nice to have you with us.
RABBI MARC GELLMAN, "THE GOD SQUAD": Good to be here, Jack.
MONSIGNOR TOM HARTMAN, "THE GOD SQUAD": Hi.
CAFFERTY: People's retirement plans wiped out...
GELLMAN: Wiped out.
CAFFERTY: ... child abductions, corporate greed, fires burning all over the western United States, a couple of plane crashes over the weekend, I mean, it's...
GELLMAN: Locusts, frogs...
CAFFERTY: Yes.
GELLMAN: ... hail, fire, we've got that.
HARTMAN: That's just like one of your books.
GELLMAN: We've got...
CAFFERTY: What do you say to people who understandably can be overwhelmed by all of this, particularly if you add in some sort of personal dilemma they may find themselves in, and they just throw up their hands and say, I'm done?
GELLMAN: Well, we get this all of the time. A lot of people come to priests and rabbis and ministers with gripes about transient bad news. And the first thing we say is, look, there is not a single morning when you wake up and draw a breath when your burdens exceed your blessings. Your blessings always exceed your burdens.
And it's that focus that people have to return to. There is not a single day that you're alive when things are really worse than they are better, that times are completely bleak. There is always something in your life that you can give thanks for.
CAFFERTY: Yes, but isn't it true that some days, it can be a little tough to find? I mean, I am thinking about somebody perhaps who has lost all of their retirement savings. They are looking forward to going into retirement, no job, unemployable, no pension, no retirement savings, trying to live on social security, perhaps in bad health. I mean, how tough is it for somebody like that to look around and decide that the sky is really blue?
HARTMAN: It is tough. It's very tough, and it would be false of us to say, oh, everything is fine. We all have suffering in life. And theologians have questioned, why is there suffering? Some say we have suffering to learn compassion, to be able to suffer with others.
But as Marc says, in the midst of whatever suffering it is, whether it be the loss of money or the loss of job or the loss of a life, you have to look around and say, what is important in my life that's going to help me? How about my friends? How about prayer? How about taking the time to go to a counselor and sort it out? Because with every crisis in our lives, there is a meaning, there is a message, there is something to learn. And the saints are people who learn, the sinners are people who don't learn anything.
CAFFERTY: I want to talk to both of you about something the pope said in Canada over the weekend concerning the priest sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. He finally talked about it publicly for the first time, expressed a feeling of shame over the things that have come to light about the church recently. And I guess, Father Hartman, the discussion has to start with your reaction to what he said, and whether it was soon enough.
HARTMAN: Well, I was particularly pleased that he used a word as strong as "shame," because that's the way we feel. I mean, I went into the priesthood to help people, not to hurt people. Any healthy priest does that. That's what the church is about. If the church isn't good and kind and trustworthy, it shouldn't be.
And so, what the holy father said to the young people is, you be the song on the earth, you be the light of the world, and if you believe in Jesus, believe in the church. There are a few people who did wrong, but there are many people who are doing good. And that's my experience.
Over and over again, every day, there are good people in parishes making things happen, helping kids to believe in themselves, helping families in funerals, in births, and in marriages and all sorts of important things.
CAFFERTY: Rabbi Gellman, what's your take on the way the leadership of the church has handled this? Have they done enough? Have they been forceful enough? Did they act soon enough?
GELLMAN: No, I think it's an immense scandal, and it's created tremendous damage to the creditability of the church. And someone like me, who stands outside the church but only barely, and who loves the pope and who loves the moral mission that he has brought to the world, really grieves with the church for this.
But you know, all great institutions have their time of reformation. All great institutions can overextend themselves and fall into bad habits. And the real test of the church is not what they have done until now, Jack. The real test is what they do from this point on.
And I believe that the laity will become more involved in the church. I believe that there will be more transparency in their operations, and I absolutely believe that they will not move child- abusing priests from parish to parish. That's over. That's absolutely over.
What happens to the bishops and cardinals who are guilty in the past remains to be seen. I hope they are removed. I hope punishment is brought. But my concern is that the church continue its moral mission and be an inspiration to many who love it.
CAFFERTY: Gentlemen, we've got to stop. It's been too long between visits. Come back again...
GELLMAN: It is.
CAFFERTY: ... and visit with us often, will you?
GELLMAN: Thanks, Jack.
HARTMAN: God bless you.
CAFFERTY: And you. "The God Squad," Rabbi Marc Gellman and Father Tom Hartman -- always a pleasure.
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