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CNN Talkback Live

When a Mother Gives a Child Up For Adoption, Should It Be Public Information?; Can Pro Sports Accept Gay Athletes?

Aired August 07, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. Five Florida women want to put their babies up for adoption. No big deal you'd think, right? Except that before they can do it they have to publish the details of their sexual past in a local newspaper. You'll want to hear all about this one, so get ready to give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.

And later, are pro-sports ready for openly gay athletes? Find out what former Major League Baseball player Billy Bean is telling other gay athletes about coming out in the majors.

Then, has John Rocker's mouth gotten him into hot water again? Find out what the Texas Ranger said this time.

But we're going to begin in Florida, where we are joined by Attorney Charlotte Danciu. She represents the birth mothers I just told you about. She'll join us in a moment. Also with us is Jeffrey Leving, a father's rights attorney in Chicago.

Want to welcome you to the show, sir. How are you?

JEFFREY LEVING, FATHERS' RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHICAGO: I'm doing fine.

NEVILLE: OK. I know you are familiar with this law. You are in Chicago, and you're representing the fathers in this particular story.

But let's go ahead and put this out there. Let's say I'm in Florida. I want to put my baby up for an adoption -- up for adoption. What do I have to do?

LEVING: Well, right now there are very strict notice requirements in Florida, and if a mother wants to place her child up for adoption, she must publish notice listing specific information that could be useful in the biological father realizing that he has a child.

NEVILLE: Specific information, sir, like, for instance, she has to mention her name, the birth mother's name. She has to describe herself. She has to give the name or description of the father or possible fathers and the date and city of conception. LEVING: Yes. Exactly. You are 100 percent correct, and that specific information is what makes this law very, very important. Now the prior Florida law did require publication, but very general publication requirements. So this new law has the teeth to it to notify biological dads so they can protect their rights and their children's rights to a relationship with the father.

NEVILLE: OK. There are a bunch of sides to this particular story, though. On the one hand, coming from your perspective, I'm sure that you agree with this because you want to avoid those unfortunate situations where three years later, or some time later, a father realizes, because he didn't know, that he had a child that had been given up for adoption.

Suddenly, this child is placed with another family, and the biological father says, wait a minute. He comes back; he goes I want custody. Then there goes a really horrible battle to get custody of this child. And, of course, no one, including the child, should have to go through that. So, on the one hand, that's the idea behind this law and the reason why you are in favorite of it. Correct?

LEVING: That's another reason. There was a terrible fight over Baby Emily (ph) in Florida, where the mother gave the child away. Then the biological father allegedly realized that he had a child out there, and he started litigating. And that case went on for three years. And that is the type of litigation we want to avoid. So this notice requirement could make adoption cases proceed efficiently and fairly and not turn into wars.

NEVILLE: OK. But do you feel that it's fair, speaking of fair, to have a woman have to put so much information about herself, a very private information about herself, in the newspaper?

LEVING: I think it's very fair because when a person engages in sexual intercourse, they know there's a realistic possibility that a child will be born or they may contract aids or venereal disease. And when a child is born, then there are policy obligations to protect the best interest of the child. And the better interest of the child, to me, is more significant than the mother being embarrassed.

NEVILLE: OK. But let's talk about this, sir. Let's say the father happens to be a teenager. Let's say the father happens to be a married man. Let's say the father happens to be an older person who slept with an underage person. Do you honestly think those people would want to come forward?

LEVING: Well it depends. I think, generally, if you have a responsible father, he will want to come forward, and even if he doesn't, his medical history may be crucial to the protection of the child while the child is growing.

NEVILLE: I mean I understand what you are saying. But you are making it sound like it's all so hunky-dory, and usually it is not.

LEVING: No, it's not hunky-dory. And we have issues here, policy issues, morality issues, political issues. There are social issues. And the reality of it is, if a woman engages in intercourse, we need to focus in on the best interest of the child.

NEVILLE: Yes, but she's the one who has to put all her business out in the newspaper. That's a little bit unfair. What about the guys? Let's mention their names.

LEVING: You know, the real problem here is there are a lot of women that see a child as a piece of property that they can just give away and they could just give away the child without any notice to the biological father. Morally, I find that offensive.

NEVILLE: And I don't think you can say a lot of women feel that. Unfortunately, there are some women who might not have the attachment that they should to have children. And it's unfortunate that those things happen.

LEVING: It is unfortunate, very unfortunate. And there are a lot of good women out there, but there are also women out there that engage in parental alienation and believe fathers have absolutely no rights in parenting and believe that men are biological necessities, but social accidents. And we need to focus on the best interest of children and protecting children, because they are the future of our society.

NEVILLE: Of course we have to protect the children. Let me let Brenda (ph) from Pennsylvania. I think she has something to say to you, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. I'm glad that you said that there are women who have respect for their children because I am a mother of two. There's some information I can't share off, in terms of adoption. But I work with adoption. And I know what you are saying is a bunch of horse hockey. You know? Bottom line, if men had babies, then we wouldn't have problems with laws. It's -- the issue is not about women. It's about the parenting. It's about both children.

And if adoptive parents choose to do these, then they have to go by some rules too. If you are going to put information about women out in the paper, then the men should be put out too because the word is -- and young people, you know, they're all -- both sides have immoral behaviors. So, gentleman, I hope that you are not my lawyer one day because you'd put me in jail with those antiquated ideas.

LEVING: Well, my focus is protecting society. And you can't protect our society if we ignore the rights of children. And unfortunately, in our society, the rights of women are superior to the rights of children and fathers, and I believe that's an injustice. And if you look at my Web site, DadsRights.com, you'll get more information about abortion, reproductive rights and why I do the work I do.

NEVILLE: OK. You know, I want to bring in the other side on this issue right now. Joining us now is Charlotte Danciu. She represents several women who are challenging this Florida law.

Thank you for being with us today. CHARLOTTE DANCIU, MOTHERS' RIGHTS ATTORNEY, FLORIDA: You're welcome.

NEVILLE: We'd like to hear your perspective now. We've had a chance to talk to Mr. Leving regarding this particular law, and I want to see how you see this and what it does to women.

DANCIU: Well, the reason we've brought this challenge is because I'm faced with a situation where I have to publish a 12-year-old's name in the newspaper in order for her to place her child for adoption that is a product of a rape. I'm also forced to place the name of a 14-year-old, along with several young boys in her high school that she had sexual relations with, in the newspaper in order for her to have her child adopted.

In addition to that, I have numerous other women, women who are members of the community who may have made a mistake and these sort of details must be published in the state of Florida, according to the Adoption Act of 2001. And we feel that's an invasion of their privacy rights.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Mr. Leving, so what do you say to that? You have a 12-year-old who has to put her information in the paper? And what about a father who raped someone? Do you really think that he wants responsibility?

LEVING: If a man raped a woman, it's unlikely he wants responsibility, but that issue is irrelevant to this discussion.

NEVILLE: Why so, sir.

LEVING: Because a circuit court judge already determined in Florida that it is -- that that is unconstitutional and a mother does not have to publish to notify if she was raped.

NEVILLE: Ms. Danciu?

DANCIU: That case is actually my case. And the ruling only came down last week, and it only applies to the case of forced sexual battery. However, what about the mentally handicapped young lady who has sexual relations with her brother and must have her name published because it was consensual? There is no distinction whether it's a minor, whether or not it was a date rape. It only outlawed the publication of the name when it was the case of a rape. And that is the concern. That is why we are taking it up to the district court of appeals.

NEVILLE: So what's your contention? What's your solution, Ms. Danciu?

DANCIU: The solution would be that men stay in touch with women when they have sexual relations with them, number one. And if they think that they want to parent their child, they remain involved. There's also such thing as paternity registry that some states have, where men can acknowledge their desire to parent their child, and no adoption can go through without a check of that registry. I think that publication of not only the woman's name, but also all of these men's names, can have a tremendous affect on many lives, including men who might be unjustly named. So think about their families, their wives, their children. This can absolutely devastate adoptions and increase the rate of abortion and babies being dumped in trash cans.

NEVILLE: Mr. Leving, hang on for me. I know you have something to say. I want to let you jump in. And I know I have a caller calling in from New Jersey. Denise (ph), I think, is standing by. We've got some audience members who want to speak out on this as well. So listen, when we come back, I want to hear from you as well. You tell us how far a woman should have to go to determine the father of her child. Give me a call or e-mail me, OK?

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. We are talking about how far a woman should have to go to find the father of her baby before she gives it up for adoption. Mr. Leving, I promised I would let you go when we came back.

LEVING: Thank you. First of all, the argument that fathers should stay in touch with the mothers of the children doesn't make sense because a lot of mothers conceal pregnancy from the dads. There are relationships where the relationships disintegrate, and the mothers will move to another city and conceal their residence, so that makes absolutely no sense as I see it.

NEVILLE: Hey, you know what? Go ahead.

LEVING: Secondly -- I'm sorry. And I'll make this real quick.

NEVILLE: No, no, no. Take your time, sir.

LEVING: Secondly, the allegation that if we have this type of notice requirement in the law that this will cause mothers to throw their children in trash cans, one, I don't buy that because, in many states in the United States, there are baby abandonment laws where mothers, under proper circumstances, can abandon their babies and not even let the dad know. That's how far and how incredibly pro-mom and anti-dad and family legislation is going.

And finally, if a mother is going to throw her baby in a trash can, often those mothers are suffering from serious psychological disorders, and the state of the law is going to have no impact on those types of people. Often they are drug addicts or they have other problems.

NEVILLE: Ms. Danciu, aside from those unfortunate cases of rape and incest, what do you say about some women who won't let men know that they were pregnant and those fathers don't have an option?

DANCIU: I think the woman cannot escape the fact of a pregnancy. The man can. And it's rare that I have met a woman, in the 18 years of adoptions that I have been doing, that doesn't love her baby and wouldn't like to keep her baby if that were possible. But I think that you are doing a balancing test here and you are assuming that there are all these men out there that want to parent these children. And I just don't think that is the case.

I have had very few, if any, men come forward to assert their parental rights. And if they did, there wouldn't be an adoption. I think we have to start thinking about the best interest of the child. We have to start thinking about the woman's rights. I mean the woman could have an abortion, but she doesn't; she brings the child to life. And there has to be some small window, certainly, for the man to come in and assert parental rights, but I think this is all as a result of the indiscriminate sexual relations people are having. The woman is left with the pregnancy. What is she to do?

And I think a man has to come forward, and he has to come forward early if he wants to parent the child. And like I said, there are registries available in some states, where the man meets a woman in the club and they have sex and they don't use protection and a child results or he thinks a child might result, which is the obvious result that can occur, he could register with the state. And that child could never be adopted. But I just don't think that is the case.

And I think going to the extreme of publishing teenagers', publishing women's names and publishing men's name who might be unjustly accused in the newspaper, with all the sorted details of how the child was conceived, is going to an extreme that will just so negatively impact adoptions in Florida. The entire statute needs to be repealed. And that is what we plan to accomplish with our appeals.

NEVILLE: I'm going to get Denise (ph) in here now. Denise is holding on the phone from New Jersey. Go ahead, Denise (ph).

CALLER: I would really -- can you hear me?

NEVILLE: Yes.

CALLER: OK. I would really like to see this totally turned around and have the men put an ad in the paper saying, this is my name; this is my address; this is my phone number. If I have slept with you, if I have made you pregnant, please contact me because I want a part of my child's life. Instead of denigrating women and rape victims the way that this law is suggesting, I would really like to see the ...

LEVING: This law doesn't apply to rape victims.

CALLER: Oh, sir, I can't even address your frame of mind. I really can't.

LEVING: The law doesn't apply to rape victims so if we're going to discuss the ...

CALLER: No, I'm saying your misogynous frame of mind. DANCIU: It applies to minors. It applies to 14-year-olds. It applies to all women, no matter what their circumstances. Some women may not, for a reason, tell their parents that they are pregnant. They may not want the world to know that they are doing an adoption. And, in fact, I'm surprised that men would be in favor of this in light of the fact that you, sir, could be named as a father unjustly. And what would your family say? I think that there are other means of accomplishing this.

LEVING: That's a -- there are no other means in accomplishing this. I'm from Chicago, and in Illinois, we do have a registry, a putative father's registry. But the problem is Illinois doesn't have the notice requirement in the statute that Florida has. So Florida is far superior to Illinois in legislating and protecting rights of children and fathers as compared to Illinois. So to give you an idea ...

DANCIU: No, absolutely ...

LEVING: In Illinois, you have a registry, but no notice requirement, so dads don't know -- a lot of dads can't register because they don't know they are dads because there's no notice requirement in the law.

DANCIU: But if they have sex, then they know they could be a dad. And, therefore, they have an obligation to get in touch with the registry. An actually I think that's far superior to Florida's laws.

LEVING: How can -- first of all if a dad has sex...

NEVILLE: OK, excuse me sir. Excuse me, sir. I have several audience members. I have to let them get in. Go ahead, Melvin (ph).

MELVIN: I just want to say that I'm appalled by the law. I think it's a punishment. And I don't think it's the way to solve the problems that our society has. I understand that a lot of men need to learn to take care of their children, but going about this is just a punishment to the women who are pregnant.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir. OK. And I have another young lady, Jennifer (ph). Stand up for me.

JENNIFER: Yes. I just had a question. What about the men who are published that are not the father of these babies and their name is put out in the public? Will anything be done to say, well, no, they were not the father. I mean their reputation has been ruined.

DANCIU: Absolutely. That's our point.

LEVING: Well, if think had sexual intercourse then they should be willing to take the risk that their name will be published. The issue here isn't what's in the best interest of potential dads or potential moms. The issue here is what's in the best interest of these children, to protect these children so they can get medical histories from the paternal side of the family so these children have their rights to know their dads. And that far outweighs embarrassing men or women.

NEVILLE: OK. Listen. I have to -- Charlotte, excuse me. I've got to take a break right here. I'll let you speak up when we come back. I have an e-mail I want to share with you when I come back. I've got audience members who want to jump in. I have some further questions. So do me a favor; stay right there. We have a lot more to say about the sex lives of birth moms and who needs to know. TALKBACK LIVE back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody, to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking with attorneys Charlotte Danciu and Jeffrey Leving about a Florida law that forces women to detail their sex lives in local newspapers if they want to give up their babies for adoption. And before I get to Smorie (ph) here, Ms. Danciu, I wanted to ask you, what newspapers are we talking about? Let's say the woman lives in Florida. But the man in question may have moved to Seattle.

DANCIU: Right. It requires publication in every city that she lived or traveled in in the 12 months before the birth of the child where conception may have occurred. So if you have a young woman who moves from New York to Florida and during that time she has sexual relations, conceivably you would have to publish in every city between New York and Florida under this new law.

NEVILLE: That's ridiculous. What do you say, Smorie (ph)?

DANCIU: I agree.

SMORIE: Well, my question is, if you are going to do that, what safeguards are they actually going to put in place to make this information that the woman puts in there about her past isn't used against her in a job interview or anything else like that.

DANCIU: And that's actually another issue because sometimes we have abusive relationships or in the case of the sexual assaults where the man can find her and this information would potentially cause harm to the woman as well. I mean, we are penalizing her for carrying the baby and trying to do the right thing by giving it up for adoption. Granted, if there's a man who cares, he should be able to come forward, but we can't keep the door open forever for him to acknowledge his responsibility.

LEVING: What we are doing here is we're focusing on the individual rights of mothers without responsibility. With sex comes responsibility. And what is going on here is indicative as to why family values in America are starting to disintegrate. I mean we are looking...

DANCIU: And she can't escape the responsibility as he can. He can have a one night stand and disappear, but she can't escape because it's in her tummy.

LEVING: We're off focus here. We're completely off focus here. NEVILLE: What happens if the father never comes forth? They never find the father, can the woman still put her baby up for adoption?

DANCIU: Well, in the state of Florida, she can after we've done this diligent search and this publication. But unfortunately in Florida, he also now has a two-year opportunity after the adoption is finalized to come forward and claim the child.

LEVING: Yes, but how can he come forward and claim the child if he doesn't get notice that he's the dad? The purpose ...

DANCIU: But what if he runs into the woman? Once again, the issue is notice. When he has sex, he has notice that a child might result. Why can't he be responsible for staying in touch?

NEVILLE: OK. Let me get ...

LEVING: The responsibility requires two people to remain in touch.

NEVILLE: Scott (ph).

LEVING: If the mom wants to alienate the child from the dad, she's going to disappear. And how is he going to find her?

NEVILLE: Scott (ph) from Tennessee, what do you say?

SCOTT: I was just wondering why isn't the law being covered by the age of consent? You can't buy a beer in a lot of states until 21. You can't vote until you are 18. How do they have the right to publish a child that's maybe 12 in a newspaper?

LEVING: Because a child can have sex when the child is 12 years old. And a child can be born. And we have to focus in on protecting that child. Unfortunately, our society has turned, in part, into an "I" centered society where the focus is on me-me-me-me-me and not minor children being born out of recreational sex and various other types of sexual activities.

DANCIU: But how likely is an 18-year-old man to come forward and claim that he had sex with a 12-year-old child?

LEVING: If it ...

DANCIU: I mean how likely is that? How many men have registered with the paternity registry in the state of Chicago?

LEVING: Many that have notice that they are the biological dad. I get calls from fathers every single day in Chicago that want to be responsible, that want to love their children, that want to visit.

DANCIU: Then why do we have so many children on the welfare roles right now? Why do we have such a crisis?

LEVING: Because ... NEVILLE: OK. Hang on for me.

LEVING: Because of fatherlessness, because one of the most reliable predictors of poverty in America is growing up fatherless. And this notice requirement can ensure that a lot of children will grow up with dads. But a lot of people are against this law for various reasons, but if this law is determined unconstitutional, then what's going to happen is a lot more adoptive parents will get children. A lot more lawyers are going to make a lot more money handling adoptions, most likely. And a lot of dads will lose their children.

NEVILLE: Well, I have a call coming in now from Dennis (ph), who I think shares your viewpoint, Mr. Leving. Go ahead, Dennis (ph). You're live.

CALLER: Well, yes, I live in St. Petersburg, Florida, and I agree welcome the state wholeheartedly. Let me tell you. These women, they have just -- they do the same thing that men do. They have sex and they leave and don't keep in touch just like a man can have sex and don't keep in touch.

And like my situation, it was three years before I found out that I was a father. And it took me two years to get custody of my child. It wasn't an adoption situation, it was just she didn't want to let me know that I was the father for whatever reason. And I think that we should have a right to know.

And another thing, I think that we pass this equal rights amendment and have equal say in the courts, then we'll be better off as a society.

NEVILLE: Thank you, sir, for calling in. And I think when you hear a story like that, the bottom line, it's really about the children, ultimately. We got to take care of the children.

Charlotte Danciu and Jeffrey Leving, thank you very much, both of you, for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

DANCIU: You're welcome.

LEVING: Thank you.

NEVILLE: Great.

And when we come back, another foul play for John Rocker. Find out why he's defending himself yet again.

And former Major Leaguer Billy Bean has something to say about gay athletes coming out of the closet. We'll hear from him in a moment.

TALKBACK LIVE continues. Don't go anywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE: In the world of pro sports, do gay athletes strike out when they come out? On the had hit HBO series "Arliss," art imitates life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "Arliss," HBO)

BILLY BEAN: I hate to say it, but I don't think he can come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Meet a former Major League Baseball player who says coming out is no day in the park.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are turning our attention now to sports. We'll talk about coming out in pro sports in just a minute.

But first, though, I want to talk about John Rocker's latest controversy. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation is calling on the Texas Rangers to reprimand the pitcher. The brouhaha is over a confrontation Rocker had with other diners at a Dallas restaurant over the weekend. Rocker is accused of making anti-gay comments to two men at a neighboring table and yelling at transgender customers outside.

Rocker acknowledges he said some things he probably shouldn't have, but says he and his girlfriend were badgered first.

OK, here to talk about it: former San Diego Padres outfielder Billy Bean. Hey Billy.

BILLY BEAN, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER: How are you doing Arthel?

NEVILLE: I'm good. Nice to see you.

BEAN: Nice to see you.

NEVILLE: All right. Jim Buzinski. Did I say it right, Mr. Buzinski?

JIM BUZINSKI, OUTSPORTS.COM: It's Buzinski, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Oh, that's easier, Buzinski -- cofounder and publisher of outsports.com, an Internet site for gay sports fans and athletes.

Welcome to both of you.

BUZINSKI: Thank you.

BEAN: Thank you.

NEVILLE: All right Jim, you're up first. What do you make of this Rocker stuff?

BUZINSKI: Well, I think we all kind of know that John Rocker is an idiot, so at a certain point you take what he says with a grain of salt.

I think if the Rangers wanted to be creative in reprimanding him, they would force had him to pitch on a gay softball team. I think that would be a fitting punishment for someone who seems to go out of his way to insult gay people and people of all different ethnicities.

NEVILLE: Billy, how do you see it?

BEAN: Well, I think that you have to kind of -- we've all come to learn that John Rocker speaks, probably, before he thinks. And whether he believes that, which obviously he does, I think if you look at the big picture and maybe, somehow, in the long run because of the comments he makes, it makes people realize how silly and prejudiced they are, and some good will come of it.

Whether it comes at his expense, it seems like that's his choice he has to make.

NEVILLE: That's interesting.

You know what, let's take a look a little bit more at the statement from Rocker.

He said, quote: "I was eating in a restaurant with my girlfriend yesterday and some customers at other tables began badgering and pestering us. It seemed as if they were trying to bait me with some suggestive comments. It was uncomfortable, but we finished our meal quickly and got up to leave. At that point," he says, "they followed us out of the restaurant and made an object scene gesture to me. At that point, I admit I was angry and said some things I probably should not have said, but I wanted to make it clear their attentions were his unwelcome. I'm a regular customer at Breadwinners, and this is the first time something like this has ever happened."

OK, so now GLAAD had something to say.

OK, GLAAD says: "This isn't an isolated incident, it's simply the latest of Rocker's homophobic remarks. And Rangers' General Manager John Hart's claim that Rocker acted appropriately would be laughable if it didn't indicate that anti-gay abuse is still acceptable in Major League Baseball. The Texas Rangers and Major League officials have an obligation to hold their players, managers and teams accountable for actions like these that disgrace the profession."

Well, Billy you were in the profession. What do you say to that? The fact that...

BEAN: Well, I think that John Rocker has invited, you know, this kind of judgment upon him everywhere he goes. He's offended a tremendous amount of people -- not only gay and lesbians but, you know, African-Americans, Latinos...

NEVILLE: You name it, he has offended them.

BEAN: He has opened the door for everybody.

And that's something that he's going to have to experience, probably for the rest of his life. And if someone wants to stand up for some abuse that they were indirectly given, that's up to that person.

But you know what, I probably would have something to say to John Rocker myself, so...

NEVILLE: OK, well listen, in the meantime Bill from California is calling in on the telephone, and I want to hear what Mr. Bill has to say.

Go ahead, Bill.

CALLER: If no one denies that those people followed him out of the restaurant and accosted him, then why would you be criticizing him? Is it because homosexuals and lesbians can get away with anything, but someone exercising their First Amendment rights is in the wrong?

BUZINSKI: Well, no. Totally not. That's his version of events; the people in the restaurant said it was unprovoked.

And John Rocker has pitched before 55,000 people in a World Series game, and if he can't handle a few people taunting him, he's not a professional. And it's just disgraceful if he can't control his emotions and has to engage in gay bashing. That's pretty disgusting.

NEVILLE: So do you think that because he's a professional athlete, then he shouldn't get emotional in situations like that?

BUZINSKI: No. What I'm saying is that, A, we have his version of events, that he was taunted. But if you can get rattled by a few people saying some things at a restaurant, you've got to show some self control.

NEVILLE: Right, now...

BUZINSKI: And we all do it in our lives every day. There's unpleasant situations, but we don't react by lashing out at the person's, you know, perceived ethnicity or sexual orientation.

NEVILLE: This is true.

According to the information I read, the waiter also said that those people did not say anything to Rocker and his girlfriend. That's what I read.

BUZINSKI: Yes, I mean, John Rocker is giving his version of events that make him look in the best possible light.

NEVILLE: OK, listen Lauren (ph) -- Laren (ph)? Lauren?

LAUREN: I think he's dumb, blind and ignorant. And he's basically digging a hole for himself, because in our society now it's basically impossible to be homophobic because you don't know who's gay and who's not. Your best friend could be gay and just hasn't told you yet.

So he needs to just deal with it.

NEVILLE: Well you know what, Lauren (ph), that gives me a nice segue because, you know what, we're going to move on now and talk about this: Is baseball or, for that matter, any professional sport ready to embrace openly gay players?

Now Billy, you find yourself at the center of controversy after a cameo on HBO's "Arliss."

You know what, let me show everyone what has some in the gay community calling for your excommunication, so to speak.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "Arliss," HBO)

BEAN: Yes, I hate to say it, but I don't think he can come out.

ROBERT WUHL, ACTOR: Neither do I, but he's being pretty idealistic.

BEAN: There's a big difference between idealistic and being realistic.

WUHL: Meaning?

BEAN: Meaning this guy's life will be under a microscope tomorrow. And no matter how much progress we think this country's had, there's a lot of people out there who are going to want him to fail.

WUHL: Don't you think there's a chance that America might embrace him?

BEAN: Not as long as fathers are taking their sons to the ballpark. They don't want to hear, daddy I want to grow up and be just like him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Now Billy, you were playing yourself on that program. Clearly this is what you believe, and if would you mind telling us why?

BEAN: Well first of all I want to, you know, congratulate, like, Jim Buzinski. He created a great platform and environment at outsports.com that lets people talk about issues and things that are topical in nature, much like this John Rocker incident.

That being said, you know, the last couple weeks the sound bites coming off of the show, you know, the question that was directed towards me was about this person's career. And the theme of the show really was about Arliss Michaels, who is the star and creator, and Robert Wuhl, who plays that character, showing compassion for his athlete, whatever his decision is.

Now, the difference of me, you know, being supportive of athletes, professional or not, wanting to come out is completely different. I'm a living example of that; that I believe that this is the way to live. My live has improved in too many ways to count.

But the idea that, is baseball ready, is another question altogether. And I am speaking just from my personal experience, not my politics. I've dedicated the last three years of my life traveling around the country speaking to, you know, students, young athletes, adults, about the empowering ability of coming out to family, parents, friends and feeling a sense of belonging, and using sports as that platform.

So it's something that, it's too -- it's an apple and it's an orange. I mean, in a perfect world, I wish every Major Leaguer who is a homosexual would be able to come out, and I wish I would have done it when I played. But...

NEVILLE: But they feel that they can't come out.

Billy, I want you to tell me why after this break.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Hey, welcome back everybody.

We're talking about whether the pro sports world is ready for openly gay athletes.

Billy Bean is here with us, and you say no.

Why do you say no, Billy.

BEAN: Well Arthel, I don't say emphatically no.

I say that the thing that is vital is that an athlete needs to understand what that decision is going to entail and how that will change his career overnight. I mean, ask Mike Piazza, just via a rumor how his life turned New York City upside-down for a month. And that's just an unfounded rumor that a writer was suggesting.

And, you know, it's something that, in my opinion, I look at it from the player's standpoint first, the individual and how difficult it is to get to the Major Leagues, and how wonderful and how much of a privilege it is to be Major League Baseball.

And the idea, from that day forward his career is really not about the ball, it's about the ramifications of his personal life.

NEVILLE: Billy, I want to be really specific here. I want to talk about you, if you don't mind.

And I want to know, how long were you in pro baseball?

BEAN: I played for 10 years professionally.

NEVILLE: Ten years professional. This entire time you did not say anything about being gay?

BEAN: Not to anyone.

NEVILLE: And you did not say that, because what were you afraid of?

BEAN: Well, I was really coming into my own and then trying to understand it over a majority of that time.

So it -- really, the idea of me feeling confident enough to come out was never even a part of my life.

If this person, you know, theoretically a player is ready, I would love to meet him and talk to him, and I would applaud that. Because where I was, and the security of my careers as a player, I just felt like I would be putting that in jeopardy.

And I have no objection to the idea that it would be, you know, a visible occurrence for the gay and lesbian community and probably promote change. But for that player, his life would kind of be in an uproar overnight.

NEVILLE: What's the problem, Billy? Why wouldn't that be accepted, being openly gay.

BEAN: I think we're -- what are we opening the show with today? About people -- players like John Rocker and the idea of homophobia still involved in sports.

I could be wrong, Arthel. I'm just saying, from my experience, what I have experienced, I wish it was different. I really do.

NEVILLE: Tell us a little bit more about what you experienced. I want to get this story and bring it on the personal level here.

BEAN: Right. Well, the ideas of what all young male athletes have been trained to understand is that, really, homosexuality is like the last link in the chain to, stereotypically, to weaknesses and bad athletes. You know, if a guy drops a ball, they'll say an epithet that says he's gay. Or if he -- another player on another team, if he's injured and he won't get up.

It's just constant reminders...

NEVILLE: I get the picture.

BEAN: ... homosexuals are weak and not strong. And that is not true. But what I'm saying is for the thousands and thousands of young athletes behind this person at the Major League level if, indeed, that experience is not positive, it's going to sway them backwards.

So we're going to lose, in the big picture, the majority -- we're getting so close to becoming so mainstream and being accepted by the content of our character and not the orientation of our sexuality that we're almost there.

And I'm afraid that one negative, highly visible experience could set us backwards. And I want us to keep moving forward. And that's what I've dedicated my life to.

NEVILLE: Jim, I haven't heard from you in a while. I'd like to know what you're thinking about this.

BUZINSKI: Well, I mean, I think there's always a possibility of it being negative, but that's not a reason to not advance rights.

And I think anybody who would do this would have really strongly considered the consequences. I mean, they would know their own situation. And so I think this person would have done enough ground work to sort of -- you know, and they wouldn't spring it on their team, kind of just haphazardly.

So I think someone who had the courage and the strength to do that would be someone who could succeed because they would have -- I mean, you'd have to live in a cave to not know what, you know, society, how they might react to it.

And I've heard Billy say -- and I agree with it -- that it's more likely to be a star that can do this who can weather the storm, someone who is so valuable to his team that these, you know...

NEVILLE: That everybody will look the other way. They won't...

BUZINSKI: Well, because they have to. I mean, if someone pitched -- the equivalent of Pedro Martinez came out as gay, that team would not cut him. He's just too good.

Now someone on the margins...

NEVILLE: But you're not saying that, though, you're just saying hypothetically speaking.

BUZINSKI: I said someone of the caliber of a Pedro Martinez, yes.

So, I mean, I think that's the issue. It's kind of who it is and how they do it.

And it's nice to hear Billy be very supportive on this. I mean, that's one thing I haven't heard from him in the last year, is sort of this more nuanced thing that, you know, he'd be right there giving this person support, because whoever comes out is going to need a lot of it. BEAN: Absolutely.

Jim, I've spoken, you know, to a lot of ex-players. And the idea is that, you know, for someone to be there is vital. But if the dynamic of the people around that player -- and what you said is exactly true, the player will have to think long and hard. And this is basically a life-changing decision. And most athletes, I think, are so consumed with their sports, you know, their career, the ability to be successful...

NEVILLE: Well, it's their livelihood.

BEAN: It's their livelihood. Exactly.

NEVILLE: Billy, listen, I've got to get Latoya (ph) in here but, you know, maybe you can come back and answer this another time. But I would love to know what you had to go through to keep that a secret for 10 years. I mean, you...

BEAN: It wasn't easy.

NEVILLE: You had to have kind of like fake girlfriends and things, because if you...

BEAN: I was married, Arthel, for a portion of that time. And then afterwards, you know, like I said I was in the big leagues at a very, very young age. I grew up in Los Angeles where every player on the team when I was with the L.A. Dodgers was married. A lot of pressure to get married and be a part of that big engine of professional sports.

It's a very sexy environment. And the sexuality and the prowess and the strength and the look of athletes, it's all rolled into one. And it's a big...

NEVILLE: And you felt like you had to get married in order to fit in?

BEAN: Absolutely. I mean, I grew up around sports, and having a beautiful woman on your side after a game-winning home run is like having a beer. You know, it's part of American folklore.

NEVILLE: Hang on, hang on. Oh boy, I want to talk to you about a lot of stuff.

Got to let Latoya (ph) in here.

LATOYA: I don't think anyone should feel they have to hide their sexuality, because it's basically living a lie. Like he got married -- he felt he had to get married to fit in. I don't think that's fair. I don't think anyone should have to hide their sexuality, because that's a part of who you are.

And it's not a huge part of who you are, because I don't feel I have to tell people I'm heterosexual. So I think it should be your choice, and I don't think you have to hide it. NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Listen, Billy Bean, thank you so much for coming here and sharing some really personal stories. Really appreciate that..

BEAN: My pleasure.

NEVILLE: Jim Buzinski, thank you, as well...

BUZINSKI: Thank you Arthel.

NEVILLE: ... for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE.

We're going to take a break, and then I have some special guests I want to you meet. So stay right where you are.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody.

We have a very special group of people in our audience today. They are from the KIPP Academy, a unique charter school with an inspiring philosophy for educating at-risk middle school students.

With the group is KIPP Academy cofounder and superintendent of its New York school, David Levin (ph).

And I want to say congratulations to you sir.

DAVID LEVIN, KIPP ACADEMY COFOUNDER: Thank you.

NEVILLE: All right.

And listen, I want to get to one of your students here.

Who do we have here? Britany (ph).

Britany (ph), what does the school mean to you, and how has it changed your life?

BRITANY: It means a lot to me. When I first came in I was very shy and timid and didn't speak a lot. But with the help of the teachers I came out of my shell and KIPP has got me into an excellent school, Southfield Academy (ph).

And KIPP is based on three Ds, desire, dedication and discipline. And that's why we're successful, because we have those three morals.

NEVILLE: Well good for you. I mean, you guys...

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Let me get the Web site in there.

LEVIN: For more information you can go to www.kippny.org, or www.kipp.org.

NEVILLE: KIPP.

Bye-bye everybody. TALKBACK LIVE again tomorrow. Arthel Neville; see you tomorrow. Thank you.

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