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CNN Talkback Live
Lobbyist Calls for Death Penalty for Robbers and Drug Dealers; Palestinian-American Comic Complains After Canceled Gig; Household Cat Priced at $5 Million
Aired August 28, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(APPLAUSE)
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.
I'm Leon Harris, once again sitting in for Arthel Neville, who is off this week.
We have got a lot of ground to cover so let's jump right into it. We got some new information coming eventually this afternoon about that 9-year-old boy who is missing in California. We'll talk about that coming up in just a few minutes.
There's also the sentencing for child killer David Westerfield. And searching for humor in the Mideast conflict? Check that one out as well.
And then stay tuned for a chance to weigh in on this -- Serena Williams' latest tennis outfit. Now she wore this at the U.S. Open, but a lot of folks are wondering if this is too racy for the racquet set? And can you put a dollar value on the family pet? Why does this man here think that this cat that you see there is worth five million big ones?
All right. Let's start off by meeting our panel. Michael Smerconish is an attorney and radio talk show host on WPHT in Philadelphia. He is also a columnist with the "Philadelphia Daily News."
Victoria Jones is a radio talk show host with the Talk Radio News Service. And she's there. You see her. Carl Jeffers is a columnist with the "Seattle Times." He'll be with us in just a moment. He hasn't gotten seated just yet. And Jack Burkman is a Republican consultant and a lobbyist for Banking and Entertainment Issues. Good afternoon, folks. Glad to have you all with us.
Let's jump into it, all right? First of all, let's talk about the case we have been watching -- we watched quite a bit today. Should it be life in prison or death for convicted child killer David Westerfield? A San Diego jury today is being asked to decide if Westerfield should die for abducting and murdering 7-year-old neighbor Danielle van Dam. A death requires a unanimous verdict -- Michael.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, WPHT RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Guy should fry. I mean, this is a no-brainer, and what's frustrating to me, Leon, is that this is an academic debate, because California has a backlog of death penalties waiting to be carried out. Westerfield is 50 or so years old. Probably he never dies for this, but he certainly should die for what he did to that young girl.
JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Leon, if the case -- this case cries out for the death penalty. If you don't give the death penalty to this guy, who do you give it to? And Michael is right on the money. He may never die. One of the big problems in this country is that people sit on death row for 20, 30 or more years. What we need is a constitutional amendment short circuiting that process, so from the time of conviction until the time of actual execution is shortened. That's a very important amendment. We need it. We don't have it.
VICTORIA JONES, TALK RADIO NEWS SERVICE: Of course sometimes it's a good thing that people are on death row for a very long time, because Barry Scheck's Innocence Project finds out they didn't do it in the first place, and so we don't have innocent people being executed.
HARRIS: About 110 of them, so far.
JONES: I'm not saying Westerfield, by the way. Westerfield should die. That's it.
HARRIS: As a matter of fact, you mentioned Barry Scheck's Innocence Project. As a matter of fact, was it just two days ago there was a man in Detroit who was just found innocent by DNA evidence that came out some 17 years after he spent on death row there.
BURKMAN: Remember, Leon, much is being made of that. But keep in mind, our penal system is not, cannot be, and will never be perfect. None of those things are arguments against the death penalty. I mean, the left has argued for years, that well, life in prison is actually worse. Now they flip-flop and they're saying the opposite.
I mean, you will always have -- unfortunately it a fact of life, there will always be people who are unfairly prosecuted, who are unfairly convicted, who are unfairly executed. All we can do is make the system as good as we can, but perfection is in impossible.
HARRIS: Well, a second ago you said something about a constitutional amendment. Is it -- should it go that far? What do you think about that, Michael?
SMERCONISH: I think -- I'm pro bono counsel for the widow of the police officer murdered by Mumia Abu Jamal, and I've represented Maureen Faulkner (ph) for the last seven years. We've been waiting in Philadelphia 20 plus years for Mumia Abu Jamal to die as a jury sentenced him to do, and here we are in the new millennium still talking about it. Something has got to come about to short circuit this process.
JONES: It certainly has. I don't think we need a constitutional amendment to do it, though, and to sort of say that this is necessarily a left-right issue is certainly not true. You have people on the right who are saying that justice is not being administered fairly.
BURKMAN: Not many of them, Victoria. Not many of them.
JONES: I don't think that anybody thinks that justice is perfect. Of course it's not. It's the scales that's being weighed. We have human beings administering it. That doesn't mean that we don't do everything that we possibly can to make it as fair as we possibly can. Of course we have to do that.
BURKMAN: Let me tell you the problem I have with this. You as a liberal, I am very surprised that you take the positions on the death penalty you do, because for every day that we have to keep these bums in prison, that is money out of AIDS research, it's money out of the defense budget, it's money out of funding for things like multiple sclerosis. It's dollars out of an increasingly tight federal budget, and I have always been shocked that our friends on the left are the ones who want that.
JONES: You know, it's fascinating to me that you are characterizing my position on the death penalty when you actually don't know what it is, and you're characterizing me as a liberal not necessarily knowing what that even means. It actually means being open minded, and second of all...
BURKMAN: No, Victoria.
JONES: ...I support the death penalty, Jack, so don't try and peg me in a particular way when you don't know what my position is.
BURKMAN: You flip-flopped on that a good number of times on that over the years.
JONES: Well, that's because, Jack, I believe in fairness, and I believe going issue by issue rather than constitutionally whacking everybody over the head.
HARRIS: Just for the heck of it, let me suggest also it may not necessarily be a zero sum game. We find out now the government that does mind running deficits, so it doesn't necessarily mean that if you take one from one it automatically comes from the other, correct?
BURKMAN: Well, Leon, that's true, but like I said, we live in an age where there has been a policy choice that spending will be limited, so once -- if you accept that, if you accept the road we're taking with federal spending, it is in fact a zero sum game. Now you could reopen the other side of that and say we should spend money on everything, but the reality is we can't, and we're spending an awful lot of money keeping people alive in jails. I mean, I will take -- maybe my position is extreme.
I don't know, you can poll your audience. I think we should expand the death penalty to a still broader range of crimes. For instance, and maybe this is controversial, I don't know. If a person commits robbery three times, threatens lives, you mean to tell me we should keep that person alive? If a person sells dope to children three times, should we keep him alive? I say not. If a person commits rape three times do you mean to tell me that I should pay, that you should pay, that your audience should pay to keep this kind of a bum in jail? I don't think so.
JONES: I'm astonished. I mean, I'm so astonished I'm almost speechless, except you can't be speechless on a talk show. That's almost Saudi Arabian in its ferocity. Yes, we do believe in keeping people alive because we are a civilized society and we don't always kill everybody for doing everything.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Well, I tell you what? Hang on a second. Let me jump in real quick. We got caller who is on the line and we don't want to kill her phone right now. Nancy, are you there?
CALLER: Yes, I am.
HARRIS: What is your comment?
CALLER: I am a mother, grandmother and a great-grandmother. I think he should get the death penalty, because if doesn't, then you can figure there is going to be other ones following in his footsteps, and they are going to know that they can get away with this and they're going to keep on harming these little children. I think it is a disgrace if he doesn't get the death penalty.
HARRIS: All right. Thank you, Nancy. We have another comment coming from the audience here.
CALLER: My name is Larry Coleman (ph). I feel that he should get the death penalty because he has committed a heinous crime. There is no doubt that he did it. Blood was found in his bed, the young girl's blood was found in his bed, in his trailer. There is no doubt in my mind we don't need this person.
HARRIS: Yes, I think we pretty much settled that on this particular case.
Let's move on to another one. We've got more to get to. Let's not spend the whole afternoon on this one. There's another one in the news as well this morning. A sentencing hearing is also underway, even as we speak, as a matter of fact. This is the trial of Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel. He is convicted of killing his neighbor Martha Moxley back in 1975, back when they were both 15.
Now he could be sentenced to anywhere from 10 years to 25 years to life, but he could serve as little as six years if he gets credit for good behavior. Let's throw that one out to the panel. Let's begin with you again, Michael.
SMERCONISH: Well, what's distressing to me is that the standards that apply to this particular sentencing are those that were in effect in 1975, and keep in mind, Leon, he was tried as an adult after a great deal of pretrial argument as to whether he should be tried as a juvenile or as an adult, and distressing to me is that 1975 the minimum sentence was 10 years, 10 years for taking the life of a 15- year-old girl. Hardly fair, you're correct. He could be out in six for good behavior, whatever that is.
BURKMAN: You know, Leon, it is always particularly disturbing -- I agree with Michael, it is a darn shame that he is going to be sentenced under the old guidelines, but I suppose that's just the way the law is. It is always a terrible shame, and it is still more egregious when you have a person of rank and privilege, a society person, a person who had an education, who had every reason to know better, goes out and does this sort of thing. I think those cases are still more egregious.
HARRIS: Do you think it is clear that in this case he has gotten preferential treatment foes of his family status?
BURKMAN: Oh, I think there's no question. I mean, it can cut both ways. There are probably some negative aspects, but it's...
HARRIS: It sure got a lot more attention, that's for sure.
BURKMAN: He got preferential treatment. I will tell you, Leon, Mickey Sherman, who's a great defense attorney, been on this program, is a friend of mine, he did a great job with this case.
This guy -- if you want to know who Michael Skakel is, when they were waiting for the jury to come back, this guy who is a drunken bum, wandered away to a bar not once but three times, which for me -- I been a lawyer 10 years. I have never heard of such a thing! Imagine he's sitting in a courtroom waiting for a verdict in his own murder trial, in a murder trial, and he wanders away to a bar! Something is wrong.
JONES: Well, there's definitely something wrong with this guy, and he needs to go away and he needs to go away for as long as he can. I understand they can give 25 to life, which of course breaks down as less than that under those guidelines, but it's crazy if the guy is out in six years when you have people going away for simple drug possession who will be doing more time than him. That makes no sense, and already he has had how many years free, like 25 years free, for killing this girl? No, he needs to go away for a good long time.
HARRIS: Well, we've got to go away to a break right now, so just stick around folks. We are going to hit some more topics when we cut back after a break. In the meantime, we also want to hear from you out there. Make sure you get in touch with us here. Call us at 1- 800-310-4CNN or e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com.
Now coming up next, there are some new developments in the case of that 9-year-old boy who has been missing in California, that we've been talking about here on the network all morning. A live report coming up after the break. Don't go away.
(APPLAUSE) HARRIS: Welcome back. In Palm Desert, California, there is some new information coming out about a 9-year-old boy who was abducted from his home overnight. Nicholas Michael Farber (ph) -- you see him there on the screen -- he was taken in the middle of the night after intruders broke into the home and beat up his father. Now here with an update on all of this is CNN correspondent John Vause, who has been quite busy this afternoon. John, what's the latest?
Apparently John is having -- we can see John is obviously having some problems with his audio feed.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Got you, Leon.
HARRIS: There he is. John, go ahead.
VAUSE: We will find you. That is the message coming from the sheriff's department here at Palm Desert. They're saying this to the men who abducted young Nicholas about 10 hours ago now, and what they're saying to these men who abducted this boy is, drop him off at some kind of state agency, at a federal agency, either a hospital, a fire station, a police department, anything -- they want this boy back.
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the FBI. They say there's something like 85 agents who are now working this case. There are 35 agents in this immediate area. There are another 50 agents nationwide looking for the boy's mother. They say that she is in Colorado. Deborah Rose. They say that they want to talk to her. They say she is not a suspect, but they want to talk to her, and a short time ago they actually confirmed to us that there is in fact a bad relationship between the boy's father and the boy's mother. They are estranged. She lives in Colorado Springs.
FBI agents have been looking for her there. They are yet to find her, but they say they want to talk to her, as any part -- as a routine part of this investigation. Now the reason why the FBI are being called in is because this boy is under the age of 12. He's only nine years old, and because of his young age there is a presumption that he will in fact be taken out of state, and also, add to that the fact that the mother is out of state, there is now is now a real fear that the boy will be taken out of California to some other part of the country.
So that's why the FBI have been called in. We know there's been about 10 hours since the boy was taken at gunpoint. In that abduction there was a struggle between the boy and two men who were armed. The father was injured. He was treated for bruises to the head, to the chest. He was taken to hospital, he was treated for several hours and released. In fact, one of the problems that the police had in trying to get information our of the father is that he was in a such a terrible case of shock he could not give them the information, at least not straight away.
That information did come out over a period of hours. They now have issued a photo sketch of at least one of the suspects, described as a Hispanic male, event though these men were described as wearing masks, dressed in black, and when they abducted the boy, they dragged him, they put him in a white SUV and they made off. There were a number of other men inside that car as well. By some accounts the boy's father came running out of the house at the time, screaming as the car sped away.
That is the latest here, Leon, so the main issue, though, that the police are saying here, is that they want to speak to the boy's mother, Deborah Rose. They are yet to do that. They have looked for her at a house in Colorado, presumably at her place of employment, and they are yet to find her -- Leon.
HARRIS: John, before we let you go, let me ask you to clear one thing up that I heard this afternoon that jumped out at me. We have been talking all morning since I was on the air this morning on "CNN LIVE TODAY" about police looking for this white GMC Yukon vehicle, and then I heard something just a little while ago saying about the mother in this case may have had the same exact kind of vehicle? Is there a connection there?
VAUSE: That was one of the original thoughts, Leon. What happened is that the father came running out. He saw this white SUV. It matched the description of the car which the boy's mother owned. He automatically assumed that the mother was responsible for this abduction, but the local authorities here tell us that any connection between this white SUV, which was took part in this abduction, and the mother's white SUV -- well, there's no connection at all.
It's merely a coincidence, or at least that's what it looks like at this stage. So the police have totally made no connection between the mother's car and the one which was used in this abduction. In fact, the reason why there no statewide Amber Alert issued is because there are so many white SUVs out there that the CHP, the California Highway Patrol, said it would be counterproductive to issue a Amber statewide alert to try to pull over all these white SUVS.
HARRIS: Exactly. Yes, they probably would have been stopping vehicles all day, every 10 minutes or so. John Vause, thank you very much. Let you get back to work on that one. Nice job. Now let's go back to our panel and we do have with us now Carl Jeffers. He is a columnist with the "Seattle Times," and he is now with us along with the rest of our panel, Victoria Jones, Michael Smerconish, and Jack Burkman. Carl, let's let you weigh in on this one first. Like to know if the panel has any thoughts about this story that's been unfolding today?
CARL JEFFERS, "SEATTLE TIMES" COLUMNIST: Well, one thing I might add, Leon, is that I have heard an additional update that in fact the police have verified that the white SUV that belongs to the mother was in fact at her place or somewhere where -- it has been identified in Colorado during the time that the actual incident took place, so it appears that they have in fact been able to rule out the use of the mother's van as part of the incident.
However, I would also add that that does not rule out the mother, as we know now, a very popular phrase these days, a person of interest, because the thing that struck me very early this morning before even hearing the additional details was that this is not really symptomatic or typical of what we've been dealing with all summer long, with sexual predators, essentially perverts and crazed individuals.
This sounded like something that was planned with a deliberate target. They even engaged in a hand struggle. They were determined to get this particular young boy, and the fact that we're now hearing that there may have been a custody problem here, only I think lends credence to the possibility that we have to look at this as a criminal act but that not in the same category as the more notarized cases of child molestation.
BURKMAN: But you know, Leon, I think it is helpful if we situate this in some perspective. I've been waiting to do this for a time this year.
HARRIS: Quickly, if you can.
BURKMAN: I have to tell you that a lot of these child abduction cases, they are certainly tragic, the networks are doing a great public service covering them, but there is a very legitimate issue as to whether these are national or, frankly, even substantial local or regional news,
There are fewer children abducted in the United States today than 10 years ago, fewer than five years ago. The reality is more people will die in drunk driving accidents in two or three weeks on the Beltway area in Washington, D.C. than children will be abducted in two years.
HARRIS: But I got to tell you, any parent will tell you that if any child gets abducted, that is big news to them and would be to anyone in the community.
BURKMAN: It is big news to them, but what is big news to a individual is not big news in a social sense, and that does not mean it's worthy of the attention of a news organization. I realize this is controversial, but I really question whether the networks are doing this for ratings or whether there is a legitimate news value here.
HARRIS: All right. We gotta go. We have to go take a break right now. We're gonna get back on some other topics when we come back. let's keep moving now. Up next, is there something funny about the Mideast conflict? We're going to hear from a Palestinian-American who says he got the boot when Jackie Mason got top billing at a comedy club. Stay there. We'll explain that one for you.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: ...comedy club, where a Arab American comic says that he lost his gig after Jackie Mason came to town. Ray Hanania was scheduled to open up for Mason, but three hours before showtime, he says that he was told, "Don't bother to show up." Well, Hanania thinks it has something to do with the fact that he is not just Arab American, that he is also Palestinian-American. Ray joins us now from Chicago. Good to see you. How are you?
RAY HANANIA, PALESTINIAN AMERICAN COMEDIAN: How are you?
HARRIS: I'm OK. Kind of curious about this case. It sounds kinds of screwy, if you ask me. How did you find out that you were going to be unwelcome there on stage?
HANANIA: You know, I got a call a few hours before the show and told that they had bad news for me, that Jackie Mason changed his mind and decided that -- and I don't know if it was him or his people -- but that they changed their mind and they decided they didn't want me to open for them because I was Palestinian. And it was really kind of a shock, because I have been doing comedy for about six to nine months, and this was like my big performance opening.
I had a lot of friends and relatives, and I had to call these people up and tell them I wasn't going to be there, and it was just -- it was depressing.
HARRIS: Let me ask you this. Did they tell you that it was because of Jackie's decision or was it the club's call?
HANANIA: No, they said no. The club, Zanie's has been great about this. I have no complaints about Zanie's. Zanie's gave me my break, Zanie's allowed me to do this very unconventional humor in the sense that there are so few Arab-Americans out there that do comedy, and I think they need more.
HARRIS: All right.
HANANIA: Because the reason I'm doing comedy as an Arab American is because I want Americans to see us as normal people. You know, I was born in this country, I served during the Vietnam war, my dad served during World War II. It's almost like every day there's something new that comes up that I have to prove myself, like somehow I am not an American no matter what I do.
HARRIS: Let me ask you -- well, let's see if we can do this? I know we have a copy of the statement that Jackie Mason put out, because...
HANANIA: I hope it is a comedy act.
HARRIS: You tell me. Listen to this.
Jackie Mason says, quoting here, "First, I didn't fire anyone, nor have I ever refused to perform with anybody. The management at Zanie's canceled the person after being inundated with calls. This individual apparently sought to exploit the tragic situation in the Middle East with the hope of enhancing his own reputation."
And he also says, "Further, when he caused these stories to be released, we received calls from Jews who were sensitive to his publicity. I am also sure that Palestinians likewise would have been offended. Our business is to make people laugh and not be uncomfortable. I will be happy to meet with this gentleman and discuss whatever problems he has, and make him understand that a comedian is supposed to make people laugh and feel better and not get upset. Incidentally, the man was fully paid, and is scheduled to perform at the same club at a different date."
What do you say to that?
HANANIA: I love Jackie Mason. I think he's a great guy. I grew up watching his comedy. I think he made a silly mistake. It took him a day to figure out how to deal with this. They should have just let me stay on the show. This is the first I've heard of numerous complaints. I know Zanie's told me that one guy called three times saying that he didn't like some of my views, but I will be honest, I have no problem with Jackie Mason. I like him. And sometimes I wonder if these are things that are -- this is a good example of why the Middle East has problems, because people can't together, because someone's perception gets in the way, and then they prevent us from doing what we should be doing. We should be on stage together tonight and tomorrow.
HARRIS: So Ray, you mean to tell me -- you mean to tell me this with a straight face, too, that if Jackie just said, "You stink," it would have been OK with you?
HANANIA: Well, you know what? Even I'll go further. If he said he didn't want me on the stage when they first said that they had to get his permission, instead of saying no, it's OK, let's book him. I told the Zanie's club, I said I totally understand, I am a new comic, I have no problem, he doesn't know me. But that's not what they said. Last week they said Ray, go ahead, go do what you got to do, get yourself publicity.
I said would Jackie like to appear with me in some interviews? They reached out to him. His people said no. They said Ray, just do your own stuff. And that's all I did. And I will tell you what. Humor is about pushing the envelope to the edge. This isn't about Arab-Israeli politics, this is about me being Arab-American trying to let Americans know that I am normal, I am just like them, that my people are not crazy, that we are not fanatics, that we're not terrorists, we are good people, and we can be doctors, lawyers and stand-up comedians. That's what's it about, and he should have opened his arms to welcome me, but things get out of hands. I am going to laugh about this. I have no problem. This happened to him with the "Ed Sullivan Show" so...
HARRIS: I'm sure you will laugh about it when you get paid -- if you did get paid I'd be laughing about it too, if I were you.
Well, you say you push the envelope, and that is perhaps the point that Jackie Mason was making about making people uncomfortable by doing just that.
HANANIA: Well, I have never met anybody that's been uncomfortable about my humor. I have been doing it a lot.
HARRIS: I've got you.
HANANIA: And it's been going over very well.
HARRIS: All right, listen, we're going -- just hold on. We're going to talk some more about this after a break here.
But Jackie Mason, we just want to let you folks know, he's going to be a guest on "CROSSFIRE" tonight at 7:00 Eastern. That should be interesting.
Stay with us -- we're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, welcome back now.
We all know there are two sides to this comedy club conflict that's pitting Palestinian-American comic, Ray Hanania, against entertainment veteran, Jackie Mason.
Now, Mason, as we have been told, is expected to have a press conference. If you can see the screen right there, you can see that, and the press conference is being staged there at Zanie's, the club we've been talking about. And he's going to coming out, talking to reporters about what happened. And if that does happens, we're going to go there and listen to what Jackie Mason has to say, and we'll get his side of the story.
Now, Jackie Mason, as we said also, is going to be a guest on "CROSSFIRE" tonight at 7:00 Eastern, so he'll be getting plenty of air time today.
Do we still have Ray with us? Ray Hanania, are you still with us?
HANANIA: How are you?
HARRIS: All right, we've got him smack dab in the middle of the panel. I want you to listen to what these guys have to say about this conflict.
By even having this up here today as a topic on the show, what do you all think about this? Are we making too much out of nothing here?
JONES: No, no.
HARRIS: Or do you guys see it as big an issue as we do?
JONES: No. This is a big issue, because it's so sad that an opportunity for unity on stage has been blown, whether it was by Jackie Mason or Zanie's, I don't know. But the story doesn't make sense. And for Jackie Mason to say in his statement that comedy isn't about making people uncomfortable, well, of course it is! That's part of what it is. It's about making people look at themselves...
BERKMAN: Well....
JONES: ... in a funny way. And let me finish if you would. If, indeed, they were inundated with calls, which they may have been, how could that be, if Ray is, in fact, unknown? How could they be inundated with calls ahead of time?
BERKMAN: Well, that's an interesting...
JONES: If Ray is lousy, then fine.
BERKMAN: That's an interesting, logical analysis. But you know...
JONES: But this is not right.
BERKMAN: You know and I know that every time in the media, whether it's comedy or news or sports or something else, that a person is booked and then unbooked, there are frequent allegations that that is because of some reason of discrimination or politics or something insidious in the background.
The reality is we don't have enough facts. I mean, we all studied that statement...
(CROSSTALK)
HANANIA: Well, Leon, there is one difference.
BERKMAN: We don't have enough facts to know.
HANANIA: Leon, there's one...
HARRIS: Well, let's go to the man in the center here...
HANANIA: There is one difference. If you take...
HARRIS: Go ahead.
HANANIA: If you take Jackie's own statements that he said that, you know, that I was Arab and even Palestinian, that was his manager's statement. And his version of the story is that I am inexperienced and I'm not qualified to be on stage with him.
I never called anybody and said, I am being discriminated against. I started getting calls from people wanting to know they were getting calls from people who were being told, you know, at the club why I wasn't being, you know, allowed to perform.
SMERCONISH: And, Leon...
HANANIA: I never made any accusation.
SMERCONISH: Leon, can I get on this?
HARRIS: Yes, go ahead.
SMERCONISH: First of all, this fellow, I haven't heard him say anything funny yet, and he has been on with us about 10 minutes.
HANANIA: You didn't ask me to.
SMERCONISH: And second of all...
HARRIS: Oh, man! Come on, Mike!
SMERCONISH: ... he should be kissing Jackie Mason's feet.
HANANIA: I think it's the other way around.
SMERCONISH: He's on CNN live on national television.
HANANIA: I think he owes me for his publicity.
SMERCONISH: Yesterday, he was nobody. Today, he admits -- for six or nine months, he has been doing comedy, and now look at him.
HANANIA: You know something? I was...
SMERCONISH: But, listen, I have respect -- I will respect Jackie Mason if he says, hey, the guy is a Palestinian. And I don't want to appear with him, because there is tremendous Middle East conflict. I'm a Jew. I'm a cantor. As a matter of fact, I do political humor, and I don't want him on my bill, because I'm the headliner, I would respect that answer.
BERKMAN: Well, Michael is right. It's a private organization. He can do what he wants if there are legitimate business reasons. He needs to sell that comedy club. He needs to sell his act. You know, discrimination is a high standard. We have not looked inside the mind of Jackie Mason. You might know more after the interview on "CROSSFIRE."
I will say this, seeing both sides on this, if you look at the statement, the statement that you showed from Jackie Mason was clearly written by a lawyer, because it used the language "caused." And there were three or four points of very specific legal language in there. So he has -- I can tell you that he has received counsel on this.
JEFFERS: Leon, if I could add a point here...
HARRIS: If I could just jump in for a quick second, I've got to say, and I have to underscore one point that Ray was trying to make in there. There wave been, actually, two contradictory statements that have come out of the camp there. That statement that we just read that ostensibly came from Mason himself, which said it put everything on the club.
And then the statements that we have gotten here in print from Mason's manager, who says that -- and quoting here: "It's not exactly like he's just an Arab-American. This guy is a Palestinian."
JEFFERS: Leon, if I could just...
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: I mean, his manager went and underscored that particular point.
JEFFERS: Leon, let me add a point here. First of all, let's, for a second, set aside the stipulations in fact, and let's leave that to the press conference and those that question Jackie Mason. Let me deal with it from another perspective. Let's assume just for the basis of this discussion that the premise is correct. Somebody decided that he should not be on the show...
HARRIS: All right...
JEFFERS: ... because he was Palestinian.
HARRIS: Yes.
JEFFERS: First of all, the comedian...
HARRIS: Carl?
JEFFERS: Yes.
HARRIS: Carl, I've got to cut you off, because the press conference is getting under way.
JEFFERS: It's getting started now?
HARRIS: Let's hear from the man, himself.
JEFFERS: I hope to make the point later, then, OK.
(IN PROGRESS)
JACKIE MASON, COMEDIAN: I'm sorry?
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE).
MASON: Well, maybe if I sit like this, would this help?
QUESTION: Yes, there you go. Now, you're cooking.
MASON: Oh, OK. Maybe we should buy a higher chair for this occasion. How are you doing? So...
QUESTION: So you want to talk the first hour? Or do you have somebody else coming?
MASON: No, I can talk to you.
QUESTION: Tell us what happened. What about the decision with Mr. Hanania?
MASON: Which paper are you from?
QUESTION: I'm from WBBF Radio. It's a news radio station.
MASON: Oh, thank god, that sounds like a definite job.
QUESTION: Yes.
MASON: What happened here is that I was asked if I wanted a certain Palestinian comedian to work with me. Would I mind if he works with me, because he's a Palestinian? And I said, it's my greatest pleasure. I have no problem with the fact he is a Palestinian. Well, I know I have Palestinian friends a lot, and I don't put any Palestinian in any one category any more than I put any Jew in some general category.
There are Palestinians who want me to drop dead, and there are Palestinians who love me. And if it's an innocent Palestinian, who is not involved in killing Jews, and he has no sympathy for the idea of killing Jews, I have nothing against the Palestinian, because I judge him as an individual, because the opposite is prejudice. It's blank prejudice, and it's insanity.
QUESTION: But he is not in the show.
MASON: So let me tell you what happened.
QUESTION: OK.
MASON: What happened was that after I accepted the idea without any problem, I said it as a matter of course. I didn't think anything of it.
So I found out all of a sudden, the very next day or two days later, that everybody was disturbed about the fact that he was calling the press to come to the show, so that they should see how he is working with me to take advantage of the opportunities to get some publicity for himself out of it. Even that didn't bother me too much, because I said to myself, if he's trying to promote himself because he's an ambitious guy and trying to use me to promote himself, I don't see anything so terrible about that either.
If I was working with a star, and I was an unknown comedian, I'd probably try my best to see if I could get anything out of it. It's a lucky break to work with a star, and it circumvents all of the problems of trying to get some places to get noticed in this business. So it's a great, lucky break for a newcomer. I said, God bless him, let him enjoy himself.
Then, I found out that there was all kinds of stories that there was a big controversy in the nightclub, in this comedy club, about Jews complaining and other people complaining, why is he on the show with him? Palestinians are killing Jews all over the world. And why is he catering to a Palestinian? There is no such thing as a Jew working in Palestine. And there are boycotts against Jews in all of the Middle Eastern Arab countries, and they want to destroy Jews wherever they go.
And why should he give a Palestinian an opportunity to express himself on the stage? Maybe he will say things against Jews, maybe he'll laugh at the Jewish situation, maybe he'll call us names, who knows what he'll do, and why should this be happening? And a lot of people are just plain irrational and emotional at a time like this, so they are flying off the handle about this whole thing, and everybody was scared about what it could do to their business here.
And then they said, they want to cancel him, and they asked my opinion. I said, I have no opinion. You know if it's disturbing you.
It never involved me. The whole story that he's trying to create that somehow I canceled him is a plain out-and-out lie. I suppose he is just trying -- see, when he started to take advantage of my stardom to get ahead, I was enjoying myself, and I said, God bless him.
But then, he decided to go a step further. After he was canceled, he decided that my career doesn't count, and he'll try to bury me to tell the story. That's when I started to really resent it.
Now, he claims that I canceled him, which is a total out-and-out lie.
QUESTION: Who cancelled him?
MASON: Whoever is involved, they cancelled him, whoever owns the club.
QUESTION: But he has said that they didn't cancel him, that it came from your people.
MASON: Maybe they got together with my people, and they said to each other, look, -- they left -- nobody asked me. I suppose they all collectively decided, whether it's my people or the club, altogether decided -- my manager and them or the agency, whoever is involved.
HARRIS: All right, we're going to jump out of this press conference right about this time. We wanted to get to Jackie Mason's side of the story he did just there, explained what was his side of the story here.
He just basically said that the club came to him. He had heard about complaints being made to the club, and he did not stand in the way of the club's canceling. He didn't say that he was the one who cancelled it. He just didn't stand in the way of the club canceling it.
HARRIS: Ray, are you still with us?
HANANIA: Yes.
HARRIS: Ray Hanania. OK. Now, you heard Jackie Mason's side of the story. What do you have to say to that?
HANANIA: I have no problem with his version of the story. I have been very careful not to say that he cancelled me. I said it was his people that called Zanie's. According to Zanie's, they said that they objected. So I said, well, it could be Jackie or it could be his manager.
And I'll be honest. I have no problem with anything he said. What hurt me -- and again, it's me, you know, that I think was kind of treated badly three hours before the show, I'm suddenly told, with no explanation, except that I am a Palestinian, and that really bothered me.
JEFFERS: Leon...
HANANIA: Now, it would have been nicer if Jackie -- just one last thing -- if Jackie could have at least called, or his staff could have called, and instead of speaking through the club, if this were so serious of an issue, they could have said, Ray, listen, you're a new comedian. There is too much controversy. Let's move on, and maybe we can do something some other time. I would have said, fine, I have no problem with that.
HARRIS: You know what strikes me...
HANANIA: But I still had to call people and tell them I was not going to be appearing, and they were the ones that got upset.
HARRIS: Well, what strikes me is that, you know, I listened to what he said was his description of the kind of Palestinian with which he said he could work, someone who abhorred the Palestinian suicide attacks against civilians and what-not. And, Ray, I have seen works that you have written, where you have come out and stated that you are against that sort of thing.
HANANIA: I'm one of the few Palestinians who have stood up publicly...
HARRIS: Yes.
HANANIA: ... and denounced Hamas as a terrorist organization, that their murder of Israeli citizens and Jews is wrong.
HARRIS: Well...
HANANIA: I have never hesitated. Never!
HARRIS: And that's the reason why I would like to throw this out to the panel.
Do you think at least at a minimum, it would have been more fair to at least have had a conversation between these two men, for Jackie Mason to find out at least what kind of Palestinian, if I could use that terminology, that he was working with here that night?
Carl, you were starting to comment.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leon -- Leon, let me ask Ray a question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leon, let me just...
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Well, let's let Carl finish up first -- Carl.
JEFFERS: Yes, Leon, first of all, to answer your question would require all of us to adjudicate on the facts. And what we have heard is that -- and think about it this way. Jackie Mason says he did not fire the guy. The club says they did not fire the guy. But the guy, himself, says that the club was great, that he had no problem with the club, and they treated him fairly, so that would have to be considered.
But here's the one point that I want to make. Jackie Mason is one of the old-time-school of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) entertainers -- Jackie Green, all from the pokanose (ph). If you think about the audience that goes to see Jackie Mason, it's not African-Americans, it's not young Hispanics.
The fact of the matter is that I can see why Jackie Mason would have not wanted -- and by the way, Jackie Mason has been a very vocal political supporter of Israel. He might not want a Palestinian to open for him. And I think it would have been a great idea...
BURKMAN: Now, let me tell you something. Ray...
(CROSSTALK)
JEFFERS: I think it would be a great idea.
BURKMAN: What's happened here is Ray has made a snap judgment based on very little evidence.
JEFFERS: Right.
BURKMAN: I am sure there have been many times in his career where he has been cancelled on three hour's notice.
JEFFERS: Yes.
BURKMAN: He is looking for some publicity. There is no way anybody can conclude from these facts that this is a definite case of discrimination.
I will tell you something else. Allegations...
HANANIA: I never said it was discrimination.
BURKMAN: Bogus allegations...
HANANIA: Never said it.
BURKMAN: Bogus allegations...
HANANIA: I have never said it!
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Hang one. One at a time. Come on, one at a time. One at a time. Go ahead, Jack.
JEFFERS: Leon, I'm not certain that his allegations are bogus.
BURKMAN: Bogus allegations...
(CROSSTALK)
JEFFERS: I'm not certain that his allegations are bogus. What I am certain of...
BURKMAN: Bogus -- wait, you had your turn. Hold on. Bogus allegations of discrimination are every bit as bad as racism, and is discrimination that goes along with the ethnicity. To allege that...
HANANIA: I agree with that.
BURKMAN: ... falsely is every bit as bad as the racism.
JEFFERS: Well, first of all, Jack, he hasn't...
HANANIA: I agree.
JEFFERS: He hasn't necessarily made bogus allegations. You actually were in concurrence with my point, until you went off a little bit too far there.
BURKMAN: No...
JEFFERS: Here is the point, Leon, and I will let this be the last point.
HARRIS: Quickly, because we have to move on.
JEFFERS: That if, in fact, Frank Sinatra decided who opens for him, he could do that, as long as the club is not deciding that we will not hire African-American comedians or we will not hire Palestinian comedians. I have no problem with that, because that's the way we fight discrimination.
HARRIS: All right.
JEFFERS: But Jackie Mason can determine who should be able to open for him.
HARRIS: All right.
JEFFERS: And I believe we need to look at that.
HARRIS: All right, I'll let you close for us on that segment there, OK?
Before we go to break, we just want to show you one of the comments we've gotten in by way of e-mail here. This is Byron in New Jersey: "Ray needs to meet with Jackie Mason to resolve this problem." Pretty much what we were just saying here moments ago.
Ray, we'll let you go, so you can probably go ahead and try to attack that kind of a meeting. Ray Hanania, thank you very much for joining us today.
HANANIA: Thank you.
HARRIS: Appreciate it -- good luck to you with the budding career.
HANANIA: Thank you very much.
HARRIS: All right.
Coming up next: Could you put a price on your pet?
I'll tell you about a family that thinks that their cat is worth $5 million -- stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are going to keep things rolling this afternoon.
Now, with this question I couldn't wait to get to: What is your pet worth to you?
Passengers on an Air Canada flight from Toronto to San Francisco were bereft when their 15-year-old cat was missing at the end of the ride. Now, the tabby, you see the picture there. The cat's name was Fu, and Fu was one of five cats traveling with this couple.
The couple says that the airline's baggage liability is limited to just $14 per pound. The cat weighed seven pounds -- I'm sorry -- it was $14 a pound, yes. So the cat weighed seven pounds, he was worth $7, or something like that. I don't know.
But they say Fu is worth $5 million to them, and they are suing because of that.
Let's go to the panel with that one. We've lost our square in the middle, so we have lost the Brady Bunch look now.
Mike, let's start with you. What do you think about -- are you a cat owner? What would you think about this?
SMERCONISH: It sounds like that person is running a cat house with five kittens, but I'm not going to go in that direction.
HARRIS: Oh, no, you didn't.
SMERCONISH: And look, I'm funnier than that guy who you just had on here a minute ago. I can open for Jackie Mason. I have two dogs.
HARRIS: You might have a point, Michael.
SMERCONISH: I have two dogs, Checkers and Winston. They are worth $5 million apiece to me, but they should not be worth that to the judicial system.
But I'll say this, Leon, the law should be changed so that it's not simply a property value, because they are worth more than just a lost piece of luggage, and the law should reflect that.
HARRIS: All right.
BURKMAN: You know, Leon, part of the problem is you have lawyers with too much time on your hands. They don't have enough discrimination suits. They don't have enough gender suits anymore. The terror trials are dying down. Maybe there aren't enough hospitals to hang around, so now they are hanging around airports, waiting for people who have lost baggage or lost cats.
JONES: No, no, no.
BURKMAN: I mean, Michael is right. This case...
JONES: This has been going on for a while.
BURKMAN: This is a crying example for why we need federal tort reform, to put a limit and put an end to these frivolous lawsuits. They...
JONES: This isn't frivolous at all.
BURKMAN: They clog the courts.
JONES: This is not frivolous.
BURKMAN: They deny justice to real suits.
JONES: This is not frivolous. The amount of money is crazy, and they're not going to get that amount of money. But I agree with Michael. The law has to be changed.
Pets are not luggage. They are not just property. I think we all recognize by now that pets mean a lot more to us than that. And whether it's less than 5 million, which I am sure it is, or whatever it is, they have to be regarded in the light of beings, that people love and care about and mourn the loss of, rather than that they are just things, because they are not just things.
And so, if this case does nothing more than bring our awareness to that, then I am for it, and I have animals, and I would be devastated if an airline lost mine.
BURKMAN: But you see, the money is the issue.
JONES: No, it's not.
BURKMAN: You say, forget about the money, the money...
JONES: It's not the issue at all.
BURKMAN: ... the money is the issue.
JONES: No, it's not!
BURKMAN: The money is why it's on television, the money is why there's a lawyer with it.
JONES: No, it's not!
BURKMAN: The money is why a court will take time with it.
JONES: No, no, no.
HARRIS: All right...
JONES: The money isn't the issue.
JEFFERS: Leon, it seems to me -- it seems to me, first of all...
HARRIS: Really quick, Carl.
JEFFERS: I'm sorry?
HARRIS: Quickly, please.
JEFFERS: OK, it seems to me that, first of all, the only thing I am concerned about is Jack Burkman using this for other agenda things. There are plenty of discrimination lawsuits out there if he thinks that there aren't enough.
But in this particular case, listen, the $5 million is too much. It's reaching. It's not worth that. But there should be a change in assessing liability at $14 per pound for pets that is very attached to families.
HARRIS: Yes, All right.
JEFFERS: And that's how we should do it.
HARRIS: All right, we'll have to leave it there right now. We've got to go to a break, folks. Stay with us.
It's almost time for the brain-busting "Flash Round." Stay tuned for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, let's go. Take a deep breath, get pumped up, time now for the TALKBACK LIVE "Flash Round." I'm going to give you a topic, and then you give me your gut reaction.
All right, folks, first up: Workers at the Jim Beam distillery in Kentucky can't hold it in anymore. They are limited to four bathroom breaks during their eight-and-a-half hour shifts, three of those breaks are scheduled. Managers are trying to stop the workers from slacking off.
Let's go right to the panel and begin with the ladies first.
Victoria, what do you think?
JONES: This is a 19th century policy. If you've got to go, you've got to go.
HARRIS: Jack.
BURKMAN: If you don't like working at...
(APPLAUSE)
BURKMAN: If you don't like working at Jim Beam, get a job elsewhere. The bathroom regulations are up to the company.
HARRIS: Carl.
JEFFERS: Well, yes, the bathroom regulations are up to the company, and the company should be more sensitive to the needs of their workers. If they are not, the workers will do it in place. They'll be paying a lot of overtime for late-night workers to clean up the floors, too.
HARRIS: All right. And, Michael.
SMERCONISH: Hey, I was for management on this, but I've been drinking water this whole hour, and I've got to hustle up and get out of here now, so I've changed my position.
HARRIS: It makes me wonder what they have in the bathroom at Jim Beam. Is Jim Beam on tap in there?
All right, let's go. Next: A south Florida town gets a whole lot of spanking-new police cars for a $1 apiece. The deal saves the city hundreds and thousands dollars, but get this, there's a catch. You see, the police cars sport advertisements, not unlike the Nascar racers. Do you see that? Your police officer there sponsored by McDonald's.
Victoria.
JONES: I don't think we even notice these things anymore. I think actually the advertisers are wasting their money. I mean, who notices a big "M" on the police car? You just notice those flashing lights.
HARRIS: Jack.
BURKMAN: I agree -- well, some agreement with Victoria and I here. I don't think it's a big deal. I think it feeds into the issue of privatized law enforcement, and to a degree, I see nothing wrong with that.
HARRIS: All right. Carl.
JEFFERS: Personally, I prefer to see cars that are affiliated with state municipal agencies identified just for that purpose, but the one saving grace here, if you are raising money for a good reasons, let's do it. Use it for that.
HARRIS: All right, quick, Michael. SMERCONISH: I hate it. I hate it. All of this stuff is out of control, in the schools, during football games, everything is sponsored. Put an end to it. I am tired of it.
HARRIS: All right, let's see if you hate this next one: controversy courtesy of Serena Williams. She made a fashion statement on Monday in her first round match at this year's U.S. Open, but it wasn't quite a love match with everyone. One critic compared it to disco wear on the tennis court.
Did Serena go too far with this outfit, Victoria?
JONES: She has the right to wear it, but it's very sad. Her self-esteem is so low, she feels she needs to.
HARRIS: All right, let's get some yes or no answers. We are short on time.
Jack.
BURKMAN: Ditto, and I think it's part of the trash culture. It's a shame the media feeds off of it. Her advertisers love it.
HARRIS: All right, Carl, quick, yes or no.
JEFFERS: No, it has nothing to do with her self-esteem.
HARRIS: Thank you. Mike, all right, Mike, yes or no, quick.
SMERCONISH: She's hot.
HARRIS: Oh, there you go. That's good enough for me.
That's it for us this afternoon. See you tomorrow -- no more time.
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