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CNN Talkback Live
Virginia Authorities Search for Missing Girl; Major League Baseball Sets Strike Date
Aired August 16, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(APPLAUSE)
CAROL COSTELLO, GUEST HOST: We have a fantastic audience this afternoon. Hello everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE Free-for-all Friday. I'm Carol Costello. Arthel Neville, as you know, is on assignment to "AMERICAN MORNING."
You already know the drill for the fastest moving hour on CNN. Lots of topics and guests who can juggle, and don't forget about our flash round, where we put our quick-witted guests on the spot with some surprise topics, so you stay tuned. You may want to get to a baseball game before August 30. The players have set a strike date. Whose side are you on.
And then, does Elvis really deserve a king-size week of coverage, or is Elvis-mania causing you to tune out?
Before we begin the free-for-all, though, another child has gone missing, this time in Bassett, Virginia. Authorities have issued an Amber Alert for 9-year-old Jennifer Renee Short, whose parents were found shot to death at their home. CNN correspondent Jeanne Meserve is in Bassett, Virginia with an update on the investigation.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, still no sign of Jennifer Short, the 9-year-old girl who was discovered missing yesterday morning. There have been tips received because of that Amber Alert you mentioned that because of the nationwide publicity, tips, we're told, have come in from all over the nation, but as yet none of them have panned out.
Meanwhile the investigation continues. I'm in front of the house where Jennifer's parents were discovered shot. Each one of them had a single gunshot wound to the head. They were found Thursday morning at about 9:00 a.m. They are still collecting forensic evidence in the house but telling us very little about it, because they're afraid if they let too much details out, it will jeopardize the course of their investigation.
Also today, investigators hoping to get later this afternoon autopsy results from the parents. They were hoping that they will be able to pinpoint the time of death. That will help them lay out a timeline for when these events might have transpired. Meanwhile the search is continuing for young Jennifer, but as yet, as I said, she has not shown up. Back to you.
COSTELLO: All right. Thank you, Jeanne Meserve, for the update. It is time to meet our Free-for-all Friday panel. Karel Bouley, contributor to "Billboard" magazine and radio talk show host.
KAREL BOULEY, BILLBOARD MAG CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Carol.
Hello! Also, Blanquita Cullum, a radio talk show host for Radio America, and president of the National Association of Radio Talk Show Hosts.
BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Carol. How are you?
Hi. I'm great. Danny Schechter, founder and executive editor of mediachannel.org, a media monitoring network, and Armstrong Williams, a columnist and host of the syndicated talk show "The Right Side," with Armstrong Williams. Welcome to all.
But before we unleash the opinions of our panel, we have to head to San Diego, California, where the jury in the trial of David Westerfield remains undecided after a week of deliberations. Westerfield is on trial for the kidnapping and killing of 7-year-old Danielle van Dam.
And here to bring us up to date is CNN correspondent Thelma Guiterrez.
So this jury's been out for what, seven days now?
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's correct. They have been out for seven days now. But the jury went home after two- and-a-half hours of deliberations today. No word as to why they did go home. But Carol, I can tell you that before they left for the weekend, they did ask for a read-back of testimony from two forensic experts.
One of the experts, the medical examiner, who looked at Danielle van Dam's body. The body was so badly decomposed that they could not establish how she died, when she died, or whether or not she had been sexually assaulted.
They also asked for a read-back on the testimony of a forensic entomologist, a bug expert who uses the life cycle of insects to try to establish a time of death. Now that person had testified that Danielle's body was not available to insects until about mid-February, which was well after the time that David Westerfield was under 24 hour surveillance by police.
The defense had argued that that is proof that there is no way that David Westerfield could have murdered and then dumped Danielle van Dam.
COSTELLO: And Thelma, the jury in this case has not been sequestered, so jury members are free to go home and about their own business, and there have been some criticism about that. Also defense attorneys are saying that the media has turned into sort of a lynch mob, and are actually harassing jury members.
Why didn't the judge sequester this jury? GUTIERREZ: Well, the judge had said, since the very beginning, that this was a very hard-working jury. After all, this was a jury who had been in the courtroom, who had listened to testimony for 27 days before they even began deliberations. He said that he had no reason to believe that these jurors would ever -- that these jurors -- excuse me, that the jurors would ever violate a court order. I'm sorry, I'm getting some feedback in my ear. It's a little bit hard to hear.
But the second thing that he said was that the jurors that were going to be available to go about their business, to do their own thing -- defense attorney Steven Feldman yesterday asked the jurors be sequestered. The defense attorney said he felt that the jurors were under siege, but lead prosecutor Jeff Dusek said that is not true. The mere fact that the jurors are being watched by the media does not necessarily mean that they are under siege, and so the judge denied the motion once again.
COSTELLO: All right. Thelma Gutierrez, thanks for that update. Want to turn our attention, first off, to Karel Bouley, because you know first-hand what is happening in San Diego. Two radio reporters from a Los Angeles radio station calling jurors as they entered the courtroom broccoli and actual handing out stalks of broccoli to spectators. That could be considered harassment. Tell me what happened.
BOULEY: Well, you know, it is in my opinion, harassment, actually. These are two radio hosts who like to think what they do is entertaining, and it can be, at times, but sometimes, of course, it can get in the way. The jury should be sequestered at this -- they should have been. This is too high profile of a case. And to think they could go on their normal everyday life with this media circus that's erupted or always erupts in these high profile cases is ludicrous.
And they're using -- they had bullhorns shouting at the jurors. They are convinced Westerfield is guilty. They want him put away, and you know, probably without due process. And I think that's the problem here. He's getting due process, guilty or not, that's what is going on here, due process, and if you don't like due process, change the system, but don't shout at the people who are trying to take part in it.
COSTELLO: Blanquita, why don't you weigh in on this. Has the media become a lynch mob in this case?
CULLUM: Well, the media is going to be there out because it's become a spectator sport, what's going on with all these high profile cases. I agree that the jury should be sequestered, but you are never going to be able to keep the media out of it. In some ways, in the majority of cases, the media is the watch dog.
And the media is reflecting the information that the public needs to be able to hear. This time they've gone overboard. There are going to be more cases when they are not. I think, though, that you're going to have a hard time finding a case now that you are not going to have mass media. You have got Internet. You have got television. You have got cameras in every which way you can get them...
COSTELLO: You've got Court TV!
CULLUM: So it's my opinion. Yes, Court TV. There you go.
But I think that you're going to have to protect the juries more, but I think we've got a free press and that's kind of part of the price of admission.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Go ahead.
BOULEY: In foreign countries -- you know, we are the only one that allows this to go on before the verdict has even come down. This -- Westerfield has been tried by the media already. Everybody is so convinced that he's guilty that it's like -- it is a lynch mob mentality now. We want those jurors to come back with a guilty verdict. Why are they taking so long? It's a no brainer.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Let me interrupt you two. Danny Schechter, I want to address this to you. There has been some criticism of this jury. They have only been deliberating for five hours a day. They take a 90 minute lunch break, and today they left after two-and-a-half hours of deliberation.
DANNY SCHECHTER, FOUNDER, MEDIACHANNEL.ORG: I'm not sure the jury decides when it works or how it works. I think being on a jury is very demanding. It's a citizen's responsibility to be on a jury but not to be imprisoned on a jury. Let's sequester the media here. Let's ask for more media responsibility, which I don't hear many people in the media asking for.
Media is not a watchdog here. It's an attack dog, and I think it needs to be restrained.
COSTELLO: OK. On that note I want to go to our audience right now. Carmen (ph), you had a thought.
CARMEN: Well, you know, I think the jury should be sequestered because they are getting outside influences other than the testimony that they hear right there in court. And that's the purpose of having a jury is just to hear the official testimony that the prosecutors and the defense have.
COSTELLO: But Armstrong, don't you think we should trust our jurors? Aren't they responsible adults who surely take a death penalty case seriously?
BOULEY: Well, it's not the jurors that have to be responsible here. It's the media, and we say that the media is the watch dog on these trials. Well, who's the watchdog on the media? The media constantly crosses the line and then screams First Amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Well, now wait a minute. These radio reporters that did the broccoli thing, they were thrown out of covering the court. They can't go back down there, so the media is really watching itself in this instance.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Would you like it to be like it is in Saudi Arabia or Palestine where is no First Amendment?
BOULEY: Well, of course not.
COSTELLO: Wait a second. We want to hear from Armstrong now before the bell rings, because we only have a short time. Armstrong, how do you feel about this?
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it's just the rules of the judge. The judge has decided that the members of the jury would not be sequestered. I definitely agree that they should not, because of the very things we are talking about now.
COSTELLO: No, I hear the bell, Armstrong. I'm sorry to cut you off.
WILLIAMS: That's OK. That's all right. I follow the rules.
COSTELLO: But we are going to -- that's right, we all follow the rules here. We don't need any watchdogs here.
We're going to take a break on TALKBACK LIVE. We'll be back with more of free-for-all Friday right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the Westerfield trial. David Westerfield is accused of killing 7- year-old Danielle van Dam. The jury in the case has been deliberating for, oh, about seven days now. No verdict as of yet. But now defense attorneys are saying the media has turned into such a lynch mob that the jury ought to be sequestered. In fact, the reporting staff has become so bad out at the trial that Judge William Mudd refuses to talk to reporters right now.
We have many audience members who want to weigh in on this topic, so let's go right to the Susanne (ph).
SUSANNE: Hi. I just want to say that is it possible that the judge can change their mind and re-sequester the trial, because I think this could be a smoke screen, because, you know, it could all get going. They're going to say, oh, it's a mistrial because of it.
COSTELLO: Well, that could happen. It could happen, and I think the judge can sequester the jury at this point. Armstrong, do you want to weigh in on this?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, someone made the statement earlier. You know, being sequestered, some people have been sequestered for weeks, and I mean, if you go back to the days of O.J. Simpson trial, how long they were isolated. That can be very difficult when you have families and other commitments, but also you have got to think about the commitment before you decide to be a juror and the responsibilities that come along with that.
You know, the judge had his reasoning. He felt good about this jury, that this jury was very independent, it could not be influenced, and so he decided to sort of bend the rules a little. I think he needs to go back and reconsider this, because we don't want to do anything to taint this trial so there would be a mistrial. And if this guy committed this crime, which many of us believe that he did, he will be punished by the law.
COSTELLO: Well, so far the judge is refusing to sequester the jury, even at this point. And doesn't this bring up the whole topic of the media covering trials live on television? Should this debate get going once again?
BOULEY: Well, you know, it's a rough debate, because you do -- you don't want to isolate the media from these trials. Certainly you want to have coverage of them. But when it becomes sensationalism and coverage for coverage's sake, most of the journalists that are covering this event, once it's over, they'll move on to the next. And they might say they have noble intentions, but truth be told, they are looking for a story, they are looking for ratings, and they think they are giving the people what they want. They think that they are satisfying some hunger. But I like to believe that we are sort of above that. We have moved beyond that. We don't need this salaciousness anymore in our lives. I think we would like...
CULLUM: That's not -- totally not -- I mean, come on. Get over it. I mean, that's exactly what happens. On every single network, every single medium, the coverage news, they're trying...
BOULEY: OK, so we should just keep buying into it, right? We should just keep buying into it...
CULLUM: Oh, absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Oh, wait a minute, guys. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
SCHECHTER: Can I jump in?
COSTELLO: Wait a minute. Yes, please jump in if you're going to take my side.
I have to stand up for members of the media. We are not all that irresponsible. There are some.
CULLUM: He's not saying they are irresponsible.
SCHECHTER: No, exactly. Exactly.
CULLUM: I don't think, Carol, they are irresponsible. What I'm saying is...
BOULEY: No, some of them are irresponsible.
CULLUM: ... that when you have a hot -- well, maybe some are, but the majority are not. And I would say that when there's a story out there and it's hot, you don't think that the press isn't going to cover it? Of course they are going to cover it.
SCHECHTER: It's not just a question of individual reporters. I think a lot of them try do their job, and in this case we are talking about some radio jokesters, not journalists. But you know, it seems to me that it's the networks themselves, the executives who are acting irresponsibly. It's the executives who decide to focus on these stories to the exclusion of other stories. The American people are not being informed about a lot of things that are important. Instead, we have this circus atmosphere, which is actually there to try to get ratings and to try to distract people from a lot of the real problems.
COSTELLO: OK. I want our audience to weigh in on this. Rich, what do you think?
RICH: A couple of thoughts. First of all, I think freedom of the press is a right that you shouldn't infringe on. Once you start down that slippery slope, who knows where you are going to end up.
The second thing, sequestration, I think it's a double-edged sword. Because while you are protecting the jury from outside exposure and outside influences, at the same time you are pulling them outside of their environment and bringing them away from their families and friends, which may force them into making a decision quicker and not quite as thoughtful.
COSTELLO: That's right. How many people could stand to be locked up in a hotel room for weeks?
BOULEY: Depends on who I'm with. But freedom of the press is one thing, but when the press actually becomes part of the story, then it changes the dynamic. And in a lot of these high profile cases, the media actually becomes part of the story. I mean, the Elian Gonzalez debacle -- I was at camp Elian. The media was as much the story as what was going on inside the house. In San Diego, is the First Amendment really that you can walk up to a juror and hand them broccoli?
CULLUM: Well, are you saying -- let me see what you are saying...
COSTELLO: Oh, I'm sorry, the bell has rung. We are going to have to end this free-for-all topic right now. But you can join free- for-all Friday too by calling me 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mailing talkback@cnn.com. Coming up next, should child molesters be banned, absolutely banned from public parks? Find out what happened when one city decided enough was enough. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Oh, we are very spirited this Friday. Welcome back.
In the town of Michigan City, Indiana, public parks are a no-play zone for convicted child molesters. But the Indiana Civil Liberties Union is taking the city to federal court. It says the law punishes molesters twice for the same crime and only targets one type of criminal. And, Armstrong, I know you feel strongly about this, so give me your thoughts.
WILLIAMS: You know, when you are a parent, and it's your duty to protect your child, and realizing that you can't do it 24 hours a day when you are at your best and then you have some sicko out there, someone with deviant behavior who has nothing better to do than prey on someone that's not his own size, that sexually molests a child, as far as I'm concerned, that person has no rights.
And why should a parent be made to feel uncomfortable knowing that sicko is back in that neighborhood, especially when you have situations where they sit around saying they still fantasize about these kids. They have no rights, and the community has every right to keep them out of that neighborhood. They are fortunate that they are not still in jail where they should belong the rest of their lives for molesting a child.
COSTELLO: But, hey, Armstrong, they have done their time.
WILLIAMS: No, they haven't. You can never pay enough time for sexually molesting a child. There's not enough time on earth when you commit that kind of act.
COSTELLO: Does anyone think the civil rights organization has a point, the ACLU?
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: They always jump in to defend these people because they don't want to do the whole slippery slope thing. You know, they are -- yes, they are being punished twice. Of course, they are being punished twice. But I would agree with the other panelists when I say why not punish them twice. I mean, I'm a chocoholic. I should be...
CULLUM: Well, they shouldn't be out period.
BOULEY: You know, I should be banned from sees (ph) candy because I'm a chocoholic. Don't bring me in there. Don't bring these people...
CULLUM: Look, chocolate and child molesting is a big stretch, man. And, frankly, a child molester...
BOULEY: No, but what you're saying is this is what they like, so keep them away.
CULLUM: Let me tell you, a child molester should never get out. I mean, there shouldn't be, you know, this three strikes and you are out. They should be gone, period. They shouldn't be around children. The ACLU picks strange fights, don't they. They want to take the 10 Commandments out of school rooms. They want to fight about God in the Pledge of Allegiance.
SCHECHTER: Blanquita, who else...
CULLUM: And now they want to make molesters able to go into parks. Gosh, they are doing a lot of great things, aren't they?
SCHECHTER: Who else do you want to execute? Who else would you like to just line up against the wall and shoot them down?
CULLUM: I will line up child molesters...
SCHECHTER: What about murderers? Should murderers be allowed in parks? Should disgraced talk show hosts be allowed in parks? I mean, where do you draw the line, that's the question.
CULLUM: All right. I'll tell you where I draw the line. I'll tell you right now where I draw the line. And I tell you as a parent, I draw the line with children who have been molested. I tell you, the people that molest children are vial. They are the worst excuse of human beings. They shouldn't be let out. And I don't care if you want to have a bleeding heart for...
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Let's pause for just a second, panelists. Let's pause for just a second. We want to go from Bill from California. He's on the phone. He has a thought. Bill, what are your thoughts about this?
BILL: Well, I agree that convicted child molesters should be sentenced to life in prison. Think about this: Hardened criminals are harder on child molesters in the joint than they would be on the outside. So, let them stay for life.
COSTELLO: OK, I have a thought here. How about enforcing this thing? How are they ever going to enforce this. I mean...
BOULEY: Well, see, that becomes the issue. First of all, they are not going to just go around in the parks and ask anyone. But it does give law enforcement another tool. Let's say they see someone that is lurking about the park. This gives them another tool to go in, run the wrap sheet, if they are a molester, take them away. And I don't think anyone, any fair-minded human, would say that's unjust. That is not unjust. You have proven in the past that you are a child molester. You are now in a park and you should not be there because it's just too tempting for you. In a way, they are doing these people a favor by keeping them out of here.
COSTELLO: Well, you bring up an interesting point because the man in question, the man who caused this law soon to be, he was a convicted child molester and he was sitting in the park for hours at a time looking through binoculars. So, the city in Indiana thought, well, that's enough.
BOULEY: Right. That is enough.
COSTELLO: Nadine (ph) in our audience has a thought about that.
BOULEY: How many Westerfield cases do we have to have until we start saying there are some rights that you are going to be deprived? If you rape or molest a child, I'm sorry, your days in the park are over.
CULLUM: Absolutely. Absolutely, because...
COSTELLO: Panelists, panelists, pause for Nadine here because the bell is about to ring. Nadine, go ahead.
NADINE (ph): Yes, I want to know how they would enforce this law? How do you -- what does a child molester look like? Are you going to mark them when they come out of jail. If you could put a big CM on them, they would be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(BELL RINGING)
COSTELLO: All right. With that, the bell has rung. I'm sorry. That topic is done for this Friday afternoon. So we are moving on.
Up next, will baseball still be around in September? We'll get an update on a strike date. And then, is the little league getting too big for kids? It's all ahead on "Free-For-All Friday."
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: I'm so sorry to have to say this. Not welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, but welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm sorry to say this, it's finally done. Baseball players have set a strike date. There seems to be little room for optimism after yesterday negotiations between the players and the owners. And both sides described it as a very bad day. So August 31 is the proposed strike date.
I just can't believe, oh, fine panelists, that baseball has come to this again.
CULLUM: Frankly, when you think how much money it costs for the average parent and family of four to go the park, I mean, what is it, like $120...
BOULEY: Yes, it's like Disneyland nowadays.
CULLUM: ... after you buy the food and the tickets and all that stuff. And these guys who are making -- the minimum is like $2 million a year, and they're trying to figure out this money deal. I don't know about you guys, but my listeners are saying they are not -- they don't care about baseball.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Before we go on, panelists, before we go on, we want to go live to Josie Karp, because she has the latest on the baseball strike, so we can get a little more information.
Hey, Josie.
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi. How are you?
COSTELLO: Good.
So, do baseball players realize that the fans are just mad about this?
KARP: I think that they try to say the right thing, that they do realize it. I'm not sure that they really understand the severity of all of it.
But on both sides, the owner and the players have come out and said: "Hey, we know what happened in '94. We remember that popularity of baseball was way down." In fact, attendance when baseball started back up after that 238-day strike was down 30 percent. And it took guys like Cal Ripken and then Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire on their incredible 1998 home run tear to really bring baseball back up.
I think they are well aware that those guys don't play anymore and they are going to be in big trouble if there's another long strike. Again, they are saying it. But I can understand the fan who feels like they are not acting like it.
COSTELLO: Oh, yes. The main sticking point here is still that luxury tax, right?
KARP: I'm sorry. I didn't -- can you...
COSTELLO: The luxury tax, that's still the main sticking point?
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Josie is not hearing us. I heard all that racket behind her, didn't you? I don't know what that was. Hopefully, it didn't affect Josie, though.
We were talking about the payroll luxury tax. That's what the owners want. And I want to give you an example of that, because I think most people don't understand what that is. This is an example of the luxury tax that baseball owners want to impose on seven or eight teams with the biggest pay rolls.
For example, the New York Yankees yearly payroll is $126 million. They want a 50 percent luxury tax, which means the Yankees would have to dish out $63 million, which would be shared amongst the smaller teams. And, of course, in essence the players say, "Hey, this is a salary cap," because, of course, if the Yankees have to shell out $63 million, they can't pay all their players as lavishly.
BOULEY: Oh, you know what? Cry me a river. Just cry me a river, for God's sake.
(APPLAUSE)
BOULEY: I mean, when are we as fans going to stop and just say enough, you guys. Come on. A percentage of something beats 100 percent of nothing. We are no longer their clients. Baseball players no longer care about the fan. They care about their incomes, their Ferraris, their endorsement. And I say that we say enough. Enough. Soccer looks good to me.
CULLUM: They almost had me hooked back with Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. God, I loved that team. They were great, you know?
But when you think about the arrogance of it -- and who is going to have to pay for it? We are. And are we getting our money's worth? I don't think so.
COSTELLO: Well, you know what I find really strange? The last strike, they were out something like 232 games. What other business in America could shut down business for that long and then come back next year and survive?
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Congress.
BOULEY: Yes, Congress.
The airlines can't miss a beat and they are dropping left and right. We have more corporate bankruptcies now than ever. There's more people going out of work. And these guys are going to complain because their millions of dollars might be cut into a little?
CULLUM: Hey, they ought to lower the prices at the ballpark. They ought to give us a better deal and they ought to lower the prices of a hot dog.
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: A better hot dog.
COSTELLO: I don't think that's going to happen, though.
Panelists, pause for a second. We have Al on the phone from California.
Al, give us your thoughts.
CALLER: Are you still there?
COSTELLO: I'm still here. Al, you go for it.
CALLER: OK. I'm a retired man. I'm on a fixed income. I have grandsons. They're 9 and under. And I would like to get them used to the baseball, but I'm not going to go spend $150 and $200 off my fixed income to put them into the baseball game.
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: Take them to a soccer game. It's cheaper. It's more fun.
CULLUM: Take them to a minor league baseball game.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLER: You know what? Let the players go on strike. Get rid of all of them that are in there now making millions and millions of dollars. And bring up some of the young kids that enjoy the game.
BOULEY: Bring them up from the minors, who would be damn happy to get even $300,000 or $400,000 a year.
COSTELLO: That's right.
Let's talk to Irvin from New Jersey.
Irvin, what do you have to say?
IRVIN: I would prefer them not to strike. But if they do strike, I think all the fans should turn their attention to youth programs, high school programs and college programs and go out and support them. They need your support, too. It's the grassroots, where they all started.
COSTELLO: That's right. And maybe they can keep their heads when they go big time.
We have a lot of e-mails coming in, too, that we want to get to, because people are fired up about this topic. So let's slap some of those e-mails up on the screen.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: This is from John in Virginia. He says: "I really hope there is a baseball strike. Maybe then fans will see these players and owners for the greedy people that they are."
BOULEY: I know they are going to do spin and say they are not greedy.
COSTELLO: Let's read this from one from Matt in Illinois. He says: "The owners should use minor league players if there's a strike. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these guys."
BOULEY: Absolutely.
COSTELLO: But you know what? Even after the last strike, fans went back. I mean...
BOULEY: It did drop 30 percent in attendance. And some fans did not go back.
COSTELLO: Some fans didn't go back.
CULLUM: But you also had the magic of Cal Ripken. You had the magic of Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire. And I don't see -- if those guys are disappearing, what do you have there? Where are the stars that are coming up? If you don't have that sex appeal and that magic, it's over.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHECHTER: Do the owners have any responsibility here? Do the owners have any responsibility? Is it just the players' fault? Is that what I'm hearing here? To the owners, is baseball a business?
CULLUM: No, it's across the board.
SCHECHTER: Mutual greed. So let's talk about that.
Let's talk about mutual greed. Let's talk about the role of the TV networks as well, in terms of the deals that they are making with these big corporations, Steinbrenner here in New York, the YES Network, all these various deals that have jacked up my cable rates, for example, even though I didn't ask for that service. I think it's a much more complicated story.
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: As an entertainer, I will tell you, though, the show always goes on for me. If there's a problem with the promoter or with the owner of the whatever, you know what? Your responsibility is to your fans, the people who are paying to see you, the people who have supported your career.
You work out all that paperwork later. But you get out there and you give a show. And I say, if these people don't want to do a show, bring in some people who do.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: And the other point, the thing -- wait a second.
The thing that is getting lost in here somehow is, it is true. There are some teams who are struggling, who will never be able to pay, let's say, a Mark McGwire a huge salary, because the New York Yankees will just suck him up.
WILLIAMS: You know, there's something that is lost here. This is a legitimate argument. No matter what you may think about ownership, they are people who go out and, by the sweat of their brow, make the investment, put up the money, find these players. And they pay these salaries. There's a serious commitment here that I don't think should be disregarded. And there are the fans who are going to suffer the most from whatever the actions are. But if they were to take an example from the NFL, the National Football League, one of the things that keeps the NFL so financial stable is that they are able to take these proceeds and share it among lesser cities who don't have the same kind of revenues that comes in, like the Washington Redskins or the Dallas Cowboys.
And Major League Baseball should do the same, because, if they don't strike now, baseball is not going to exist. They've got to help these smaller cities, bring them along, and share these revenues. So, even though I don't agree with all that the owners are arguing about, the owners have some very legitimate points here. There should be a salary cap.
(BELL RINGING)
COSTELLO: Oh, the bell has rung.
Jim, we are going to try to get you -- Jim, we are going to get you in right now, our audience member. Weigh in.
JIM: Major League Baseball is way out of hand. People should support the minor leagues and the small little league teams and the neighborhood teams and forget about Major League Baseball, whether they go on strike or not.
COSTELLO: All right, I think most of the audience would say, amen, Jim.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: OK, give me a minute here.
If the World Series does bite the dust this year, there's always the Little League World Series. But critics say the say the little league already suffers from big league pressures. We'll get into that, as well as Elvis week and our "Flash Round" right after the news.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE).
COSTELLO: Does all this attention to a dead entertainer have you all shook up? And Chuck D calls this singer the next Elvis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: May I say, we have a fantastic audience today.
Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
If the big leagues won't play, there's always the little league. But even in that minor of minor leagues, there's controversy, disputes over players, big-time TV coverage, and, in general, the feeling that, for little kids, it's not all about just playing ball anymore.
Hey, have you guys -- panelists, have you heard about the latest controversy that three boy who supposedly lived outside the Harlem district were on the team, and there was a big investigation? And it turned out that it was all for naught, because the kids did live in the Harlem district. And they are going to play.
BOULEY: Well, they were free agents, so what could they do?
(LAUGHTER)
BOULEY: It's getting really ridiculous.
When we try to bring the adult world to what is probably one of the purest American art forms, the little league, one of the pieces of Americana. And we're going to just let corporate America go in once again, and greed, and sort of infest it, and turn it into something that it was never intended. And it's going to be very sad if we allow that to happen.
WILLIAMS: Yes, but we cannot ignore the fact that, with some of these little league teams, there are kids that are playing from pressures from their parents and others, claiming that they are a certain age that they are not.
And it makes it bad for all the rest. And so, when they had a legitimate complaint, they had a right to file it. But it was later found out that, yes, some of these kids no longer lived in the community, but they were from the community. They remain with little league. And therefore little league allows that within their rules. So it's not as if there's not a basis for why this controversy ensued. And, fortunately, it turned out the right way this time around. But it does happen.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Well, if it does happen, like it happens, you have to have these little kids follow the rules, because you don't want to start with the little kids breaking the rules, because you want to make sure that these kids get the right start, although, I'll tell you, it's kind of refreshing to see these kids get out there and play.
And if they can play without the pressure of feeling like you have got the media and their parents and everybody trying to put them
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: Parents are the worst thing for little league. I have been to many games.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Oh, OK.
On that thought, we want to head to Jack in our audience, who knows about pressure in little league.
Jack, tell us your thoughts.
SCHECHTER: The little league is a global phenomenon, not just an American phenomenon.
COSTELLO: Jack, go ahead.
JACK: Well, I played little league baseball. And I think what these people are doing to all these kids, accusing them of cheating and everything, I think it's ridiculous and that they are ruining the whole experience for everyone in the league.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
COSTELLO: Well, there you go. The Little League World Series is going to be on ESPN2, I believe.
CULLUM: What team does he play for? What team does he play for?
COSTELLO: What team do you play for, Jack?
I can't hear you, hon. What?
The Rebels. He plays for the Rebels. Are you familiar with...
CULLUM: All right, go Rebels.
BOULEY: Go Rebels.
COSTELLO: All right.
But the Little League World Series is going to be on ESPN. It's going to be broadcast to the whole United States. And ABC has brought in some big-time broadcasters to broadcast the games. Is that in itself putting pressure on these little kids to be big-time athletes?
BOULEY: Absolutely.
And I would like to find a way to try to isolate. I wasn't joking when I said parents -- I have covered so many stories as a talk show host of parents at games getting in huge fights with each other and children on the verge of abuse. Parents are yelling at their kids to be better, because they want to make it to the majors. Adults infesting little league is one of the worst things to ever happen to it.
COSTELLO: But you need adults there, too, don't you?
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: It's a fun thing.
My dad used to be a Pop Warner coach for years and years and years. And some of those little guys grew up and they became All- American stars. And it's wonderful to see these young kids go out and do it. And if you can get that kind of enthusiasm, it's kind of an all-American thing. And I know it's global, but, still, it's an American sport. And little league is just
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Oh, come on. Is baseball really an all-American sport anymore? Oh, come on.
Danny, weigh in on this.
SCHECHTER: Well, first of all, tell it to the kids in Taiwan who have won the world championship for a number of years. They are players as well.
I was a little league coach, the great Greenwich Village Little League. And my daughter was pitching. And I think it's a great thing. But what's really great about it is the lack of commercialization, the lack of the values that dominate Major League Baseball, for the most part. And it is important we keep it that way.
CULLUM: Are you going to tell me that baseball is not perceived as the American sport, even though it's gone global? It's like jazz. It's American music, even though the French play it and the Japanese play it.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Yes, but you are making it sound like...
BOULEY: I don't want to see a 12-year-old signing an endorsement deal with Kix or something..
(CROSSTALK)
SCHECHTER: Why do we need all this nationalism? Why do we need for America to be in control of it? This is a world phenomenon, just like the World Cup is a world phenomenon.
COSTELLO: All right, let's pause for a moment, panelists, because we have Mike from Georgia on the phone.
Mike, what are your thoughts?
CALLER: Well, Danny, I'm glad that you had a chance to speak for once. They have been kind of shutting you out.
But, anyway, it's coming back to the same thing with Major League Baseball. When you start getting all these sponsors, all these different companies involved in everything, now you are ruining what you say is an America pastime. Now you have got kids involved in this. And now it's where you are putting pressures on them.
The parents, of course, put a lot pressures on them. Let them enjoy the game, and, hopefully, that that generation of baseball or little league players, when they get grown up to be Major League players, they won't be asking for the hundreds and millions of dollars that these guys are getting now for playing a sport.
(BELL RINGING)
CALLER: And we have to remember
(CROSSTALK)
CALLER: ... payment.
COSTELLO: Mike, I think you are dreaming, but thank you for your comments.
There's the bell. You heard it. So, put on your blue suede shoes and get ready to do the Elvis stomp. We are treading on Graceland coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
Elvis Presley has been dead for, what, 25 years? Yet you see more of him on television this week than you would have in the last year of his life. Friends from all over the world have been swarming Graceland, some of them holding an all-night vigil last night in the rain to commemorate the silver anniversary of his death. And the media coverage has been relentless.
So, it too much? I want to like clap if you think it's been too much.
(APPLAUSE)
COSTELLO: I got to say, audience, though -- I have to say 70,000 people went to Graceland for this silver anniversary. It's just been unbelievable.
So is it too much, Danny?
SCHECHTER: I think it is too much. We are avoiding dealing with so much.
I have to say that Eminem is going to be bigger than Elvis -- I know that's going to outrage some of the folks -- because he deals with reality, not fantasy. Let's not forget how Elvis died. Let's not forget what happened to Elvis. And we want to make sure that doesn't happen to the rest of our culture and our cultural heroes.
COSTELLO: So, you're saying that Elvis doesn't deserve all this hero worship?
SCHECHTER: Yes. I think Elvis was a great artist. I love his music. But he's not a role model and shouldn't be for Americans.
BOULEY: You mentioned Eminem. And I've heard you mention him before.
Elvis is doing what Eminem is doing, actually. Elvis took what African-Americans were doing at the time and made it his own, because they couldn't, due to racial bias and prejudice at the time. So, basically, he was ripping off black folk. And Eminem does the same thing.
SCHECHTER: I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's fair at all.
BOULEY: I don't care whether you think it's fair.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHECHTER: I don't care if you think what I think isn't right. But you can listen to me and just hear me. So, why don't you keep quiet for a second and let me say something, instead of coming over me?
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Come on, Danny.
SCHECHTER: Let me tell you, Eminem was just named by a Web site that's part of, that's been connected to Media Channel as journalist of the year -- journalist of the year. Why? Because he deals with reality in a way that most of us don't.
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: What was reality?
(CROSSTALK)
BOULEY: Wait a minute. You want me to be quiet. Whose reality? I have lived in the street, much like Eminem. And whose reality is he dealing with in his limo and his giant house?
COSTELLO: Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I just have to say something. The difference between Eminem and Elvis is, Eminem, his producer is Dr. Dre, who is a black rapper and has made Eminem what he is today.
BOULEY: Elvis had many black writers.
CULLUM: The other difference is that Elvis was sexy.
And you know what? Elvis had a charm about him. And Elvis was a bad boy. He was a guy that was shooting at television sets and taking all his friends to movies in the middle of the night. And he had all the women. He was a sexy guy. He's a character. He is something like Marilyn Monroe. He's like James Dean. Eminem is of another era. He's another kind of guy.
(CROSSTALK) COSTELLO: Wait a second. Wait a second. So he was sexy. So he was sexy. So were a lot of people. Does he deserve all of this worship that he's receiving right now?
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Before you ad something, we want to go to Ed on the phone right now.
Ed, where are you from?
CALLER: Anaheim, California.
COSTELLO: Do you think Elvis deserves all this attention this week?
CALLER: No, I don't, because, No. 1, he was a very mediocre singer. And Billy Eckstein at that time was a much better singer than him. He couldn't have carried Billy Eckstein's shoes. And, for that matter, he couldn't have carried Frank Sinatra or a whole bunch of other singers that I can't even remember.
COSTELLO: I have got to tell you, Ed, you are getting a lot of boos from the audience, a lot of boos.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHECHTER: Who is hyping Elvis?
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Elvis is sexy like Marilyn Monroe was sexy. They have their own groove. It's a thing that goes on beyond Eminem.
BOULEY: Elvis Presley was a wonderful pop star. He was a great pop star.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Let me interrupt for just a second. Let me interrupt for just a second, panelists.
I want to know why a grown man goes to Graceland, holds a candle for a vigil, and sobs because this pop star died 25 years ago.
(APPLAUSE)
BOULEY: We all want to know why, because they have no life. They need a life. We all want to know why.
CULLUM: Because they probably have a little fantasy. Big deal. It's a harmless thing. Why are you giving them so much grief?
(BELL RINGING)
CULLUM: If that's the worst thing... COSTELLO: Oh, no, the bell has rung. We are going to talk more Elvis, though. You still keep standing up there.
It is time for a break. When we come back: "Flash Round," real news, real fast, and whole lot of fun. You can join in, too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Welcome back. I'm Carol Costello, filling in for Arthel Neville this afternoon.
OK, it is time for the most exciting part of our show, time for the "Flash Round." So, ready or not, here goes.
As we come up on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks, can you tell New York firefighters and police they cannot have a raise?
Blanquita.
CULLUM: Absolutely not. You have got to take care of the guys that are taking care of you. I think it will be a bad thing for Bloomberg if he doesn't support these guys.
COSTELLO: Corel.
BOULEY: I would agree that, at this point, you really can't do it. Let's just make sure these agencies aren't using this as a way to actually get more.
COSTELLO: Danny.
SCHECHTER: A raise? Why not?
COSTELLO: Armstrong.
WILLIAMS: Of course, but New York has a deficit. Someone has to pay for it.
COSTELLO: All right, on to our next topic: an Arizona rule on gays kissing in prison. Should gay inmates be allowed to lock lips with same-sex friends who drop by for a visit?
Corel.
BOULEY: Well, why should they only have do it behind the scenes with the guards? Why not be able to do it with the people out in the public?
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Blanquita.
CULLUM: Well, at least they will be a different kind of bar they are going to do. It's only this time behind bars.
COSTELLO: Danny. SCHECHTER: I'm all for. Why not?
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Armstrong.
WILLIAMS: I'm speechless.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: OK.
Zero tolerance now: A Georgia boy gets suspended from kindergarten for bringing plastic guns to school. The guns belonged to his G.I. Joe doll and range in size from 2 to 6 inches. Should he have been suspended?
Corel.
BOULEY: One again, a severe case of overreaction. No, he should have been told that this is not a proper thing to do and then that that was that.
COSTELLO: Blanquita.
CULLUM: You bet. They made a big thing over nothing. They should have packed their guns away and let the little boy understand better
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Danny.
SCHECHTER: Gun control. Let's replace real guns with plastic guns.
COSTELLO: Armstrong.
WILLIAMS: No, he shouldn't have been suspended, no.
COSTELLO: OK.
Hooters eyes Vanguard Airlines. Do you want Hooters girls to be your flight attendants?
Corel.
BOULEY: I would only want this if there would also be Chip 'n' Dale airlines, so we have them in their little Speedos going down the little aisle way.
COSTELLO: Blanquita.
CULLUM: Hey, if they don't go bust, this could be an uplifting experience.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Danny.
SCHECHTER: I prefer airline safety myself.
COSTELLO: Armstrong.
WILLIAMS: If he can afford it, why not.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Gwyneth Paltrow complains that British men don't ask her out. A Canadian journalist complains that they are inept at seduction. The press calls it the Casanova moan. Are Englishmen getting a bad rap?
Corel.
BOULEY: Gwyneth Paltrow, do us all a favor and be please quiet about who hits on you.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Blanquita.
CULLUM: She will never get asked out by a Brit. She might get a better date with the queen.
COSTELLO: Armstrong.
COSTELLO: Oh, I skipped -- go ahead, Armstrong.
WILLIAMS: I think she is making progress. Just keep listening to her.
COSTELLO: Danny.
SCHECHTER: Just about Britain: Today, a current CNN executive said that the media...
(BELL RINGING)
COSTELLO: Thank God the bell rang on that one.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: I'm sorry, Danny. We are out of time.
SCHECHTER: OK. Sorry. Tried to get that in.
COSTELLO: Corel, Blanquita, Danny, and Armstrong...
CULLUM: Thank you, Carol.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Thank you. Thank you for having it out with us today.
I'm Carol Costello. We've had a lot of fun filling in on TALKBACK LIVE this week. You can normally catch me from 5:00-7:00 a.m. Eastern time on CNN's "DAYBREAK." So get up early. Check out "DAYBREAK." We have a lot of fun.
And tune in to TALKBACK on Monday, when Arthel Neville will be back from assignment.
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