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CNN Talkback Live
Free-for-All Friday
Aired August 23, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(APPLAUSE)
ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN ANCHOR: I've got to tell you something: that is just excellent -- most excellent.
OK, everybody, hello, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. And can you tell? It's Free-for-all Friday!
OK, yes, Sonia (ph) is like, "Yeah!"
OK, here is the first question: Did God create man, or did man evolve? That's the heart of a debate going on in a Georgia school district this week. We'll start with that in a minute.
Then, stay tuned for an update on two shock jocks in shock after the plug is pulled on their radio show.
And, do you want to watch a TV show some say shows the sensitive side of Adolf Hitler?
OK, let's meet our free-for-all panel.
Mike Malloy is a nationally syndicated radio talk show host on the i.e. America Radio Network. He is also a contributing editor to National Public Radio.
Hey, Mike, how are you doing?
MIKE MALLOY, I.E. AMERICA RADIO NETWORK: Hey, doing great, Arthel -- good to see you.
NEVILLE: All right, nice to see you.
And Rebecca Hagelin is a columnist for worldnetdaily.com. She is getting seated. We'll see her shortly.
Robert George, the associate editorial page editor for the "New York Post."
Robert, can you hear me?
All right, hey, can you hear me, Robert? How're you doing?
ROBERT GEORGE, NY POST EDITORIAL EDITOR: Now, I can hear you, yes.
NEVILLE: All right, welcome.
GEORGE: Thanks, Arthel, thank you.
NEVILLE: And -- all right -- Davey D, a radio talk how host on KPFA in San Francisco, and a hip-hop columnist for the "San Jose Mercury News."
Davey, how you are you?
DAVEY D, KPFA RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I'm doing great -- good to be on.
NEVILLE: I'm glad to have you.
OK, let's start in Cobb County, Georgia, where the school board knows it can't teach creationism, but wants to know whether teaching -- or teachers and students can at least talk about that, and evolution?
Mike, you're up first on this one. Should schools be allowed to teach some form of creationism?
MALLOY: No, absolutely not. That's what church is for, Arthel.
You know, this issue was settled in the Scopes trial years ago, even though the schoolteacher that was accused of teaching evolution was found guilty under the laws at the time. But why this issue keeps coming up again and again and again is amazing to me. I'm not too surprised, though, where it concerns Cobb County. This has been a battle in Cobb County, Georgia for a long time.
But the idea of teaching kids that there is some greater power that created life on earth in the way that the creationists want to teach it, to me, defeats the idea of a good public education. So teach religion...
NEVILLE: Because you're bringing religion into the school?
MALLOY: Well, it's that, but it also blurs the line between separation of church and state. Teach religion in the temple, the mosque, the church. Teach science in the schools.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, I've got Tyrone (ph) here. He's not on the panel, but he's in the audience, so he's just as important. What do you say, Tyrone (ph)?
TYRONE (ph): I think that children are very intelligent today, and articulate, and they ought to be able to learn both theories on creation and evolution to make sound decisions and, you know, informed decisions based on that.
NEVILLE: Robert George, how do you see it?
GEORGE: I mean, I think that you've got a problem in a sense of, you know, which form of -- quote -- "creationism," if you will, do you want to teach? It -- you know, is it the Judea-Christian version? Is it the Muslim version? I mean, I think that's problematic there.
And I think, frankly, just calling it creationism is, in a sense, putting a scientific label on what is a religious -- which is a religious belief, which I think, frankly, underscores the point of religion in the first place.
NEVILLE: OK, Russell from Georgia.
RUSSELL: Yes, I was at the Cobb County meeting last night, and I got to speak for 60 seconds. And what I did was to totally rebuff this separation of church and state. It doesn't exist.
Let me read Article I of the Constitution of the United States, for those of you who obviously have not read it. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging" -- my freedom of speech, your freedom of speech, anyone's freedom of speech -- I interjected that -- "or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for the redress thereof."
That is the facts.
NEVILLE: Having read that, how do you feel?
RUSSELL: Absolutely. I don't have any problem with evolution being taught. It takes far more faith for me to believe that some big ball of something existed in the vacuum of the universe, and something -- they never explained what it was, they don't tell you where the ball came from -- it exploded. Gee, I wish I had the faith of an evolutionist, because then I could do as my God of the Bible, who came to earth as Jesus Christ, said. I could say to this mountain, "Be cast up and hurled into the sea," and it will happen because of that faith. I don't have enough...
NEVILLE: Davey D, tell me what you think.
DAVEY D: I don't have a problem with it being taught, as long as it's not being positioned as the only answer to the beginning of mankind. In other words, if I was to teach a class, I would introduce it as a perspective that is held by some, and coincide that with perspectives that are offered by others, including people from different faiths or other scientific angles that may be taken on that.
But I think if you do it and say, well, this is the only way that man came about, then it's a problem, because you're proselytizing, and I wouldn't go along with it on that level.
NEVILLE: All right, I have got Avery (ph) here. Turn around and look at this camera right here. Tell me what you think.
AVERY (ph): Well, I think that it's pretty plain in this country that there really is meant to be, even if there isn't always, a separation of church and state. If you want your children to be taught creation in schools, a religious perspective, then obviously, first of all, you want them to be taught your religion. If that's what you want, send them to a religious school promoted by your church. If not, I think that the rest of us should have a right to a free public education, which focuses on science rather than a biased religious viewpoint.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir.
OK, Rebecca Hagelin, you're up now. Should the schools be allowed to teach some form of creationism?
REBECCA HAGELIN, COLUMNIST, WORLDNETDAILY.COM: Absolutely. I am all for academic freedom. Let's give our children all of the scientific information that exists. Let's not just withhold a whole body of science from them, because it doesn't fit with the religious worldview of an evolutionist. It's time for us in this country to realize that there is so much of a chaos involved in the evolution movement that one school can be teaching one type, another a completely different type, but yet they are both ignoring a sound scientific body...
MALLOY: I'd like to ask Rebecca...
HAGELIN: ... of creation science.
MALLOY: Rebecca, what do you mean by science? When you talk about what's taught in creationism, in the first place, it's always evangelical Christian creationism. What about Hindu creationism? What about Buddhist creationism? And I think it's...
HAGELIN: Well, you know what? You made -- you raised a great point.
MALLOY: ... it's very disingenuous of you to label religious theory as science. I don't know where you get off doing that.
HAGELIN: Well, isn't that what you're doing about creation science?
MALLOY: No, no, I'm not. Here's the difference.
HAGELIN: We're talking about geological facts.
MALLOY: Rebecca, here's the difference...
HAGELIN: We're talking about a whole body of research.
MALLOY: No, no! Rebecca...
HAGELIN: We're talking about people in evolution can't agree whether it's the big bang or whether we came from somewhere else.
MALLOY: But, Rebecca, that's...
HAGELIN: It's a whole idea of academic freedom, my friend -- academic freedom
MALLOY: Rebecca, that's the wonder of science, as opposed to the iconoclasm -- the iconoclastic approach to religion. Science will always accept a challenge. Science...
HAGELIN: That...
(CROSSTALK)
MALLOY: No, let me finish -- excuse me.
NEVILLE: OK, now, here is where I am going...
MALLOY: Excuse me, Arthel.
NEVILLE: ... to jump in, ladies and gentlemen.
DAVEY D: I want to ask...
NEVILLE: Hang on, no, no, no, no, no, I am going to jump in here, because I have Chuck, who has translated a message from Serge (ph), who is from Russia. What does he say?
CHUCK: He says that you should teach them both and let the kids decide.
MALLOY: How is a child...
CHUCK: Teach them both facts, just the facts...
MALLOY: How is a child...
CHUCK: ... without any acclimation (ph), just teach the facts of what is true what is not true, and let the children decide.
(CROSSTALK)
MALLOY: But there -- but there...
DAVEY D: I want to add...
MALLOY: But there are no facts in religion. It's based on faith. How do you teach a fourth grader, and then say to the fourth grader, here is religious theory, here is scientific theory. Now, you make the decision. A fourth grader doesn't have that ability.
HAGELIN: Creation is science.
DAVEY D: Let me add something to that...
HAGELIN: No, creation is science.
DAVEY D: Let me add something to that. One of the things that I think we should keep in mind is the fact that we do have a lot of people, a significant amount of people from various backgrounds that do have in the core of their identification of self, religion. And for us to get along, and we want kids at a young age to learn to get along, I think it's good that we introduce to people the various perspectives, whether it's religious or scientific, that people may hold. Again, the key is not to do it to the exclusion of others, and not to do it and say, well, this is the only answer and the rest aren't, but to share it and present it. Like if I'm Christian, then let me give my viewpoint and let somebody who is Hindu or Muslim give their viewpoint. And then, let us all decide and take all of that information and know about each other and grow from there. That's what I think we should do.
HAGELIN: You know, absolutely...
NEVILLE: OK, guys, hang on here. I'm going to jump in with an e-mail. Get the people involved.
Jane in Dallas, Texas, "Teach the Bible in Sunday school; teach science in school."
MALLOY: Right.
HAGELIN: Let me answer that statement right there. Creation science has every bit a sound scientific basis as evolutionary theories. It takes a huge amount of blind faith to believe in a big- bang theory. It takes faith to believe in creation.
However, the Creation Science Institute, even worldnetdaily.com, we explore these theories all of the time, and there are geologists, people with Ph.D.s, thousands of people across this world who -- scientific evidence that they believe supports the creation theory. And academic freedom is what we should be supporting in this country, not academic censorship.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Oh, there's the bell. We are moving on.
I want you to feel free to join us for Free-for-all Friday, so you call me at 1-800-310-4cnn, or e-mail me, talkback@cnn.com.
I'll see you right after the break -- don't go anywhere.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a country, we're supposed to be able to say whatever we want on the TV or radio and not be censored, and that obviously shows that we can be censored once they fired them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, because I've seen radio stations go further than that, you know? And I'm pretty sure, if you look into the life of Howard Stern, he's gone beyond that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should be brought up on some kind of charges, misdemeanor, incitement to commit lewd acts in public. I mean, doesn't anybody take responsibility for their actions anymore? (END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
There is a small protest planned in New York at this hour, where shock jocks, Opie and Anthony, got the boot yesterday. Infinity Broadcasting and WNEW pulled the plug on the duo after they sponsored a live sex act in St. Patrick's Cathedral.
Some fans of the station's highest-rated show don't want the jocks to go, but others are outraged by the gimmick, can't wait for them to get out of time -- out of time -- hello -- out of town. Anyway, I'm back, people.
Davey D, did they get what they deserved?
DAVEY D: Not really. I don't think they should have been fired, only because you have so many radio stations that I think have pushed the line even further, and caused actually more harm to people. And I'll just give as an example, fellow coworkers that stopped traffic on the Bay Bridge several years ago. That was more of an inconvenience and a nuisance than me being incensed by somebody having sex in a church.
I think the radio station knew what they were doing when they hired these types of individuals. I mean, the whole shock jock thing is something that we are constantly pushing the line on in our profession. So it's either we're going to make a decision that we don't want that line being pushed, and that we're going to have a set of standards, or we're going to have to just deal with the consequences, and this is just one of them -- these guys doing a play- by-play of somebody having a sex act. That's not the first time that it's happened. It may be the first time it's happened in a church.
NEVILLE: All right, I've got Gloria here from Florida.
GLORIA: Well, I'm very passionate about this subject, and I feel that, although the station's license should not be revoked, it was correct that the shock jocks were fired, because I think the media gives us -- well, gives society more and more permissiveness.
And I'm also very passionate about this, because my son was baptized in St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. My mother was a -- my mom was a volunteer there, and...
NEVILLE: OK, now, that's where I've got to cut you off. I'm happy about your mom being a volunteer and your son, Anthony (ph), getting baptized there, but I've got to go to Mike Malloy.
(CROSSTALK)
GLORIA: ... worship.
NEVILLE: I know it is. I agree with you. I'm on your side, Gloria, here, but I've got to let...
(CROSSTALK)
GLORIA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) have sex, but not in church...
NEVILLE: But a church is not the place, I agree with you.
Mike Malloy, how do you see it?
MALLOY: Well, this is -- you know, what is interesting about this story is, first of all, it's sex in a Catholic church between consenting adults. That's something new and different. It's also apparently heterosexual sex. That's something new and different. It's also -- it's not molestation, which is also something different.
As far as the station losing their license, no, I don't think the station should lose its license. As far as the two shock jocks are concerned, they've been disciplined, but I'll guarantee you, they'll be back to work within 10 days, probably in a higher...
NEVILLE: Not with Infinity, though, right?
MALLOY: Well, not -- no, not with Infinity.
NEVILLE: But they'll be hired someplace else.
MALLOY: But somebody else will hire them, and probably at a higher salary. So, as far as the story is...
NEVILLE: They already make a boatload of money.
MALLOY: As far as the story is concerned, I think we ought to applaud the fact this was sex in a Catholic church between consenting adults.
HAGELIN: That's really sad, a really sad thing to say.
NEVILLE: Robert, how do you see this?
GEORGE: Yes, that is an easy joke. But, frankly the...
MALLOY: Not a joke, not a joke.
GEORGE: ... the Catholic bishops have brought a lot of that on themselves. But, I mean, the key thing here is, though, putting aside the scandals that have been going on in the church lately, it is still -- it's a place of worship, and the people who worship there should be respected.
This actually happened on the Feast of the Assumption, which is a holy day of obligation amongst the Catholic community. So I mean, I think that had an extra aspect to it.
So, yes, I think they should have been fired, and frankly, I commend NEW and Infinity for getting rid of them.
NEVILLE: OK.
GEORGE: There are, clearly, certain lines that shouldn't be crossed.
NEVILLE: OK, Isma (ph) from Michigan.
ISMA (ph): Although, they might get higher ratings, you know, the line has to be drawn somewhere. And maybe if the public shunned it a little more, then more radio stations would watch out what they say. And also, it's not just a disgrace to the church, but any place of worship for that matter.
NEVILLE: Thank you.
HAGELIN: I agree with her.
NEVILLE: And Mike is calling in. What do you say, Mike?
MIKE: Well, Arthel, I think it's all -- it's pretty immoral, I think, in my opinion, what they said and what they did. But basically, it's all about money, and those network executives are going to let people do this kind of a thing, which I totally don't agree with, but it goes on. It's all about advertising money. But my personal opinion is, it's OK that they were fired, because I think it's immoral.
NEVILLE: All right, thank you for calling in, Mike.
I have an e-mail coming across the line now I want to share with everybody. Let's see it.
It is from J. Craig in Washington. He says: "The shock jocks should not be fired. Outrageous on-air stunts are their job. They drive up ratings, and that's what these guys are being paid for. If anything, the firing is part of the act."
Hey, Rebecca, what do you say about that?
HAGELIN: Yes, I agree with my good friend, Robert, on this. These guys went to the cliff hoping that they could teeter there. But guess what? They fell off, and they deserved to have fallen off that cliff. They went too far. I think America's standard of decency is higher than that. I think attacking a whole religion on a holy day for them goes beyond the line. And I don't think that the license of the station should be pulled, but I do agree with firing them.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Oh, there's the bell again.
Up next: Will you watch a miniseries about Hitler, the teenager? Find out why some people think this project could be dangerous.
TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BUSINESS NEWS UPDATE)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.
Was Adolf Hitler -- what was he like as a teenager?
CBS has a miniseries in the works about the early years of Hitler. The network says it will show the roots of evil, but critics are worried the series will actually show a more human side of Hitler, and that, they say, could make him a sympathetic figure to some, especially younger viewers.
Rebecca, you're up first on this one.
A TV show about Hitler's childhood and young adulthood. It stops before you get to the Holocaust. Should that be on the air?
HAGELIN: Well, I think it's going to be very hard to find out what was historically accurate about Hitler as a young man, because remember, when he was in control and the Nazis were in control, he had control of the propaganda machine, which rewrote whatever his history probably really was. And there are no existing documents about what his true history was, because he was in control of the propaganda machine.
So I'd like to find out what the historical sources would be for such a story, and I think there is great danger in romanticizing this horrible terrorist.
NEVILLE: OK, I've got -- wow!
ERMEL (ph): Ermel (ph).
NEVILLE: Ermel (ph) from New York.
ERMEL (ph): Yes. I've got a point that if you show you an evil man as a human, that's very bad, because it becomes an idol to a younger generation stating that, OK, you have done the right job. Well, no, that's wrong, because it gives kind of a creation or a new generation, which follows Hitler, and again, it's the same world.
NEVILLE: So you say no?
ERMEL (ph): I say no, it should not be shown.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you.
Robert, how do you see it?
GEORGE: Well, I think that the author -- this particular book, it's actually part of a three-volume biography of Hitler. And the accuracy of his material is supposed to be very, very good.
I don't think we're going to be seeing, you know, Adolf Hitler, the Dawson Creek years kind of approach. I think, obviously, if you want to get an idea on the roots of evil, or how somebody could end up that way, you really do have to start at the beginning. And there is a concern, legitimately so, that the television sometimes doesn't get all of the nuances of a written work. But I think it's something that's worth taking a look at.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, before we move on, I want to read a statement that CBS sent to us. It says: "Everyone at CBS recognizes the responsibility that goes along with a broadcast of this subject matter. Adolf Hitler was a monster and cannot be presented in any other way. We have tremendous confidence that our partners at Alliance Atlantis will develop the project with the highest standards and seriousness, while providing an important and relevant examination of how Hitler came to power."
Ms. Ellen (ph), what do you say to that?
ELLEN (ph): I agree with it. I think it's actually a good idea to get to his background, because I think -- I can't imagine that anyone is going to be able romanticize him. How did someone become so warped that they would do what he did?
NEVILLE: Davey D, CBS also says, listen, we are still -- this program, this show, this miniseries is in the developing stages, and they want everyone to withhold judgment until they actually see the finished product.
Davey D, what do you say about all of this?
DAVEY D: I agree that we should definitely know his background just so we get a better understanding of what led to him being the type of person that he was. But I would also keep in mind that we kind of humanize people who have done dastardly deeds already. And I'm just thinking of like, say, George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. Yes, they were our first presidents, father of the country, et cetera, et cetera, but they were also slave owners. To me, I think that's a terrorist-type of depiction, and I think that that's something that was dastard about them, and we should...
HAGELIN: Wow!
DAVEY D: Well, I mean, you have to be -- you have to look...
HAGELIN: To compare -- to compare George Washington and Hitler.
DAVEY D: Well, you know what? Well, you know you have to look at it from this standpoint. People who were slaves at the time and owned by those folks did not think that they were very nice and did not hold them to high esteem; 200, 300 years later, we do and say they're the father of the country, and we have humanized them.
So I think we have to be very careful, or at least realize that we do that from time to time. And if we do that with Hitler, I think we should definitely have a more in-depth discussion about the pros and cons of his life, and look at it as a learning experience.
NEVILLE: Mike Malloy.
MALLOY: Yes, I agree with Davey D. The people who put this country together have their own history. And as far as the argument that showing "Hitler: The Early Years," if that's what it's going to be titled, is somehow going to deny the history that's already out there for people who are in school, I that's a lousy argument, at best.
The history of this man, his early years, his childhood, what led him to become this evil individual, I think it should be out there, and I applaud CBS for doing this.
NEVILLE: OK, and I have an e-mail...
GEORGE: And, Arthel, you know how the -- you kind of know how the story ends, regardless of what they do in the beginning.
NEVILLE: OK, you know what? I've got to do an e-mail right now. We're going to get the people involved here.
It says - where is it -- oh, Bobbi in Alabama: "Why on earth would they want to do a miniseries in the first place? No, I wouldn't watch. The man was a murderer!"
(BELL RINGING)
And there is the bell. Time's up for that topic.
Up next: Do high school kids need cell phones at school? Hello!
And then, don't forget, later, real news, real fast, in a flash from -- reimbursing drug addicts to Michael Jackson, our "Flash Round" will take your breath and mine, apparently, all the way from you.
Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues. It's Free-for-all Friday!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Should high school students leave their cone -- what is wrong with my mouth today, you all? OK, here's the deal. I am going on vacation in about 30 minutes. So, bear with me, all right? I'm here with you.
The question is: Should school students leave their cell phones at home? All right, settle down, Arthel. Cell phones as well as pagers are a turnoff in many school districts, but kids use them anyway. And, recently, one high school in New Hampshire simply gave up and let kids ring up any time, except during class. OK?
Rebecca, you are first up on this one. Should students be allowed to talk on their cell phones at school?
HAGELIN: Hey, on behalf of all of the American parents who have to pay cell phone bills for their teenagers, I say no.
But, seriously, school is not the right time. You know what? When I went to school, if parents needed to get a message to their kids, they called the school office. If the kids had an emergency, they went to the school office. Ringing up in class is not good.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: However, as far as emergencies go, maybe it is a good idea to have kids with cell phones at school. In the case of Columbine, kids were able to make phone calls.
HAGELIN: Well, that is true.
But the problem that you have is: Do you want every class to have the potential to be interrupted by kids on the phone, who we all know it's hard to get teenagers off the phone anyway?
NEVILLE: Oh, no, no. They need to cut this off. You're right. They need to cut this off.
In fact, I'll tell you what I did. I called my little cousin Shak (ph) one day. She was a senior in high school. I called her. She should have been in class. I called her on her cell phone, right? A recording came on. I was like, boy, you are lucky that machine picked up. So, it was a treat.
Hey, Davey D, how do you see it?
DAVEY D: I don't mind. I think kids should be able to have them. Cell phones are just a normal part of our everyday life. Plus, you can't find a decent pay phone. And when you do, it is usually way too expensive. So, I mean, just don't use them in the classrooms. You have to have common sense.
Times have changed. We have new technology. We have people who now bring laptops to the classroom. And I remember when I was going to school, it was a big deal just to have a calculator. So, we've just got to go along with the technology and enforce the rules.
NEVILLE: And, Davey D, what do you think should happen? Obviously, the kids can have the cell phones at school. What should the teacher do if in fact a student leaves the cell phone on and it rings while they're in class?
DAVEY D: You would get disciplined, just as if I was to start having a conversation with my neighbor or pass a note, which were against rules of the classroom. I mean, it does not have to be this all-out drama.
It is just: "Look, your phone went off. You are going to get marked up for it." End of story.
NEVILLE: All right, I have -- oh, Dr. Michelle?
MICHELLE: Yes. From Iowa.
NEVILLE: What kind of doctor are you?
MICHELLE: I'm a doctor of chiropractic. And I'm certified in acupuncture. NEVILLE: I have a crick in my neck. Can you help me out?
MICHELLE: After the show.
(LAUGHTER)
MICHELLE: Anyway, I think one issue that should be researched before final answers are -- or decisions are made, there are documented cases of cancer as a result of excessive use of the cell phones. Typically, you can find the cancer...
NEVILLE: OK, Dr. Michelle, I don't know which road you are taking. I'm not going there right now, OK?
MICHELLE: Yes. I just think it should be researched out.
NEVILLE: Should they have the phones in high school or not?
MICHELLE: No.
NEVILLE: Thank you, Dr. Michelle.
All right, we got to that point, didn't we?
Let's see, Mike Malloy, I have not heard from you in a while.
MALLOY: Cell phones in schools -- when Rebecca went to school and Davey D and the rest of us, we still had the idea of intact families. People would get together at least twice a day: in the morning before they went to school, in the evening at dinnertime. With the way families are constituted now and with the schedules people have, I think the idea of having cell phones is a good one, just for people to stay in touch.
As far as the rules are concerned about the possession or use of those phones, sure, set up some rules. But let the kids have them.
NEVILLE: I say let them have them, too.
HAGELIN: Yes, and enforce the rules.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, I know Ed is calling in now on the phone from New Jersey.
Are you calling in from a cell phone?
CALLER: No, I am not. I'm calling from a phone in my home.
I am a high school English teacher here in New Jersey. And there are times where it is definitely a distraction with beepers and cell phones. Students at that age -- maybe they should have a phone when they're in the high school. But there's no need to have them in school in the classrooms. It causes way too much of a distraction for teachers and other students.
NEVILLE: I agree. I agree. HAGELIN: Keep them in the lockers or the backpacks until after school.
NEVILLE: And turn them off. Put them on vibrate. Who needs to get in touch with you while you're in school?
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Oh, there is the bell, speaking of school.
GEORGE: Arthel, I never even got in on that one.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: Oh, who said that? Who said that?
GEORGE: I said that.
NEVILLE: OK, Robert, guess what? When we come back, you are up next, OK?
GEORGE: OK. Good enough.
NEVILLE: Still ahead, another school issue: dress codes. I'll tell you why parents are furious over what one school does to violators.
Stay right there. TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday": When these students violate the dress code, they have to wear telltale T- shirts. The shirts fit the bill, so why are parents on the warpath?
Find out as TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Of course, you know nothing about that firsthand, right?
OK. Welcome back, everybody.
How far can a school go to enforce dress codes? One high school in South Carolina says it has the answer. Have the students wear school-designed T-shirts when they violate the dress code. On the front, they say: "Today, I did not meet the dress code policy for proper attire"; on the back, printed: "Tomorrow, I will dress for success." Now, some parents complain the T-shirts could damage self- esteem.
OK, Robert, as promised, you're up first. Is this humiliating to students?
GEORGE: It may be humiliating to the students, but so what? I went to Catholic school. I had to wear the white shirt, the blazer and the chip-on tie. And I survived. So I think kids can -- if there is a reasonable dress code, the kids can follow it. It is cheaper ultimately for the parents, because they only have to buy one set of clothing. And if they forget, fine, they get the white T- shirt. I think it's better...
NEVILLE: Yes, but this is public school. They don't have to wear those clip-on ties like you did, Robert.
GEORGE: This is true.
However, I think a lot of the public schools are realizing that...
NEVILLE: Yes, uniforms is the way to go.
GEORGE: Rather than have all these kids show up in jewelry and all this other bling-bling stuff, it is better to have a basic dress code. And, besides, a white T-shirt is better than a dunce cap.
NEVILLE: Have you ever worn the dunce cap?
GEORGE: I think I decline to answer on the grounds it might incriminate me.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: OK, I have Erum (ph) here in the audience.
ERUM: I think that the T-shirt is a wonderful idea. I think it's actually hilarious. And if the kids can't follow the dress codes or they are offended by it, then maybe they should think twice before wearing provocative or scandalous clothing to school, because they are only there for education.
NEVILLE: That's right.
And here's the dress code, by the way. The rules say T-shirts with any kind -- you can't wear T-shirts with any kind of profanity or beer and illegal drugs on the front of them, midriff-bearing shirts, tank tops, and shirts with those little narrow spaghetti straps.
OK, those are the rules.
Let's hear what the e-mail person has to say about this. What do you say? Who was e-mailing me? It's Trevor: "Using the T-shirts to cover the inappropriately dressed students is a very good idea. I would rather have my child wear a disciplinary T-shirt than" -- something else. It continued on.
Anyway, listen, let's get Mike Malloy in on this one.
MALLOY: I'll tell you, Arthel, I think a lot of the kids would probably love to wear that T-shirt, because, don't forget what kids are struggling for in high school. They are struggling for a unique appearance. They're struggling for their individuality.
As far as a dress code is concerned, sure, public schools ought to have a dress code. All the kids ought to wear the same thing, just like they do in Catholic schools, just like they do in private schools. First of all, it would cut down on the budget for the parents. And, secondly, I think it would reduce a lot of unnecessary competition.
But I think a lot of kids are going to go for that T-shirt if that is the only disciplinary move that is taken if you wear inappropriate clothing.
NEVILLE: But you know what? Apparently, it is working in that school in South Carolina, because, apparently, they were handing out 30 T-shirts a day. Now it is down to one or two.
MALLOY: Well, that is probably because the other 28 or 29 were taken home and kept can as a trophy.
HAGELIN: You know what? I can't believe I actually agree with Mike, but I do.
MALLOY: I can't either.
(CROSSTALK)
MALLOY: I can't either, Rebecca. Trust me.
(LAUGHTER)
HAGELIN: I think it is going to backfire on the school. I think school uniforms and enforcing a school code and dress behavior is a excellent idea.
But I think the kids ought to miss some class if they dress wrongly. Their parents ought to be called. They ought to be forced to bring down the appropriate clothing, instead of disrupting class with a T-shirt.
NEVILLE: Something a little more harsh.
HAGELIN: Yes, exactly.
NEVILLE: Let's go with Jack from New York.
JACK: I don't really see the complaint. You break the rules and you get a free T-shirt. So I would do things right to get a free T- shirt.
NEVILLE: See, you know what is sad, Jack? That I actually find some humor in that myself. And that's sad. I'm not encouraging students at home to break the rules.
JACK: Yes, definitely. I would definitely do that.
NEVILLE: OK. Let's see, you haven't heard on this one -- Davey D, I haven't you from you on this one.
DAVEY D: Hey, I am in total agreement with everybody.
Dress code, definitely we need to have. When I was coming up, my parents would not get me the type of clothing that I wanted. So I am going to be a hater in this situation. I want all the kids to have to go through what I went through and wear the bland uniform.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVEY D: But with that being said, I don't think -- I think the T-shirt, though, has the tendency to be a trophy for folks, and so that might be -- that might backfire.
NEVILLE: That's what Jack was saying.
GEORGE: It's sort of like the old Bart Simpson "Underachiever and proud of it" kind of
(CROSSTALK)
DAVEY D: But dress code, definitely.
NEVILLE: I have Travis here.
Travis, you are from New York. How old are you?
TRAVIS: I'm 12.
NEVILLE: OK, what do you say about this idea?
TRAVIS: I say it doesn't really matter what they wear. They come to learn, so it shouldn't really matter what they wear to school or not. So...
NEVILLE: OK. You know what? I did not hear you. Someone was talking to me. What did you say again?
TRAVIS: It does not matter what they wear to school. It's just that they are there to learn.
NEVILLE: Yes, but come on. Don't you agree that some people come in there with those little midriff things hanging out, all their you know what hanging out? That is not good, Travis.
TRAVIS: Yes, but...
NEVILLE: OK, yes, yes, yes. Come here. If a girl is sitting in your class wearing that, are you watching the teacher or the girl?
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: Yes, uh-huh.
Mike is calling in on the phone.
Go ahead, Mike. What do you say about all of this?
MIKE: Well, I think that, yes, it is good for them to have the T-shirt, which dealt with the issue about them if they're not in the dress code, to wear the T-shirt.
It is a form of the dunce cap, in a sense. And here in Georgia in DeKalb County, a new superintendent came here in the DeKalb County area, which he came from Birmingham or from Alabama, and started a dress code issue. And I think that it takes a lot of pressure off the other kids not to try to look like or dress like their other peers. So, yes, I think it is a good idea.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Oh, there goes the bell.
Still ahead: You either love them or hate them, SUVs we are talking about. Are they a killer of a car? Hmm.
Stick around. We will talk about it when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.
Here is a question for you. Do you own an SUV? Do you want one? Maybe you hate them. A group of SUV haters was recently in force in New York, slapping big yellow violation signs on windshields and up and down the streets of Greenwich Village. It was all over the place. The flyers have lots of not-so-nice things to say about the vehicle and the people who own them.
Davey D, is this harassment?
DAVEY D: Well, I'm not a big fan of the SUVs. But, at the same time, if you put a sticker on my car, we are going to have problems. So, I wouldn't put the stickers, but, hey, man, more power to them.
NEVILLE: Robert George?
GEORGE: Well, actually, they're not exactly stickers. What is so sneaky about them...
NEVILLE: They are flyers.
GEORGE: Well, they are flyers.
NEVILLE: That look like a ticket.
GEORGE: They are flyers that look like -- they look a parking ticket.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
GEORGE: And they say "big violation" in big orange letters on it. And they stick it underneath there. The fact is, it is free speech. And people put a lot of other advertising underneath windshield wipers. So I think, in a sense, that is fine. However, I think, like Davey said, if one of the owners of these SUVs actually comes along and finds a person doing that at the time...
NEVILLE: It's on.
GEORGE: ... I think there is going to be a big problem and you are going to seeing some fights here. And so these do-gooders might want to think better.
NEVILLE: Hey, Rebecca, you know that these little flyers that we are talking about, what they also do is, they hand out information like the gas mileage say a Ford Excursion might get or a Lincoln Navigator might get. So, I don't know. What do you think about this?
HAGELIN: Hey, well, I don't like SUVs. I personally like my little convertible that I call my midlife Chrysler.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: What kind of car do you drive?
HAGELIN: I drive a Sebring Convertible. And I just love it.
And the whole point, though, that I would like to make about these people who are sticking flyers on cars, unless they are going around and picking up the litter that they have caused...
GEORGE: Good job, Rebecca.
HAGELIN: ... then they are doing more damage to the environment than the SUVs are.
NEVILLE: There is a point.
Mike Malloy?
MALLOY: Once again, it looks like Rebecca and I are essentially in agreement. But I don't think litter equals the amount of atmospheric pollutants that one SUV dumps into the air we are supposed to breathe.
GEORGE: You should check some of the trash we have in New York, Mike.
MALLOY: Well, but you don't breathe it. You don't breath it, you see?
Here in Atlanta, we have day after day after day where the air is unhealthy to breathe. And an SUV, the average SUV dumps about three times as much of these pollutants in the atmosphere as the average car. I think it's a good idea. I think any kind of guerrilla activity like that that puts a flyer under somebody's windshield wiper and reminds them of what they are doing I think is great. I applaud these people.
NEVILLE: OK, I have got Chuck is in the audience.
CHUCK: Well, I want to know, are these adults that we are talking about? Do they really think they are going to do anything by putting stickers on people's cars? Do you think that people are not going to -- are going to stop driving their SUVs because they put a little piece of paper on it?
NEVILLE: Well, maybe they think its make people think twice. Maybe they won't renew for another SUV.
CHUCK: Well, I have an SUV and I love it, OK? It gets terrible gas mileage, but I love it, because it's big. But they are not going to do anything by putting paper on other people's cars.
NEVILLE: It wouldn't stop you, huh, Chuck?
DAVEY D: Hey, but you know what?
CHUCK: It is just, like, immature. It is amazing that they are adults and they are doing something so immature.
NEVILLE: How old are you, Chuck?
CHUCK: I am 16. And I would realize that it's kind of immature. I would never do something like that. And it's stupid.
DAVEY D: Domino's puts flyers on my cars all the time and I remember the number as a result.
And, at 16, if he has a SUV, man, that's
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: That's what I was thinking. Man, what kind of parents
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Chuck's parents must be loaded. You have an SUV at 16? That is no fair.
All right, I have an e-mail coming up for you. Where is it? It's from Paul in Alexandria, Virginia. He says: "As a new parent of twins" -- congratulations -- "I just bought an SUV because it is big enough for the family and enabled me to avoid the dreaded minivan. I love it."
OK, so he makes a point about the minivan.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Oh, there is the bell. I have got to move on.
Get ready for our "Flash Round." That is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, it's time for our "Free-For-All Flash Round."
Panel, get ready. This is going to be fast and furious.
First up: A legislator is Suffolk County, New York, wants police officers to study Arabic in order to deal with terrorist threats.
Mike.
MALLOY: Study Arabic just to become familiar with Arabic culture. Don't study it about terrorist threats. Expanding a police officer's ability to understand the people that he has to deal with I think is a good idea.
NEVILLE: Rebecca.
HAGELIN: Bad idea. We should concentrate on everybody learning the English language first, and learning it very well, and then hiring professionals to interpret when necessary another language.
NEVILLE: Robert.
GEORGE: Yes, learn English. Learn Spanish. Learn the Arabic culture, but you don't really need to learn a whole new language.
NEVILLE: Davey.
DAVEY D: I think you should learn as much as possible, especially if you are a public servant. So, I am for them learning Arabic language to know the culture better and communicate better.
NEVILLE: OK.
Next: Hookers, drug users and panhandlers in Canada want to be compensated by the movie industry when filmmakers disrupt their neighborhood. They are complaining about lost wages.
What do you make of that?
Rebecca.
HAGELIN: Oh, my gosh. Let's encourage illegal activity by paying them for their illegal activity. It's nuts.
NEVILLE: Robert.
GEORGE: With all those Hollywood types, you would figure they would be getting more customers, not less.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: By the way, Rebecca, it is legal. Prostitution is legal in Canada.
Davey D. HAGELIN: Right.
DAVEY D: Well, if it is legal, then pay them. But maybe I should become a hooker and collect some cash.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: Mike Malloy.
MALLOY: Hey, listen, if it interrupts their means of making a livelihood, of course compensate them.
NEVILLE: OK, how about this, nice and simple: baby No. 3 for Michael Jackson. He named him Prince Michael II, perhaps odd, yes. But get this. Prince Michael is the name his first son, too.
Comments?
Robert.
GEORGE: Michael Jackson, I mean, what else is there to say? It is pathetic at this point.
NEVILLE: Davey D.
DAVEY D: Mike, man, he is the man. What else can you say? Three kids and going? At least he is doing it.
NEVILLE: Mike.
MALLOY: How do we know it is Michael Jackson's child?
GEORGE: We don't even know who the mother is.
NEVILLE: Rebecca.
HAGELIN: I hate to say it, but I did not know he was still capable of fathering children.
(LAUGHTER)
NEVILLE: OK, how about this: an online sperm donor service for lesbians only? It's available now in Britain, with the appropriate address: ManNotIncluded.com. The site will match sperm donors with lesbian couples who want children.
Davey D.
DAVEY D: Sure. If you want to be a parent and that is the only way you can do it, I am for it. Go ahead.
NEVILLE: Mike Malloy.
MALLOY: Good idea. As long as there is the type of bigotry against people who are homosexual, it has to be done anonymously. Go for it. NEVILLE: Rebecca.
HAGELIN: I think somebody should start LesbiansShouldntBeParents.com.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Rebecca. Boo. Rebecca, no, no, no. You can't say that.
All right, that is it.
HAGELIN: Oh, yes, I can.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: The bell says we are out of time.
GEORGE: Online, and I guess hardware is not included.
NEVILLE: Mike Malloy, Rebecca Hagelin, Robert George, Davey D, thank you so much for joining me. I'm Arthel Neville.
Have a fantastic weekend. I won't see you Monday. I'm on vacation next week. Could you tell?
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