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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Al Qaeda Tapes Reveal Chilling Accounts of Weapons Testing; How Will Teachers Handle September 11 Attacks?
Aired August 19, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
I know you have been waiting all day to talk about those exclusive al Qaeda tapes Nic Robertson brought back from Afghanistan. CNN has obtained quite an archive of inside training videos, 64 to be exact. Now, they span more than a decade, include a chilling look at chemical testing on dogs, never before seen video of Osama bin Laden, and a news broadcast of September 11 attacks. And later on, we're going to talk about what the NEA thinks is a good approach for handling the anniversary of the September 11 attacks. Will teachers blame America? We'll find out.
But right now, we're going to meet our guests, CNN national correspondent Mike Boettcher and CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. Peter has just completed his book called "Holy War Incorporated." And I also want to warn you that some of these tapes we're going to be showing today are quite disturbing. Welcome gentlemen to TALKBACK LIVE.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Hello.
NEVILLE: First, Mike, I want to start with you, and get sort of a perspective from Nic's perspective, as his ordeal of going there to obtain those tapes, and wondering if any point if you can tell us if Nic feared for his life?
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you from my perspective, having spent five weeks in Afghanistan this summer, that the roads that he had to take to get there are not safe. Once you get outside of Kabul, and they're traveling 17 hours to get to where you are going to get, it is very, very dangerous. Nothing is insured there, and it is -- what he did took a great deal of courage.
NEVILLE: I mean, the thing is, we can sit here and we think of danger. If you happen to turn down a wrong road in a certain neighborhood, you are in danger. This is beyond that, if there's a way you can paint a picture of the fear. We're talking about hair standing on the back of your neck danger?
BOETTCHER: Well, I'll give you a perfect example. One night, I was coming out of Bagram Air Base, and we had to leave late, and it was dark. But we had to get back, but we felt we had to get back. We were not out of the gates of Bagram Air Base for more than two minutes and someone opened fire on the car. So you just do not know. There is a lot lurking out there in the dark. The whole territory is not controlled by coalition forces or the Afghan government. There is cowboy country out there. And where Nic went, it was cowboy country.
NEVILLE: Nic also told us that he had this fear that this might have turned out to be a hoax, a terrible hoax, that he had been duped. Tell us how as a reporter going after such sensitive information under those circumstances, how that might feel?
BOETTCHER: Well, especially in light of what happened to Daniel Pearl, it is tough operating out there. It can be scary sometimes operating out there. And you don't know whether to believe your source, but you've got to trust in your own gut and the source. And you weigh these risks and sometimes you say, well, it is too dog gone dangerous, and sometimes you say let's go for it. And Nic said let's go for it and it is a good thing he did.
NEVILLE: Tell us about Nic's relationship with the source. I mean, he had to put his life in this person's hands.
BOETTCHER: Well, we are all very private about our various sources...
NEVILLE: Absolutely. I am not asking who the source is, just what about that relationship that made him follow his gut and say I can go with this person.
BOETTCHER: I think Nic had met the source in other circumstances before and felt comfortable with him, felt that this source, as Nic has said, was familiar with the West, familiar with the western media, and was not there to set him up, was there to lead him to the archives.
NEVILLE: And then Nic said at some point, he felt like the tension was so fierce that he did not even want to eat?
BOETTCHER: Yes. You know, Peter is the same way. I mean, we live this stuff. And I was not even there at the time when he got it. And once I heard that they had it, I could not eat. I mean, I was just thinking about knowing what was on the tapes, and what they meant to me was hugely significant. Even though it has been talked about, that al Qaeda had a chemical weapons program going on, when you actually take that from the print and show people for the first time, probably in media history, a chemical test on a living being, that brings it home. And we've reported on this for a long time, and I said, you know, finally, there is going to be something that will show people, these people are serious. Al Qaeda is serious. And this shows it.
NEVILLE: So, Peter, let's bring you into this conversation at this point. Does this mean that America should take the al Qaeda even more seriously or less?
BERGEN: Well, I think America should take al Qaeda very seriously, because al Qaeda is an organization devoted to killing Americans, and is not out of business. And talking about, you know, the speculation that we are going to go to war against Iraq, it seems to be rather ludicrous, particularly with these tapes, in a sense. I mean, this is evidence of the intentions of al Qaeda. We have not won the war. The United States has not won the war against al Qaeda.
The top leadership, bin Laden, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, others in the group, the man who actually did these chemical weapons tests, perhaps, Abu Khabab (ph), these people are still at large. And there is no evidence yet that bin Laden is dead or captured or his No. 2. So I think that these tapes just remind us that al Qaeda was very serious, developing weapons of mass destruction, it looks like, training people how to make TNT, training people how to use rocket-propelled grenades.
We heard just very recently in Saudi Arabia, an al Qaeda member was arrested with a SAM-7 (ph), which is a type of rocket-propelled grenade. It is exactly the same type of rocket-propelled grenade that we see in these videotapes. So I think these tapes remind us of the threat posed by the group. The threat has always been there, we just -- we need need to be reminded.
NEVILLE: And, quite frankly, I read an article in the "New York Times" that says, hey, listen, Americans cannot underestimate al Qaeda, and this, in fact, proves that perhaps they have been underestimated for far too long.
BERGEN: Americans have a habit of forgetting things rather quickly. I mean, we are a country, as a general principle, that does not remember things for very long; 9/11 may recede into -- you know, people may think that 9/11 is sort of ancient history. It is quite possible that there is another big attack from al Qaeda in the pipeline.
Al Qaeda as a group is capable of mounting two operations simultaneously. The USS Cole, which was the warship destroyed in Yemen by al Qaeda, that operation was planned at the same time that the group was planning 9/11. So, I do not want to be alarmist. I'm just pointing out that they have mounted two simultaneously large operations at once.
NEVILLE: And that is something that has been a big discussion regarding the CIA, the FBI agents, American intelligence overall, that there is a part -- there is some sort of arrogance almost on their part that, you know what, we are bigger, we are badder, they can't dupe us. They can't outsmart us.
BOETTCHER: Let me give you my personal opinion in terms of that. I do not think that the coalition operatives around the frontline tracking down al Qaeda now very well how sophisticated they are. And this doesn't surprise them. I do not think they underestimate. I really don't and my gut tells me in talking to these people they do not underestimate the threat. In fact, they have got their hands full. And they are out there every day on the frontline risking their lives trying to track this stuff down.
And, you know, I don't think they underestimate it. But I think the public, as the period as Peter pointed out from 9/11 went by, I think began to underestimate, well, there's not been another attack, maybe we've won this thing. That's not the case.
NEVILLE: Got to take a break right now. We will definitely continue this discussion after we come back. We're going to talk more about these tapes. And I want to hear what you think about this. So, give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN. Of course, you can e-mail me talkback@cnn.com. There is much more ahead on TALKBACK LIVE.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.
We're talking about those CNN exclusive videotapes showing al Qaeda troops training. And, Peter and Mike, I want to go with you now, if you could talk to us a little bit more specifically about what is on the tape. We are going to show some pictures. You can show us what we are seeing and what sort of information we can extract from those pictures.
BOETTCHER: You are seeing a test done outside. There were three tests. This was the final test on the videotape, a dog in a glass cage. And it is believed this is at the Abu Khabab (ph) camp, which was the main camp al Qaeda used or the only camp, frankly, al Qaeda used to test chemical weapons.
In the previous tape, the first test you see a vapor. In this one, you don't. And it is still unclear the delivery system. But you see the dog slowly start to lose muscle control. He starts to, you see, lick his lips there, indicating, according to some of the experts we have spoken to, some effect on the respiratory system. And the dog dies in about four minutes.
Like I say, it is not known what the agent was but there is disagreement. Some believe it is a nerve agent. Others believe it is cyanide. And there is evidence to indicate both. I think what could be more likely is there were different agents tested in those three different tests and administered different ways.
NEVILLE: So, how extensive are their chemical weapons capabilities?
BOETTCHER: Well, nothing like an organized government would have, but they do have a capability. With a terrorist group, you do not need a great capability. You do not need a missile delivery system. You need your version of a missile, which is a person willing to take a canister or a bag into a subway system or somewhere else, drop it, and create panic like happened in Tokyo and the sarin gas attacks.
NEVILLE: Peter, the fact that Osama bin Laden documented all of this, what does this say about him and his warped vision?
BERGEN: Well, I mean, what it says about him is he is very -- he's quite careful about his media image he's kind of interested in cultivating. We live in a media age. Bin Laden is a fairly smart individual, and he has used the media for his own purposes, in much the same way that any politician or any kind of figure with a sort of political program. And bin Laden has been quite successful in that level.
As early as 1987, bin Laden -- an Egyptian journalist started documenting bin Laden's activities. So, these videotapes, in a way, are sort of a combination of this impulse for him to document himself and the group.
NEVILLE: Sort of for posterity?
BERGEN: Yes, I think there are three -- looking at the tapes, there seem to be three categories. One set of tapes is instructional, how to build -- you know, how to use a rocket-propelled grenade, how to make TNT. Another set is basically let's preserve the historical record of our important group which is, you know, videotaping interviews that they did with CNN, with ABC News, videotaping press conferences themselves. And the final set seems to be the just sort of collecting videotapes from groups around the world that were related to al Qaeda.
In this pile of videotapes that Nic Robertson got, we have videotapes from Burma, from Chechnya, from Bosnia, from Somalia, from Ebertriev (ph), all basically documenting other groups that had either links to al Qaeda or that al Qaeda was interested in. So, you really have three sets of reasons to collect these videotapes.
BOETTCHER: And I am told by my sources that bin Laden insisted on keeping track of what was going on in terms of testing, in terms of training, and these various groups. And groups sent him materials, this is what we are doing here in Burma or we're doing here in Eretriev (ph). And he's exactly right on his analysis on how this is divided.
But one of the sources I talked to and the second one as well said that he believed that the fact that bin Laden had this ambition to keep track of everything indicated that had these tapes very likely came from bin Laden's personal archive.
NEVILLE: You know what, guys, hang on for me. I have an e-mail I want to share with the audience right now, if we can pop that up on the screen. It's from Norma in Florida. She says: "I don't care how CNN got the tapes. CNN and the reporter should have turned over to the government immediately. The name of the game is ratings."
BERGEN: Can I respond to that?
NEVILLE: Absolutely.
BERGEN: The role of the press is very simple. We are the information gathering arm of the American public, and not the information gathering arm of the American government. And possibly one of the reasons that Danny Pearl was killed, the Pakistani journalist, is the "Wall Street Journal" handed over a computer, an al Qaeda computer, and very publicly said it was doing so. And I know that people within the "Journal" are concerned that perhaps they did that too hastily. And if it is seen that we are -- let's say it became routine for American journalists to hand over these kinds of things to the American government, it would in fact jeopardize a lot of American journalists' lives.
BOETTCHER: I promise you, when Nic Robertson was on that long road and at night driving back, he was not thinking, man, we are going to get a 20-share on this. He was not thinking that.
NEVILLE: Exactly. Absolutely not. He was thinking about getting out of there alive. Mike Boettcher, Peter Bergen, thank you very much for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE today.
And CNN, of course, will bring you more details of those 64 tapes over the next week. Tomorrow, we will look at the roots of hatred. And Wednesday, we'll see the making of purified TNT from easy-to-get materials. Thursday, we'll view some training videos. And then on Friday, a new look at Osama bin Laden. So stay tuned to CNN.
And TALKBACK LIVE will continue after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.
What are your children learning about the September 11 terrorist attacks? The National Education Association has several lessons plans teachers can choose from to help students understand what happened that day. But critics say the plan takes a blame-America approach to the events of September 11, and rather than focusing on the facts of the day, they focus on faulting all of Western civilization.
Here to talk about it, Jerald Newberry, director of the National Education Association's health and information network. And I would like to welcome you to TALKBACK LIVE.
JERALD NEWBERRY, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION: Thank you. It's great to be here.
NEVILLE: OK. First up, why don't you go ahead and give us an idea of what are the suggestions to the teachers as to how to handle the teachings of September 11?
NEWBERRY: Well, we are very excited about this new site. After September 11, we fielded thousands of calls from parents and teachers who asked us to help them have conversations with their kids about this terrible event. And then they asked us a year later if we would help them have a conversation to help honor the heroes who helped to save America that day.
NEVILLE: OK. Having said that, what are you suggesting to the teachers?
NEWBERRY: We have hundreds -- we have more than 100 lesson plans for early elementary, late elementary, middle school and high school, center around patriotism, center around America's history and how this event fits into those events. We have a patriot packet where... NEVILLE: OK, let me jump in there. Before you go on, Mr. Newberry, I want to be more specific here. And if you could, let's start with the elementary school students, for instance. Give me specific examples of what you are suggesting the teachers say to these students regarding September 11.
NEWBERRY: An activity for elementary: having the kids do a tower of hope, where the kids look at newspaper interviews of people in their communities, people in New York City, people in Washington D.C., and the kids would work together to write a story about how neighborhood people helped neighborhood people get through 9/11.
NEVILLE: OK. How do you handle it with the high school level, because, of course, those students are definitely more aware of what happened and they understand that this is not a black and white issue. They understand that this is more complex. So, what do you -- how do you suggest the teachers handle that age group?
NEWBERRY: At the bottom of the front page of our new Web site, there is a button you can click on called war on terrorism. And that button has CNN's Web site, it has national news Web sites, it has government Web sites, that help students understand how America's taking on the enemy here.
The enemy here is Osama bin Laden. The enemy here is al Qaeda. And there are many plans how America is going to work together to take on the that enemy. The plan for high school students is for them to analyze those plans, to talk about them. We have -- most of our activities are married to activities that kids can do with their parents in their home when they go home that evening.
NEVILLE: OK. Mr. Newberry, I want to jump in here because from the articles that I've read on this proposal here, that some people are saying that you guys are promoting, don't blame anyone atmosphere here. And then some say that are you promoting a blame America, almost, to highlight America's intolerance.
NEWBERRY: Well, I think we can all guess who is saying those things. What's interesting is that the site did not even become live until 8:00 this morning, and those articles were written yesterday. So I think people who are saying that are people who are using 9/11 to get across their own political messages.
What we are doing here is responding to the requests of teachers and parents to help America's children make sense of this event, grow from this event, and create a stronger America.
NEVILLE: OK. Jerald Newberry, thanks so much for joining me here on TALKBACK LIVE.
And critics charge the NEA is promoting a blame-America attitude, as I just said. We are going to hear the other side when we come back. TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
We're talking about what your children will be learning about the September 11 terrorist attacks.
And joining us now is Sandy Rios, president of Concerned Women for America and host of "The Sandy Rios Show" on WYLL Radio in Chicago.
Welcome to you, Ms. Rios. How are you?
SANDY RIOS, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Arthel, can I correct you?
NEVILLE: Go right ahead.
RIOS: I'm in Washington, D.C. now and I host the "Concerned Women Today" show every day. But I was a radio host in Chicago for a number of years.
NEVILLE: Usually, our research staff is all over it. Today, they are not. But it is OK. Thanks for the clarification.
RIOS: That's all right.
NEVILLE: Let me go here for a second here. What is your understanding of what the NEA is suggesting as teaching material regarding September 11. And do you have a problem with talking about why September 11 happened?
RIOS: Well, Arthel, it is interesting that Mr. Newberry would not be on camera with me. And I also noticed that he, basically, on camera, changed their curriculum.
He just now said that his curriculum pointed to Osama bin Laden as guilty, that the al Qaeda was the enemy. But let me read you what this curriculum actually says. It says that, "Teachers should not suggest any group responsible for the terrorist hijackings that killed more than 3,000." It says, "Blaming is especially difficult in terrorist situations." It goes on to say that, "People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."
So, in other words, our kids are not able to blame al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden until they have had a trial. And that is just a portion of their curriculum. And then they go on to insist that teachers talk about all the bad things Americans have done to contribute to the September 11 attacks.
I think it is unconscionable that the nation's teachers are being encouraged to teach such lack of patriotism, anti-patriotism. We did not know the Japanese -- we knew on December 7, 1941 that the Japanese were responsible for the bombing of Pearl Harbor. We didn't wait until they went to court and a judge decided. And yet that is what the NEA is suggesting that teachers teach our children. Arthel, I would like to also say that I think it is very interesting that this nation is in an education crisis. Kids cannot read. They cannot spell. They cannot do grammar. They don't know their history.
NEVILLE: OK, but Sandy, let me back up for a second here. Is there a danger in teaching -- in not teaching tolerance and also simplifying September 11 and what happened into a black-and-white issue? It's not. It's not that simple.
RIOS: I think it is very simple, Arthel.
The al Qaeda, the group of al Qaeda got together a bunch of terrorists. They trained for years. They strategized. And they murdered 3,000 Americans. I think that is pretty clear. I think it is also OK to love our country and want to protect it and want to do something to stop this, like the terrorism we saw in the videos that you showed earlier in this segment. That is OK. That is very clear to me.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Sandy, I can understand that you may not feel that there is a rational reason for what they did. I'm just simply posing the question: Should students be taught to at least evaluate, try to see what is happening from the other side, what would make someone create or commit such a heinous act on Americans?
RIOS: There is nothing wrong with that, Arthel.
But when you start indicating that America is responsible, that somehow we have contributed to this, that is bogus. That is unpatriotic. It is lies. It is not truth. And educators should be in the business of educating, not misleading our children.
They are our future, Arthel. And if we teach them that, "There is no right and wrong and that there is no time to go to war on behalf of your country because it's your fault you were attacked," we have a very bleak future.
NEVILLE: Hang on, Sandy.
I have got Ann from North Carolina here.
What do you say, Ann?
ANN: Well, I do think that the teachers will probably use the truth. I think that, even if the National Education Association tells them -- I honestly believe the majority of teachers will tell the children the truth, and let the children maybe ask questions to them, and they will answer them with truth.
NEVILLE: What's your point here, Ann?
ANN: My point is, you cannot blame America. And I don't think the teachers will blame America. I can't believe that. It just -- I can't believe that somebody could tell them to blame America.
NEVILLE: Hang on here.
Let me pop up an e-mail for you I want to share with the audience. Let's see what the e-mail says.
It is from Pat in Montana. It says: "I am a recently retired teacher. Teachers will not use questionable materials in their classrooms. They're smarter than that."
Sandy, do you -- what do you say to that, Sandy Rios?
RIOS: Well, I do think that the NEA has really gone way over the line. I think they have been over the line for a long time. And we have signs that some of the teachers are rebelling.
And thank God for that, because the NEA has been pushing some of the most leftist social agendas for last 20 or 30 years. They require dues from their membership. It is not something that you do because you want to. And they use this money to
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Sandy, hang on one second. Sandy, you know what? There is some people -- and I might even say that -- that the way that you are proposing teaching students of America, the way I see it, you wouldn't even include slavery in there, because it was a bad thing. "Oh, we better not talk about that. We better not understand why that happened. Don't say anything bad about America."
Come on. I'm an American, so I'm not trying to be unpatriotic. But we have to be realistic and we need to broaden our horizons and understand what happens, from various viewpoints.
RIOS: Arthel, I don't think I said anything related to that.
One thing I would recommend, there is a great book called "What's So Great About America?" written by Dinesh D'Souza. I would love to see the NEA prescribe that for their curriculums. One of the points that Dinesh makes is that, yes, we go back and we talk about American slavery. And it is this shameful thing in our history. But many nations have practiced slavery.
The uniqueness of the United States is that we abolished it. We did what was right. We made it right. And many people lost their lives and sacrificed.
NEVILLE: And, boy, what repercussions.
Let me take an e-mail right now. Let's see. Hang on one sec, Sandy.
From Tim in Utah: "If the U.S. can't even look at its faults, what chance do we have at truly being a free country?"
And I'm going to let Sandy from Wisconsin jump in now. SANDY: I am a member of NEA. And I think I'm an intelligent person. And I'm a teacher. And I teach my classes the way I want to teach my classes, according to my curriculum. I'm not according to what the NEA would tell me to do.
And I can't imagine that I wouldn't let my children, my seventh- grade students ask questions about what was going on. And I can't say that I would just say that it was al Qaeda. I guess I'm a little bit upset. I'm patriotic. My students are patriotic. They are scared. They want to know what's going on. They want to know what their government is doing, what we're doing to make them safe.
I don't think the NEA is telling me what to do. And I hope that most teachers don't think the NEA is telling them what to do. I guess I'm a little frustrated by hearing your saying that I'm being told things that I don't know that I am being told.
NEVILLE: Hang on, Sandy Rios. I have a phone call now I want to take from Ian.
Go ahead, Ian. You are live.
CALLER: Yes, my comment was to Sandy.
I wanted to, first of all, say that, by saying that everybody has slavery, that is no reason to justify it as all right.
(CROSSTALK)
RIOS: Oh, Ian, I did not say that. I didn't say anything related to that. I said that it is a shameful thing.
CALLER: Oh, well, you just commented to that everybody has slavery, but only America abolished it. In a sense, you were giving off that it is OK to have it as long as you abolished it.
(CROSSTALK)
RIOS: Ian, I did not. I did no such thing.
CALLER: And so, on the comment that we shouldn't teach our children that America is at fault, I think we need to show both sides of the story.
(CROSSTALK)
RIOS: You tell me, what did do to deserve September 11, Ian?
CALLER: America has been oppressing other people for years. And while I'm pro-American
(CROSSTALK)
RIOS: You are product of American schools. You are a disgraceful product of American schools. NEVILLE: But, Sandy, see, if you are saying that there is a problem with American schools, then this is the point. We need to open it up. And we need to learn things that are beyond the borders of America.
RIOS: Arthel, of course, we do. I never said that we shouldn't do that. But there is nothing wrong with teaching that you can love your country and protect it -- and that you deserve every attack that comes, whether it was from the Japanese on December 7 or al Qaeda on September 11. We have a right to defend ourselves. We have a right to love our country. There is nothing wrong with that. And I would like for teachers to teach that in the classrooms.
NEVILLE: Sandy, that is final word from you.
Sandy Rios, thank you so much joining me here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
Up next: Should the U.S. attack Iraq? And look who is sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom now. It's not as exciting as when Clinton was in the White House, but we'll find out who it is -- back in a moment .
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE: Who is sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom? The overnight guest list was a big deal when Bill Clinton was in the White House. So, why isn't more being said about the Bush overnight guest list? Is the Lincoln Bedroom still for sale? Find out today on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
President Bush is gathering his military experts, as well as Vice President Dick Cheney, at his ranch Wednesday for a military summit. They will apparently be talking about whether the time is right to attack Iraq. If Mr. Bush decides Saddam Hussein must go, he'll have to rally public as well as international support.
Do you think that is possible? And should we be attacking Iraq in the first place?
Here to talk about it is radio talk show host Peter Noel; and James Hirsen, an attorney and author and syndicated radio talk show host for the American Freedom Network. You have too many jobs. He also writes for NewsMax.com.
(LAUGHTER)
JAMES HIRSEN, NEWSMAX.COM: How you doing, Arthel?
NEVILLE: Welcome to both of you.
PETER NOEL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Great to be with you.
NEVILLE: All right, Peter, you are up first.
President Bush seems to be losing more and more support in his quest to oust Saddam Hussein. Why is that?
NOEL: Well, look, first, Arthel, I wish that Nic Robertson had gone to Iraq and brought back some tapes. That is the type of stuff I need, the kind of evidence I would need to support him to attack Iraq.
And I'm a bit suspicious about why Scowcroft and all these other high-profile Republicans are attacking the president at this point in time. I believe that they are hiding something, that somehow that the elder Bush did something that they are trying to protect, because Republicans are pretty much gung-ho about going after Iraq and all these other places. Something is wrong here.
NEVILLE: James, is something wrong here?
HIRSEN: Well, no, I don't think so. I think Peter is speculating a little bit. I mean, look...
NOEL: Well, it is my opinion, of course.
HIRSEN: We had a policy of containment. That was a policy. It was called containment after the first Gulf War. And it's obvious it didn't work.
NOEL: They are hiding something.
HIRSEN: Saddam Hussein has breached the U.N. resolutions. He has breached the no-fly zone agreement. He has used weapons of mass destruction on his own people.
And so the discussion is very important. The American people already have come around on this. It is almost 70 percent of them approve some sort of military engagement in Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSEN: The question is whether they know the cost in terms of money and in terms of casualties. And that still has to be told to the American people.
NOEL: You are parroting everything the Bush administration has said
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSEN: No, that is not everything the Bush administration has said.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Peter Noel, go ahead. One at a time.
NOEL: This whole thing about stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, we haven't had any sort of evidence at all that Saddam Hussein has this kind of capabilities. Bring us the tapes. Bring us something. I will be first person to
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Peter, realistically, will we get tapes?
HIRSEN: Well, we have evidence that he used those weapons.
(CROSSTALK)
NOEL: Nic Robertson got tapes. And a lot of journalists can find things. And the CIA -- I hate to be one to quote James Traficant, but Congress should fire the CIA and hire CNN.
HIRSEN: Well, we have no weapons inspectors there now, Peter. And the reason we don't is because Saddam Hussein refused to comply with the resolutions. We also have Israeli intelligence reports and we have other reports that he has developed weapons and is developing weapons of mass destruction. And he used them, again, on his own people.
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSEN: So, the idea of regime change in Iraq is a sound one. It's a sound idea. But what I'm afraid of is that the American people's think that these last three wars -- Gulf War, Bosnia, and Afghanistan -- are norms for war. And they are not. So we have a great deal of deliberation and debate and constitutional processes to go through before we have an invasion.
NEVILLE: Hang on, guys. I have an e-mail I want to share with everybody.
It is from Dave in Arizona. It says: "The Bush administration hasn't provided the concrete proof needed to support an invasion of Iraq. No one is asking Bush to finish his father's quest."
NOEL: Exactly. Exactly, Arthel. Come on.
But I still believe there is something wrong. Why would tough, high-profile Republicans not support the current president? I believe -- look, it just came out just recently that we were on the side of Iraq, helping Iraq against Iran. And I believe that something is -- I believe right now that we are trying to talk Saddam, trying to save Bush's face by saying to him, "Listen, if you go quietly, we won't have to bomb you."
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Peter, hang on for me, because you guys were talking about those CNN tapes that have been uncovered by Nic Robertson.
And right now, we are going to John King, who is standing by at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, with reaction from the White House -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, good afternoon to you.
We had a chance just a few moments ago to discuss this, these CNN tapes, with White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer. The president is on his ranch nearby here in Crawford, Texas. Mr. Fleischer says the president has been well-briefed on the contents of these reports. He cannot say with certainty yet as to whether the president has actually watched any of our coverage, but Mr. Fleischer telling CNN that the president wants more briefings, and that, throughout the administration, they are paying very close attention.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: These tapes are just another troubling sign of the type of enemy we face, an enemy who would be willing to use these types of means, to practice killing animals for the purpose of killing people. And it's just one more troublesome sign about the type of enemy we face and why it's so important for us to pursue this war on terror, so people who do these things will not be successful.
KING: New information about al Qaeda's capabilities or just a visual affirmation?
FLEISCHER: Well, we have long known that al Qaeda has sought to acquire means of bringing the most damage they can, through a variety of nefarious methods, to people, and not only in the United States, but around the world.
And that is why it is so important that the coalition that has been assembled to fight the campaign on terror has a clear understanding of who our enemies are, the types of lengths to which they would go. And this is why is the president is so determined to fight terror, because of just the types of things that we are seeing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Mr. Fleischer also saying in that interview that this is another reason why the administration is so determined to keep al Qaeda from reconstituting itself in some other country.
He says the camps that we see in these tapes, the laboratories that we see in these tapes throughout Afghanistan mostly have been destroyed, are now denied access, if you will, to any al Qaeda remnants still in Afghanistan, and it is one of the reasons the president is so determined to keep al Qaeda from reconstituting itself somewhere else -- Ari Fleischer also saying that, at the appropriate time, intelligence officials throughout the administration would like to take a very close look at these tapes to see if they would be helpful in any ongoing investigations or in the ongoing military campaign to continue to look for al Qaeda cells around the world -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: John King, thank you very much for that information.
OK, listen, we are going to take a quick break right now, but when we return, we are going to take a peek inside the Lincoln Bedroom. Who is staying there?
Well, you stay right there and we will tell you after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Oh, come on, come on.
All right, welcome back, everybody.
Remember when all those Hollywood stars were making tracks to the White House and spending the night in the Lincoln Bedroom? Well, critics came down hard on then President Clinton, accusing him of renting out the people's house. So, who is sleeping in the famous bed chamber these days?
Well, the Bushes have had some famous overnight guests, like golfer Ben Crenshaw, singer Larry Gatlin, and Texas musician and author Kinky Friedman. They have also hosted a half-dozen big-money donors, Texas oilmen, and old friends and family, in all about 160 guests. The White House won't verify who got the Lincoln bed and who didn't.
But in the meantime, I have a call coming in from Montana.
And, Richard, I want to hear your thoughts before I go to my guests.
CALLER: Hello?
NEVILLE: Hi, Richard. You are live. Go ahead.
CALLER: Sorry.
Hey, my comment is, I think the American people is smarter than that. Of course there's money involved in people staying in the White House. And, second of all, who really cares? I really don't care. I mean, it doesn't -- I don't think it really makes a difference.
NEVILLE: Well, I don't know if you can hear, Richard, but the audience here, the studio audience, is clapping. I think they agree with you.
All right, Richard, thank you for calling in.
And I want to bring in James right now.
James, Richard says, who cares? Should we care?
HIRSEN: Well, I think you have to look at it. If there is a quid pro quo, we have to care, because we criticized Clinton for that.
But that being said, let's look at the context. We were looking at a White House where drug dealers and weapons dealers were sipping coffee or interns were going into the Oval Office, where the Lincoln Bedroom -- the allegations were that the Lincoln Bedroom was sold. And so the question is whether they are sold. (CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: James, can you hear me?
He can't hear me.
HIRSEN: Yes.
NEVILLE: You can hear me, right, James? Because I'm trying to talk.
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSEN: I didn't. I'm sorry.
NEVILLE: Listen, because you said something about who was standing or staying in the Lincoln Bedroom. What did you say about when President Clinton was in office? Who was staying there?
HIRSEN: Well, of course, we know much more exciting people, like Barbra Streisand and Tom Hanks and the Hollywood elite. Bush doesn't seem to get those.
NEVILLE: So, then, is that why it is a bigger deal when Clinton had people stay over there?
HIRSEN: No, it's a bigger deal because of the context. It is just one more nefarious act added to the drug dealers and weapons people that were sipping coffee and the interns that were visiting the Oval Office.
NEVILLE: That's what I thought you said -- drug dealers.
HIRSEN: It is just -- it is within the cumulative effect.
NOEL: Arthel.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Peter.
NOEL: Listen, look, I think that both administrations -- and I think Democrats and Republicans have used the Lincoln Bedroom as a whorehouse. I believe that. It's like a brothel.
But I don't believe that what Bush is doing is any different to what Clinton. James is talking about drug dealers and people who smoke. We don't know who has got into that bedroom from the Republicans. All kinds of people are going. There is a quid pro quo. The Bush administration is just hypocritical when they talk about the fact that Clinton brought his friends in.
I believe here that the Bush administration has a problem, a public-relations problem right now. All they need to do is bring the common man, invite him to sleep in that bedroom, and say, "This is also your house," and then he would get rid of this problem. But don't go around saying that you did something different to what the Clinton administration did. It's wrong. HIRSEN: Peter has a vivid imagination. He has a vivid imagination. He sees scandals everywhere. The fact is that the White House has...
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSEN: ... denied that there is any quid pro quo. And this is a normal activity of presidents, to invite friends to their home.
NOEL: How do you know that?
NEVILLE: OK ,well, seeing that you are guys yelling, I'm going to jump in there.
HIRSEN: Jump on in, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, James, for allowing me to jump in there.
Listen, Dave from Arizona sent me e-mail. But, Dave, I'm going to read your e-mail after the break, because I have to break right now.
We are going to talk more about this in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right, welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
We are talking about who gets to sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom. And my guests are Peter Noel and James Hirsen.
And, James, do you think we are not talking about this as much with Bush because maybe it is not as exciting or because there are other big stories out there?
HIRSEN: Oh, I think it's both.
I think it is not as exciting because Bush's lifestyle, shall we say, is not quite as exciting as the ex-president. But I will say this -- and Peter is right about this -- if in fact people are being rewarded the Lincoln Bedroom as a reward for giving money, then that's wrong. And that should be chastised. It should be investigated. That's wrong. That doesn't appear to be the case, though.
NOEL: Money is being exchanged to that. I mean, come on. That's where they go to make their backroom deals. It's a little whorehouse. We need to return some dignity to that.
HIRSEN: So you think Kinky Friedman is part of that?
NOEL: I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe they got kinky in there. I don't know.
NEVILLE: You know what? There is a joke there, but I can't go there. But, listen...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: No, no, I can't.
Maybe it's because Bush's lifestyle, as you pointed out, James, is not quite as exciting. Bush is reportedly in bed by 10:00, whereas Bill Clinton maybe had parties up until 1:00 in the morning.
HIRSEN: Of course, it's the whole aura around Bill Clinton as sort of this Elvis in the White House, and of course all the kind of nefarious activities that he was accused of.
NOEL: It's all about money.
HIRSEN: But you know what would make it more exciting, is if an invitation came for Arthel Neville to sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom.
NEVILLE: You know what? Listen, I have got to take an e-mail from Dave from Arizona, as promised.
Pop it up for me. Dave says: "Maybe we need to establish a new business called White House Hotels. The slogan could be: "Rooms With Journalist Flair." I don't know, David.
All right, that's it. Got to run.
Peter Noel, James Hirsen, thank you so much for being with me. Thanks for being good sports to both of you.
We're out of time.
HIRSEN: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: I'm Arthel Neville and this is TALKBACK LIVE. Join me again tomorrow, 3:00 Eastern.
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