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CNN Talkback Live
Will Baseball Players Strike?; What Should Catholic Church Do With Priests Who Sexually Abuse Children?
Aired August 12, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Keep that breeze coming. Keep that breeze coming.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I told you we were going to stay late after school.
HARRIS: We can get used to that.
KAGAN: Yes, we can get used to a little bit of love. Hello, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Daryn Kagan.
HARRIS: And I'm Leon Harris. We're going to be the hosts for the next three days here. Arthel Neville is on assignment with "AMERICAN MORNING" for the week.
KAGAN: And we are starting out with a contentious issue, just the kind we like here at TALKBACK LIVE: baseball. Negotiations, they are in full swing. A strike deadline could be set any time. In fact, if there's a news conference, we'll go to that live in the middle of the hour. We're going to find out if the players are going to set a strike date and whether a strike could cost baseball more than it can afford to lose.
HARRIS: That's right. And then stay tuned. We've got another debate coming up as well. All right, we are going to find out why some priests are calling zero tolerance for abusers nothing more than shock rhetoric.
KAGAN: But first, we go into the strike zone. The issues seem to be money, money and then more money. That's what you are talking about. Rich teams getting even richer, wealthy, and less wealthy players -- somehow the money not getting spread out evenly. Our Josie Karp is on the scene in Chicago where the executive board of the baseball players' union is meeting. Josie, we have been standing by all day waiting to hear if there's a specific date set for this strike. Hello.
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello. I wish I could tell you, but we just got word from inside that meeting that it will be at least another hour, maybe more, before they do emerge, the union representatives for each team, and let us know whether they have indeed set a strike date. Again, all indications have been over the past couple of days that that's the most likely scenario and that a strike date will be set sometime at the end of this month or at the beginning of next month -- Daryn. KAGAN: All right. We're going to be standing by, and feel free to jump in on this conversation as it goes on. Josie Karp standing by at the actual talks, the where the players are meeting in Chicago.
HARRIS: All right. Let's get to our guests who are with us this afternoon. With us this afternoon is sports radio talk show host Steak Shapiro and frequent guest as well...
KAGAN: He's right here with us.
HARRIS: ... on the network. You see him back here. His show is "Mayhem in The AM" on Atlanta's WQSI, 790 the Zone here in Atlanta. And also with us is sports agent Drew Rosenhaus. Drew has been representing pro athletes for more than 10 years now. His flamboyant style landed him on the cover of "Sports Illustrated." And he's also got an autobiography out. It's titled "A Shark Never Sleeps."
KAGAN: Ooh, when sharks attack. This is a guy who knows how to get a lot of money out of the owners.
HARRIS: OK. Well, let's see -- Drew, what do you think? Is that going to happen this time? Is the strike going to be averted or what?
DREW ROSENHAUS, SPORTS AGENT: I think they're going to avert a strike because everybody loses here at this point. The league, first of all, Major League Baseball can't afford a strike. The players, they're are making a ton of money. The owners, they don't want to kill off the sport. Popularity is down. I don't see a strike happening.
I think the two sides will get together, iron it out, and most importantly, get Major League Baseball back on track. I think it's less about a strike and more about the two sides coming together to get this thing to survive because it's in big trouble right now.
KAGAN: Well, Steak what about you? In your job, in sports talk radio, you get to hear from all sides. You hear from players, you hear from owners and you hear from the fans. And that's who we really care about.
STEAK SHAPIRO, SPORTS RADIO SHOW HOST: Yes. I mean, the fans are so disillusioned. You know, if they come out of today at Chicago and they set a strike date, I mean, it's not as dangerous as actually striking, but the message it sends to the fans, especially with the pennant races going on, why should I keep going to the ballpark, why should I support these guys when there's a good chance you won't have a World Series and a playoffs which happened once before. In light of...
ROSENHAUS: I don't have a problem though with them setting a strike date. I think that could be good. I'm not in favor of a strike. But maybe a strike date...
KAGAN: But every time they set a strike date in the past...
SHAPIRO: All right. Settle down, Drew.
KAGAN: ... there's always been a strike.
ROSENHAUS: Hopefully, what it will do, guys, is it will force everyone to come together.
SHAPIRO: OK. Here's the fact. Nobody even wants to hear the players...
ROSENHAUS: We need the two sides to come together right now because the bottom line is...
SHAPIRO: Nobody wants to hear players even mention the notion of a strike.
ROSENHAUS: Hey, but something has to change, Steak. The bottom line is we have got to be able to get the two sides to sit down and work out the issues of revenue sharing and drug testing and all the ailments that are bothering the teams, the salary cap or the luxury tax.
KAGAN: Drew, hang on a second here. Steak, help me...
SHAPIRO: Leon, are you going to put a muzzle on Drew today or what.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Drew makes a point that there's no big deal about setting a strike date. But, Steak, help me with the history here. In the past, every other time they have set a strike date, they actually have gone out on strike.
SHAPIRO: Yes, it's a negotiating tool. And the fact is the fans don't want to even hear of the possibility. I don't think they are going to strike either. But the fact is the owners have put their foot in the sand, so to speak, and say, "look, we're going to have to make changes. Either you agree to it, you agree to do something with the salaries, you agree to do something in terms of revenue sharing, or the fact is we won't play baseball." And the fact is...
ROSENHAUS: But that's not how you negotiate, Steak. The owners are not in a position just to say either you agree or this is it. This is a game about the players and the owners, where there has to be a mutual understanding. Steak, it's not good...
SHAPIRO: There is mutual understanding. The fact is though the players union...
(CROSSTALK)
ROSENHAUS: What has to happen is all sides have to work it out right now.
HARRIS: All right. Drew, we've got to let Steak get his point across. Let him finish his point at least, all right? SHAPIRO: The players' union is the most inflexible group. It's one of the strongest unions. They have never given an inch. We are not talking about the years of slave labor. We're talking about guys with an average salary of a couple million dollars. We are talking about guys that don't want real drug testing. They come up with this cockamamie drug testing for steroids, which isn't even...
ROSENHAUS: And by the way, they are not complaining though. I mean, they are not the ones who...
SHAPIRO: And the fact is that once and for all, there needs to be a change in the game.
ROSENHAUS: ... are happy with the system. They just don't want to take a step back. Let's make this clear. The players aren't looking to strike...
SHAPIRO: You know, I can yell just as loud as Drew Rosenhaus.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Hang on just a second...
ROSENHAUS: The bottom line is they are being put in a position where they feel like they have to strike.
KAGAN: Are you hearing the same thing I am...
HARRIS: Drew, you're going to have to hang on a second. You're going to have to hang on a second. At least let's get a thought finished here first and then we'll come back. All right, go ahead.
SHAPIRO: Look, the fact is that nobody wants to hear the owners, nobody wants to hear the players' side. I'm telling you what people care about in sports radio and fans, everybody else, they don't even want to hear the word strike. Football is the most popular sport in America right now.
ROSENHAUS: Well, what do you want to hear, death? Do you want to hear the death penalty? Do you want there to be baseball?
SHAPIRO: Football is going to be August 26, the football season starts. And the fact is once the football season starts, if these guys are going to go on strike, they are going to wave good-bye and baseball is never going to be the same.
KAGAN: OK. I need you guys -- I need you guys to be gentlemen for a second. I'm going to stand up for the ladies, and our Josie Karp is trying to get in here in Chicago. So, Josie, you go girl. Come on, let's show these guys.
KARP: Daryn, thank you so much. I just want to interject one thing. I hear what Drew is saying, and maybe in years gone by, it would be the case that a strike date would get everybody back to the table. But in reality, the owners and the players have been negotiating in earnest for at least the last month, and that's very different from how these scenarios have unfolded in years gone by. So, I don't think that they're as far apart as they have been and that's one reason that there is a chance, however small it is, that maybe history doesn't repeat itself this time and they set the strike date and can work things out in the next two or three weeks.
HARRIS: Well, Josie, let me ask you...
ROSENHAUS: Let me tell you about professional sports. Deadlines create deals. What they are trying to do is create a deadline now, a real deadline with this strike date to hopefully get things done, whereby I don't think the problem is only players and the owners. I think it's the owners also amongst themselves. George Steinbrenner, he doesn't want revenue sharing. Bud Selig, he wants the smaller teams to be able to compete with teams like the New York Yankees, so they want to have a large-scale revenue sharing like we have in the NFL.
So it's not just the players and the owners. I think the owners have to get their act together first and then try and get a deal done with the players.
HARRIS: OK, guys, hang on for a second. We have got someone here in the audience who wants to weigh in as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Dennis from California.
DENNIS: Yes, that's correct. My feeling is this, that the baseball season only has about six weeks left. And I think it wouldn't make any sense for the ballplayers to go on strike now. If they want to go on strike, which I don't think they should at all, is to, you know, start at the beginning of next year. Plus, today is August 12, which is my birthday. And the last strike they went on was August 12. I was so upset at the time, I didn't watch baseball for months back then when that happened. So I really don't think it makes any sense at all, especially again with the attendance being down too, as was mentioned earlier.
KAGAN: Happy birthday.
HARRIS: Well, Steak -- I want to Steak about that. I mean, you're the one that talks the most to the fans. Do you think that most people will agree with the quotes that you're hearing? Is that what they're saying too?
SHAPIRO: It makes sense in terms of leverage. The players' way of using leverage is to threaten, we won't have playoffs, we won't have World Series, we won't have the revenue from television for the postseason. That's why they are going to do it now. Otherwise, if they finish the season, the owners are going to lock them out before they come back next year.
But the bottom line is this: Nobody wants the details. Nobody wants to hear about guys with an average salary of $2 million going on strike. Nobody wants to hear about billionaire owners who can't get along. The fact is this is one time where if baseball strikes, people are not coming back. HARRIS: Yes, but the teams that are already losing money and the ones who are crying for it right now, this helps them if they go out on strike and they shut things down for a little...
ROSENHAUS: I don't think it helps at all to have a strike, Leon. The bottom line is the strike is bad for everybody. The teams that are losing money, the answer is not shutting it down and having the strike. The answer is distributing the money more equally, finding ownership groups and people in the front office that can run teams effectively. There's no excuse to lose money.
Hey, the NFL is doing great. The NBA is doing great. The popularity is there for baseball. They need to create the same structure, a luxury tax, a salary cap, revenue sharing. These are not novel ideas. These are things that are done in the other sports, but the two sides can't get together and they are killing their industry. And it's got to stop.
KAGAN: Time and time again, you hear why can't it be like the NFL. Look how the NFL has it act together. What is the answer to that? Drew, you deal with the NFL and Steak, you cover it.
SHAPIRO: Well, the players' union is much stronger in baseball. And they have never given an inch. You know, ever since Marvin Miller, they get more and more and more. And every time you ask the players to compromise, they don't believe in doing it. You know, in the NFL and the NBA, they share in the profits and the losses in a sense. The NBA's salary, the average salary just went down for the first time ever potentially because the TV deal went down. Baseball players are spoiled.
ROSENHAUS: Well, I can tell you right now that they're going to have to compromise.
SHAPIRO: Baseball players are spoiled and they are not going to compromise. And they haven't.
ROSENHAUS: The bottom line is they will compromise. The players do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. They are going to compromise. They don't want to kill off the sport...
SHAPIRO: Well, they have in the past, Drew. They have in the past.
ROSENHAUS: They will and they have made concessions. They've just agreed to steroid testing. They have made progress.
SHAPIRO: That steroid testing is a joke. That steroid testing is a joke.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Let's talk about that after a break.
HARRIS: Hang on a second, because...
ROSENHAUS: The players right now, they want revenue sharing. They want the teams to spread it out...
KAGAN: Drew, we need a concession from you to kind of hold it until after the break.
HARRIS: Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. We can't afford to do that here. We've got to get a break in.
KAGAN: We need some ads.
HARRIS: We're going to take a break right now. But coming up, we'll talk some more about where all the money comes from that these people are arguing about. And you know where it does come from? You, the fans with deep pockets. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right. We are back on TALKBACK LIVE. Leon Harris and Daryn Kagan here doing the tag team. And rather appropriate that we are doing a tag team and talking sports this afternoon.
Talking about the baseball strike. Drew Rosenhaus is with us and so is Steak Shapiro. We're going to get right back into the debate right now. Let me ask you both if you think that it's possible -- we have been talking so far about the money. And that's the big issue, the big thing that separating the players and the owners right now. But there's other issues as well that are on the table. How about contraction? Can they afford to leave this negotiating deal here, this round of negotiations without coming to an agreement on that?
ROSENHAUS: I'm just not in favor of contraction, guys. I think contraction is terrible for sports to pull a franchise away from a city that is embraced. Let's take the Minnesota Twins, for example. They were talking about contracting the Twins, and yet the Twins are one of the better teams. They have some dynamite players, including Torii Hunter, that have come out of the scene. I don't think that's the answer. The answer is (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
SHAPIRO: Embraced it? How has Montreal embraced the Expos.? You call that embracing, 7,000 fans a night?
ROSENHAUS: Well, I'll tell you what. The Expos have had some great years though and they have had good fan support.
SHAPIRO: Yes, when was that, 1986?
ROSENHAUS: They have had fan support that has worked.
KAGAN: You guys bring up -- you bring up the Twins. We actually have someone on the phone with us from Minnesota. Diana (ph), go ahead.
CALLER: Yes?
KAGAN: Yes, go ahead and make your point. CALLER: I just wanted to say that the owners and players have to realize that the fans who fill the stadiums every night are your working class, they work for 10 to $15 an hour. And it's hard for to us feel sorry for people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
(APPLAUSE)
ROSENHAUS: Well, you know, the players aren't asking you to feel sorry for them. This isn't about feeling sorry for the players. Certainly, this is about getting a system and structure that works. There's no question that salaries are high for the superstars. I like the e-mail that came up from Mike in Ohio that said, hey, only a few players are making the really big bucks and there's a lot of guys that are middle-class players...
SHAPIRO: Middle class players?
(CROSSTALK)
Drew, you got a second baseman that's hitting .240 making almost $1.8 million. What middle class players are you talking about? Come on.
ROSENHAUS: The bottom line is that there are players that are making a huge amount of money and there are others who aren't. And we've got to spread that out.
SHAPIRO: None of the fans are interested in the system, the system of what the economics is for the owner and the players. The fact is just talk about the fans. This is the one story that nobody even wants to have to cover because there's no good guy or bad guy. Everything about it is distasteful, especially as you get closer to 9/11, to hear multi-millionaires arguing over...
ROSENHAUS: Well, what do you want to have? Do you want to have a system that works or not?
SHAPIRO: I don't know Drew. Do you want to win...
ROSENHAUS: I mean, you're just concerned about the fans. You have got to create a system...
SHAPIRO: Drew, Drew...
ROSENHAUS: You've got to be in the real world, a system that...
KAGAN: Drew, hold on a second, Drew. Let Steak get his point out.
SHAPIRO: Drew, you can get your award for most obnoxious guest day in and day out. So, please pipe down for a second.
ROSENHAUS: Thanks, but you can get the award for most ignorant.
SHAPIRO: There you go, Drew. There you go. ROSENHAUS: You can the reward for being ignorant.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Hang on, Drew. We would like to have a civil discussion here. We have got to get both sides in it, and we can't do it if one person is yelling the entire time. All right, finish your point.
SHAPIRO: Look, consider the source. You're talking about a notorious sports agent, Drew Rosenhaus...
ROSENHAUS: Steak, how about you? I mean, you're a sports talk host. Big deal.
SHAPIRO: I'm talking to fans every day. And here's the fact: People don't want to hear this story about, you know, players meeting and such. This is a story that is on every level is wrong. And whether it's contracting teams, whether it's changing revenue sharing, whether it's any of this stuff, the fact is players -- the fans just want to have them all go in a room and come out and say we are having the playoffs and we're having the World Series and stop telling us about it.
HARRIS: Drew, hang on a second. Drew, hold that thought. Hold it, Drew.
ROSENHAUS: Let's get a solution going here.
HARRIS: I want to jump in because I think this is a good point to bring in one other element of the money that we haven't really talked about much at all, and it's whether or not the owners and the players get it when they all know that the money, eventually, comes from the fans. And right now, fans can't afford to go -- many fans, almost no one who doesn't have some sort of corporate hook-up can't even go to most of these games and afford these kind of tickets.
And what they are doing right now is going to end up making that situation spiral even more out of control. Does either side even -- do they show any awareness of that? Do they even care about that?
ROSENHAUS: Yes, sure. Hey, listen, there's no question that you want to make it fan friendly. If people can't afford to, you have got to have a diversity in ticket prices for people that don't have the money to pay for the most expensive seats, and then you have got corporate sponsors who can.
There are ways to do it. No one is dogging the fans here. The fans are the life blood. The key is, though, we have got to create a situation where the fans have a sport to go to with the system that works and that's what I want to focus on. We must be able to create a scenario where the owners can come together, No. 1, and agree to a revenue sharing plan; no. 2, a luxury tax.
And the players, they are not asking for more. They just want to keep the sport healthy and they don't want to lose what they have. You can't blame that from them. KAGAN: OK, Drew, hang on a second. We have actually some e-mail coming in talking about the fans. Let's put that e-mail up and see what that fan...
HARRIS: Do we have that up there?
KAGAN: ... has to say. This is from Danny: "Fans of all professional sports should go on strike until prices decline to a level that people of modest income can afford?" Who agrees with Danny here in the audience?
(APPLAUSE)
HARRIS: And maybe that's the most important strike that should happen. If there is a strike date set, should there be a strike date set for fans?
KAGAN: Well, let's look at that Gallup Poll. There's that new Gallup Poll talking about if indeed there was a strike, they went and they asked would you come back, do you care, and would you just stay away? Here it is. Here it is.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSENHAUS: I mean, a strike would be devastating. And the reality is that I sympathize with the fans, with ticket prices. It is a business. ..
SHAPIRO: Yes, it's coming across real clearly.
ROSENHAUS: ... where we have to find a way whereby everybody is able to enjoy the sport. The players can make a decent living. The owners can make money. And the fans can afford to.
KAGAN: All right, Drew. Drew, cut it. Let's get back to him.
SHAPIRO: The fact is minor league baseball has never been more popular for a number of reasons. A: it's built in a lot of these smaller towns and smaller cities where they don't have the disillusionment with professional sports. Also, you look at a player and you have some ability to relate to them on a one-on-one level and relate to them as A: the kid is still in the minors. There's still a struggle there. Fans cannot relate at any level to the modern day baseball player. You know, Chipper Jones the other day comes out in the Atlanta paper. Chipper Jones...
ROSENHAUS: Steak, are you telling me you're trying to draw a comparison to minor league baseball?
SHAPIRO: Drew, can you pipe down for one second? Here's the fact...
ROSENHAUS: Minor league baseball is popular? What are you talking about?
SHAPIRO: Minor league baseball has had its biggest numbers of attendance they have ever had.
ROSENHAUS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Give me a break.
SHAPIRO: Chipper Jones...
ROSENHAUS: You want to have a system like the minor leagues? No one would go.
SHAPIRO: Chipper Jones goes in the Atlanta paper...
ROSENHAUS: I guess you're also -- you like the XFL, I'm assuming, and the WNBA. Get real.
SHAPIRO: Do you have a mute button on Drew Rosenhaus?
HARRIS: I don't know. We may have to get one. Hang on a second now.
KAGAN: Finish your point about Chipper Jones.
SHAPIRO: Chipper Jones comes out in the Atlanta papers just after the All-Star break. The article headline is "Not So Chipper," and he tells everybody...
KAGAN: Whining.
SHAPIRO: ... "if I knew now what I knew when I was 8 years old, I would never want to be a modern ball player. I have to sit in my hotel room watching movies and playing video games before I'm allowed out in my lobby." This is a guy who is making $8, $10 million a year who thinks he's going to...
KAGAN: You're going to make me cry, Steak.
SHAPIRO: ... be mobbed staying at the Four Seasons hotel, having to watch movies. Most guys are working 50, 60 hours a week trying to support their family, and we are going to listen to Chipper Jones -- you talk about losing touch -- telling us how rough it is that he can't leave the Ritz-Carlton to go his bus because he gets mobbed by fans. That's the kind of talk is why people are turned off on baseball.
ROSENHAUS: There is also, guys -- there are also players out there who play hurt, who fight their injuries, who are crippled for the rest of their life...
SHAPIRO: Yes, who is crippled for the rest of their life, Drew?
ROSENHAUS: ... because they love the sport.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: What baseball player is crippled? What baseball player is crippled for the rest of his life?
ROSENHAUS: I'm a player -- I'm a player-agent. I represent guys who can barely walk...
SHAPIRO: Name me one. Name one ballplayer who is crippled for the rest of his life?
ROSENHAUS: ... because they played the game, one.
(CROSSTALK)
Hang on both of you. While you guys calm down...
ROSENHAUS: Steak, you don't have a clue.
HARRIS: Calm down. Calm down.
SHAPIRO: No, I don't, Drew.
HARRIS: You got the St. John's wart (ph). Calm down.
ROSENHAUS: You are sitting behind a microphone talking on the radio. You don't think these guys go out and earn their money.
SHAPIRO: This is one of the great dirtbags in the history of being a sports agent, and I got to sit here and listen to him?
ROSENHAUS: You couldn't make it, so you talk on the radio.
(CROSSTALK)
They should call you Steak-eater. That's what you are.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Calm down for a quick second here. Let's get the chamomile tea out here for a second for these two guys. Calm down. Let's bring in J.B. J.B., are you there? Is J.B. there?
KAGAN: Let's bring Josie in from Chicago.
HARRIS: Josie.
KARP: Yes. I have a couple things to say. Let me just go back up, back way up to the beginning of the conversation just for a factual reference point. Right now, contraction is not part of these collective bargaining talks. There's an arbitrator who is trying to decide whether or not the owners have the right to go ahead and say, hey, we're going to take away two teams. And there's really a feeling that that arbitrator doesn't want to interfere with any progress that is being made, so he's holding off on making that decision.
And the other thing, you talk about Chipper Jones. A couple of months ago, Barry Bonds came out, and he's a huge face in this game right now, probably the person who is most recognizable in baseball. And his opinion, he came out and said, "hey, if we go on strike, the fans will come back. They always come back." So I think as much as fans can threaten that they won't come back, everything happened in 1994, attendance went down 30 percent right afterward. But then you had guys like Cal Ripken, you had Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire, and eventually the fans did come back.
This time, if you are baseball, you really have to wonder who is going to be Cal Ripken, who is going to be Mark McGwire. Maybe those guys aren't around any more.
SHAPIRO: That's a good point.
KAGAN: Let's go to our audience here and get a chance -- Stephen (ph) from New York. Yankee or Met fan?
STEPHEN (ph): I'm a Met fan.
KAGAN: All right.
STEPHEN: And they're talking about revenue sharing. I'm not a fan of George Steinbrenner by any means, but, I mean, why should he have to share the money that he's taking in with the Yankees and his YES Network and give them to the Pittsburgh Pirates or the Tampa Bay Devil Rays when they are not the ones that are getting the fans and have their own television network. If they want to get the money, they should get the fans. And they just don't have it.
ROSENHAUS: Well, you know, here's the answer to that. I understand what you are saying, and Steinbrenner has got a point that his marketing department and his people are doing good things. But Steinbrenner has no choice but to share. Otherwise, he's not going to have teams to play against. His victories for the Yankees will be meaningless if he's playing against clubs that aren't able to compete economically. So he has got to share if he wants it to be good for the overall benefit of the game.
But I understand what you are saying, because Steinbrenner is out there. He has his own network. He is doing a lot of great things. But you also have to take care of the Pittsburgh Pirates if you want them to be a part of Major League Baseball and to be able to compete. And we need competition, and we need parity. You have got it in the NFL. You've got in the NBA in many respects, with the exception of the Lakers. But most teams can compete in both those sports.
HARRIS: All right. We got to go. Real quick, Steak, one final note?
SHAPIRO: One final -- is that it? Are we done?
HARRIS: That's it. Speak now or forever hold your peace.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: I don't think they are going to strike. And I think hopefully they won't set a strike date today either. But again, with 9/11 looming, the last thing these baseball players are going to do is put us in a situation where we have to feel sorry for them. There will not be a strike. They will play baseball one way or another.
HARRIS: All right. We'll see if you are right about that. Steak Shapiro, Drew Rosenhaus, and Josie Karp as well, thanks all of you for joining us. We sure do appreciate it. We appreciate the insights.
We'll take a break right now for the news. And when we come back, a window into confessionals. That's right. Will Catholics confess if everyone is watching? Stay tuned.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Leon Harris here with my partner, Daryn Kagan. Now, still reeling from the priest sex abuse scandal, the Catholic Diocese of San Jose is taking what some might consider to be an outrageous step to keep things out in the open. Literally.
Let's watch this report now from affiliate station KRON in San Francisco.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YSABEL DURON, KRON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In order to restore a sense of security and safety, the Diocese of San Jose is changing the way people go to concession. Bishop Patrick McGrath has ordered all 52 Catholic parishes in the diocese to install windows in confessionals to reduce the chances of sexual misconduct occurring. St. Thomas of Canterbury Church has already done it, and the basilica itself no longer takes confession behind a closed door.
FATHER JOSE RUBIO, 5 WOUNDS CATHOLIC CHURCH: And then as a temporary adaptation, they put this curtain, and the priest sits on this side of the curtain, the penitent kneels there and then that door is left open, so that anybody walking by can see.
DURON: Catholics leaving the basilica question the policy's impact, but they appreciate the effort.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's good to see that, you know, the church is listening and is able to make changes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would feel comfortable, because I have been to face-to-face confession, which is, you know...
DURON (on camera): So it's not disturbing to see this change?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have it out in the public, even as they are not hearing it, they are still seeing you, I don't know.
DURON (voice-over): Father Jose Rubio recently replaced another priest at 5 Wounds Portuguese Church, who faced sexual abuse allegations, causing division in that parish. Until 5 Wounds gets its glass windows, confessions are made in the openness of the church pew, which is disturbing to some. But Father Rubio says in the long term, the change will protect both parishioners and priests. RUBIO: I don't think we were surprised. I think we are agreeing to it. We think it's a good idea given the circumstances. We think it's the right thing to do.
DURON: Ysabel Duron, KRON 4 News.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: So do you think this is a good idea? We want to hear from you on this. You can call us at 1-800-310-4CNN, or e-mail us, talkback@cnn.com.
And here to talk about see-through confessionals is Louis Giovino, communications director with the Catholic League, and Paul Steidler, he's spokesman for the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. That group is also known as SNAP.
Gentlemen, good afternoon, and thanks for joining us.
PAUL STEIDLER, SNAP: Good afternoon.
LOUIS GIOVINO, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Good to be here.
KAGAN: Let's go ahead and start with you, Paul. Do you think this is a good idea? Is this really going to help things?
STEIDLER: No, we feel it's a meaningless gesture. Most priest pedophiles will groom their victims for months or even years before making their first physical move on a child, and something like this is not going to prevent that from happening. It's not going to prevent determined pedophiles from getting alone with kids in settings outside the church, and in fact, it might even be counter-productive, because it gives a false sense of security out there.
What would be much more meaningful would be for the church to aggressively throw out all priests who commit these offenses and to support mandatory laws in all 50 states that there be reporting of any child abuse, suspicions or occurrences that occur. Right now, it's just a very voluntary system that is in place for the bishops and the diocese across the country.
KAGAN: We're going to get to that system in just a moment, but first let's bring Louis in and let's have you comment here on these open confessionals. How do you think this is actually going to help?
GIOVINO: Well, we can understand the intention of the bishop here, but we think that it's a little ill advised, because in a case of a confessional, there haven't been too many cases of where abuse has occurred in a confessional.
KAGAN: That was the first thing that I thought of. I mean, that's not where the problem is happening. They're kind of missing the point here.
GIOVINO: We want to be looking for the bishops to ensure that any time you go into a confessional, this priest is going to be trustworthy, and that any person who has any problems with abuse is going to be out and away from parishioners.
It seems to -- the problem here is that it seems to give the idea that all priests are dangerous and we need some type of safeguard against them, and that's unfortunate. I also think it's going to be a problem with people may not be wanting to go like this with the window. Confession is a very private affair, and something like this may turn people away.
HARRIS: That's a good point. Let's bring that point up with one of our audience members. Ed, you are Catholic, you said earlier, during the break?
ED: No, sir, I didn't say I was Catholic.
HARRIS: Oh, I'm sorry.
ED: ... they asked me if I had an opinion.
HARRIS: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: That's why we like you here, Ed.
HARRIS: I'm sorry, we didn't mean to try to convert you here, but I thought (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
ED: Couldn't happen. My reaction is that it is just a knee-jerk reaction to something that has been going on in the Catholic Church for far too long. And I wonder about the amount of money that is going to be spent in San Jose for something that is not going to do any good. It's not going to have any impact.
HARRIS: Look, in fact, can we get one of the ladies that we have in the audience here with us? Chris, can you get over there to Sue.
SUE: Yes, I come from England, and ages ago, 20 years ago, my son was at a British public school, which is in the States -- they are really private schools, and they had Catholic priests there, and it was well known that the Catholic priest was taking all little boys into the swimming pool to make them strip at night. And I know that child abuse has been going on in the Catholic Church for perhaps centuries, and I think probably they ought to look for Rome for guidance to see what, you know, what should be done worldwide. It's not just something that is happening in this country. It's worldwide.
HARRIS: Just a second...
STEIDLER: It is indeed a worldwide problem. The difficulty is, though, that the Vatican has been even less responsive to this problem than the bishops here in the United States. There are also epidemics of this abuse going on in Ireland, Poland and other countries that are heavily Catholic. GIOVINO: This is the bishops' prerogative. This is -- the bishops are supposed to be the ones in charge of their priests. The Vatican has general oversight. They have put it in a lot of safeguards at the beginning of this year to make sure that there aren't any more of these cover-ups. But this is -- you know, Bishop McGrath in San Jose, this is his prerogative to do what he's doing. It's up to them locally to take care of this, and we have seen it already with the June meeting of the American bishops that they are putting in -- putting in policies to take care of this.
STEIDLER: We'll see in the long run if they actually do put in these policies to take care of this. We have...
GIOVINO: They're already doing this.
STEIDLER: ... already found out that 10 diocese are violating the Dallas charter that was put forward back in June, and in the case of Bishop McGrath, if he wants to do something productive to stop child abuse in his diocese, what he ought to do is visit the parishes where a former priest who molested 25 kids served at. We had a press conference out there last week, talking about this issue...
KAGAN: I'm just going to jump in here for a second. We have just a minute left, and we have Eileen who wants to talk about this specific issues of the windows and the open confessionals.
EILEEN: I'm a Catholic, and face-to-face, as one gentlemen mentioned, has been around for at least 20 years that I know of. It's always been optional. You can go face-to-face, or you can go into the little confessional. My point is, I don't understand the windows, because these confessionals that I'm used to, you go in one door, the priest goes in the other. I don't see how the priest could get through the little window to abuse a child, so to me that's a safer place, behind those closed doors, than maybe out in the open.
The other thing is, I mean, some people like their privacy, as they were mentioning. Who wants to let everybody in the church know that you are going to confession?
HARRIS: You know, and not just that. We were talking about this before we got on the air, but we were wondering what would it feel like if you were in a confessional and you looked out and saw someone you knew, or if you were outside waiting for your turn and you saw someone you knew in there. That's the sort of privacy issue that you would think that the priests would be more sensitive too.
KAGAN: Or even worse, we were actually having a moment of humor, what if a fellow parishioner read lips?
HARRIS: Exactly. That could be really scary.
STEIDLER: The bottom line is, it is going to safeguard children, and that's the scary issue.
HARRIS: All right.
KAGAN: On a more serious and more important note.
Our discussion is going to continue. Other points still ahead. And we will want to hear from you at home. Right now, we take a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Still ahead on TALKBACK LIVE, a window on sinners. Some California Catholics will be saying their confession behind glass doors. Will the open view prevent sins, or just put sinners on display?
Also, the Catholic Church has a plan for dealing with abusive priests. But it doesn't involve kicking them out, is it enough? TALKBACK LIVE continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And we are back on TALKBACK LIVE here. Now, earlier this summer, America's Catholic bishops established a zero tolerance policy for sexually abusive priests. Over this past weekend, that policy was challenged somewhat by leaders of Roman Catholic religious orders meeting in Philadelphia. Now, we are talking here about orders like the Jesuits and the Franciscans. They operate somewhat autonomously from the dioceses. Well, rather than throw out sexually abusive members, it was suggested, rather, that abusive priests could be reassigned to positions that would keep them away from the public.
Now in a released statement from the group, the statement says that: "While sexual abuse of minors is abhorrent," quoting here, "We are also called to compassionate responses to any among us who has committed this abuse. He is still our brother in Christ. He remains a member of our family."
I was in Dallas covering that bishops conference and I did hear lots of comments like this, some that would seem to indicate some resistance to this new charter that was decided upon there, saying that the whole idea of Christianity is of forgiveness, and if the priest has actually committed an act like this, then is the priest also worthy of some forgiveness.
Now, I'm going to assume, Mr. Steidler, that you would not agree with that.
STEIDLER: We feel that they should be forgiven, but they should serve jail time, and there is a lot of prison ministry work that could be done with those pedophiles, yes.
KAGAN: What do you think when you hear this policy, when they are talking about, well, you know what, you know, we said in Dallas, maybe it doesn't really need to be like that. Maybe we just need to give them an office job where we can keep a close eye on them so they are not working with children?
STEIDLER: I think that that's meaningless. GIOVINO: Religious orders -- religious orders have a different set-up than diocese priests, the priests who are in a parish. They are considered more of a family. And just like in any family when you have a black sheep, you don't usually disown the person and throw them out onto the street. It's the same principle here.
KAGAN: But what happens to the baby sheep in that case? Who cares about the baby sheep -- forget about the black sheep. What about the children?
(CROSSTALK)
GIOVINO: The orders were very clear that anyone who is abusing children are not going to be publicly functioning as priests. But what they are looking for is to keep them still within the order, but just separated from any ministry. Probably off in a monastery somewhere. That's what they are looking at. They feel that the bishops were a little too rushed and weren't really looking so much for really due process.
I mean, we want to look for justice here. We are not looking for retribution, where -- and each case is different. What do you do with a 78-year-old priest who had some problem when he was 30? I mean, there's different cases. And they are not ruling out that you can be thrown out of the order. Some cases are much, much worse than others.
STEIDLER: When somebody touches a child, they forfeit their right to be in the priesthood. They commit such an evil, heinous act; they have no business being in ministry at all. And what they have come up, what the orders have come up with, this is very much like a trade association. When the 150 different or so orders that comprised the conference that met this past weekend, when they go back and do their own business, they are going to be able to do whatever they want. If they don't want to follow taking somebody out of ministry, they are not going to be compelled to do so. There is no enforcement...
GIOVINO: They will still have to answer -- they still have to answer to the bishops.
STEIDLER: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that comes into -- they should answer to the law.
GIOVINO: They're setting up review boards.
STEIDLER: They should answer to prosecutors and they should answer to parents.
GIOVINO: They are setting up review boards. The orders are setting up review boards, and...
(CROSSTALK)
STEIDLER: Review boards are troubling. We have had 10 review boards, which have violated the codes of the initial Dallas convention in terms of having too many church insiders, in terms of... GIOVINO: Well, we'll have to sort that out, won't we? We are already out of the box. It's just beginning. Do you want it immediate? Everything has to be absolutely cleared up immediately?
STEIDLER: Yes, I do. Yes, where children are involved, I want everything cleared up as quickly as possible.
GIOVINO: I think they're all clear that when it involves children...
STEIDLER: ... and I want every bishop fired. I want organizations like yours to name the bishops who should be fired and removed by the pope, and to work toward (ph) that.
GIOVINO: The bishops have set up a review board...
STEIDLER: I want your organization to say, Cardinal Law...
GIOVINO: Nobody's cheating.
STEIDLER: ... and the others should be removed from office.
HARRIS: If my memory serves me correctly, as I remember from my coverage there in Dallas, I remember that the pope's missive said leading into that conference that this sort of activity is rightfully to be considered a crime by the secular world and is not to have a place in the church. Let's go to someone who is in the church here. Trisha (ph), what were you saying a moment ago while you were nodding your head?
TRISHA: Well, first of all, I think it's very interesting that teachers are being held to a higher standard right now than priests, who are supposed to be the highest authority on this planet next to Jesus. I have been following this. I taught in a Catholic school for eight years. And I have found that my fellow parishioners and fellow Catholics in the area of New England have become less and less religious over the years, but they have become more spiritual. I mean, that we have lost faith in the Catholic religion. That is the institution.
Now, they are back-pedaling...
HARRIS: Did you ever see any evidence of any abuse? As a teacher.
TRISHA: As a teacher? I'm aware of not in the Catholic school that I worked at, but there is a lot of abuse in the public school that I work in. But they are trying put a band-aid on a severed artery right now. Plus -- they are back-pedaling. I mean, the pope gave them a mission. They didn't go through with that mission totally. Now they want to back-pedal some more. To top that off...
GIOVINO: Was that abuse in the public schools on the front page?
TRISHA: Yes. As a matter of fact, the public school of my town made the front page of "The New York Times." GIOVINO: "The New York Times" just did an article about how a lot of school districts -- they call it passing the garbage -- shuffle around a lot of teachers who are involved in abuse. So it's not -- don't make it sound like that -- in the public schools, everything is all safe and clean and it's only the church's problem.
KAGAN: No, but when someone like you refers to a priest who had some problem a few years ago...
GIOVINO: I didn't say he was abusing a child. I didn't say that.
KAGAN: When you say some problem...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: ... I think they find that completely offensive.
GIOVINO: If you abuse a child, you should be out. If you abuse a child, you should be out. They are not speaking only about that. They are talking about sexual misconduct. What happens if it was an adult? That's what they are looking at.
KAGAN: All right. On that, I'm being told we need to take a break. This conversation obviously has a lot more places to go, and we'll take care of that when we come back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Continuing our discussion about what is happening within the Catholic Church and how do you deal with the recent problems with sexual abuse. We have people here from all over the world. Let's start with Jim from Australia. Jim, come here, stand up.
JIM: As I was saying during the break, I'm not a Catholic, but I did have a Catholic education. I know of two friends who have been sexually abused by priests. They both attempted to commit suicide. One of them is now disabled because of that.
Priests do have a higher standard. Why should they be treated any differently to any other pedophile? They do deserve a fair trial, as does everyone else, but they should be locked up if they are found guilty. They should be defrocked. What they are doing is dehumanizing. It's disgusting. They do have that trust; they should respect that trust. And there should be leadership within the Catholic Church to actually weed this out when priests are alerting -- alerting what they are doing when they are at their own school before they become priests. So this is nothing. What they have done is too little, too late.
KAGAN: Jim from Australia.
STEIDLER: Jim, you are absolutely right. And the key issue here of why this is a systemic problem in the church is that two-thirds of bishops and cardinals have knowingly, knowingly assigned child molesters to additional duties where they are in front of children. And the troubling issue before us right now is that these same people who got the church and got the laity into this mess are now saying we think we can fix it, just give us a chance. We are kind of thinking that it would be a good idea to deal with this now.
And that's the real...
KAGAN: I have to challenge you on that number, Paul. You are saying two-thirds.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: That sounds -- 66 percent -- 66 percent of bishops or priests...
STEIDLER: Yes, indeed.
KAGAN: I don't even know if there's enough child abusers around to do that.
STEIDLER: Those are the numbers of "The Dallas Morning News."
GIOVINO: Yeah, I don't know about two-thirds.
HARRIS: I have actually heard that same report, same number, and I have seen that in "The Dallas Morning News" report. But let me ask you about that, one of that point, Paul, because one of the other reasons why the bishops were saying they were moving these people around, these priests around is because they were getting treatment and they were getting some help with dealing with this problem.
But the question that I have -- and I think many people still have -- is whether or not there's any proof that treatment has actually worked in these kinds of cases. You can almost give them the benefit of the doubt for saying, fine, let's be forgiving, let's be Christ-like, if you will, in this case and give a priest another chance to go ahead and redeem himself, but is there any proof at all out there, and you can jump on this as well, Mr. Giovino, is there any proof that therapy or any kind of treatment has actually worked in this case?
STEIDLER: When the welfare of children is involved, we should err on the side of saying that the priests are still going to be a danger. Defrock them immediately. Turn them over to civil authorities. And we also need a database of these offenders out there so that if a former priest goes to teach in a public school or be a janitor there, or moves into a community next to a daycare center, that the authorities and the employers can access this information and make sure they are not in proximity to children. You err on the side of protecting children in all cases.
KAGAN: Mr. Giovino, let's let you get in here. Louis.
GIOVINO: Of course we want to protect children and of course any priest who touches a child should be out. But again, let's have the same standard for everyone, then -- for school teachers, for rabbis, for Protestant ministers, for Muslim imams. It should be the same for everyone, not just some sort of retribution against Catholic priests because of this problem.
It's still 300 priests have been suspended since January. Of course, it shouldn't be one, and not all of them are guilty, but that's still out of 47,000. It's not as rampant as sometimes it may seem.
Now, again, if a priest abuses a child, he should be out. He definitely should be out. But these religious orders -- you can see how the religious orders are dealing with this. They have a different way of approaching their priesthood. It's not some kind of lock, stock, you know, every bishop gets a fax from Rome. It's -- some people want to make the Catholic Church out to be like it's a dictatorship and everyone follows the same orders. You can see, there's some disagreement among -- even among the bishops about how to deal with something like this.
HARRIS: But, Mr. Giovino, I mean, how can we say unequivocally whether or not it is rampant? We know the Catholic Church has been resisting any attempt for them to open the records or to reveal any information they may have on who is committing these acts.
GIOVINO: There are a lot of dioceses who are handing over their records.
STEIDLER: According to Father Andrew Greeley at the University of Chicago and one of the church's foremost sociologists, there has been 100,000 Catholic boys and girls who have been molested and abused by priests in the last 25 years. That is very rampant. That is very systemic.
GIOVINO: A hundred thousand? What is that based on?
STEIDLER: That's based on Father Greeley's work...
GIOVINO: That's just Father Greeley; 100,000?
STEIDLER: That's Father Greeley, and you know, there's an awful lot of...
GIOVINO: Did anybody else come up with that?
STEIDLER: Father Greeley is the foremost sociologist in the church, sir. I don't know who else you want to...
GIOVINO: No, I disagree with that. Philip Jenkins is -- not even a Catholic...
(CROSSTALK)
STEIDLER: ... meetings that we have in different cities across the country, and to hear from the hundreds and hundreds and scores of people whose lives have been brutalized and ruined by this. I mean...
GIOVINO: I'm not trying to minimize the problem. (CROSSTALK)
STEIDLER: Is there a certain figure that you'd be comfortable at?
GIOVINO: No. I don't want one. I don't even want one. I'm not minimizing the problem. And I definitely sympathize with these victims. These are horrendous crimes.
STEIDLER: You're trying to distort the problem by saying it goes on in public schools and other places.
GIOVINO: But it does.
STEIDLER: That's not the issue here.
GIOVINO: We should take care of...
KAGAN: We're going to wrap this...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Gentleman, gentlemen, we're going to wrap this on the point of agreement that no nobody even wants one child abused from here on out. Let's agree on that. And I want -- we have to take a break, but I want to thank Louis Giovino and Paul Steidler. Thanks for joining us. We'll get more reaction on this topic from you at home and also from the audience.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: OK, just a few seconds left. First, we want to go to the phones from Canada. Canada, go ahead.
CALLER: Hello. I'd like to know, why does the Catholic Church insist that its priests are somehow above the authority of civil law? Personally, I'd throw them in with a bunch of lifers. Thanks.
KAGAN: All right. Thank you.
HARRIS: Let's get a comment from the audience here.
KAGAN: This is Macy (ph) from California. Macy (ph).
MACY: I would like to tell everyone that we are having the Tuskegee airmen convention here, and they are America's...
KAGAN: We have 10 seconds, Macy (ph).
MACY: And we are at the Hyatt (ph) Hotel.
KAGAN: Macy (ph) sold us out. She had a great...
HARRIS: She sure did. Macy (ph) threw us a curve ball.
KAGAN: She had a great comment. HARRIS: That's what you call a head fake. Well, that's it for us now. Thanks, Macy (ph). All right. Say good night, Macy (ph). Good night, Macy (ph).
KAGAN: Say good night, Leon.
HARRIS: Good night. Leon Harris here.
KAGAN: And I'm Daryn Kagan. We'll be back again not only tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, we'll be back at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. Don't forget. More TALKBACK LIVE, and we'll see you tomorrow morning. John King is up next with "INSIDE POLITICS."
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