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CNN Talkback Live
Free-For-All-Friday
Aired August 30, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, GUEST HOST: We got a loud one today. We got a loud crowd today. Listen to the dog pound over here.
Hello, everybody. I am Leon Harris. Arthel Neville is taking off today. And we are at the end of the week here at TALKBACK LIVE. And you know what that means. That means "Free-For-All Friday."
And first up, it's time to play ball. Baseball players and owners have saved the season at the last minute. But are the fans cheering? You hear that? We don't.
We want to hear from you. So call us at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail us at TALKBACK@CNN.com.
Then stay tuned, because later: reality revivals. Are you ready for the real "Beverly Hillbillies"? Check this out.
And awards are nice, but the next day the buzz is also about who showed up and wearing what. Stay tuned for some more Britney. And I mean more of Britney.
Now, let's get started with our panel. Today, we have with us from Washington, Rich Galen. He's a political columnist with Mullings.com. And Nancy Skinner with us. She's a talk show host for WLS and on "Good Day USA." She joins from us New York. Kenneth Brown is with us. He is with the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution. He's in Washington. And in New York, Santiago Nieves, a talk show with WBIA Radio, also the founder of LatinoJournal.com.
Welcome, all of you. Good to have you all with us. Happy Friday.
Let's jump right on the latest news that we have, that being that the baseball strike was averted. Baseball backed away from the brink. The deal was announced just hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUD SELIG, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL COMMISSIONER: This is a historic agreement, because it represents, for the first time in baseball history, that we have reached a collective bargaining agreement without the loss of a single game. We also believe that this agreement will make significant contributions to restoring competitive balance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Well, the deal means that they are set to play ball literally in just a few minutes at Wrigley Field in Chicago.
And where else would we find our Chicago bureau chief, Jeff Flock, but down there on the -- actually, he's not on the field now.
I saw you on the field moments ago, Jeff. What's going on where you are now?
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I had to get off the field, Leon. There were real ball players on the field.
And I'll tell you, we have been talking to folks back outside here. It's a better place to talk to fans about what their sense of it is. Well, you can look at this, the ticket windows. They're back buying tickets already. So, my question to folks is: Are you mad at baseball? They didn't strike. So that's a good thing.
And here's a guy who has got his first Major League game today, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, his very first one.
FLOCK: And are you mad at baseball or you got over this real quick?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm not sure I'm mad. But I'm not very happy. I'll put that it way.
FLOCK: The way it all kind of played out. I know. This was a real ride, wasn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I'm just real glad that they just decided that both sides would give a little and they would let the game continue.
FLOCK: Would you continue to go to ball games as you would in the past? You've got a fistful of tickets here, don't you? The wounds are healing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no wounds at Wrigley Field.
FLOCK: Well, you know, Leon, it's interesting, because this game has been tremendously resilient. And a lot of the people we talked to, they went on a real ride today.
You were what? What were you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was at USC during classes. And I kept calling my sister all morning to see if the game was on, so she could come down on the train.
FLOCK: And finally you gave him the word?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. I was standing in front of the TV waiting to hear the verdict. We're excited.
FLOCK: So you're over it. You don't hold a grudge against Major League Baseball at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I?
FLOCK: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not as of right now, no. I'm excited for the game to be on.
FLOCK: OK.
Well, that represents a lot of what we are hearing out here today, Leon. If people were upset before, since they seemed to come to some resolution, people seem to be going on with it. I guess that's good news.
HARRIS: I don't know, Jeff. You know what strikes me as I'm sitting here realizing that you are at Wrigley. You are talking to Cubs fans. These guys have been the most -- think of it. Do you know any other long-suffering fan of any sport? Well, maybe the Red Sox fans. I don't if we have any with us.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: But come on. The Cubs fans have been through hell and back with their team. They are the one set of fans I believe who would stick with their team no matter what.
FLOCK: You know, you are making a good point. OK, fine. Point taken.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: Yes. I know. And you are guilty, too, buddy. Hey, listen, by the way...
FLOCK: You got to be optimistic.
HARRIS: Listen, by the way, remember, we talked earlier this morning -- during the 10:00 hour, I think it was -- there was that one lone lady who was sitting out there on the curb by herself. Did you see her? Did she get in?
FLOCK: I know. She's long gone. She sat there for another two hours. And, finally, she's one of those in the ballpark.
This game today was not sold out. They sold a lot of tickets, day-of-game tickets. Pretty amazing.
HARRIS: Yes. Well, folks are just probably being smart, waiting to see what was going to happen.
All right, thanks, Jeff.
FLOCK: Exactly.
HARRIS: All right, let's go to the panel. Let's see what they think about this.
Is this a good thing here? Anybody care at all about this?
SANTIAGO NIEVES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Outrageous.
It's funny. The owners -- the fans are so fickle. Baseball is like a lover that does them wrong, but they keep coming back to it. It's amazing how much they hated these baseball players when a strike was warned. But now that it's averted, everybody is at the windows buying. So it's an interesting thing.
My problem with baseball really is about the money. Once upon a time, it was a people's game, poor working-class people, middle-class people. Now it's just a middle-class to middle-upper-class game. The other day, I went to a baseball game. It cost us about $200 for four people. By the time we bought some hot dogs and that kind of thing, it ended up being over $400. Families cannot afford baseball anymore. That's the shame of it.
HARRIS: Yes, we have heard that story way too many times, way too many times.
Anybody else care to weigh in on this one? Nancy?
NANCY SKINNER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Leon, you can feel my pain. I moved from Chicago to Boston, the Cubs to the Red Sox.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: God bless you, my child.
SKINNER: Thank goodness I'm a football fan and the NFL is starting up, just in time to turn it off.
But I'll tell, you know what the funny thing is? I have watched these whole negotiations, is that you have these supposedly private capitalists all arguing about how to impose a luxury tax and then distribute the wealth of the teams to those less fortunate teams. And I'm laughing the whole time, saying these are the same guys that, when it comes to public policy in America, say: "Oh, this is private enterprise. We should just let everything work out how it will."
But when it comes to their own wealth and their own teams, they want a socialist enterprise.
HARRIS: You know, it's funny you bring this up, because that had me talking this week to somebody else that we had on our show in the morning about the way these two sides have done a total role-reversal.
You had the union sitting here saying they want free-market principles to work here, and you have got the business owners saying: "No, no, no, we want socialism. We want to have a system where everybody shares everything." How do you explain something like that? SKINNER: You can't. You can't. And that's what is so funny.
And, as we were just talking about, the people who actually go to the game are spending $200 to do it. This is a private enterprise. You know what? If you can't go, let them figure it out. If those teams aren't doing so well, well, I'm sorry. That's the way it goes. If you can't afford a game, then don't go. Eventually, they're going to go out of business.
HARRIS: Actually, I would rather go to a game with Santiago. He spent $400.
NIEVES: You know, what I think also added momentum, if you will, to the decision was the public opinion. People were very angry.
I'm in New York. New Yorkers feel it. The rest of America feels it. It's a very tough time. People feel very austere. That's kind of the spirit around the country. As I said, it's around the corner of September 11. Just the timing was terrible for this kind of thing. And I think that both sides recognized that.
HARRIS: Ken, how about you?
KENNETH BROWN, ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE INSTITUTION: Well, I'm kind of contrarian.
I'm sure there's a few people out there in the audience, and probably some of my panelist friends here, that probably pay for water, probably on occasion pay more than $3 for a cup of coffee. It's America. Everything is for sale, whether we like it or not. We like that about America.
When we see other people profiting on their services and their products, we tend to have an opinion about it that obviously is going to be biased to a certain extent. But, heck, I think it's great what baseball is doing for this country. These guys have figured out a way to make a lot of money. I'm sure, if IBM had their choice to hire some of these folks, they wouldn't be hiring them.
And these baseball players have figured out a way where they can earn a living, make a living doing what they do well. And, at the end of the day, people say, well, you know, they make too much money. But, heck, that's what America is all about. Everybody is trying to figure out a way to make too much money.
HARRIS: You got that right.
BROWN: And I think that that's a good about America.
HARRIS: You got that right. But you are in a short line of sympathizers there.
Rich, how about you?
Hang on a second. Rich, start again. We didn't have your microphone up. RICH GALEN, MULLINGS.COM: Nine-and-a-half million people have been to baseball games so far this year. So somebody thinks that this is still a pretty good game, although when you listen to Bud Selig be proud about the fact that this is the first time that they have settled one of these things without a work stoppage, that's a little bit like saying: "I drove from Washington to New York and stopped at every single stop sign. What a good guy I am."
HARRIS: All right, good deal.
Folks, hold that thought.
Diane, I know you are on the phone. Hold yours as well. We'll get to you after we come back from a break.
We'll take a quick break right now. But when we come back, we still want to hear from you. Will this deal have you singing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" or is it just going to make you want to strike out? Call me or e-mail me right now.
We'll talk to you coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Coming up: to attack or not to attack Iraq, lines in the sand being drawn at the White House. The key is coalition support and timing. Where do you stand?
And the talk at the U.S. Open is not overhead shots, but overexposure. Is there a double standard in Flushing Meadows?
We'll explain after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, welcome back.
We are still talking baseball. We're talking about this 11th- hour deal. Actually, it might have been past the 11th hour, this deal that was made just a little while ago to avert a baseball strike.
Let's go to Diane, who has been waiting on the line very patiently for us.
Diane, are you there?
CALLER: Yes.
I'm happy that it was settled, because I want to see where my Twins can go this year. But I'm afraid, in a couple of years, someone with a big fat checkbook will come buy our Torii Hunter, Doug Mientkiewicz, players we have spent years developing.
HARRIS: That's right. You better enjoy this. The Twins right now are playing some great baseball. It would have been a shame if the season has ended on you guys. CALLER: They're wonderful. And they just go to show, you don't need a big payroll to have a winning team.
HARRIS: There you go.
See, you know what? That's get back to what you were talking about, Nancy, these guys with these huge payrolls and these players and owners who can't seem to find a way to be happy sharing $3 billion. And yet these smaller teams like the Twins, who were to supposed to erased about, oh, what, six months ago -- they weren't even supposed to be in existence -- and here you have them at the top.
SKINNER: There you go.
It's like in football as well. People love college football. There's something about the amateurs. There's something about the love of the game. And when it's just all soaked in money, it's not quite the same thing.
HARRIS: Yes, let me ask you all about that. Have any of you on the panel been to a minor league baseball game?
(CROSSTALK)
NIEVES: Not recently.
HARRIS: Really? I'm wondering what this is going to do for minor league baseball, because what I've been hearing from some people is just that they have been so turned off by this episode that they are going to go back to the roots. They're going to go back to minor league baseball. Do you think, in the end, this could be a good thing for minor league baseball.
NIEVES: Well, I think it's an excellent thing for minor league baseball and for baseball in terms of what we remember it being.
Here in Brooklyn in New York, there are the Cyclones. Everybody was against this kind of thing earlier, but now it's a team that is adored here in Brooklyn. I think they are thriving because of it. I think it will. I think it's a good idea.
GALEN: Yes, they will go to L.A. or something.
HARRIS: Yes, who else was that speaking up there?
GALEN: Rich.
HARRIS: Rich, go ahead.
GALEN: The issue about minor league teams, of course, it's minor league baseball.
The thing about Major League Baseball that makes it so remarkable is that the level of play is so extraordinary. It's fun to watch minor leagues. It's fun to watch little leagues. When my son was in the little leagues, those were fun games to watch, too. But there's nothing like a Major League Baseball game because of the plays that those guys make day in and day out, inning in and inning out, that just are remarkable.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: You haven't been watching the Devil Rays, then. I don't know.
SKINNER: But look at the interest, Leon, in the Little League World Series this week. What was it, last week? People were going crazy over the little league teams. It just goes to show you, those guys better watch out.
HARRIS: Billy, you on the phone there from Virginia? Billy?
CALLER: Hi. Yes, thank you very much.
This is for the players as well as the owners. That rumble you hear in the background may not just be from the players. Those are 700-horsepower stock car motors that are coming at you from NASCAR that is taking your market share. Think about it.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: Actually, he's got a good point there, Billy does. NASCAR really is perhaps the fastest-growing spectator sport here in the country.
GALEN: Yes, but it's not free to go to a NASCAR event either. It's pretty expensive.
BROWN: What's supposed to be free? I keep hearing this talk about money.
GALEN: Well, I'm taking your part. The notion of taking $400, $600 or $800, whatever it takes, to go to any major league sporting event, NASCAR or whatever, is an expensive proposition in this day and age. I'm not sure, in constant dollars, whether it's terribly expensive.
BROWN: What's expensive? It's all relative. This is a very wealthy country. People like -- for that matter, I think they like paying a lot of money for their entertainment. I think they enjoy it.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: You raised some eyebrows here with that one, Ken, I've got to tell you.
BROWN: Hey, listen, how many people in your audience just spent $20 on a C.D.? What is that worth?
HARRIS: Well, you are talking one. And I wasn't happy about that. I can tell you that.
BROWN: Well, that's my point. I'm not saying that we should put people in a pit because they do that. But, to the same extent, heck, you can't blame a record producer or a musician for selling you something for $20 if they know that you are willing to pay for it.
Entertainment is a big business in this country. It has been a big business. And I'm sorry, but I'm listening to this, but I just don't have a lot of feelings for people talking about how we should have all this emotion and concern and pathos for the money. It's been a business. It has been a business. It will be a business for quite a while. And it's just part of America. You can't separate the two.
HARRIS: We have only have a couple seconds here. I'm going to jump in and let a passionate baseball fan in the audience here speak up.
CHRIS: Go ahead, Ruth.
RUTH: I love baseball. It's the all-American game. And the Braves going to take it this year!
HARRIS: No matter what the price?
RUTH: Well, I would like for it to be affordable, because I want everybody to come.
HARRIS: You hear that one, Kenneth Brown? OK.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: OK, we're going to move on.
(BELL RINGING)
HARRIS: All right. That's the bell. We have got to move on to our next topic.
Coming up: making the case for and against U.S. action in Iraq. Who is saying what inside the Bush administration? We'll fill you in on that in just a moment.
Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And welcome back to our standing-room-only TALKBACK LIVE this afternoon.
The focus now is breaking ranks over Iraq and whether or not that is happening, and administration sources telling CNN that Secretary of State Colin Powell is once again urging President Bush not to invade Iraq unless and until there is more support from key allies. Now, for the past few weeks, we have been hearing other top administration officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, pressing the case for such an attack.
Let's toss this out to the panel. Let's begin ladies first.
Nancy, what do you make of all this and the debate that is going on right now?
SKINNER: I can't believe this statement by Colin Powell or the sources attributed to Colin Powell, Leon.
Isn't it funny that all the men who have actually been to war, it seems -- you have Colin Powell. You have the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You have Brent Scowcroft, Norman Schwarzkopf. All these men who have been to war don't want to go to war, and it's the men who have not been to war, Dick Cheney, Wolfowitz, President Bush, Richard Perle, that are so eager to go to war?
HARRIS: What does that mean to you?
SKINNER: I think they don't understand all the risks and costs, whereas the military men do. They understand, yes, we can say that Saddam Hussein is an evil man. But that one factor alone does not mean we should invade. You have the fallout effects from that. You have the costs from that. What happens? What's the domino effect of this? And will that make us more at risk than the status quo?
And I think they take all of that into consideration, and perhaps the White House does not.
HARRIS: Rich, where do you stand?
GALEN: Well, I think, if you go back to what people were saying before we invaded Kuwait -- invaded Iraq in the 1991 war, the arguments were about the same.
And the people, look, Americans do not like to go to war. We are not a belligerent people, because, for the most part, we don't want anything out of the other end, unlike some of our now allies and in previous wars. I wrote a column this morning and I said there is only one superpower on the Earth and it's us. And we never ask for anything from anybody.
But the point is that the Taliban never did anything to us specifically, but we went in and wiped them out and made Afghanistan a country again. We don't -- the notion that there has to be some kind of act against us again -- by the way, we have been attacked once -- again before we can go into Iraq I think is ridiculous. To sit there and wait for Iraq to sponsor somebody to come in and attack us before we go in and get Saddam Hussein, I think is maddening.
SKINNER: But, Rich, what evidence do we have that they are going to sponsor terrorists to come and attack us?
GALEN: Well, you and I don't have it, because they didn't take us into their confidence. But I suspect that, if you wanted to go to work for the administration, sit in the briefings in the Pentagon, there might be some evidence of that.
The point is that having a healthy debate is a good thing. That's, again, what Americans do in this administration. The last administration, I guarantee you, everybody would have lined up and said, "Me too, me three." Remember that?
HARRIS: Let's go to the phones. We have a caller waiting right now.
Robert, you there?
CALLER: Yes.
HARRIS: What's your thought?
CALLER: My thought is that we need to pay more attention to the past of, like, Rumsfeld and Cheney. I remember Rumsfeld being in Iraq at the time of the gas attacks against the Iranian came out. He said nothing about it at that time, no condemnation whatsoever. In fact, thereafter, the way was opened whereby American businesses sold components to Iraq under the Reagan-Bush administration. I remember Cheney from long ago also. These are old hawks. All they want is war. And that's what they are striving for.
HARRIS: Kenneth, what do you think? What do say about that?
BROWN: Well, there are just so many emotions all over the place.
Let me start with saying that I'm a big fan of Colin Powell. And I think it's been unfair to say he said something if we don't have a named source, if we're not really sure. He's a great American. He's out doing a really, really tough job in a tough region of the planet.
HARRIS: Well, I know the reporter who is quoting that. And she has impeccable standards.
BROWN: Well, she should name -- she should say, "I say he said it." And that's where I want to start. But, again, this is TALKBACK LIVE. I don't want to be uncontroversial. I just want to tell you how I feel.
But moving from there, look, it's a tough job, defending this nation. This nation is very, very secure. And we don't know all that goes into that. To the extent that there's so much hostility in Latin America, we don't realize how volatile that region of the world is
(BELL RINGING)
BROWN: ... be safe when it comes to Latin America.
HARRIS: All right, sorry about that. That's the bell. We've got to cut the talk on the topic there. We're out of time on that one.
Santiago, you didn't weigh in. We'll get to you on the next one, OK?
When we come back: a rare public challenge from three members of the highest court in the land. The death penalty and juveniles: Our panel weighs in, beginning with Santiago, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, thank you for joining us here at TALKBACK LIVE for "Free-For-All Friday."
The topic that we move on to now: executing convicted killers who were juveniles when they committed the crimes. A third of the Supreme Court justices want the high court to now review whether death sentences for minors are constitutional. They were unable to stop Wednesday's execution of a convicted Texas killer who was 17 when he committed murder.
Justice John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer say that they believe it's time for the high court to reconsider the use of the death penalty in such cases. And they did say this in a rare public dissent of such a case. They normally -- when a stay of execution is brought before the court, there may be a dissent, but it will be a brief one, and it's all filed. It's not usually made public. This time around it was.
Santiago Nieves, what do you think of all of this?
NIEVES: I think it's absolutely great. I think it's absolutely wonderful, and it should have had happened a long time ago. I'm against the death penalty. I don't think it's right for the feds, the state, or anyone else to kill anyone else or each other. So I'm completely against it on just about every level -- religious, ethical, moral -- and I think many Americans are. So they are happy about this decision.
And we also have to say that I'm very happy that the courts made a decision around the execution of those who are mentally disabled, and stopping that. And I think that is long overdue. I am very happy with the decision. I have no problem with it.
HARRIS: In fact, I believe those were the grounds upon which these justices...
NIEVES: That's right.
HARRIS: ... made their dissent, saying that since that court did decide it is unconstitutional to execute those who are not of full mental capacity...
NIEVES: And it is the right decision by this Supreme Court.
HARRIS: OK.
Rich, what do you think about that?
GALEN: Well, it wasn't a decision. It was three justices who have been, I think, anti-death penalty to start with. I'm not sure -- I think there probably is some age prior to which the death penalty should not be imposed. This guy was 17. He wasn't 8. So you know, it's within limits. Justice Stevens, in his dissent, said that he thought that the magic age should be 18. I'm not sure why that was or what his thinking was.
There -- obviously, I think, just common sense says that there is some age prior to which you should not get the death penalty...
SKINNER: But, Rich! Rich! Wait a minute!
GALEN: ... no matter what you have done.
SKINNER: You are saying 17...
GALEN: But I'm not sure that 17 is it.
SKINNER: Rich, we're talking about 17! We are saying...
GALEN: No, because you send 17-year-olds to war.
SKINNER: We are saying they are not responsible at 17. They're not responsible enough to drink alcohol. They don't have the presence...
GALEN: Well, they can drive...
SKINNER: They don't have the presence of mind to vote.
GALEN: They can drive a seven million pound car...
SKINNER: But you can fry them?
GALEN: ... into your backyard. They can go to war. I mean, that's just silly. That's ridiculous. That's a stupid argument.
SKINNER: No, wait a minute! They can't drink or vote, but you think they are responsible enough...
HARRIS: The draft age -- 17 is not draft age, is it?
GALEN: But they can drive a car and they can go to war.
NIEVES: Well, listen...
GALEN: Well, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) about 21.
NIEVES: I don't want to...
GALEN: I mean, the age to vote went from 21 to 18, and the age to drink went from 18 to 21. So why don't we just make everything, you can't do anything until you are 35 and be white and own land, how about that?
SKINNER: That's not what we said. That's not what they are saying.
HARRIS: I think I'd have a problem with that. NIEVES: No one is saying that they cannot -- they have to be held responsible...
GALEN: Well, they are. At 17, you are responsible.
NIEVES: ... short of the death penalty, and I think that that's the decision...
(CROSSTALK)
GALEN: At 17 years old, you are responsible.
SKINNER: Do you know what? This puts us...
NIEVES: Absolutely.
SKINNER: Do you know the company, Leon, this puts us with? This puts us in the company of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan -- I'm sorry -- Iraq. That's it. The rest of the industrialized -- the whole world does not execute young people. But why...
GALEN: Yes, but except those -- except they executed women for going to school. You are putting us on the same level with them. That is ridiculous! You should apologize to everybody right now.
SKINNER: We are...
NIEVES: You don't have to apologize to me.
SKINNER: With this decision, that's exactly where we are.
GALEN: Of course, you're not going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you, because you're from New York.
HARRIS: Ken, do you have anything you'd care to add?
BROWN: I mean, it's a tough topic. I wouldn't want to get into a threshold argument, I mean, when somebody should be responsible for whatever -- 16, 17, 18, 19. I mean, that's just a really, really tough topic.
I will tell you this, though, as far as this country is concerned, what I think is much more relevant is the amount of crime that's committed in this country by folks under 17, 18. The amount of crimes that are committed by juveniles in this country, I believe, you know, we're not the leader in the world. We are, you know, probably among the top five, and I think that's much, much more relevant, and I think that demands, you know, closer scrutiny and discussion.
NIEVES: And I think that that's important...
BROWN: I mean, why do we have all these juveniles committing crimes?
NIEVES: ... that young people have to be held responsible.
BROWN: Yes, I mean...
NIEVES: It's important. Young people have to be held responsible as much as anybody over 17 years old.
BROWN: Certainly, but I mean, is it...
NIEVES: But that's not what the court said.
BROWN: ... but what uniquely...
SKINNER: But do you have to put them to death?
NIEVES: Exactly.
SKINNER: Is that the extent you want them to be responsible?
GALEN: It depends on what they have done.
SKINNER: Can't you reform them or put them in jail?
HARRIS: Yes, well, we have some...
BROWN: But that is, in effect, a deterrent. You know, what are you supposed to do? It's a deterrent. I mean, every punishment is a deterrent.
NIEVES: Well, you know...
(CROSSTALK)
SKINNER: It is not a deterrent. It is not a deterrent!
NIEVES: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Show me what poll that was taken, what study you have in front of you that says that this is a deterrent that works.
HARRIS: Yes, that's...
BROWN: No one has that.
SKINNER: Never, there is not one.
HARRIS: ... that's a valid question that always gets asked and never gets answered.
Let's ask a man who is with us in the audience, who is obviously over 17, what he thinks about this. Vernon?
VERNON: Well, I believe that if they do the crime, they've got to pay for it. Ten, 15 years ago, it would have been different, but kids today are much more grown than you think they are. They know what they are doing.
(APPLAUSE)
NIEVES: You know, that goes to the issue of responsibility again, and again, young people have to be responsible. I hope there is no signal being sent here or anywhere else that young people have -- you know, are not responsible or don't have to be responsible. We're talking about the death penalty.
BROWN: But why does the U.S. have so many...
NIEVES: That's the...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But why does the U.S. have so many juveniles committing crimes? I think that's the larger issue. I mean, you know, let's talk about that. What's wrong with American values.
NIEVES: Well, we certainly can talk about economics. We can talk about class differences. We can talk about education. We can talk about disparity there. I'm here in New York in a school system that even the federal government and state admitted was racist in a great many ways in its process.
So you know, when you bring that issue to the table, we'd have to have a couple shows, perhaps, to talk about it, but that is, at least, some of the answers of what's happening with young people.
HARRIS: Now, we've got someone...
BROWN: I think they are just as important, because if we don't get crime in check when it comes to juveniles, we inevitably have to talk about punishment. So if you don't want to talk about punishment, then we're going to have to talk about ways to reduce the crime.
HARRIS: And the fact is you're going to have to draw the...
NIEVES: Well, I think you are absolutely right.
HARRIS: The fact is, you're going to have draw the line somewhere. You're going to have to draw the line somewhere.
We have another member of the audience, who wants to weigh in on this one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Actually, I feel that the bureaucracy that we have to go through to get development programs and assistance for our youth in our neighborhoods is what we should address, before we even consider killing them at the end, after the crime has been committed. We should address their needs with less bureaucracy in the beginning.
It's amazing how much school systems or developmental programs have to go through to actually get beneficial programs implemented.
HARRIS: But you know...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So if we can eliminate some of the hassle or the bureaucracy and the red tape to get these programs implemented, I think that would help, instead of waiting until the end... HARRIS: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... after they have committed the crime, and then consider to kill them.
HARRIS: Well, let me ask you this. Then let me ask you to respond what Vernon said just a second ago here. Would you not agree, though, that the kids today are not the same as the kids who were around at the time that statute was originally set up? Kids today are a lot more advanced and know a lot more, even if there aren't those kinds of programs and assistance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: True. And wouldn't you agree that today, we do not -- we have too much bureaucracy in the way at the beginning stages, at the developmental stages? We have to go through so much to educate or develop and provide programs that benefit children on the onset, and then we consider now the consideration of killing them is wrong.
SKINNER: And Leon...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they need to pay for the crime that they commit, but what have you done in the onset?
(BELL RINGING)
HARRIS: Oh, there you go. That's the bell. That's the bell. Thank you, Angel (ph) -- appreciate that.
All right. We've got to move on to the next topic now, and talk about changing gears. This is going from one end of the spectrum to the other, believe me.
Remember Jed, Elly Mae, Jethro, The Clampetts and of them -- Granny? Well, a television network goes on the hunt now for the real Clampetts. But should they?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And still ahead: Who was hot and who was not at the MTV Video Music Awards last night? We'll talk fashion do's and don'ts coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE.
And: Why not help choose the next Miss America? Pageant officials want your pop quiz questions. What would you ask the contestants?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK, we're just making fun with folks. That's OK. It's Friday. It's free-for-all Friday.
Now, let's get to the next topic. Reality-based shows, a big hit on TV, everybody knows that. So is it any wonder that networks are now looking to remake certain shows with people who have never taken any acting lessons before in their lives?
Case in point here: CBS and "The Beverly Hillbillies." Right now -- right now, crews of casting agents are scouring the mountains of five southern states, looking for a family of five or more, hopefully it's a family of five who gets along. The idea is to move them to Beverly Hills for a year.
Now, the question is: Is this comedy, or is this just a big insult, a slap in the face, a kick in the butt to people who live in the south?
Nancy, let's begin with you.
SKINNER: Oh, come on, Leon, we don't have to work too hard at this one, do we? They are scouring...
HARRIS: It's called a softball.
SKINNER: Listen to this, though. They are scouring, looking for a world family that struck oil, and then made it to the big leagues. I'm thinking that Jethro is President Bush, Uncle Jed is the senior President Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
SKINNER: Hey, hey, Leon, how about this? Is Miss Hathaway -- Miss Hathaway is Karen Hughes. We've got it! Granny is Barbara Bush. I mean, Mr. Drysdale is Dick Cheney. I mean, we don't have to work at this. This is...
HARRIS: Do you know how hard it has been for to us get interviews with Republicans? You just killed us. Now, we'll never get them.
NIEVES: I think it's shameful that they should be even thinking of something like this. They should be thinking of something really where families or Americans really adore and respect families, and people, like "The Anna Nicole Smith Show" or "The Osbournes," that's a great example of what we have out there.
Come on, let's face it. You knew this was coming. Everything of this kind of thing is on television at this point.
And the problem that I have here -- I mean, there is a class issue here, and you know, there's an essential thing about kind of a fish out of water that's inherently funny about this. But it's the class issue they're going to have to walk.
You know, I live in a city, where a reporter years ago was laughed at for going out in an investigative report in her homeless makeup, if you can believe it or not...
HARRIS: Yes.
NIEVES; ... with the teeth, et cetera, it was hilarious. "GQ" magazine, I remember years ago, got some of what they call themselves bowery (ph) bums, and this was silly romanticism, dressed them up, and you know, high couture. And then the next day, they were out in the streets. That's the damage that could be caused here, I think, that could maybe mitigate or lessen the sad fact...
HARRIS: Yes.
GALEN: Oh, please!
NIEVES: ... that many people in this country...
GALEN: Oh, please!
NIEVES: Let me say that many people...
GALEN: Oh, save us.
(CROSSTALK)
NIEVES: Let me finish this. Let me finish -- that many people in this country are -- let me finish.
GALEN: Oh, yours is the city they came up with heroin -- what is it called -- not heroin sheik (ph). What's the phrase?
HARRIS: Well, the fashion -- yes, that fashion...
NIEVES: Think of the phrase that you wanted to...
GALEN: Yes, I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
NIEVES: But let me finish my thought.
HARRIS: Rich, do you really think it's OK...
GALEN: Let me just finish my thought.
HARRIS: ... to make money off the -- you know, the idea of just the entire nation...
NIEVES: Well, that's the point. Not only making money...
HARRIS: ... getting together and laugh at somebody about?
NIEVES: Well, it's not only making money, but it's also deriding these people. And let me say that most people on welfare in this country are not blacks or Hispanics, but poor whites in this country. So I think it can be a very offensive show if you're not careful. It can help to mitigate that reality among Americans.
GALEN: As opposed to...
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: All right, go ahead -- Rich, go ahead. GALEN: Let me make the point that one of the stars of one your shows, James Carville, has just been hired to play a cartoon character, which is a redundancy, I think most people would believe. But that's -- but in this environment, in this culture, what we do -- I mean, that's the -- I mean, people need to be able to laugh at themselves and laugh at other people. And that business about either we're all too poor and we're all too -- oh, come on. Let us alone.
NIEVES: The danger is that we might laugh...
(CROSSTALK)
GALEN: If you don't watch -- you don't watch it, that's fine.
NIEVES: The danger is that we might be laughing at other people, and I think that is a danger.
HARRIS: Instead of laughing with them, yes.
GALEN: Oh, it's not a danger. Everybody should be able to laugh. I laughed at you earlier.
(LAUGHTER)
NIEVES: Wait a minute.
HARRIS: Hey, listen, OK, on that note, let me ask you. We have only a handful of southerners with us today as a matter of fact. In fact, those of you who are even outsiders standing up. How many southerners do we have with us this afternoon? All right. How about a show of applause, so the audience at home can hear.
(APPLAUSE)
HARRIS: All right, all right. How many do you think this is a great idea? A show of applause. Ooh, I hear crickets now.
OK, here's a southerner here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if you look at all of the southerners or persons on television, movies, that have a southern accent, they are all played as idiots.
NIEVES: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is not a popular thing to complain about, but some of us are a little sensitive to it. I think it would be a whole lot more funny, if they took an Archie Bunker type and put him in Beverly Hills.
HARRIS: Take him back to my house, you mean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But...
NIEVES: Hey, a better idea. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... just because you're from the south doesn't mean that you are particularly stupid, or that you would do worse in Beverly Hills than someone from the Midwest or even -- I'm sure there are even poor people in California that could just move down the street to Beverly Hills, and we could laugh at them, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it adds to a certain stereotype.
HARRIS: There you go. You see, there you go. And there you go, you got it straight from a southerner's mouth on that one. Now...
NIEVES: That's right. And he agreed with me.
GALEN: I'm not sure if Florida counts as the south, however.
HARRIS: I don't know. I think they might disagree with you on that one there.
NIEVES: I think so.
HARRIS: But I do think that...
(BELL RINGING)
HARRIS: Oh, I think that's the bell. We'll leave it at all. All right.
We're going to move on. We've got much more to talk about, folks.
Now, from that one, we're going to talk about something that actually was on television, the MTV Video Awards last night. Stay tuned if you didn't get a chance to watch the show last night, because you will want to see and hear the buzz on Britney, the dominatrix. Check out this outfit, and a lot more when we come back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, welcome back to a free-for-all Friday.
Oh, the performances, the winners -- that's why we used to watch award shows. Well, lately it's all about who is wearing what?
And after last night's MTV awards, the buzz has been all about Britney. You know, the pop star little girls look up to? Now, a lot of older men are looking up -- or looking down at and whatever -- anyway, that's a different story.
And she was there last night. You see her there in this rather grown-up outfit. And she did thrill the audience quite a bit. Let's see if she thrilled our panel.
Anybody want to weigh in on this one? What do you think about the show last night, and some of the outfits that some of these people had the nerve to show up in public in? GALEN: I remember last year, when J. Lo came in that dress, and somebody asked me what I thought. I said, it's time for her to admit she put it on backwards. You know, I think anybody who watches MTV...
HARRIS: It might not have made a difference.
GALEN: ... the MTV Awards show would watch "The Beverly Hillbillies" show. I mean, that's the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That's the product, and that's the audience, that's the customer. If you watch it, you're a customer, and you can hate it, but you're a customer, that's what you're buying and that's what you're looking at.
HARRIS: Yes, let me...
BROWN: And that's what people want to sell you if you are a customer, if you turn to MTV, you fit the profile, and they're going to sell what you they think you want to buy. That's what everybody else is buying that's watching MTV.
HARRIS: You know, that has been your message all afternoon: let the buyer beware. Huh?
BROWN: Oh, it's not just that, I mean, I just think it's -- it's American pop culture. I mean, we've always had a fascination with Hollywood. And unfortunately, everything is Hollywood in this country, to a certain extent. Everything is kind of entertainment. I mean, even politicians to a certain extent -- I mean, in their private lives and personal lives and what they wear.
I bet you if the president was to wear something funny or crazy, CNN would cover it. Why? I mean, you know, it's...
HARRIS: I can promise you...
BROWN: ... because people think it's news.
HARRIS: I can promise you if he wore Jennifer Lopez's outfit, we would cover it. I'd be...
BROWN: But seriously...
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: And I would be the first guy in line with a microphone, believe me.
BROWN: But seriously, though, people want to...
NIEVES: What about Michael Jackson's outfit, though?
HARRIS: All right, well, let's get... NIEVES: What is -- I don't understand what the Michael Jackson outfit, the top part was kind of a doorman, nut cracker thing going on.
HARRIS: Hey, listen, hold that thought, hold that thought, hold that thought. We've got the tape. You don't have to describe it. We've got the tape. This is television. Let's look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: When I was a little boy in Indiana, if someone had told me -- if someone had told me that one day I would be getting, as a musician, the Artist of the Millennium award, I wouldn't have believed it. This is really amazing. I can't believe it. Thank you so very much. But there's a couple people I have to thank who made this possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SKINNER: Hey, Leon, that's...
BROWN: Thank you for cutting that right there.
HARRIS: Now, I've got to tell you...
SKINNER: Leon, isn't that like a cross between Napoleon Bonaparte and Luke Skywalker -- that outfit?
NIEVES: I like that, I like that.
SKINNER: Napoleon-Skywalker?
HARRIS: Well, listen...
NIEVES: And the bottom was like Gladiator or something, I'm not sure.
HARRIS: But here's the funny thing -- well, as if there could be something funnier than that. But the funny thing about this is that, as I understand it, he wasn't really receiving an award. It was supposed to be just a little birthday gift that he was getting, because the show happened to be on the date. And of course, we've got a little moonwalking into the wall there to boot. So he gave us a show along with the thanks.
NIEVES: What was it, artist -- it was an artist for the millennium award or the millennium artist award or something. You know, the host said last night that Michael Jackson looks good for 44, and I think for an alien, he's look great for 44.
GALEN: Yes, I think one of the people...
BROWN: People have been leaning...
GALEN: One of the people he was going to thank was going to be his plastic surgeon, I'm sure. BROWN: People -- you know, people have been leaning on Michael Jackson for so long. I mean, the guy takes a ton of pressure. I mean...
HARRIS: Well, he leaves the door wide open, Ken. He leaves the door wide open.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I think he's a guy...
NIEVES: He doesn't deserve it, of course, right?
BROWN: Give the guy a break.
(BELL RINGING)
HARRIS: All right, quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just going to say, you know, if you've got it, flaunt it, and Britney has it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And second, if you had a wife that looked as good as she did, you would want your wife to dress that way, too.
HARRIS: Only at home. Only at home. Only at home. Only at home. Only at home. Do you hear that, Dawn (ph)?
All right, when we come back after the break, the free-for-all "Flash Round."
Now, let's get a preview of what's coming up on "INSIDE POLITICS," so we can catch our breaths. Here is Judy Woodruff.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right, welcome back. Get ready, fasten your seat belts, time for the high-speed gut check of the TALKBACK LIVE "Flash Round."
First up, we go to the U.S. Open. Tennis player, Tommy Haas, was forced to change his shirt before a match, when an official felt that his sleeveless shirt look was not appropriate. Meanwhile, Anna Kournikova and Serena Williams, they were serving up in these barely- there looks, and that went totally unchecked. There you see Serena.
Is that a double-standard or not? Let's throw it to the panel.
Rich?
GALEN: Yes, of course, it's a double-standard. I think the U.S. Open is desperately trying to become the British Open, and they're going to have umpires with British accents and serve strawberries soon. HARRIS: Nancy.
SKINNER: All male athletes should be forced to show their biceps, Leon.
HARRIS: Oh! Ken, go ahead, Ken.
BROWN: No, it's not a double-standard. I don't pay that much attention to it.
HARRIS: There you go -- let the buyer beware.
Santiago.
NIEVES: It's not a double-standard. I thought, Ken, you'd say -- it's an easy one. It's an absolutely blatant double-standard. It's ridiculous.
HARRIS: All right. There you go. Let's move on now.
A Baylor University frat was suspended for a year after some members there posed fully clothed in "Playboy's" Big 12 issue. Actually, I'm hoping it was a sorority that did this, not the frat. Anyway, the school says the students violated the sexual misconduct policy, and added insult to injury by wearing their school logos while in they were in "Playboy."
Is this misconduct, or is it just much ado about nothing?
Nancy.
SKINNER: This is not even boys behaving badly, Leon, I'll tell you. Religion is starting to scare me.
HARRIS: Rich.
GALEN: It was a fraternity. And when you go to Baylor, you know why you are going there. It's a religious school, it's a private religious, and they knew that they were promoting an issue that was going to show naked girls of the Big 12.
HARRIS: All right.
GALEN: So that's OK with me, but not OK with Baylor.
HARRIS: OK, Santiago.
NIEVES: That's absolutely wrong, and if I were the students' lawyers, I would be looking for a big fat case. They're stepping on all of their rights, not least of which is their right to free speech, among other things. It's ridiculous.
HARRIS: All right, real quick, Ken.
BROWN: Baylor University is another brand. They have a right to manage it however they want. And if they don't want their students doing it, they don't have to.
HARRIS: Oh, too bad. We didn't get the chance to talk about this school that has Satan as its mascot. But we'll have to hold that one for the next time. Yes, I'm not kidding. That's a real story.
Rich, Nancy, Kenneth and Santiago, thanks for joining us today. Out of time.
GALEN: Thank you.
BROWN: Thanks a lot.
HARRIS: Leon Harris, glad to be here this week filling in for Arthel Neville. She is back next week. Have a good one. Have a nice holiday as well.
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