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Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE
Q&A
Aired August 20, 2002 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This is a dirty war; a war based on greed.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): War in Chechnya.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to condemn an international terrorist. It's quite obvious, and the signature is the same. The explosions of the apartment buildings in Moscow and elsewhere in Russia, and in New York and Washington is a testimony. The signature is the same.
VERJEE: Russia calls it an anti-terrorist operation. Chechen rebels call it a war of liberation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This war will intensify. The Russians who come here will not leave alive. We'll see who's stronger.
VERJEE: A surge in rebel action and Russian deaths. More than 100 Russians killed in a helicopter crash near Grozny, the latest casualties as the war grinds on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I feel such grief that so many have been lost.
VERJEE: Hundreds of thousands of people homeless; Grozny lies in ruin. What's the answer to Chechnya's endless war?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Military action itself can never provide the lasting answers.
VERJEE: Now, Q&A.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Welcome to Q&A. I'm Zain Verjee.
Seemingly endless conflict in Chechnya. The second war there has now dragged on for almost three years with no apparent winner. The latest casualties, more than 100 Russians killed in a helicopter crash near Grozny.
Joining us now from Moscow is our bureau chief there, Jill Dougherty.
Jill, first of all, what's the latest information you have about that helicopter crash?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Well, the latest, Zain, is of course the casualty figures, which are 114 killed and 33 injured. Killed were 21 officers. And they even say that there was a child aboard who was traveling with its father back to the base.
As for the reasons, they still are operating on a couple of theories, but the one that seems to be emerging most strongly is that claim by the Chechen rebels, that they in fact shot down the helicopter.
The investigators found some evidence close to the scene, apparently in an apartment building not too far away. The Strela anti-aircraft missile launcher, that's a shoulder-fired missile. They found the launching gear to that, and believe that that may be connected with this crash.
Meanwhile, they also have found that there were irregularities in the way that that flight was organized, and the commander of the army aviation has been suspended temporarily and President Putin has declared a national day of mourning two days from today. In other words, Thursday.
VERJEE: If the leading theory is eventually proved a reality, Jill, it would be fairly embarrassing, I imagine, for the Russian army.
DOUGHERTY: Oh, it would be very disturbing, because, after all, there have been virtually daily people being killed, members of the Russian military being killed in small numbers -- small meaning 8, 10, 12, sometimes more. But this is an enormous number when you really think about it.
After all, remember the Kursk, the submarine that sank, was blown up, in the northern sea, in the Barents Sea, that created a big sensation. It was a terrible dilemma for President Putin a couple of years ago, and now we have almost the same number of people, 114, perishing in this terrible crash.
So it is under-cutting the claim by the Russian government that the war is essentially over and the rebels have been contained.
VERJEE: Jill, on the phone with us from Brussels is Roman Kahlilov. He's the head of political affairs of the Chechen Foreign Ministry and a spokesman for the Chechen Separatists Movement.
Mr. Kahlilov, did Chechen rebels shoot down that helicopter near Grozny?
ROMAN KAHLILOV, CHECHEN SEPARATIST SPOKESMAN: Yes, this helicopter has been brought down by the Chechen armed forces. It hasn't been the first, and it's not going to be the last one as long as Russians continue to commit atrocities against the Chechen people.
What I would like to make clear here -- it has nothing to do with the traditional understanding or any claim that it can be connected to terrorism. No. We are fighting for our legitimate rights and freedoms.
The Russians came to Chechnya to kill our people, to rape our women, to take our land.
VERJEE: So, I just want to clarify here, yes, you are saying that the Russians rebels -- sorry, the Chechen rebels, did shoot that helicopter down?
KAHLILOV: Yes, I am confirming it.
VERJEE: Do you believe that doing that is going to help your cause for Chechen independence? Do you really think it's going to get the Russians out?
KAHLILOV: When you have to -- when it's such a great scale of atrocities, in Chechnya, you have to do something to defend yourself.
And I would like to make it clear, we are not attacking civilian targets. We are attacking legitimate military targets.
Of course, this is not going to solve the problem itself. The problem can be solved only by political negotiations. And we have suggested to Russians time and again, stop senseless brutalities, stop this war, and let's talk peace. We're ready to do it at any time.
VERJEE: I want to address the issue of political negotiation in a moment, but Jill Dougherty, still in Moscow, Mr. Kahlilov saying this has nothing to do with terrorism. I'm wondering if you can shed light on whether there has been any link between international terrorism and Chechen rebels.
DOUGHERTY: It is believed by both the Russian government and actually the United States government does believe that there is some type of link between some of the what you would call terrorists fighting in Chechnya and international terrorism.
However, you have a home-grown group of people. These are commonly referred to as rebels, Chechen rebels, who want independence from Russia. They have been fighting for a long time, and so essentially, Zain, you have two different conflicts or two different groups sometimes melding together, but there are two tracks to this war.
VERJEE: Mr. Kahlilov, do the rebels have links to al Qaeda?
KAHLILOV: No. We not only do not have any links to al Qaeda, but we also never have.
Again and again and again, this struggle has nothing to do with any kind of international issues, such as terrorism or anything close to it. This is a struggle to achieve legitimate self-determination of the Chechen people on our historic land in order to protect legitimate rights and freedoms of our people.
VERJEE: But United States officials have said that Chechen rebel leaders are believed to have financial and other ties to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network, and the Russian Defense Min. Sergei Ivanov had claimed that a videotape had emerged showing bin Laden together with Hatob (ph), a Chechen rebel leader, as you know.
KAHLILOV: Let me say this, I'm afraid that when the United States State Dept. issues such like statements, it is relying on Russian sources, and Russian sources cannot be trusted at all.
Russia has created a number of different unbelievable stories in order to justify what they are doing in Chechnya, which is, of course, larger scale atrocities against not only normal military resistance, but mainly also against the civilian population of Chechnya.
There are a number of reports available by the Human Rights Watch, even by Russian human rights organizations, which made it absolutely clear that what is happening in Chechnya today is a collective punishment sponsored by the Russian state. Russia is trying to justify it.
VERJEE: OK. Would the rebels accept anything less than complete independence in Chechnya?
KAHLILOV: Independence is our goal, has been our goal, and will remain it, but we can discuss the ways how we achieve it.
VERJEE: Jill.
KAHLILOV: We can compromise on a mechanism to achieve it. After all, the international experience all around the world, we have seen what has been happening in Kosovo. We have seen what has been happening in East Timor. Why don't we try to do something similar, at least something similar for Chechnya too? After all, the atrocities that have been committed in Chechnya are much greater in comparison with Kosovo.
VERJEE: There are atrocities that have been committed on both sides. Chechen rebels have been accused also of being responsible for many atrocities.
Jill Dougherty, give us an idea of the extent of human rights abuses that both sides are believed to have committed in Chechnya.
DOUGHERTY: Well, to start with the Russia side, there have been, and the Russian government admits this has happened, in most recent times what are called mop-ups, sweeps, in which people, Chechens, villages are taken over by security, Russian security forces, often in masks.
Men have been taken away, in some cases tortured and killed, and in other cases their families had to basically buy them out from those soldiers.
Now the Russian government has said that they are taking steps to try to curtail that, and in some cases that has happened. But that would have to be the biggest issue right now in terms of alleged Russia atrocities.
Now, the atrocities from the other side, you would have to say that many of the same things have happened, unfortunately, in this conflict. There have been civilians who have been killed, tortured, et cetera, by both sides. And there have been some particularly videotapes taken by Chechen rebels of people having their heads cut off and being tortured to death.
So there are, obviously, on both sides, a lot of violence being committed.
VERJEE: I'd just like to say at this point, we invited someone from the Russian government to come on this show and speak to us, but they declined to appear.
Jill, is Chechnya a haven for organized crime and kidnapping, as the Russian government says it is?
DOUGHERTY: It still is. You'd have to say that. There is certainly less kidnapping than there was, say, a couple of years ago.
But just last week there was a worker for Doctors Without Borders, Medecins Sans Frontieres, who was kidnapped in neighboring Dagestan, unknown where he is. There has been a little up-tick in the kidnapping in that region.
And in terms of the, let's say, corruption and crime, it is filled with that problem, and that is one of the things that is fueling this war.
If you talk to many analysts who really look at this carefully, there is a lot of, you'd have to say, a shadow military economy that exists there. There are people on both sides, including in the Russian military, they say, who are selling arms, selling drugs, selling oil. After all, there is some oil in that area. They sell it on the side and make money, and that goes to fuel this war.
VERJEE: Jill, if there is no military solution to a war that's been dragging on in Chechnya, the second war for now, three years, what about a political settlement? Where does that stand?
DOUGHERTY: Well, both sides, if you can say that they're really both sides, because they're certainly the Russians, but when you get to the Chechen side it gets a little bit more complex, but both sides say we want a negotiated settlement.
The problem is, who do you negotiate with. And the Russians have said that the president, Mr. Aslan Maskhadov, who was elected the president of Chechnya and now remains the at least nominal president of Chechnya, really can't control the rebel forces.
So the Russians would say, we can't negotiate with him until he renounces violence. And also, it's dubious whether he can actually bring any of the rebels to the table and really stop this thing.
So both sides are saying yes, we want to talk, but the question is who is going to talk with whom, and will it actually end over the table. However, you have to say, Zain, that most people ultimately believe that the only way you can bring this to a half is by negotiations.
VERJEE: Jill Dougherty, stay with us. We'll continue our conversation with you on Q&A in just a moment.
There's been talk of building a new Chechen capital, because Grozny is considered beyond repair, the damage almost unfathomable.
How are the people who live there functioning? Find out when Q&A returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VERJEE: Welcome back to Q&A.
The numbers are not clear, but they're really high. Up to 300,000 refuges have fled the fighting in Chechnya. The humanitarian toll has been devastating.
Joining us from Boston is Anne Nivat. She's the Moscow correspondent for the French newspaper "Liberazione." And in Washington is Anatol Lieven. He's the senior associate for foreign and security policy in the Russia and Eurasia Center. He's also a senior associate for the Carnegie Endowment. Still with us in Moscow is our Mosco bureau chief Jill Dougherty.
Ann Nivat, give us a sense of the humanitarian crisis that's been caused by this war.
ANNE NIVAT, "LIBERAZIONE": Well, it's not even a humanitarian crisis. It's a disaster. I have no real words to explain to you what's going on in Chechnya.
I just returned from a four-week trip in Chechnya, and what I've seen there is far from being a situation normalizing, as the Russians claim it is.
What you have in Chechnya is hundreds of thousands of civilians, the poorest ones, the ones who could not even go to neighboring Ingushetiya, and those people have nothing to live on. So not only they have no job, there is really no life in Chechnya, but the most -- the biggest problem right now for those kind of people is to avoid the mopping up operations, the mopping up operations conducted by the Russian army during which any male between 11 and 40 can just simply disappear, being killed by the Russians.
VERJEE: Anatol Lieven, do you agree with that? Do you think that the biggest thing right now for these people is to avoid a mopping up operation, as Anne calls it, by the Russian army, and killing males between those ages?
ANATOL LIEVEN, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: Well, that is certainly a very serious threat to ordinary Chechen males, yes, without doubt.
VERJEE: How do you think people have survived in Chechnya, in this kind of environment? Or how are they surviving?
LIEVEN: Well, it's not as if Russia is committing a genocide here. I mean, this is a campaign of military repression, if you like, a sort of classic anti-partisan campaign. But Russia is not attempting to wipe out the population so, you know, these Russian raids have been fairly sporadic.
And the Chechens are also great survivors. They've had tremendous experiencing surviving adversity over the years. So people are, you know, trying to get on with their lives and, after all, the country remains a fertile one, so people can, to some extent, grow their own food, at least.
VERJEE: Jill, what's Russian public opinion on the war?
DOUGHERTY: It's very conflicted, to use that word. It's very complex. Because Russians, on the one hand, don't want the war to continue. At least most people would like it to be over.
However, they also -- there is a strain of Russian sentiment which is very anti-Chechen. They are often -- Russians most often do not trust Chechens. They consider them corrupt. And there is a feeling that this war is being fueled by this intractable problem, because of what the Chechens are like.
It's very complex, and it's very emotional, but I would have to say that there are two strains of thought. One would be that -- in fact we heard this today, on a radio show that I was listening to as we drove around the city. One would be, use the Israeli variant. Go in there and just get them.
The other part of Russian society would say, this is a disaster. We have to come to the table and work this out.
VERJEE: Anne, how do the Chechens feel?
NIVAT: Well, the Chechens feel awful. How could they feel otherwise. The Chechens -- I would disagree with Anatol Lieven on the point of the mopping up operations have been sporadic. No. They have not sporadic. They are constant, permanent.
The mopping up operation is the new -- Russia's way to conduct this war.
By the way, it has been three years now. Three years that the Russians are telling us they are conducting an anti-terrorist operation. I'm sorry, but so far I don't see the results of this anti-terrorist operation.
All of the top rebels are still free of the movement. They have not been arrested. Everyone in Chechnya more or less knows where they are, where they hide, so the Russian secretaries probably also know where they are. And still, the war is continuing.
VERJEE: Anatol, what do you make of the theory that the war is also continuing, simply because it's profitable for rebel groups to keep it going. I mean, there's oil smuggling going on, drugs, arms, kidnapping, as Jill had said earlier. So why end the war if everyone is making good cash?
LIEVEN: Well, there is an element of that. There's also an element of that on the Russian side. It's well-known that Russian commanders are making money, for example, out of the sale of oil, and indeed, in some cases, in the sale of weaponry.
But I think it would be an over-simplification to say that this war is really about personal profit. On the Chechen side, you also have a lot of people who are absolutely determined, in some cases to gain Chechen independence, in other cases to carry out a jihad against Russia.
And on the Russian side, you have a lot of people who are absolutely determined, one, that Chechnya will remain part of the Russian federation, and secondly that Chechnya will not once again become a base for terrorism and banditry against Russia.
VERJEE: So, what is it, Anatol, specifically, that the Chechen rebels want?
LIEVEN: Well, the Chechen rebels, most of them, want independence. I mean, in that sense, it's no different from the Kurdish radicals in Turkey, the Kashmiris, the Albanians in Kosovo. It's a very familiar problem. There's a bit of a country that wants to break away from it and the state concerned won't let them.
But there are groups among the Chechens, or within the Chechens, who are linked to international Islamic radicals, and over the years, they have become committed to a wider agenda of jihad.
VERJEE: Jill Dougherty, another complication in all of this is Georgia. Russia has accused Georgia of harboring Chechen rebels and allowing them to pass through with supplies and various reinforcements into Chechnya from the Pankisi Gorge. Do you think that there is a case to be made for that?
DOUGHERTY: Well, it would certainly appear that there are some type of rebels going over that border, coming back. It's very porous. It's up in the mountains, very, very hard to control.
And the Russians are saying the Georgians are incapable of stopping that penetration over the border. And, in fact, the Russians have been saying if you don't do it, we're going to do it. It's been a very, very tense situation over the past few weeks.
And it's very interesting timing here, because of course you have United States troops in Georgia, training the Georgian military, not going into that area that's called the Pankisi Gorge, but training the Georgians to take care of their own security issues.
So right there, you have the United States, Russia and Georgia and Chechnya, all in one place.
VERJEE: Anne, we just have a few moments left. Give us a sense of how organized the rebel groups are. I mean, who are the leaders? Who is the leader of the rebel groups? And how exactly do they operate and fund them? How are they organized?
NIVAT: Well, it's a guerilla war.
(CROSSTALK)
VERJEE: Anne.
NIVAT: They are indeed very well organized.
DOUGHERTY: Sorry.
VERJEE: Go ahead, Anne.
NIVAT: Can you hear me?
VERJEE: We just have a few seconds left. Go, Anne.
NIVAT: Yes, the Chechen rebels are very well organized. And Maskhadov, the president, he is gaining more authority now than he was two yeas ago, because after three years he is the last one, he's still there, and he's ready to negotiate. He has made that clear, many times. So now it's up to the Russians to go for peace talks.
VERJEE: Anne Nivat, Anatol Lieven, and our Moscow bureau chief, Jill Dougherty, thanks a lot for being on Q&A.
That's Q&A for now. Make sure you join us at 19:00 GMT for our special report and Q&A will be back at the same time tomorrow.
Our special report, by the way, looks at the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.
Thank you so much for joining us.
END
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