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CNN Talkback Live
Are Child Abductions Happening at Alarming Rate?; Conjoined Twins Separated
Aired August 06, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
For weeks now you've watched as one child after another has been kidnapped. You've prayed for their safety, and sometimes they found their way home, sometimes not. Does it seem to you that children are being taken at an alarming rate? Or could it be the media have just covered what's happening to kids and throwing a spotlight on it?
We're going to talk about child abductions and murders in just a minute. First we want to bring you the latest on the conjoined Guatemalan twins who were separated at the UCLA Medical Center today. Joining us at the center is CNN National Correspondent Gary Tuchman with an update --Gary?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, two little girls from Guatemala celebrated their first birthday on July 25 in this hospital behind me, and now 12 days later they have received a wonderful present. Successful separation, conjoined at the head after twenty-two-and-a-half hours of surgery, little Maria Teresa and her sister Maria de Jesus were successfully separated.
Now, here is the fly in the ointment. There's been a little complication. The bigger of the two -- and that's Maria Teresa -- suffered a subdural hematoma -- that's a collection of blood under the scalp. She had to be brought back to the operating room about two hours and 45 minutes ago. As it appears right now, she is still in the operating room. However, we are told by doctors that this is not necessarily unexpected, that it's completely manageable.
They told us after operation was complete and both little girls were brought to the recovery room -- and we just got those pictures of the two little girls separated for the first time after the 377 days of life, but we are told by doctors to expect the possibility of complications in the hours, days and weeks after. So this is something they did warn us about. But as of now, little Maria Teresa is still in the operating room for this hematoma. But the fact is, this was a very complicated surgery. Both these little girls shared veins. Veins are what takes blood from the brain to the heart, and the veins were criss-crossed into each other's heads.
They were able, after 22 hours, to get the vein's separated, to get the children separated, and Arthel, one of the most amazing things is, keep in mind, the way they were connected, these little girls were never able in their first year of life to ever even see each other, even in a mirror. The way they were positioned they couldn't see each other.
So wouldn't it be wonderful to be in that room with them when they both wake up and are able to look at each other's faces for the very first time. Even taking a bath here at the hospital, doctors would have to pick one of the children up, hold the little girl upside down, while the other one would be able to go in the bathtub, so it's a wonderful, wonderful story. They've been separated, and we certainly hope that this one little girl, Maria Teresa, is able to come out of the operation and join her little sister in the recovery room -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Indeed. Gary Tuchman, thank you very much for that update. OK, let's turn our attention now to what's been in the news a lot lately, and that's child killings. President Bush today said the kidnapping or murder of a child is every parent's worst nightmare.
Over the past months we've all come to know the names and faces of some of the victims, names like Danielle van Dam, Samantha Runnion, Elizabeth Smart, Cassandra Williamson, and Erica Pratt. Mr. Bush will be hosting a White House summit on the problem next month, and we're going to find out more about that in a minute. But right now we are opening a kind of summit of our own on this topic. Our guests are Georgia Hilgeman Hammond, executive director and founder of the Vanished Children's Alliance. Matthew Felling, media director for the Center for Media and Public Affairs, and Keith Warburton, a former FBI agent and assistant prosecutor in Woodbury, New Jersey.
And of course I want all of you watching to join this summit as well, so you can give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com. And I'd like to welcome my panelists. Welcome.
(CROSSTALK)
Georgia, you have a personal experience with this story we're talking about. And if you will, tell us what happened.
GEORGIA HILGEMAN, VANISHED CHILDREN'S ALLIANCE: Sure, my daughter, back in 1976, disappeared from the streets of Oakland, California. She was 13 months old at the time, and I was working with the homicide division to try to locate here. To make a very long story short, I ultimately found her living in a slum of Mexico City at age five-and-a-half. I didn't know during those years whether she had been taken by a stranger in the crowd or somehow my ex-husband was involved.
Ultimately, we did find out that my ex-husband was involved, but that led to the formation of the Vanished Children's Alliance, which I'm involved with today.
NEVILLE: OK, what do you mean, your husband was involved?
HILGEMAN: Well, my ex-husband reported that our daughter had disappeared from his side at the grand opening of the Oakland City Center, speculating perhaps she had fallen into a construction ditch or had been taken by a black market baby ring, so needless to say the homicide police department became involved, and there was an investigation, and until we ultimately found her we did not know if he was responsible or in fact she had been taken by somebody attending that event.
NEVILLE: OK, Georgia, I appreciate you trying to be brief here, but I have to get a little bit more detail here.
HILGEMAN: Sure.
NEVILLE: So your daughter was how old when she was reported missing here or -- what happened? Give me a little more detail.
HILGEMAN: She was 13 months old. My ex-husband picked her up for a weekend visitation and took her to this event. He then reported that she disappeared...
NEVILLE: To an event? To an event?
HILGEMAN: To an event, a parade in the city of Oakland, California.
NEVILLE: OK. And she's 13 months old.
HILGEMAN: She's 13 months old. She disappears. There is a massive search for her. It hit every news station in the Bay Area, nationwide. None of us knew where she was. We knew that my ex- husband had not gone anywhere. He was playing the role of the distraught father, so we didn't know. We followed up on countless leads and sightings and psychic reports, and everything else you could imagine.
NEVILLE: And your child was missing for how long?
HILGEMAN: He was missing for four-and-a-half years. When I ultimately found her in Mexico, she didn't know me at any conscious level. She didn't speak a word of English. And then we brought her back to this country to start her life over.
NEVILLE: And how did she get to Mexico?
HILGEMAN: That we will never know for sure. There was discrepancies in how she allegedly got to Mexico.
NEVILLE: But you believe that your ex-husband was somehow involved in this process.
HILGEMAN: He was involved. He was convicted of child stealing and false imprisonment, and ended up having to serve time for those two felony convictions.
NEVILLE: Geez. OK, listen. You know, according to the numbers, child abductions, especially by strangers, have declined, but you won't -- or maybe wouldn't believe that according to the news reports you're hearing these days. So I want to ask Matthew now if you think the media is overplaying these types of stories?
MATTHEW FELLING, CENTER FOR MEDIA & PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Well, Arthel, I don't think that we're overplaying these stories, as much as we're infusing Americans with a manufactured and an inflated sense of dread. I think that as you stated, statistics show that missing children, kidnapped children, the numbers are on the decline, which is good news, and we're not covering that, but at the same time we're covering these anecdotal stories that are indeed frightening us. They're making us wonder. I mean, I would hate to be a parent right now. In the year 2002, I'm worried about anthrax, I'm worried about pedophile priests, I'm worried about kidnappings.
We need to balance this coverage. I don't have a problem with the amount of coverage as long as it's done responsibly and as long as it's done in a -- with a greater context in mind.
NEVILLE: So expound on that for me.
FELLING: Pardon me?
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
FELLING: Let's tell the parents this is happening today, we are searching for this child, but by the way, the statistics show that this is still a rare occurrence. The Center for Media and Public Affairs, where I work, over the '90s we saw that crime coverage on the networks ascended over the 10 years at the very same time the crime rate was on the decline. There seems to be some sort of a disconnect, and it leads Americans into this -- it makes us very worked up and it makes us more worried than we actually need to be.
NEVILLE: So basically you are saying the media should cover these stories, indeed, but each time are you suggesting that the numbers are pointed out at every turn?
FELLING: Yes, unfortunately, this calming influence doesn't really have much of a mouthpiece in the news industry. We always want people to be watching us. We always want people to be tuning into our program instead of the other person's.
NEVILLE: I mean, but hang on for a second here. I mean, I'm not going let you say or imply that we are just covering these stories because you know, they are emotionally charged and so we want people to watch. I mean, we want to help these people or these children, in particular, to be found.
FELLING: Yes, and I'm not arguing that at all. I think that all these stories, every single one of these stories is very important. And I think that it -- if we added a little sense of balance, and if we added a sense to the parents of America that this is still indeed a rare occurrence, it would be doing the public a greater service at the same time that we're informing them.
I mean, the first priority, above all, is to find these missing children. And another question that often pops up in a lot of my day- to-day interviews is why one instead of the other, and that's an issue we can explore later.
NEVILLE: Tell me now.
FELLING: Well, there are a lot of different factors. There are -- what the circumstances are, do we have any leads in the case, where are the children, missing, is it close to a major media market, not that those children have any priority over anybody else, but it is easier to get the cameras into the family's lives if they are in St. Louis, as they were last week, than it is if they're in Joplin, Missouri.
NEVILLE: There's satellite television, Matthew, and we can get stories from any city.
HILGEMAN: I think there are some other points too. I think a lot of these kids, it depends on how articulate the parents are. I think it depends on whether it's a slow news day. I think it depends on the manner in which a child was abducted. I think there are other factors there too...
NEVILLE: And then also, Matthew, there are some people out there, some critics saying that African-American kids do not get the kind of attention from the media that other kids do. Matthew, what do you say to that?
FELLING: Well, I would say that, unfortunately, I would have to agree with them. A lot of times, we see -- how many times did we see the video of the missing girl a month and a half ago playing the harp and playing on the beach. She seemed cherubic. She seemed like an angel. And we do not often have the video of minority youth that makes for such a compelling story, that makes for such an attractive, worthwhile story.
And we are ruled oftentimes in the media by the images that we have to drive the story forward. When we do not have the facts, sometimes we need to put a face in front of the camera for this story, and all too often, I am afraid, I mean, I do not have any exact numbers on this, but it seems like we are leaving the minorities out.
NEVILLE: Hey, Keith, how do you see it regarding minority children?
KEITH WARBURTON, STATE PROSECUTOR: The coverage is, as I see it, maybe involves the states that have the Amber Alert, where there is more notification to the media. And as far as the minority coverage is concerned, that is something that I'm not an expert in, and something that you should explore because every parent, black, white, yellow or other, goes through a tremendous amount of pain. And I think it is worthwhile to have the news media involved in that because it alerts the public to keep their eyes and ears open for the police to inform them of what is going on and giving them leads.
NEVILLE: Absolutely. And, you know what, I've asked Keith, I've asked Matthew, who are experts in this area. But I want to ask Georgia after the break. Georgia, I want to know how you think what the media should do, OK. I want to know what you think about that when we come back from the break.
And, listen, we are going to find out more about why President Bush is calling a summit on child abductions. And I want to leave you with this picture of Bianca Lebron, last seen in Bridgeport, Connecticut, on November 7 of last year. She's 11 years old, and may have gotten into a dark-colored vehicle with tinted windows, and a man at the wheel. If you've seen her, call the National Center For Missing and Exploited Children at 800-843-5678.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMANDER KEITH NELSON, KERN CO. SHERIFF'S DEPT.: The Amber Alert system did go out. It did work. On the way to work, I saw it working personally. I have a long drive, I'm the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) substation commander. And I looked on my scanner and every truck driver in California was talking about this vehicle, looking for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.
That Amber Alert system Commander Nelson referred to was used to help save two California teens abducted from a lover's lane of sorts last week. It was launched in Texas in 1996 and implemented in California after the Samantha Runnion murder. The system is in 41 locations, but not nationwide.
And as we mentioned before, the president is planning a White House summit on child abductions and killings. And we're going to find out a little bit more about that now from CNN White House correspondent Kelly Wallace. And, Kelly, if you would, tell us about the conference.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, I can tell you as senior officials tell me that this was really in the planning for months. The White House working with the Justice Department, the goal is bringing together policy experts, law enforcement officials, parents, September 24 here in Washington, to focus on ways to prevent children from being abducted and exploited, to focus on measures that parents can take.
I am told the reason the president decided to announce this now is because of all of these high-profile cases. You have been talking about them, Danielle van Dam, Samantha Runnion in California, Elizabeth Smart in Utah. So, the president believing right now, a lot of people are paying attention to these cases, so he is using the bully pulpit to get people's attention and try to encourage parents to talk to their kids and give them tips on ways to stay safe -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Kelly Wallace, thank you very much for that story.
OK. And, Georgia, as promised, before the break, I wanted to ask you, we were talking to the experts about media coverage. I want to get an idea from you on what the media should or should not do regarding these stories.
HILGEMAN: I think the media plays a critical role in helping to locate children, and I hope they will continue to do so. I think one of the errors that we sometimes see is the focus. There is a focus only on high-profile stranger abduction cases. The reality of the issue surrounding missing and abducted children is there are children that are missing from a variety of categories. There are runaway children, there are children that are abducted by family members, and there are children taken by strangers or non-family members.
And I think that it is important for the media to focus on all types, because when you hear numbers such as over a million children disappear each year, people tend to think these are all children abducted by strangers. And I think that the public, the more they understand the nature of these crimes and these issues that affect our children, will help to find them, will be more proactive and be able to take more significant precautions to protect their own children.
So, I think there is a responsibility there too. And I think even when we talk about Amber Alerts, and we talk about some of these cases, again, these are the tip of the iceberg. There are many, many missing children in this country, and all of those children deserve to be found and the families need to know what happened to them.
NEVILLE: OK. You know what? I have an e-mail I want to pop up now, something on this same subject, if you could pop it up. It's from Mike in Canada. He says, "the media are primarily interested in ratings. The summer of 2001 was the 'Summer of the Shark,' and 2002 was the 'Summer of Child Abductions.'"
And, Richard from London, you say what?
RICHARD: I have two points to make. I think, firstly, the gentleman made a point about people being very frightened. You know, there is so much media coverage of these kidnappings and these abductions that parents do feel very frightened, perhaps unnecessarily so. Secondly, I think that the media, to a certain extent, are responsible. It does serve to perpetuate the problem, but a lot of people out there who want media attention. And by the great media attention they are getting are actually perhaps going to abduct somebody for that media attention.
NEVILLE: So, there's a fine line though, right, because on the one hand, I understand exactly what you said. I'm not disputing that at all. But then on the other hand, broadcasting such a story helps to find the children. So I ask you what do you say, how do you find the balance?
RICHARD: I think that you are totally right. I think there is very much a fine line. Yes, on the one hand, we do want to -- as Georgia said, we do want to publicize all these abductions and hope that we are going to find these children. But, as I say, I think that because there is such media attention given to these abductions that it can actually serve to -- it's a vicious circle. You know, one leads to another, people see this. If people are wanting to -- there are some pretty mad people out there and people, you know, want perhaps to abduct somebody because -- precisely because they are going to get their name on television for one reason or another.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Let's ask Keith about that because, Keith, being a former FBI agent, I would like to know your take on that?
WARBURTON: As far as the media concern, I think it helps. How many parents out there have not thought about protecting their children or watching out for the neighborhood or the neighborhood kids until these cases came up. I think it helps if there is a balance with the media, not only reporting the abductions, but also educating the public and saying, "these are the things that you should look for, these are the things you can do to protect your children, and let's go through them."
President Bush indicated that there is a Web site, www.missingkids.com. There is a whole mess of information there that parents go through. And they should...
FELLING: We do not want to make the mistake of putting up so many safeguards in newsrooms where we are scared to cover almost anything. I mean, I think there is a very fine line, as we have discovered, between informing people and keeping them informed and being the people who are suggesting ideas. And I do not think that the population of Americans who actually take these things as suggestions is large enough that we need to have that dictate what we are covering.
I just think that the tone of the coverage needs to be altered a little bit so it is not so breathless, so it is not so exorbitant, so it's not working people up into a frenzy. I think the No. 1 priority is to find the children, not to anger or excite the viewers.
HILGEMAN: But I think that anger and excitement can also mobilize people to want to get that safety information.
WARBURTON: Right. Right.
HILGEMAN: There has to be something that gets their attention. And with that, it can be empowering, ultimately. It may start with fear and awareness, but it can ultimately become empowering, with taking the opportunity to protect one's own children.
NEVILLE: And, Matthew, you know, you say about in terms of the tone of voice you use. I mean, so, if a news anchor came on totally detached and said "hi, everybody, another child was abducted today," that would be a big problem. I mean, we are all people too. So, when we talk about these cases, yes, we are journalists and, yes, we should be objective. But these are children we are talking about, so you -- I mean, I cannot come on and talk about a story like that without having it touch my heart.
WARBURTON: Right. Also, what the news media should be doing is -- I think that what Matthew is saying is informing the public so that they can be cautious and aware of things, and that is what the pamphlets and the educational material says. Be cautious and aware, but don't frighten yourselves or frighten your children when you're talking about that or educating them, so that we're not -- it's not a giant panic, but it's also helpful to the general public, especially when school is starting, because that's walking to and from school...
NEVILLE: Right. You know what, Keith, hang on to me, because you are going to get into some really important information that I definitely want to share with everybody. I have to get a break in. I want to concentrate on that when we get back. And I also know that Nick (ph) is calling in from Florida. If he wouldn't mind, Nick, hold on for me, OK.
And I want to let you know that you can get a copy of the latest statistics on child abductions and information about how to protect your children by going to the Web site for the National Center For Missing and Exploited Children at missingkids.com.
And now, yet another face to take a look at. Jarkerius (ph) -- Jarkeius Adside was abducted in Miami, Florida by three unknown men during an early morning robbery in October of last year. He would be almost two years old now. His nickname is Kisha. Again, information about this child can be called into the National Center For Missing and Exploited Children at 800-843-5678.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. We're talking about abducted children. And as promised, Nick (ph) from Florida, go ahead and speak out.
NICK: You know, I wonder why with all the cable networks we've got, why we don't have one that is especially set up to where we can post all children that are missing and then send it right to the community that is, No. 1, where they are missing from, but nationwide. And that way, just like we got a Home Shopping Network, why can't we have that too? Everybody will see it.
NEVILLE: You know what? That is an interesting thought you have there. What do you think about that, Matthew?
FELLING: I think that it would be a very, very worthwhile effort and I think that advertisers would jump at the chance for the opportunity to play a proactive role in supporting things where the kids are going to be exposed. And this show, this TALKBACK LIVE, you cut to the commercial twice with the children that we have not seen, and that is a responsible thing to do. We just need, if we are going...
NEVILLE: Hey, Matthew? OK, never mind...
FELLING: I'm sorry, yes. NEVILLE: You know what? I'm not going to go there with you considering the subject. So, let me go ahead and get Nina here from Georgia.
NINA: It's Nina. Well...
NEVILLE: Oh, it's Nina. OK, hi, Nina.
NINA: Hi. I think, you know, this needs to be on the news. I think, you know, the families involved, the thing that I worry about is the feelings of the families as they are going through this emotionally. I have two grown children and have four grandchildren, so I wouldn't like somebody coming up, shoving, you know, a camera in my face as I am worried, et cetera, about my children or grandchildren.
But I do think that, you know, you can interview the parent or parents and find out if they want to plead for their children's lives. I understand that. But then I think, you know, the media needs to back off and let the family have a little room to spend with the other members of their family. And if the outcome is not...
NEVILLE: Right. Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying. I appreciate your comments, Nina. And I would like to hear what Georgia might have to say in response to that.
HILGEMAN: Well, my experience with the Vanished Children's Alliance with victim's families is that they are very eager to get media attention, and will not rest because they know that they can get much more coverage and information about their missing child than any poster distribution could ever think about it. So, even though it may be tiring and may be intrusive, it can be upsetting, often, they are, in some sense, grateful for that opportunity.
We wish that all families of missing children could have the opportunity to get their case out there. As I indicated, there are over a million children that disappear in this country from a variety of categories. And most of those families don't get that.
Now, on the other hand, it is important sometimes for families to have a liaison between the media and themselves. We at Vanished Children's Alliance have acted in that capacity, so we can sort of set the boundaries, can make sure that the key points are getting out there, if they have to talk in 10-second sound bites.
NEVILLE: Right.
HILGEMAN: So, the critical information is out there rather than having them not have any assistance with the media, and most of these families have never been in front of the media before.
NEVILLE: Right. You know, I want to get some important information out here from Keith before we have to go to break. And, Keith, I wanted you to talk to us a little bit about how parents can inform and empower their children. WARBURTON: One of the best commercials I ever saw for the anti- drug program was the dad pretending to be the drug pusher and talking to the child, and the child giving the answers. One of the best things that parents can do is role play with the kids, whether it's at your house or whether it's when you go to the mall, and you role play with them, and say "hey, I am going to be the role player, I am going to be the bad guy," I am -- and go through the classic examples of, "hey, I got a little puppy, do you want to see the puppy," or, "I need directions, come near my car," and have the kid interact -- or the child interact and give the right answers.
There's nothing better than them to have gone through a practice leg. And like I said before, you don't want to scare the child. You just want to make the child aware of the classic examples of lures that these people use.
And also it's important -- and the literature says -- these people don't look like the drooling child molester that you may picture. They rely on the fact that they can blend into the crowd, that they are one of the people that you would not expect. And that is what -- so, they don't frighten the children. That is what they rely on.
So, what you have to look for is odd behavior, not odd-looking people, not strange-looking people. It is the behavior. And one of the things about modern society, most people have cell phones. Take a few minutes to look around when you go to the playground or when you are driving to and from school with the kids and see if there is somebody parked at a bus stop, a lone man that should not be there.
Give your local police department a call. Let them be aware of these people. They can go check it out. And it may lead to some information that this person was stalking some kids. We in law enforcement rely on the people in the community to be our eyes and ears. We can't be every place, so you have to help us out.
NEVILLE: And, Keith, we often talk about small children being the most vulnerable, but in fact the majority of those taken are in the 15-to-17-year-old range, like the girls in California. Does there need to be more education for teenagers?
WARBURTON: There does, because your basic teenager thinks they're invulnerable, they're invincible.
One of the things that the parents have to look out for is Internet safety. And these Web sites have some helpful hints on that. These chat rooms that teenagers go into, they are magnets for sexual predators. So there has to be education on that, too.
HILGEMAN: And I think along with that is the law enforcement training, because oftentimes that category immediately gets determined to be runaways, when in fact they may be abduction victims. So we have to respond to any report of a missing child as a critical incident.
NEVILLE: Georgia Hilgeman, Matthew Felling and Keith Warburton, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
WARBURTON: Thank you.
HILGEMAN: Thank you.
NEVILLE: And we'll take another break.
Before we do, I have another picture to show you, this one of 15- year-old Jessica Nuelle (ph) and 12-year-old Jamie Allums. Authorities say these children were abducted by their noncustodial father, Eugene Timothy Allums, in December of last year. They could be traveling in a 1989 white Ford Escort with Florida plate T14WAU. Eugene Allums has a large tattoo of an eagle on one arm and a number of tattoos on the other.
If you see them, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1-800-843-5678.
We'll be back in a moment.
Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE: Take a look at this flyer. Did this mother go too far in her personal crusade to stop her sons from smoking?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN PAAPE, MOTHER: When I was a kid, I sort of wish my parents would have done that or some of the other people in the community would have spoke up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: But Karen Paape's twin sons are not feeling the love just yet. Can Karen shame them into seeing tobacco her way? Or do you have a better idea?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
OK, what do you do when you catch your kid smoking? Well, Karen Paape's twin boys took up the habit when they were 12. They are now 16 and she's trying to shame them into quitting. She has their pictures posted around town, with the request, "If you see them smoking, please call the police," signed "their loving parents."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAAPE: So, I went up to their room with my camera. And I said: "Smile, boys. If you don't want to smile, that's OK, too."
"Mom, what are you doing now?"
You can't mess with a mother and her children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right. Well, I can tell you that Gavin and Bradley aren't too happy about the public humiliation. Gavin says he smokes to keep his anger in check. Brad says he smokes when he's bored. Did mom do the right thing?
We have our own experts here today. Sandy Banks is a family advice columnist who writes about family and social issues for "The L.A. Times."
Hi, Sandy.
SANDY BANKS, FAMILY ADVICE COLUMNIST, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Hi. How are you?
NEVILLE: OK. I'm good.
And Sari Locker is an advice columnist and author of several books including her latest, "Sari Says: The Real Dirt on Everything From Sex to School."
Welcome, ladies.
SARI LOCKER, AUTHOR, "SARI SAYS": Hi.
BANKS: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK, Sandy you are up first on this one. Is this tactic going to work or is it likely to backfire?
BANKS: Well, I am not sure it is going to work, but I think it is a valuable tactic. And it's probably one of the only things a mother can do.
Teenagers are notoriously hard to control. And it seems to me, the value in this is not so much to get them to stop smoking, but to make them realize that your mother loves you and she will go to any length to get you to do the right thing. It is a message more than it is a tool to wield to make them do what you want them to do.
NEVILLE: OK, I have Bianca here in the audience from California.
What do you say?
BIANCA: I am in complete agreement with it. I think, in some ways, we are unable to help our children get away from the media hype, the nicotine addiction, the attempt to look mature of our young daughter. For instance, I have an 18-year-old. She has smoked since she was 12.
If I had thought that humiliating her would have worked, you are darn right I would have. I have used humor. I have fallen out like I was the rat poisoned. I have done everything to try to convince her this is not the way I want her to live her life. And that doesn't work. So I agree with the mother.
NEVILLE: But, now, when you first found out -- did you find out when she was 12?
BIANCA: No, of course not. I didn't find out until 14. And I thought, how many ways can she get this problem, can she get this cigarette in her home? How many ways? Her friends found ways to buy it, vending machines. I was unhappy with the ways that it got into her hands.
NEVILLE: So, what did you do? I know you said you tried humor. But at first, what did you do?
BIANCA: Well, of course I was upset. I educated her. "We don't smoke. Why would you use this as a way to feel mature? Go out with mommy. Have dinner with us. Why are you doing it in this way?" But the addiction was stronger than my daughter. And what do we do as parents? I think humiliating her would have worked even better.
NEVILLE: Hey, Sari, one of the guys, one of the twins said that: "Look, I was trying to do the right thing. I was telling my mom. I am being on the up-and-up, letting her know that we smoke." And then he gets upset because she is doing this. So, is this a matter of maybe, I don't know, betraying trust in some way?
LOCKER: I think so.
Shame and humiliation do not stop a nicotine addiction. Teenagers need a lot more support. And they need actual instruction on how to get over the addiction to cigarettes. Invading their privacy by doing these sniff tests, things like that, really does not help the problem either. Teenagers should be allowed to develop their own identity and feel some freedom.
But when they do get in trouble, for example, with an addiction to cigarettes, parents can help them, be their allies, be their support system. "And I can give you some information on what we can do to help teenagers when they are smoking."
NEVILLE: I have someone calling in now from Virginia: Richard, who smokes.
Richard, what do you say about this?
CALLER: Well, I applaud the mother for what she is doing. It is great.
I started smoking when I was 15 years old. I have a patch on right now, trying to quit smoking. And it is no less than a drug habit. It is so hard to quit. I applaud the mother's efforts. I think we need to strengthen laws and make retailers very much accountable. It was so easy. I started by going to a complex next door, jumping over the fence. It was an adult complex. And there was a cigarette machine. And I started because I was cool.
And, yes, I am real cool now.
NEVILLE: Exactly. You thought you were cool.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: What is your name, Zenelle? Zenelle, what do you say?
ZENELLE: I say that humiliation could work for some parents. But all children are different. And they react different to different ways of getting them to do things. So, you would have to find different tactics that work for you and for your children. And humiliation might work for some. It might not work for others.
NEVILLE: Now, you know, Sandy, this mother we are talking about here, Karen Paape, she says that she tried everything. She took away the boys' computers, took away TV time for them. Nothing worked. So, I don't know. Was there some other method she should have tried?
BANKS: Well, I can't think of another method. And I speak as the mother of three children, two of them teenagers.
Part of being a teenager is rebelling against your parents, is breaking away. And I am not sure these boys -- people talk about it being an addiction. And it is. But these boys are also making a statement with their smoking. And I think the mother is making a statement with her posters. And it is a valuable statement. And it is that: "These are the values of this family. What you are doing does not conform. And I am going to hold you up publicly and make that statement."
And I think that is really important. I think that, if they don't stop for themselves, you can perhaps shame them into stopping for you, for your parents. My daughter has a poster on her bedroom wall that I put up there that says, "Smoking weed might not kill you, but it may kill your mother."
(LAUGHTER)
BANKS: And I think that is the point that they are making here.
NEVILLE: That's a good one. I like it.
BANKS: "This hurts me." So I think it is a valuable thing.
NEVILLE: Listen, I think I have a mother-son duo here. Do I?
TERRY: Yes.
NEVILLE: Terry, what is on your mind?
TERRY: Well, I don't know if this mother has tried taking her sons to see maybe someone who is critically ill, perhaps in a hospital, with a disease caused by smoking, someone who is going to die. And by these children seeing what this person is going through, that might be something that they would think about.
NEVILLE: Did you do this for Mike?
TERRY: Well, Michael's great grandfather died from a disease caused by smoking. And my husband and I talked to him about how painful that was for the great grandfather and the family.
NEVILLE: Did that help you, Mike?
MIKE: Yes, it did, a lot.
NEVILLE: So, you're not going to smoke, then, right?
MIKE: Never.
TERRY: He hasn't tried.
NEVILLE: That's good. That's good.
Listen, I have to take a break right now, but when we come back: When your kids break the rules, what do you do to keep them in line? I want to hear from you on this one as well at home, OK? So give me a call or e-mail me.
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
How far would you go to stop your kids from smoking? We are talking about a Wisconsin woman who made wanted posters -- that's right -- of her sons and put them all around town, asking people to turn them into the police if they caught them smoking.
Robin, you kind of did something similar, didn't you?
ROBIN: Well, yes, I did.
I called the chief of police. And I told him and all the officers to -- if they ever saw him smoking -- and we do live in a small town -- to arrest him and take him and scare him and call me. And we would handle it that way, because he is not going to smoke.
NEVILLE: So, Josh, what do you think about that?
JOSH: I am glad she did it. Smoking is a bad thing to do. And being that half my family smokes, I would never try to do that.
NEVILLE: Well, good for you. How old are you?
JOSH: Thirteen.
NEVILLE: All right. You stay on the right track, OK? Thank you.
Hey, listen, I know I have a call coming in from Louisiana, my favorite state.
Kathleen, what do you say?
CALLER: I have to say that I don't agree with what the mother is doing with the poster board situation. I think that the parents -- or the children would actually end up resenting her in the end for that. I think education is the key in that situation.
NEVILLE: Well, that it is interesting you say that, because I have Keith here, who is also from Louisiana. I think you are sharing that idea, right?
KEITH: Yes.
I was saying that, if you are a child or a teenager, you will probably get ridiculed by your friends from the warning posters being up. And they would probably make fun of you and it will only make them rebel more just to keep up their image in school, and so they won't get ridiculed and teased.
NEVILLE: So, they will have to act cool in order to be cool in front of their friends?
KEITH: Pretty much, yes.
LOCKER: Arthel?
NEVILLE: Yes?
LOCKER: You notice that that nice young man who was just speaking is the only teenager we have heard from so far who was not there with his parents. So, what we just got to hear was little bit about what a teen says candidly when he is alone.
And it is true. If a mom puts up a poster to ridicule her kid, that is not going to make these kids stop smoking. It is going to make them feel like they want to rebel further. There are specific things that parents can do if they have a good rapport with their teenagers to help their teenagers kick the habit.
And would you like me to go through some of these?
NEVILLE: Absolutely. Give me about four of those things.
LOCKER: The first thing is, they can work with their teenagers to pick a date when the teen would be willing to stop smoking. Let's say two weeks from now. And then, over the course of those two weeks, sit down together every day. Talk about what their triggers are, the things that make them smoke. The teenagers in this story, they say -- one of them said his anger makes him smoke. Another says his depression.
So, the parent can help them get involved in a sport or a club or an activity to channel those emotions, to work through them. Then what they need to do is figure out exactly how many cigarettes the teenager is smoking every day and then, every day, try to cut back a little bit and a little bit.
Talk to your doctor about if using the nicotine patch or chewing gum, nicotine gum, would help, so that you are gradually weaning the teenager off of cigarettes with the support and with the encouragement, and using yourself, the parent, as the one who is helping them in this process.
And then, finally, when, a couple of weeks down the road, you reach this date that you chose, that will be the cold-turkey date, when the teenager is supposed to stop smoking entirely. And these methods are shown to be more effective than the kind of shame and humiliation.
NEVILLE: That's interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
LOCKER: Thank you.
There is lots more information people can get when about how to stop smoking if they go to the American Cancer Society's Web site. It's Cancer.org. Cancer.org will give them more instruction. You can put the word smoking in the search engine on that Cancer.org site and it will give you more information.
Almost every town and a lot of high schools today have groups to help people stop smoking. That will work way more than the humiliation. Humiliation and shame only get teenagers to want to hide and to want to rebel.
NEVILLE: Sandy, what do you want to say?
BANKS: Well, that suggests that the kids want to stop smoking. And I don't think we saw anything in the telling of this story that suggests that they are ready to stop. These kind of things take a lot of effort on the part of the kids. And that would be great if the parents can get them to the point where they are willing to do these things.
But I think that they have to get to that point. And right now, a big part of it is that they just want to do what they want to do. And that is part of being a teenager. But I think it's also something that parents have to say -- have to set limits and boundaries.
NEVILLE: OK, I have an e-mail I want to share with the audience right now. It is from Jay in California: "The mom's chances of success are small. The tobacco industry and peer pressure are up against her."
Listen, I have to take a break right now. I have some audience comments I want to share with you after we come back.
So don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about a Wisconsin mom who used some pretty unusual tactics to get her 16-year-old boys to stop smoking. She posted their mug shots around town and asked residents to turn them in to the police if they saw them smoking. And, Sari, I think it is. You have something interesting to say. you think that money could play a role in this?
LOCKER: Definitely.
In order to convince a teenager to stop smoking, appeal to where they are developmentally. They want to be able to be looking cool and acting cool. And if you say something to them like, "If you save the money that you would be spending on cigarettes, save that money in a jar, prove to me you are not buying cigarettes and show me the money at the end of the week, and, as the parent, I will double that money. Don't buy cigarettes with the money. Buy CDs. Buy a cool new..."
NEVILLE: So bribe them.
LOCKER: ... "new shirt. Buy new sneakers."
It is not so much of a bribe.
NEVILLE: Sandy, what do you think about that?
LOCKER: It's a little bit of a bribe, but it's developmentally what they are in sync with.
BANKS: It is a bribe. And I think it will just make them more clever at finding ways to get the cigarettes without spending their money, if this is what they want to do.
LOCKER: So, how do you think we can convince them to stop? Because humiliation is going to make them want to rebel more.
BANKS: I am not sure you can convince them to stop. I think, when children are teenagers, they have minds of their own. The smart thing to do -- hindsight being 20/20 -- is to begin when they are very young, teaching them that this is the wrong thing to do, helping them to stand up to peer pressure, making sure they have other outlets.
One of boys said that he is now going to try playing basketball more so that he is not so bored, because he smokes because is he bored. Get them involved when they are young in things that will not give them the time or the desire or the inclination to try to smoke.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Excuse me for one second, Sari.
LOCKER: Along those lines, there's actually a little bit of good news from the Centers for Disease Control in terms of statistics.
NEVILLE: Sari, can you hear me. Sari?
LOCKER: I'm sorry.
NEVILLE: Excuse me just for one second, because I want to get Clayton in here. He has something interesting to say, I think. CLAYTON: It is important to remember that teenagers are able to get basically anything they want. If they want cigarettes, they are going to find the means to get it. You need to attack them where it hurts the most. Make them hate the one thing that they want the most.
So I thought a good idea -- and I have seen some people, some parents that have done it -- is take their kids and buy them a pack of cigarettes and make them smoke the entire pack back to back to back until they get so sick they just want to basically throw up from it. And if you catch them doing it again, sit them right back down, make them smoke the pack again and again.
BANKS: That is a great old-fashioned idea.
NEVILLE: Well, there is an idea. There is an idea.
LOCKER: Excellent idea.
NEVILLE: Oh, my goodness.
Listen, I have to run now, but I want Ms. Flossey (ph) here to stand up for me, Ms. Flossey. I want to do something quickly before the show ends. Ms. Flossey wants to say hello to her friends in Saint Augustine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Florida, Saint Augustine, all my friends.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
Listen, Sandy Banks, Sari Locker, thank you so much for joining me here today.
We are out of time. I'm Arthel Neville. I will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE.
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