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American Morning

Interview with Martha Burk, Seth Davis

Aired September 02, 2002 - 07:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get to the world of golf this morning now. Augusta National is sacred ground in the world of golf, home to the sport's most prestigious event. That's the Master's Tournament. The Georgia golf club has become the target of women's groups as of late, seeking to change Augusta's all male membership policy.
To that, the club's chairman says there may be a day when women will be invited to join the club, but that decision must be Augusta's.

Martha Burk, chairwoman of the National Council of Women's Organizations, has been leading the charge against Augusta. She's with us live this morning from Washington.

Good morning to you.

Nice to have you with us.

MARTHA BURK, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS: Good morning.

HEMMER: And from New York City, "Sports Illustrated's" golf writer, Seth Davis, who thinks that women are off course on this topic.

How are you, Seth?

Good morning.

SETH DAVIS, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: Listen, we asked the chairman of Augusta and the representative of CBS also to join us this morning. They declined that invitation. Nonetheless, though, set the record straight off the top here, Augusta National did release a statement, Hootie Johnson saying, "We insist that our private club should not be managed by an outside group. There may come a day," as I just said, "when women will be invited to join our club, but that decision must be ours." That's the end of the statement.

Martha, tell me this, what's wrong with Augusta making its own rules?

BURK: Two words, the Master's. It's the highest profile golf event on the planet. It's very public. We think the time for discrimination against any group, women in this case, is past. You know... HEMMER: How are they, how is Augusta discriminating?

BURK: They are not allowing women as members, just as Show Creek, 12 years ago, didn't allow African-Americans. Golfers, sponsors, TV networks pulled out of the PGA Championship broadcast because of it. We think they should do no less in the case of women now.

HEMMER: Seth, that's her point, discrimination. Do you see it the same way?

DAVIS: Well, I guess I'm supposed to be the chauvinist pig role this morning, so.

HEMMER: You don't have to be.

DAVIS: No, I only play one on TV, I promise.

HEMMER: It's Labor Day so you can do what you like.

DAVIS: I just, obviously I'm sympathetic with Dr. Burk's organization. I think, you know, she advocates a great cause. I just think there's a difference between discrimination and political correctness and, I'm sorry, I do not believe that this rises to the level of discrimination. And I do think, and it's not politically correct to say this, Bill, I do think there is a qualitative difference between a club that doesn't allow women members and a club that doesn't allow black members.

Believe me, if Augusta National had as a rule on the books no black members, there's not a single PGA tour player who would play in that event. There's a difference.

BURK: And they should not...

HEMMER: What do you think about that, Martha? What is the difference?

BURK: And no exception should be made in the case of women. I mean that is my point. I'm sorry that my colleague here does not think that sex discrimination is, rises to the level, as he put it, as race discrimination. But I think 125 million women in this country would disagree.

DAVIS: I'm sorry, Dr. Burk, that's not what I said. I am certainly not saying that it's OK to discriminate against women and it's not OK to discriminate against blacks or a religious group. I just don't think that this meets that definition and I think that if this were...

BURK: Well, it met...

DAVIS: Excuse me, Dr. Burk. My opinion is if this were an issue of discrimination, why aren't you protesting Pine Valley, the country club in New Jersey, which is a very high end club, Burning Tree in Washington, D.C. doesn't even let women on its property, much less be members of the club. And the National is by definition an exclusionary club.

Believe me, I don't have any better chance of being a member of Augusta National as you do at this point and...

BURK: But it's not because of your gender.

DAVIS: ... and I just don't know what we're fighting for here.

BURK: It's not because of your gender.

DAVIS: Yes, they discriminate against people who don't have money. I think that's what the real injustice is there.

BURK: Well, no, I don't think so at all. I think that's a silly argument, actually, and in regard to the other clubs, of course we're against that discrimination that they engage in.

HEMMER: Hey, Martha, how about this...

DAVIS: But you're not doing anything about it is what I'm saying.

BURK: Well...

HEMMER: Yes, I don't want to get in between you two...

DAVIS: Why do you protest...

HEMMER: ... but I just, just to push it along a little bit, Martha, are you surprised that Augusta even responded to -- essentially you wrote a letter back in the first part of the summer, back in June, saying, you know, this is a policy that you disagree with and should be ended. And they have, in essence, said, you know what? You stay out of it. We're going to privatize ourselves. We don't need the commercial dollars. We don't need the money on television. We can run our own ship.

When that happens, ultimately what's the impact on the Master's and the tournament?

BURK: Well, ultimately the impact is they've made the decision to pay somewhere between $5 million and $12 million, we don't know what this broadcast costs, but the members are going to pay that. That's the price they're willing to pay to continue to discriminate against women. And I think that's a very poor statement for this club, for its membership and actually for the game of golf.

HEMMER: What would it mean, then, Seth, if Augusta said all right, the doors are open, women come on in, we have our first female member and here she is and they, I don't know, they walk her out on the 18th green or something like that?

DAVIS: They problem would.

HEMMER: You think they would? DAVIS: Well, you know, I think obviously at some point they're going to have to allow a female member. And if I may be slightly cynical here, I think one of the results that happens there is that Dr. Burk and her organization lowers its profile. And I think that in her wildest imagination, she could never have imagined that Hootie Johnson would play into her hands the way he has.

And let me just make one point, Bill. One of the reasons why the Master's is such an alluring tournament is because when you're at the Master's, you really do feel like it's 1930. They are the least commercialized event of their kind in the world. And while I think it's very hard to sympathize with their position on this, and obviously it's not an easy position to argue, I do like the fact that they have not bowed to commercial pressure. There's only four minutes of commercials per hour anyway and, you know, I think you take the good with the bad.

HEMMER: So you have to wonder, Seth, Martha, if the next target is CBS. And maybe we can save that for another time.

We're out of time. I apologize about that. But an interesting debate.

Martha Burk, thanks for your time, in D.C.

BURK: Thank you.

HEMMER: Seth Davis here in New York City from "Sports Illustrated."

DAVIS: Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: We'll talk again.

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