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American Morning

Interview with Rod Nordland

Aired August 12, 2002 - 07:32   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: There are some new reports about the movements of Osama bin Laden in the months just after September 11. "Newsweek" magazine says two sources, including a former Taliban official, say the al Qaeda leader escaped on horseback under fire last winter. The magazine suggests an Afghan foot patrol was hot on the trail of bin Laden, so close the pursuers "could literally smell blood."
In Rome to discuss the "Newsweek" investigation, Rod Nordland, the magazine's correspondent at large.

Thanks for joining us, Rod. Good to see you.

ROD NORDLAND, "NEWSWEEK," ROME: My pleasure, Paula.

ZAHN: So, Rod, what evidence does your magazine have that Osama bin Laden is still alive?

NORDLAND: Well, proving that he's not dead is kind of trying to prove a negative and it's difficult. The strongest evidence hitherto has been kind of the lack of reaction among his followers, the lack of intelligence pickup of chatter and so forth. And that's led most authorities to conclude that he is still alive.

The only direct evidence that we've really come across, though, are these two witnesses that we've spoke to in the last few months preparing this report who, one of whom actually guided Osama bin Laden, or claims to have guided him, and the other -- when he escaped from Tora Bora in December -- and the other who met him in Shah-e Kot (ph) in Afghanistan in February.

And both these reports, you know, we believe are credible. And what they don't tell us, of course, is where he is now. But the likelihood is that he's alive.

ZAHN: Why do you believe these sightings are credible?

NORDLAND: Well, we believe these people. We sought out -- the Taliban official, for instance, we sought him out. We heard about him through sources and found him. And one of our reporters, an Afghan, spoke to him frankly in a kind of clandestine way. He didn't realize he was talking to a journalist. And that gave it quite a bit of credibility. He's since gone into hiding, this person. He works as a professional guide and he makes his living guiding al Qaeda followers out of Afghanistan into Pakistan.

ZAHN: And I guess what is remarkable about what you learned is the number of times that warlords who were supposed to be partial to the United States were, in fact, the guys that turned on a dime.

NORDLAND: In some cases, and probably more than on a dime. Probably quite a lot of money changed hands and they were willing to do that. A lot is made of the $25 million or more in rewards that we've offered for Osama bin Laden. But those rewards don't mean much in these small villages in Pakistan and Afghanistan. A few hundred dollars or a few thousand dollars from fleeing al Qaeda is much more direct and something they can understand and also they don't have to worry about being killed for having helped turn in this fugitive.

ZAHN: In this piece you also report that al Qaeda forces have mutated into a form that many believe is far more dangerous than the form that existed pre-September 11. We're going to put up on the screen something that one counter-terrorism expert told you. "The threat is a lot greater than it was in December. That is to say, the worst is ahead of us, not behind us."

Tell us what your understanding is...

NORDLAND: Yes, I think what that -- sure, I think what that official meant was that the threat's much greater than it was in December. In December, Osama bin Laden and his top cadre and most of his followers were holed up in Tora Bora and a few other places and they were surrounded and besieged and being bombed. And after they escaped, they're like viruses that have gotten into the wild, you know? They could be anywhere in the world.

Most likely Osama bin Laden himself is still in that border region in Pakistan in the tribal areas. But a lot of his other followers have gone much further afield and they're ready and willing to carry out more operations. And in a way, they're more dangerous. They have nothing to lose now.

ZAHN: The other thing that is riveting about your story is the explanation some of the local people gave you as to why American forces weren't able to either get in front of Osama bin Laden or find him altogether. Explain to us how they say that the Americans had the wrong targets completely.

NORDLAND: Yes, it's kind of a question of too little too late. We don't have enough forces there. We have only 10,000 men in Afghanistan and the Soviets had half a million at one point. We're trying to find somebody who is prepared and knows how to hide in that terrain and was ready and probably had a plan for how to hide. It's a pretty difficult task any way you look at it.

And then we're dealing with allies whose loyalties are uncertain and with people who know the terrain much better than we do. We need to put much greater forces at the job before we're going to succeed.

ZAHN: Another thing these guys suggested to you, though, isn't it true that they only bombed one of the exit areas leading to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and not the other one?

NORDLAND: That's true. We seem to have had very bad intelligence at that point and maybe we weren't listening to our Afghan allies well enough. But they've been -- it's been a risky business listening to them. In some cases they've had us bomb, in one case, famously, a wedding party of some of their rivals on the excuse that they were al Qaeda.

So it's been a difficult job. You know, we didn't -- it's -- we were new to that region. American forces didn't have the intelligence assets in place and the experience and everything else they needed. And they were taken for a ride. And in many cases we arrived at a place where we believed Osama bin Laden was after he had gone, in some cases, you know, only a few days after he had gone, but he was gone, nonetheless.

ZAHN: Well, the piece "How Al Qaeda Slipped Away" is fascinating.

Rod Nordland, thank you for sharing some of it with us this morning. Appreciate your time.

NORDLAND: OK, my pleasure.

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