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North Carolina Students Outraged by Course on Koran; University of Indiana Ranked Top Party School; Kids Want Out of Lesbian Household

Aired August 20, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
OK, students have returned to college campuses, and a book about the Koran was discussed at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, despite earlier protests. Now, the university had required all incoming freshmen and transfer students to read, "Approaching the Qur'an: The Early Revelations."

Now, those who refused had to put their objections in writing. Some students did object, and with help from the Family Policy Network, asked a court to stop campus discussions of the book. We'll get to those objections in a moment.

And then, stay tuned, as we focus on another aspect of college life, party time, and the nation's top 10 party schools.

And here is something you will be talking about a little bit later today, a couple of teens tried to divorce their mom, saying they don't like her gay lifestyle. We'll get to that in a bit.

But right now, let's start with the teaching about Islam and the Koran in college.

Our guests today are Nolan Beall, a student at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill -- hey, Nolan.

NOLAN BEALL, STUDENT, UNC-CHAPEL HILL: Hi, how are you?

NEVILLE: I'm good. All right. Phil Boyum -- am I saying that right?

PHIL BOYUM, STUDENT, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS: That's correct.

NEVILLE: Who happens to be a student at the best university around. That would be the University of Texas.

BOYUM: You said it.

NEVILLE: OK, everybody, that's my alma mater. I'm going to go on record letting you guys know that. Phil is also the host of the community talk show called "Right On" on KBRX-Radio. And Mariyam Jamila, a student at Auburn University in Alabama -- hi, Mariyam. MARIYAM JAMILA, STUDENT, AUBURN UNIVERSITY: Hey, how are you?

NEVILLE: I'm glad to have you. I'm great.

JAMILA: Thanks. It's a pleasure.

NEVILLE: Oh, good! And Gabriel Movsesyan -- is that right?

GABRIEL MOVSESYAN, STUDENT, NYU: Yes, it is.

NEVILLE: All right, a student at the New York University, and host of "Ear Shot," (ph) a radio talk show on that college campus.

Now, the students are here to represent their own views. They are not those of the universities. I want to let you know that.

And I'm going to ask all of you this question. Nolan, I'm going to start with you first.

BEALL: OK.

NEVILLE: Do you have a problem with the required reading mandate?

BEALL: No, I don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, I actually support the summer reading program and this year's selection, the interpretations of the Koran. So I don't personally have any issues with it.

NEVILLE: Phil, how do you see it?

BOYUM: Well, I don't have any personal issues with it myself. However, I do feel that the administration could have made a better choice than to pick the Koran, especially in the environment we're in now with the Pledge of Allegiance and prayers in schools. I really think they could have chosen a better book, such as maybe a history of the Middle East or a book on the politics and the economics of the Middle East, as opposed to signaling out the religious tone of Islam.

NEVILLE: Interesting. Mariyam.

JAMILA: Well, I have to agree with both of them on different levels. I don't have any problem with it either. I think on an academic level, it's quite justified considering the times. But also, I think they could have chosen a different approach, like exploring the cultures of these Islamic countries and looking into that instead of just the Koran.

NEVILLE: And, Gabriel.

MOVSESYAN: Well, in many ways, the history of the Middle East, if you were to analyze a history of the Middle East book is an annotation of the Koran. So it's a fair enough selection for incoming students.

One thing that I have to say I had a problem with as a college student is the forcing of students who wanted to be exempted to write an essay instead. It seems very ostracizing and unfair to students who didn't want to take part in it.

NEVILLE: And then also, it sort of takes away their right, if they have a right to choose whether or not -- if this is truly optional, then suddenly it's not quite optional if you are saying -- if you are told, well, if you don't read this, you need to write a paper about why you don't want to read this.

BEALL: Well, I would like to interject that one of the results of the protests was that all students had to write a one-page response paper, both those who did read the book and those who chose not to. So that kind of balanced things back out in terms of, you know, the amount of work that you were expected to do for this requirement.

And I think that everyone's opinion about this being -- about there maybe being a more appropriate selection are valid, but I do agree with the point that the study of Muslim culture from a historical perspective and from a cultural perspective is very much a key and an insight in some Mideast culture and Arabic culture and South Asian culture.

NEVILLE: But based on all of your comments, it seems that you all agree that there definitely needs to be some education here regarding Muslim culture, Islam, Islamic religion, the Islamic faith, the Middle East in general.

BEALL: Absolutely, yes.

JAMILA: Yes, I have to agree with that, because -- I'm sorry -- am I interrupting someone?

NEVILLE: No, go -- you know what? Mariyam, the beauty about this show, you can go ahead and jump in there any time you'd like.

JAMILA: OK, all right. Because I have no clue what's going on. I'm just looking into the camera.

But, yes, I just think it's extremely important, because whenever you do you turn on the television, you do find things concerning Islam, whether it be terrorist attacks or there be efforts, whatever it is, there is that word Islam and Muslim in it. And America just happens not to know a great deal about them, and they are fearful because of that, I think. And education of this sort, efforts of this sort would help relieve that anxiety and that tension that they feel, because they don't know what they are up against.

NEVILLE: Mariyam, help me -- go ahead, go ahead.

BOYUM: I was just going to say, but at the same time, this is a state school and ultimately funded by the federal government. So to force individuals to study a particular religion is just, you know, not something that, again, a state school should be doing. If you want to study the Middle East, and my personal opinion is, yes, we should study the Middle East and its culture and its histories and its people, but to force individuals to do that, especially in an incoming freshman class like that...

NEVILLE: Yes, but you know what, though, Phil? Let me jump in here...

BOYUM: ... it's not a good idea.

NEVILLE: Phil, but here is the problem, OK. The whole idea about going to college is to go ahead and broaden your information base. And quite frankly, considering the times in which we live, this is some information that we need, and that's what college is there for. So..

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

NEVILLE: And think about it, there are many reading requirements that you have...

JAMILA: Exactly.

NEVILLE: ... and a lot of us don't like it. Well, I don't want to read this book...

JAMILA: That's exactly what I was going to say.

NEVILLE: ... I mean -- go ahead.

JAMILA: That was exactly what I was going to point out that there are many readings that we are required to do in college, and we do it, you know, without questions asked. And this happens to be a very relevant subject. And so, I think it's justified in that sense.

NEVILLE: Hang on, guys...

MOVSESYAN: I just...

NEVILLE: Go ahead. Who is that, Gabriel? Go ahead.

MOVSESYAN: Yes. I just wanted to add in many cases, religious texts are often a staple of college reading lists as well, whether in classes or for incoming administrations as a whole. So it's nothing different at all.

BOYUM: And there is nothing wrong with that in a specific class that would address those topics. But in a situation like this, where you're giving one single book to the entire incoming freshmen class, is this the book that is the most appropriate for studying the Middle East?

NEVILLE: And Mariyam, I want to...

BOYUM: I don't think it is.

NEVILLE: ... I want to ask you, because I understand that the 35 verses chosen as the required reading materials depict the Islamic faith as being very peaceful. I want to ask you, is that an accurate portrayal? And is it enough to just read 35 verses? JAMILA: Well, to understand about Islam, no, it's not enough. And I have heard that objection. But also, have you to take into consideration, and this is what the author said himself, is that the various verses that are being under -- that are being questioned currently, there are a lot of complexities to it. And you really have to look deeper into it.

And if you were to do that -- if you were to do that, then you would you need a full-fledged course, and that would be something totally different from what they are currently doing right now.

BEALL: Right. I agree with that wholeheartedly, and I don't think that this reading assignment was meant to be an exhaustive study of Islam, merely an introduction to the culture of that part of the world and to the culture...

NEVILLE: OK, but here is the deal. If you have a couple people protesting required reading, how do you think they would respond to, if they were -- if this course was mandatory, some sort of course on the Middle East?

BEALL: Well, I think that's two totally different things. You can't require someone, say, include something within their course load. But you can say, OK, this is an assignment. And I think when you use the word "force," that has a lot of connotations...

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

BEALL: ... that aren't exactly there. No one was pressured or coerced into reading this book. It was given out as an assignment, and an alternative assignment was given as well. If people chose not to read it, they had that right from the beginning.

NEVILLE: And I have Mike here in the audience who wants to jump in.

JAMILA: May I also make...

NEVILLE: Hang on for me, Mariyam.

JAMILA: Yes.

NEVILLE: I've got Mike in the audience who wants to speak out.

JAMILA: Sure.

MIKE: Just first of all, to piggyback a little bit on what he was saying there in terms of whether this was optional or mandatory. We all know, as you were saying earlier, there are many classes in college we didn't want to take. I wasn't especially great in math when I was...

NEVILLE: You weren't?

MIKE: ... my professor, you know, I really don't want to take this calculus test. I don't really like this, give me something else. We didn't have that option.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that a lot of this stems from intolerance. It stems from people having a fear of the unknown. Because most of this country predominantly is Christian, we have this inbred fear that the Muslims are different, they are terrorists. The media plays into this, unfortunately. I think the most disturbing comment I heard in this story was from one of these so-called conservative groups, these right-winged groups.

NEVILLE: Hang on for me, Mike. I've got to take a break right now. And thanks for speaking out, by the way.

Listen, I want to hear from you more about this. So if you want to get in on this conversation, go ahead and give me a call at 1-800- 310-4CNN, or, of course, you can e-mail, talkback@cnn.com.

More on this topic in a moment -- TALKBACK LIVE after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS)

NEVILLE: There is Dave in Arizona writing, "and all schools have prerequisites, deal with it."

Listen, welcome back, everybody.

We are talking about -- to a group of college students regarding the teaching of Islam at the universities, in particular the University of North Carolina. It was required reading for freshmen coming in this year, as well as transfer students.

And Sarah (ph) has a lot to say about this.

SARAH: I go to a public university. I'm an instructor there. And we are told that there is an extreme separation between church and state. I believe that our country should be open-minded, but the reading of the Koran is a religion.

If you're going to talk about the Koran being associated to politics, you need to talk about politics. Don't hide behind the fact that the Koran will make people open-minded, when you are really trying to get people to discuss the political situation in the Middle East. Have the students discuss the political situation...

NEVILLE: Do you really think that this is a cover-up for that? Come on, why don't they just say, we'll talk about the politics? Nobody is afraid to do that.

SARAH: Because politics is dangerous, and apparently so is religion, or this wouldn't be an issue. It wouldn't be on TALKBACK LIVE now. It wouldn't have ended up in the courts.

BEALL: And I would like to clarify that the discussion around this reading -- and I would also like to clarify that the reading itself is not of the Koran, but of a book studying the Koran. NEVILLE: That's right.

JAMILA: Right.

BEALL: And so, it's not teaching a religion or teaching adherence to a religion. It's merely teaching about religion.

And from my experience in talking with first-year students -- I, myself, am not a first-year student, and it wasn't required reading for me. But those students said that the conversations surrounding this reading did not have to do with the politics of it. And that, you know, the conversation eventually extends there. But primarily in the discussion groups, they were talking from a cultural and a historical perspective, and talking about the Koran as a document and as a piece of literature.

And I think the paths are clear of where this would -- the implications for on a broader political scale. And you are right, it is messy, and it is things that we need to talk about. But I don't think this is being offered as a veneer to that discussion. I think it's a nice segue into it.

JAMILA: Can I...

MOVSESYAN: I agree. I think it's much more of an issue of academic freedom than any sort of political correctness or trying to make up the particular interest groups. It's simply an annotated book of quotations from the Koran that is only going to lead to further discussion among students and administration.

NEVILLE: Which is the idea.

Mariyam, what are you trying to say there?

JAMILA: Well, I was trying to say that isn't it also a fact that, you know, someone's religion is their lifestyle? It's what they choose to be. And if you want to understand people, you have to understand what they believe in as well, and not necessarily everything. But if you don't even have a door opening into what they believe in and what they are after, then it's very difficult for you to be open-minded as well to that person.

I mean, I go on campus at Auburn University wearing a hijab. This is called a hijab. And I occasionally get stares. I occasionally get people looking at me in a very hateful manner sometimes. And I think it's due to that very fact that they don't know what I believe in and why I choose to do what I do. And it would be so very helpful if they were introduced to it.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have a phone call coming in from New York right now. Alison (ph), go ahead. What do you have on your mind today?

ALISON: Hi, Arthel. I just wanted to actually say that I don't think it's fair that the students have to study this book, because, like the audience member just said, we do have separation of church and state. And you know, if it's going to be that way, then you need to start -- if you want to teach tolerance, you should start early. And you know, it's not fair. We can't have praying in schools. We can't teach Christianity. We have to separate Catholicism. We have to say the Koran -- I really don't think it's fair.

NEVILLE: Thanks, Alison (ph).

MOVSESYAN: Once again, this is totally not a matter of public separation of church and state.

JAMILA: Yes.

MOVSESYAN: Public universities have numerous courses that involve the Bible as text, other religious texts involved in the courses and for students.

BOYUM: Yes, but -- but those are courses you have the option to take, but you are not forced to take. This...

(CROSSTALK)

MOVSESYAN: Well, once again, there's an option here to read the book or to not read the book as well.

JAMILA: No, may I...

BOYUM: It was originally a required -- it was required reading. It was not originally optional. It was required, but only due to...

MOVSESYAN: Well, fair enough. Students -- enough students protested, and they didn't like to read the book.

NEVILLE: And now it's optional.

JAMILA: Well, can I also say...

MOVSESYAN: And you know what? That's a tragedy in and of itself that students are that vociferous against reading just one simple text. It's really just an annotation collection of quotes.

JAMILA: Can I...

BOYUM: However, had this have been an annotated...

NEVILLE: OK, listen, guys, I'm going to jump in here, because I have to take a break right now.

We are going to take change topics after the break. We're going to talk about partying. Party time, is it on your college campus? Which school tops "The Princeton Review's" party school list this year? Here are your choices. We'll have the answer when we come back. Think about this, guys. Do you see your school in there?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS) (BUSINESS NEWS BREAK)

NEVILLE: This is what I'm talking about. This is the love that I need to feel from you people. Do you understand that, Thomas (ph)?

All right, welcome back, everybody. We are getting this energy thing happening in here.

Listen, every college and university wants to be No. 1 at something, right? But No. 1, the party school?

Well, before the break, we asked you to you guess which school made it to the head of the class in this year's "Princeton Review." Well, this year it is Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana.

But there is more, Clemson University was No. 2, followed by the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Penn State and the University of Florida. Now, rounding out the top 10, the State University of New York at Buffalo, the University of New Hampshire, the University of Colorado at Boulder, Florida State University, and at No. 10, the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

OK, Phil, you're up first on this one. The party school designation now is based on student reports on alcohol and marijuana use, the amount of time spent studying outside of class, and the popularity of fraternity and sororities on campus.

Is that a fair way to measure party schools, Phil?

BOYUM: Well, I think asking the students, I don't know how you can get a much better way than that. I did notice one thing, though, that all of those schools are in small towns. So maybe if there was -- maybe if there was more to do in those towns, they wouldn't be partying so much. I don't know.

NEVILLE: OK, Phil, now you know I went to your school, right? That's my alma mater. But, Phil, be careful what you say, because we were No. 11 on that list, OK?

BOYUM: Well, you know, we're trying to get our ranking up, you know.

NEVILLE: Not in that way, come on! Not in that way.

BOYUM: You're right, you're right.

NEVILLE: Hey, listen...

BOYUM: It must be 6th Street, huh?

NEVILLE: Exactly, exactly. You know what, but here's the question, though: If a school is listed as a party school, does that mean you can't get an education there?

BOYUM: No, I mean, especially at the University of Texas, if you look at the "U.S. News and World" rankings, they are very good. I mean, I'm in the business school. In the program I am in, we are ranked No. 3 in the country behind MIT and Carnegie Mellon. And so, I mean, there are programs at these schools that are exceptional. I know for a fact that...

NEVILLE: And our journalism department is great there, too.

BOYUM: Journalism is excellent. And I know at the University of Indiana, the music program is tremendous. So, yes, you need to be careful which degree plans you go to at these schools, but there is definitely exceptional learning available at these schools.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have Dan here, who is from Florida. He wants - I think he has something interesting to say on this one -- Dan.

DAN: Yes, I think when it comes down to it, you know, a degree is a degree. You still have your education, you know, whether or not it's a party school. So if I see this school has a higher rating, I may seriously consider going there...

NEVILLE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You are telling me if the school has a higher party rating, you are going to the school?

DAN: It's an incentive. It's something to think about, because at the end, I'm still going to have that piece of paper. But if I had a blast getting it -- hey.

NEVILLE: OK, panel -- panel -- all right.

JAMILA: Can I put in a comment?

NEVILLE: Yes, you may. Go right ahead, Mariyam.

JAMILA: Well, the first thing that came to my mind when I heard it was that -- it was like a vision of all of these smiles of smug parents thinking to themselves, I am not sending my kid to that college...

NEVILLE: Exactly.

JAMILA: ... because it's at the top of the list. So that's what I was thinking the first thing.

NEVILLE: Well, I have a mom standing here, Leslie (ph) from Canada. What do you say, Leslie (ph)?

LESLIE: Dan, I say who cares? Like really, who on earth would take the time to do a report like that? And if my boys in university are going to party, they are going to party whether they are at IU, in Florida State or at a convent. And so basically, I figure, why -- you know, why do something like this and waste everybody's time and effort on this?

NEVILLE: Hey, because, Nolan, isn't it all about individual discipline anyway? BEALL: Well, that -- I mean, that's always been my interpretation of what the university experience should be. And that's not to say that I, myself, have been immune to that party culture of college.

But I think that, you know, if you view college as something you go into and come out of with a piece of paper, that that allows you, you know, time to party, and you don't view it as a place where personal growth or, you know, experience or perspective building happens, that that might, you know, allow you some insight into what your experience has ahead of you.

And I agree with the point that there are much better things that the "Princeton Review" could be doing with their time and with their capacities than studying, you know, who parties the most.

NEVILLE: OK.

MOVSESYAN: I think the survey is more of a gag thing than anything else. I think the most unfortunate thing that what happens is that when these surveys -- the results are released, parties result because of it. Students like to party it up and justify their ranking. And then the sad thing is that a lot of times, the administrations tend to crack down on parties, try to make it hard for more students to be able to enjoy themselves in different ways.

So it's kind of unfortunate for students in that sense, but otherwise, I think it's nothing to be taken all that seriously.

NEVILLE: OK...

BOYUM: What I find...

NEVILLE: Go ahead, quickly, it's your last comment. Go ahead.

BOYUM: I was just going to say what I find interesting is that, you know, it used to be "Playboy" that used to do the party school rankings. And for "Princeton Review," a test prep place to do this kind of ranking, it seems to me that it's tarnishing their own reputation. Maybe they should have stayed away from it, especially considering they have 63 other surveys on other topics.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have to go here. I just want to let you know that the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, by the way, is on this list as well...

BEALL: I figured.

NEVILLE: ... in the top 20. So is NYU, by the way.

OK, Nolan, Gabriel, Mariyam, and Phil, listen, I really enjoyed talking to you. We are going to have more college students on this program. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much for being here.

(CROSSTALK) NEVILLE: And up next: Two teens, OK, two teenage girls take their mother to court, saying they don't approve of her gay lifestyle. Meet their attorney and find out if children have a legal leg to stand on when they don't like mom or dad's living arrangements.

You can talk about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: All righty, everybody. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

All right, now, could your kids take you to court because they don't like your lifestyle? Two Texas teens sued their mom, saying her lesbian affairs clashed with their religious beliefs. The girls didn't want to live with their mother anymore and asked to be emancipated.

Here to talk about the case: our family law attorney, Gloria Allred.

Hi, Gloria.

GLORIA ALLRED, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Hi, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Nice to see you.

ALLRED: You, too.

NEVILLE: And David Sloan. He is the attorney for the girls who object to their mother's lifestyle, their lesbian lifestyle.

Hello, Mr. Sloan. How are you?

DAVID SLOAN, ATTORNEY FOR DAUGHTERS: I'm fine. How are you?

NEVILLE: All right, I'm great.

You are up first, Mr. Sloan.

These girls went to court. They wanted to be separated from their mom. Tell us why.

SLOAN: Well, I don't necessarily think they ever wanted to be separated from their mom. They were tired of the living conditions in the home, thought there needed to be some changes. And the only way they felt to get those changes accomplished was by moving out. And we got things done.

NEVILLE: So, the girls, in essence, I understand that they left home. They ran away, however you want to put it, July 4 and went to live with their aunt and uncle.

SLOAN: They went to live with their aunt and uncle. We can put it that way.

NEVILLE: OK, so what exactly was the problem? Was their mother parading women in and out of the house all the time? What was the problem?

SLOAN: Well, I wasn't there, but talking to the girls, that there was enough of a little bit of promiscuity to the mother's lifestyle that it really bothered them as teenage girls. And it really bothered them to think of their mom in those kind of relationships, as these are young women...

NEVILLE: Sixteen and 17 years old.

SLOAN: Sixteen, 17 years old, intelligent young women who are trying to figure out who they are for themselves. And it was just a very difficult situation.

NEVILLE: So, Mr. Sloan, let me ask you this. Is it your impression that perhaps, if the mother were having heterosexual relationships, would the girls have a problem with that?

SLOAN: I think it would have been the same issue. It was more the nature of the lifestyle than the particular sexuality of the relationships, although the sexuality did have a big impact on these girls. Again, these are teenagers. Those are huge issues with these kids.

NEVILLE: OK, now, hang on, Gloria. I know you are standing there. I want to get a little bit more from Mr. Sloan, because, now, the mom says that she wasn't promiscuous; in fact, she only had three lesbian affairs over an 8-year period. Child protective services found that there was no abuse or neglect there. So, again, was this suit simply about her being gay?

SLOAN: That is not the way I understood it. And that is not the way we approached it. We never approached it as a gay-straight issue. We approached it as a home-life issue. And that is what it was. And that is what the court papers will back up. And those are the issues that we worked through and negotiated through during court yesterday.

NEVILLE: OK, so there is an agreement on the table. Tell us what it is, Mr. Sloan.

SLOAN: The basic agreement is, mother has agreed that she will refrain from her lifestyle, at least as it relates to the home environment; if she is going to be involved in relationships, that they will be done away from the home, and the girls don't have to be subject to seeing what's going on.

And the girls will agree to stop going to the church they were going to, although mom wants them in a Christian church. She believes in a Christian environment. And so we are going to...

NEVILLE: But the reason why they are not going to that church, that particular church, anymore, because the mother feels that that church was brainwashing them into kind of rebelling against their mother and her lifestyle, saying that they were going to go to -- the mother is going to hell because she's gay, so maybe they thought they might go to hell because they live in the house with the mother. SLOAN: I think there's huge issues with respect to the way the church approached this with the girls, from the mother's perspective. And so we agreed that, given that that would cause more conflict in the home, which is what we were trying to resolve -- the family courts are just trying to resolve conflict in the home, not trying to make a decision over moral choices here.

NEVILLE: OK, hang on.

SLOAN: And so that is what we were trying to do.

NEVILLE: OK, Mr. Sloan, hang on.

Gloria, I'm going to get to you.

Sue, I know you are calling in from Vermont. If you can hold on for me, I have got to get to Gloria Allred right now, because, Gloria, here is the question I have for you. So, what if this mother decides that she just wants to bring a girlfriend, I mean a pal, over to the house? Do the kids suddenly say: "OK, you can't do that. That is against the rules"?

ALLRED: Well, the question is, who is in charge here?

And the United States Supreme Court has decided that parental rights are paramount, unless, of course, Arthel, there is abandonment or neglect or abuse. And that could be physical or emotional.

I haven't heard of any of those existing in this case. Just because children are offended by who a parent brings into a home doesn't mean that a state should intervene and decide whether a parent can bring in one friend or two friends or three friends. I think that is wrong.

Now, I'm glad that there is a settlement in this case and that they have been able to work it out. And they are all going to live together, hopefully happily ever after, or at least until the children are 18. But it does concern me the notion that a state should intervene and decide how many friends a parent can have.

NEVILLE: OK, hang on. I have got Michelle here from Florida.

MICHELLE: First of all, it is not a lifestyle. It is a life. And I think it is pretty sad that the kids are dictating how the mother should be living her life. What we need remember is, they are children and they still have a lot of growing up to do. And I don't think that the mother is going to be that influential to influence her kids that much to make them: "Oh, well, mom is gay, so I'm going to be gay."

They have the right to make their own choices. If they don't agree, that is one thing. But I don't think it is right for them to dictate what goes on in the house.

NEVILLE: I understand what you are saying, but they are children, so they live under the mother's home. But, at the same time, they are people with rights and feelings.

So, let me ask you this. Now, if she is only having -- I mean, if even if she were heterosexual, people will tell you, people who are divorced, they can't bring too many men into the house over their children, be it girls or boys. But this woman is saying that she hasn't been promiscuous. So you are OK with that.

MICHELLE: See, that is the thing, is that she hasn't been bringing many women in the house, so it's not like she is just -- there's different women traipsing in there every single night. I think she is doing it with respect. I think the kids are just having a hard time dealing with this. But it is her life.

NEVILLE: OK, listen.

ALLRED: Yes, Arthel, and the point is that the children's protective services did an investigation and reportedly found that there was no sexually inappropriate behavior in front of the children.

NEVILLE: That's correct.

ALLRED: And that, I think, is key.

And, again -- and your question before, if a heterosexual single parent brings in her dates into the home, but doesn't do anything sexually inappropriate in front of the children, then children need to -- they need to relate to that and they need to maybe get some counseling about it. But they shouldn't be able to stop it.

NEVILLE: OK, there is my music, which means I have to take a break.

Sue from Vermont, I know you are standing by. Mr. Sloan wants to get in. I have got a guy back there. This is exciting. I love this topic.

Listen, I want to hear from more of you as well. So go ahead and get those phones going. Or you can e-mail me.

TALKBACK LIVE continues on this very topic after this break. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE: Two girls try to divorce their mother, saying they don't want to be exposed to her lesbian lovers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My agreement is not to show any type of homosexual lifestyle in front of my kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: Should children have legal say-so over their parents' sex life? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

We're talking about two girls who sued their mother because they don't like her lesbian lifestyle.

And I want to start with you, Mary. Stand up tell me what you think.

MARY: Yes.

I was wondering, whatever happened to old-fashioned respect for your parents? She does not -- those girls do not want their mother to dictate to them how to live their lives. How can they do the same to their mother? They are just reversing it on their mother. How do they have the right to do that?

NEVILLE: And you mentioned you were wondering, how did they know to go ahead and sue their mother?

MARY: How did they ever say, "We have to sue about this"? Whatever happened to respect for their mother?

SLOAN: I would like to address that.

I think the girls very much respect their mother. And the girls very much love their mother. And that is why we were able to resolve this. The girls never tried to dictate mom's life. And basically what they said and what her -- the conversation, I understand, at the parting moment was, "Girls, if you believe that strongly in what you believe in, then you need to leave."

And the girls said, "Then we're leaving." And they left. And so they weren't trying to dictate mom. They said, "Mom, you can do whatever you want."

And mom basically said, "Girls you can do whatever you want." But what that put us into is, these girls were in limbo. They had no legal rights at that point because they were minorities. And they didn't have a mother looking after them. And their aunt and uncle, who they moved in with, didn't have any legal capacity.

So what we went -- all we tried to do, instead of describe this as a divorce, we went in to say, look, these girls need some legal capacity. After four or six weeks, mom started rethinking her position and said, "Let's get this thing resolved." And we all worked together to get it resolved.

NEVILLE: Yes, because the mother said, "Listen, relationships will come and go, but these are my daughters and I want them in my life."

SLOAN: That's exactly right.

NEVILLE: Sue from Vermont, what do you have to say about this? CALLER: Well, I feel this is clearly another example of kids dictating parental behavior, using the gay lifestyle because it's a hot-button issue. I think the attorney jumped on it because it was a hot-button issue. And I feel that it was very wrong of both the kids and the attorney, the attorney playing in with the kids, to bring this lawsuit.

And I don't feel that kids should be dictating parental behavior, and that the mother having to change her lifestyle, that was completely and utterly wrong.

NEVILLE: Thank you, Sue, for calling in.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Gloria.

ALLRED: And may I say that the reports are that the mother denies telling the children that they had to leave if they didn't like it or should leave if they didn't like it.

Having said that, I have to ask, if it is true that there is a church that told these young women that if they stayed there, they would go to hell and that their mother would go to hell, then I think that that church really needs to rethink what it is saying, if it is trying to create divisions between children and their parents. I thought that that kind of church would promote family values and not try to divide families over something like this.

NEVILLE: OK, I have Matthew from Georgia.

MATTHEW: I just think it's foolish that the kids don't respect their parents. As long as the mother is not forcing her lesbianism -- her daughters to become that, then why leave? First of all, they are 16 and 17, so they only have another year anyway.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I find interesting is, Mr. Sloan mentioned that she wanted her kids to be in a Christian church. Any Christian church is going to teach that homosexual values are wrong.

NEVILLE: Listen, I have an e-mail coming in that I'm going to share with you after the break. I have got to take a break right now.

We're going to hear more from you after this. So don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. And we'll see you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.

We're talking about two teenagers in Texas who want their mom to change her lesbian ways.

Ruth, what do you say? RUTH: I just don't understand. The lawyer said that they love their mother very much and they respect their mother. But how is that showing respect and love for your mother, when you are going to bring it to a lawsuit?

And also, too, I just think it is because she is a lesbian. That is why it is getting so much attention for it, like -- I just think it is ridiculous that it has to come to this.

NEVILLE: Scott in New York, you are on telephone. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

CALLER: Well, to me, it doesn't sound like the children are trying to dictate to mom what she should be doing. They feel uncomfortable in this case with her lifestyle, either because of the teachings of the church or because they simply feel uncomfortable.

And I think, given the age of the children, they don't have a leg to stand on. If they were 18, they would just move out. But here they are being told that the lifestyle is not good or they simply don't want to be there, and the only recourse they have is to say, "We need to get out of here." And I think that's...

ALLRED: Arthel, that is not the only recourse they have. You know what they could have done? They could have done what a lot of young people do in many, many cities throughout this country. And that is, they could contact an organization called Parents and Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays.

And that organization, which has both lesbian people and gay people and heterosexual people in it, could help them to understand their concerns and their fears and give them some counseling. And that would be something they could do, rather than go to the extreme of either running away or leaving because they are offended by their mom's friends.

SLOAN: And, again, I think we need to point out and make it clear that these girls didn't run off and file a lawsuit. They were simply put in a position where they had no legal rights and we were trying to establish some legal rights for them.

In the process, we resolved those issues. And I absolutely agree with the last comment about the counseling. And that is the one thing that has happened through this process, is, we have brought the girls and the mother together through counseling.

NEVILLE: Which is good.

SLOAN: And now people are starting to see the other side of the issues.

NEVILLE: That's right.

SLOAN: And we can work them through.

But sometimes, in family relationships or any other relationships, as people know, lines get drawn. People make stands on their ground. They say, "I'm not budging from this position." And that is what we had here. We had a strong-willed mother and two strong-willed daughters. And it took some intervention...

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: You know what I'm going to do? I have to take a break.

Before we go to the break, let me show you this e-mail, OK?

Pop it up for me, guys.

Bob in Illinois says: "Good for these girls. It's about time people start fighting back. The values of the majority have been stepped on and disregarded long enough."

TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.

I want to give Alegra (ph) a chance to stand up and speak out.

ALEGRA: I was in a similar situation. And I just feel like, that if they look past through the person sleeping within their bedroom and look at the person for who they are, then they will learn to love her. They need to love their mother no matter what she does in her bedroom.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

Listen, everybody. Thank you so much for watching. We are out of time.

Gloria Allred, David Sloan, thank you very much for being here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

I will be back again tomorrow. I'm Arthel Neville. That will be 3:00 Eastern tomorrow, with more TALKBACK LIVE.

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