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CNN Talkback Live

Will Americans Like the Taste of McDonald's New Fries?; Will Implanted Microchips Protect Children?; Who Will Win `American Idol'?

Aired September 03, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST, TALKBACK LIVE: Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Right up front, there is a possibility I could get emotional during this show. Here is the question: Could McDonald's be jumping out of the fat and into the fire? The fast-food giant is making a lot of fry fans, like me, nervous as it changes the way its famous, delicious French fries are cooked. It's cutting down on the processed fat used to deep fry those delicious babies. Do people who eat at McDonald's want a healthier fry, and will they be getting one they like? We'll find out.

And then, stay tuned. We'll talk about using tracer chips to protect children from kidnappers.

And later: will "American Idol" bring lasting fame to either Justin or Kelly? I want to know who you're rooting for.

But first, let's check in with CNN's Chicago bureau chief Jeff Flock. He's sniffing out reaction to McDonald's new fries.

Jeff, you know he what? I want them to stay the way they are.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: You know, you are not alone out here based on the people we have been seeing. The biggest concern from folks we talked to today is: they're not going to mess with the taste are they? That is what they want to know.

And I've been looking all day also, Arthel, and have not found anyone coming to McDonald's for health food. And I think it's fair to say that's not really what we're talking about. The next step is not McTofu, I think, at McDonald's. But this is their attempt to try to make things a little better.

NEVILLE: Yes, but I don't know about that. So have you had a chance to talk about -- to a bunch of people out there, Jeff? What about you? Do you like McDonald's fries?

FLOCK: Well, now, you know, that is not fair, to put me on the spot right now.

NEVILLE: Oh, dang. OK. FLOCK: I must tell you that, if I look down here, you will find a bag of fries, but this is purely for demonstration purposes. So there you go.

NEVILLE: Of course. You're doing your job. You're doing it well, of course, Jeff.

All right, well, listen, of course, this is all going to start at the end of the month. And there is going to be a whole rollout process all the way through February, which is going to include not just the fries, Chicken McNuggets, Filet O' Fish, hash browns, crispy chicken sandwich. So, we're going to find out more reaction from everybody. And I want to thank Jeff Flock for joining us in Chicago today.

Thanks, Jeff.

FLOCK: Thanks, Arthel. Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, on the phone right now is Ann Rusniak. She's the chief nutritionist for McDonald's. And I want to invite Ms. Rusniak to the show.

I want to welcome you, Ann. How are you?

ANN RUSNIAK, CHIEF NUTRITIONIST, MCDONALD'S: I'm great. How are you doing?

NEVILLE: Ann, I'm little concerned. I love McD's fries and you are changing them. Why are you doing that?

RUSNIAK: Well, I have great news for you and McDonald's customers. We have created a new cooking ill that will dramatically reduce the bad fat and dramatically increase the good fat in our French fries.

NEVILLE: OK, Ms. Rusniak, I hate to interrupt you, but I am going to have to do that right now.

We have a developing story out of New Orleans.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

NEVILLE: Right now on TALKBACK LIVE: Should McDonald's change their recipe to make healthier French fries?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no point in changing the way something tastes. Just be healthy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: And then: Are under-the-skin tracer chips the answer to child abductions?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least your parents know where you are. And then the bad point of it is, you can't go places where you're not allowed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: I have to admit that I actually do supersize McDonald's fries. It's the only thing I supersize.

Welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

We're talking about McDonald's French fries because the company has announced that it is going to cut some of the fat. We are talking about the transfatty acids in the French fries.

Now, on the phone with us is Ann Rusniak, who is the chief nutritionist for McDonald's.

And, Ann, you were assuring me that the good news is, you are going to cut the bad fat out of the French fries. But the fries will taste the same, you are saying.

RUSNIAK: Well, I have really good news for you, Arthel, as well as McDonald's customers.

We have created a new cooking oil where we are able to dramatically decrease the bad fat and dramatically increase the good fat. And the good news is, we have been able to keep the same great taste. We have done extensive research on this. And customers love the flavor of these new French fries.

NEVILLE: But, Ann, why did you do it?

RUSNIAK: Well TFAs are very common in the foods that we eat every day. And we have been following the research on TFAs that show that reducing them is beneficial to heart health. So, over the past couple of years, we have been working with our partner to create a formulation where we could increase the good fat and decrease the bad bat.

NEVILLE: So, you are increasing the good fat, you're saying. This is not going to make you skinny by eating these fries suddenly.

RUSNIAK: The calories and the fats of our French fries will remain the same. We have just increased the good fat and decreased the bad fat.

NEVILLE: But the reason, I understand, Ms. Rusniak, is because you are trying to decrease the transfatty acids that causes the arteries in the heart to clog. And, to me, if you have heart trouble, you should not be at McDonald's anyway. So I say leave the fat in, the bad fat and all, for those of us who just want to enjoy these great-tasting fries.

RUSNIAK: Well, the fries are still great tasting. But the experts agree that reducing TFAs is the right thing to do for heart health. And we are actually on our way to eliminating them. And we are proud to say that we are the first in our industry to do this, and even despite the fact that we already had the lowest levels of trans- fat and saturated fat in our French fries.

NEVILLE: OK.

Now, let's see. This is going to happen -- come the end of the month, we should be able go to McDonald's and taste the new and improved fries, same taste.

RUSNIAK: We will begin doing this in October. And it will be complete by February of next year.

NEVILLE: Because you are also doing it to the Chicken McNuggets, filet of fish, hash browns, crispy chicken sandwich as well.

RUSNIAK: That's the good news, is that we are able to provide the same great taste in our Chicken McNuggets, our hash browns, our crispy chicken because we're using the same oil and, again, are able to achieve significant reductions in the bad fats and increase the good fat in all of our fried products.

NEVILLE: Ann Rusniak, one final question for you. What if this doesn't work? What if the people say they don't like it and they tell you that by not buying the fries?

RUSNIAK: We have done extensive research showing that we in no way have changed the taste of our French fries. And America's French fries just got better.

NEVILLE: OK, Ann Rusniak, we will see. Thank you very much for joining us today.

And with us now is Dr. Margot Wootan, director of nutrition policy at the Center for Science in the Public Interest; and Melanie Wells, senior editor at "Forbes" magazine.

I want to welcome both of you ladies.

MELANIE WELLS, SENIOR EDITOR, "FORBES": Hi.

DR. MARGOT WOOTAN, DIRECTOR OF NUTRITION POLICY, CSPI: Thanks for having us.

NEVILLE: You know what? Margaret Wootan, I already said I don't think it's a good idea. How do you see this?

WOOTAN: You know, it might not have mattered back in 1970, when we didn't eat out that much. But now we are eating about twice as many of our meals out at restaurants as we did in the past.

And so the nutritional quality of restaurant foods really make a difference. So, it's important that restaurants offer healthy choices, provide good nutrition information, and, like McDonald's, maintain the taste of their products, but make them better for your heart and your health.

NEVILLE: So, Melanie, is this going to work? Ms. Rusniak just told us that the taste of the fries won't change. So will this work, because there is that whole idea of the subliminal effect there? We have already been told: They are changing it. They are changing it.

Even though we hear they are saying they are not going to change the taste, but somehow the mind and the taste buds might play a trick on us.

WELLS: Even if these taste exactly the same as the old fries, a lot of people will think they taste different.

This is incredibly risky. French fries are probably the most popular item on the McDonald's menu. They are taking a huge gamble. I just keep thinking New Coke here. Coca-Cola years ago did a lot of consumer research, like McDonald's has done. And consumers said, "Hey, we like the taste of New Coke better than old Coke." So Coca- Cola came out and said, "We've changed the formula."

But they didn't ask consumers, "Do you want us to get rid of the old stuff?" And McDonald's may be in for a surprise here.

NEVILLE: But here, McDonald's, Ms. Rusniak was just saying that, in essence, they are not really getting rid of the old fries. She is telling us that they are going to taste the same. But in terms of just the whole marketing strategy behind this whole campaign here, now, would it be a really bad thing and could it backfire on McDonald's if in fact these French fries, the new fries new and improved fries, just fail?

WELLS: Absolutely it could backfire. This is going to be huge for McDonald's either way.

If these French fries are a hit, it's going to be great. And McDonald's needs that. However, if they don't work, this is going to be an enormous black eye. They are messing with a product that we love. And even if they taste exactly the same, some people will think that they don't, because they are different.

And cooking oil is the element in French fries that affects taste. And I find it hard to believe that they can change the oil and not change the taste.

NEVILLE: Yes.

WOOTAN: This change is really important, because heart disease is by far the leading cause of death for not only men, but also for women in this country. And transfat and saturated fat clog arteries and cause a lot of heart disease in this country. So, it is worth a small amount of risk to try to reformulate the product in order to reduce heart disease in this country. WELLS: But, you know, TFAs aside, it does come down to taste. People who eat in fast-food restaurants don't want healthy foods. If they did, they would stay home and eat salads.

WOOTAN: Oh, that is not true. People want to eat at McDonald's. It is convenient. It is cheap. I just ate at McDonald's last week, because my daughter likes to go in there and get the newest toy.

(CROSSTALK)

WOOTAN: People are conscious of health. Most people, actually most Americans are interested in health. They want to have healthy options on the menu.

NEVILLE: You have to admit, when you go to McDonald's, usually, you kind of say: "You know what? Health at this point doesn't matter. This is good just stuff. I want to eat it. And I want the little Happy Meal toy."

WOOTAN: No, they have a lot of healthy stuff on the menu.

NEVILLE: That's true.

WOOTAN: They have the fruit and yogurt parfait, which is doing well. They have a grilled chicken sandwich. They do offer some healthy options, which have done very well.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Hang on. I have got Kelly from Massachusetts. Hang on for me, guys.

KELLY: You mentioned they took out a certain kind of oil. And I just want to know what they did add to it to make it taste so good. I read a book recently called "Fast-Food Nation." And it talked of the flavors industry. And so I just wondered, what kind of chemicals have you added to make them taste so great?

NEVILLE: Well, that probably would have been a question for Ann Rusniak. She is no longer on the phone with us.

But someone is on the phone. And that would be Michelle from California.

What do you say, Michelle?

CALLER: Yes, thank you for taking my call.

To me, McDonald's French fries are like baseball and apple pie.

NEVILLE: Like what?

CALLER: Like baseball and apple pie.

NEVILLE: Oh, I see. CALLER: I remember my dad and I ordering an extra fry just to share on the way home. And at that particular memory, I am not concerned about my health, but a family tradition, which I thought McDonald's was a part of. And knowing that something has changed in McDonald's to me means that that memory has changed.

WELLS: I think she is on to something there.

WOOTAN: Well, actually, the fries are probably different from when she was a kid, because the first time McDonald's reformulated their French fries was in 1990, where they changed from cooking from in beef fat to cooking in vegetable shortening in order to reduce their customers' risk of heart disease. And the French fries did great. People kept eating them. There were very few complaints.

But it helped to improve Americans' health and to reduce their risk of heart disease.

WELLS: You know, let's not forget that they have tried this before. Have we all for gotten the McLean Deluxe, which flopped in 1996, and the McBLT?

NEVILLE: Let me get two quick audience reactions, quickly.

Go ahead, Michelle.

MICHELLE: Nobody eats McDonald's French fries for the health value.

NEVILLE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am also concerned with the long-term use of this new oil, if it leads to other possible...

NEVILLE: Side-effects of that. Interesting, interesting, interesting.

Margot Wootan and Melanie Wells, thank you so much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

WOOTAN: Thanks.

NEVILLE: And up next: You put a LoJack on your car, right? Well, how about a tracer on your child? Think it over. Give me a buzz. E-mail me.

And we will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody.

OK, here's a question for you. How far would you go to protect your children? What do you think about implanting a microchip under their skin so their movements can be tracked on a computer? Well, a couple in England is doing just that to their 11-year-old daughter. The tag is about the size of a grain of rice. Now, its inventor says the chip won't prevent abductions, but might improve chances of finding kidnapped children while they are still alive.

Here to talk about is Scott Silverman, president of Applied Digital Solutions. His company has developed a tracing device which has been implanted in several people in this country. Also with us in London is Michele Elliott, founder of Kidscape children's charity. She is a child psychologist and former teacher.

And welcome to both you.

SCOTT SILVERMAN, APPLIED DIGITAL SOLUTIONS: Thank you, Arthel.

MICHELE ELLIOTT, FOUNDER, KIDSCAPE: Thank you.

NEVILLE: All right, Scott, listen, first of all, how does this work, first of all? It is the size of a little rice grain. Is it in the shoulder? Where is it implanted?

SILVERMAN: Well, first, I have to make one correction, Arthel, to the comment that you made.

NEVILLE: Oh, go ahead.

SILVERMAN: The actual product that we have today is a product called VeriChip, which is the world's smallest human microchip, the only human microchip...

NEVILLE: All right, now don't do a commercial, Scott. Get to the point. Come on now.

SILVERMAN: ... that is a pure verification system.

NEVILLE: OK.

SILVERMAN: We have another product Digital Angel, which is a GPS wristwatch, which is an external device.

What the product that you're talking about is a product called PLD, which stands for personal locating device, which we are currently doing research and development on. And we'll have a prototype of that product by the end of December, which will be an implantable GPS tracking device for children, amongst other applications as well.

NEVILLE: OK. So, Scott, how does this work? Is it implanted in the shoulder, the one that we are talking about here, the...

SILVERMAN: The implantable GPS device is approximately 1.25 inch radius by 0.75 inch height. It is little bit larger than a quarter. And it is proposed that it will be implanted in the clavicle area or the shoulder area of the person that is receiving the microchip.

NEVILLE: So, it is a little bit larger than a quarter, you said?

SILVERMAN: That's correct. NEVILLE: I understand this 11-year-old girl Daniel who is having it done over in England, now, I understand that she has to undergo total, full anesthesia. And she is out, right?

SILVERMAN: Well, first, let me say that the article that was on CNN.com today regarding a Dr. Warrick (ph) in London is not related to our company, Applied Digital, at all. In fact, we have no contact with the Duval (ph) family. We have no contact with Dr. Warrick.

NEVILLE: OK, I'll tell you what. Let me get Michelle Elliott in on this conversation.

Michelle, you are with Kidscape out in London. And I understand that your take on this is that the problem here is that the GPS device could provide a sense of false security for the child, because, suddenly, the child might think: "Well, gee, I am safe. They're going to find me. And I can just kind of go wander off." Basically, we need to stick to the basics, you say, right?

ELLIOTT: I think we need to stick to actually teaching children what to do in any kind of an emergency.

And the idea that you would implant a child with this indicates that the world is such a terrible, dangerous place that they cannot possibly be out on their own and mom and dad have to track them everywhere. And that simply isn't true. I don't know what the statistics are in the United States, but in England, we have 13 million children. Between five and seven children are very tragically abducted and murdered a year. That has been consistent over the last 25 years.

What are we doing to kids? We are making them feel like they can never go out in the world without us.

NEVILLE: Here I have George from Oklahoma.

GEORGE: I kind of like the idea of having a watch like that, but Big Brother watching me without me wanting it in my body -- and then what about getting it out of your child, or when they don't want it in their bodies? Maybe they are 18 now.

NEVILLE: Exactly.

That's what I wanted to ask Mr. Silverman;.

What do you say to that? Suddenly, 11-year-old Daniel, one day she is going to be 18. And, certainly, she doesn't want everybody tracking her every move.

SILVERMAN: Arthel, a couple of points.

No. 1, the procedure is purely elective. It is parental choice. We are not forcing anyone to do it. And by no means should our technology be taken as a replacement for parent-to-child awareness or education. This is backup technology that, if parents and children and the family unit decide it is pertinent in their particular geographic region, for their particular social environment, then it will be available to them.

NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have more specific questions that I hope I can get answered after the break. I've got to take a break right now.

I want to know what you think, too. Would you implant your child with a chip?

We'll continue the debate after the break. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Well, we just got an e-mail from Eileen in Florida. She says, if a chip helps find my child, she'll do whatever it takes.

Welcome back everybody.

What we're talking about is using embedded microchips to keep tabs on your children, and our guests are Michelle Elliott and Scott Silverman.

But this is not about, oh, let's make sure if we tell our child that he or she is punished, we need to know where they are and make sure they're, like, on house arrest. That's not what this is about.

This is about in cases of emergencies, in case missing children, child abductions -- something like that.

Listen, what I'm going to do here is I have three people from the audience here. I'm going to let them ask a couple of questions and see if we can get some answers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I don't have a question. I just have a comment.

NEVILLE: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That I have a pacemaker, and if it saves my life -- I mean, I don't know it's there. I have had two of them. I am working on my third one. So I think if it saves a child's life, that's very important.

NEVILLE: Do you have grandchildren?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

NEVILLE: Would you have that done to your grandchild, or would you recommend that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think so, and explain to them, you know, this is not going to work 100 percent. You've got to cooperate with it. And parents still have a responsibility.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. And the other concern is -- and maybe Scott can answer this -- that we'd like to know if you -- if this is installed in the child, can you take it out at some point? Because suddenly, when the child is 18, they don't want some sort of tracking device in their body.

SILVERMAN: Well, Arthel, in theory, that is the plan with PLD. Again, let me reiterate, we will not have a prototype of this product until the end of December of this year. However, with the VeriChip which is the microchip about the size of a grain of rice, that can be removed within a matter of seconds under a physician's care.

NEVILLE: OK. And, Michelle, you heard that response, I know. And this is the concern. I think you had the same question, right, Terry (ph)?

TERRY: Well, I was just wondering about the size of it. Is it going to be detectable by anyone to where they could even take it out, say, an abductor or someone...

NEVILLE: No, if it's surgically implanted, I don't think they can take it -- well...

SILVERMAN: That's correct, Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Patty (ph)?

PATTY: The concern I had was, what type of side effects are there when you do have this implanted? I mean, you're talking kids that are 2, 3, 4 years old, the size of a quarter is a pretty large size into that size of a child. What type of side effects would there be?

SILVERMAN: Well, again, we haven't done any studies on the PLD product itself, but on the VeriChip product, we have several humans within the United States today that have the product inside of them.

And the animal version of that microchip has been available for eight or nine years, and the side effects have been very limited. Anything we do...

NEVILLE: How is it reacting in people, though, because it's new to humans?

SILVERMAN: Well, Arthel, so far, it's fine. I have one in myself. I'm one of eight people here in the United States to have one, and there have been absolutely no side effects whatsoever.

But I need to be perfectly clear that everything we do from a technology perspective at Applied Digital is done with regulatory authorities in mind and making sure that it meets all of the appropriate standards that are necessary.

NEVILLE: Now, Scott, can you answer this? Help us understand here. Is this a 24/7 tracking device? Is it activated all of the time, or is it something that's activated in case of an emergency? How do you recharge the battery? SILVERMAN: Well, with the PLD device -- which is, again, currently under research and development, so these answers are subject to that -- it is a rechargeable battery that is done externally outside of the body, similar to the pacemaker. Your guest who brought up the pacemaker.

NEVILLE: OK, then...

SILVERMAN: It's a very similar process to charging a pacemaker.

NEVILLE: Then, let me let Joan (ph) explain to us how that happens. How does that work when -- do you have to recharge your pacemaker? Do you mind answering?

JOAN: No.

NEVILLE: OK.

JOAN: No, I don't. No, I don't recharge it.

NEVILLE: Yes, how does that work?

JOAN: Well, it's just replaced.

NEVILLE: Oh.

JOAN: When the battery runs down, then they replace it.

SILVERMAN: Arthel, there is a new version of a pacemaker that can be charged externally outside of the body, and it's the same technology that we'd be using with PLD.

NEVILLE: And, Terry (ph), you've been listening to this as well. I'm just wondering if any other thoughts floating through your mind about this.

PATTY: I have a question. The research that has been done, has that been done on children, or has that been done on adults?

SILVERMAN: Well, the VeriChip research that has been done, not the PLD research. The VeriChip research, again, which is the small microchip for financial security and identification applications, is currently in seven humans and one child. The child is 13, recently turned 14 years old, I believe.

NEVILLE: So can yours be taken out?

SILVERMAN: Yes, absolutely.

NEVILLE: And it calls for another surgery, right?

SILVERMAN: No, not surgery at all. The VeriChip is an implantable microchip that is done by injection and not by surgery.

NEVILLE: I see.

SILVERMAN: And it's a simple procedure to remove it with a slight cut of the skin by a scalpel and simple removal.

NEVILLE: Do you have any idea of how this other GSP chip is installed, inserted into the body or implanted?

SILVERMAN: Well, it would be surgically implanted. Again, the plan is in the clavicle or upper shoulder area, because of the ability to attract the GPS signal with the antenna that would actually be in the microchip or a subset of the PLD itself, and also because of the availability for space in the body in the clavicle area.

NEVILLE: OK, Michelle, you are over there in London. Let's see if you have some information about this GSP chip we are talking about here. Do you know if it's going to be activated 24/7? Or if it's only activated in cases of emergencies?

ELLIOTT: It's supposed to be activated by a mobile phone or by computer, if you want to activate it. I presume it's going on 24 hours a day.

I still have real concerns and fears about this. You almost have the feeling, and I'm sure this is not true of your other guest, that people are cashing in on the fears of parents, and that this is a huge overreaction. I can't imagine children being sort of plugged in at night, recharged and then sent out into the world. You might as well stay with them all of the time, if that's what you're going to do.

SILVERMAN: Arthel?

NEVILLE: OK, hang on. I've got George from Oklahoma again.

GEORGE: I am concerned about what is the cost. And if there is no prototype until December, then what is he wearing? Why isn't there a prototype now? And is that cost going to escalate or...

NEVILLE: But we are two different things here. Remember that Scott is talking about his VeriChip, so that's a different thing. So I don't think -- Scott, you can't answer how much this GSP chip will cost, right?

SILVERMAN: The PLD product has not been priced yet, obviously. VeriChip, we have tentative pricing of $200...

NEVILLE: OK. I've got to take an e-mail...

SILVERMAN: ... and a 9.95 a month fee.

NEVILLE: How much is -- is there an e-mail coming up, guys? Great.

This is from Nikki in Tennessee. She goes: "I disagree with the tracking device. I'm from the old school of raising children. Parents need to be more careful about their children and keep them at their sides at all times."

Thanks, Nikki, for that e-mail.

But, Michelle, is that a little bit unrealistic, though, to have the child at the side at all times?

ELLIOTT: Well, it's interesting, I was talking to a mother in Scotland last week. She still drives her 24-year-old son everywhere. She takes him to work. She collects him. At what point do we let children go out?

I agree with your last e-mail writer. You teach children practical skills. You give them a list of people that they are allowed to go with. Anyone not on that list, they check with mom and dad.

NEVILLE: OK.

ELLIOTT: In England, we teach -- in Britain, we teach children to run, yell and tell, and that will be with them all of the time, in case they are not charged up with this microchip.

SILVERMAN: Arthel...

NEVILLE: OK. Final word from Joe in Arizona.

JOE: Well, I've got a question about privacy issues. Who is going to maintain the database? Who is going to be responsible for it when something happens? And how do we protect an individual's rights to keep this information from getting into the wrong hands?

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Quickly, Scott.

SILVERMAN: Yes. For two years now, Arthel, we have specialized in personal safeguard technology. In fact, the application that we are now talking, the child application, the abduction application, is only one of the applications.

For years, we have been working with South American partners in order to develop a device of this type for the rampant kidnapping and abduction down there, and as a result of this, we have a very secure database called the GBS Registry or the Global VeriChip Subscriber Registry...

NEVILLE: OK, so a secure database.

SILVERMAN: ... where the only information -- providing information is the subscriber himself or herself.

NEVILLE: OK. And we were wondering, though, who is getting that information.

OK, listen, I am out of time, clearly.

Michele Elliott, Scott Silverman, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Up next: Idol worship. Who would you vote off the stage? Would it be Kelly or Justin? Or do you even care? The debate over "American Idol." We'll be right back in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE, will it be Kelly, or did Justin steal your heart?

KELLY CLARKSON, CONTESTANT: So I went and I tried out, and I didn't even know what it was.

JUSTIN GUARINI, CONTESTANT: I want to be real. I want to be touchable.

NEVILLE: They both want to be stars. But is "American Idol" a sure path to fame?

TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

Well, guess what? Tomorrow night, we'll all know who will be the "American Idol." Only two are left -- oh, yes, there he is -- Justin Guarini and Kelly Clarkson. They have outlasted weeks of competition, the last of some 10,000 rock-star wannabes, who took a shot at instant fame. Whoever wins will put out a single and an album.

But even the producers of the show agree, "American Idol" could end up a 15-minute wonder.

Well, here to talk about talent and fame is an original American idol, a member of the original Supremes, and someone who has lasted way beyond 15 minutes, who knows all about fame, Mary Wilson.

MARY WILSON, ORIGINAL SUPREME: Hi there.

NEVILLE: Mary Wilson, thank you so much for being here.

(APPLAUSE)

WILSON: Thank you. It's good to be here. I mean, yes, right.

NEVILLE: Here is the question, though. I mean, really, is this the way to really get into the music business, or at least -- obviously they can get in -- but can it last?

WILSON: Well, you know, I think there are many, many ways of getting in, and this is a great way. Had we had this way back in 1960 -- no, 1959, you know, maybe we would have become stars sooner.

But I think it's great, because you have an immediate audience, whereas when we started out at little clubs, you had just the people who were there. So it's a great way.

NEVILLE: OK, but... WILSON: And who knows? I mean, who would have thought that rock 'n' roll would have lasted all of these all these years? I mean, it's been 43 years.

NEVILLE: Now, here, certainly I don't want to be the naysayer here, but let's talk about this "American Idol" thing that, yes, I hear what you're saying that definitely this is a way to have access to -- instant access to millions of people.

WILSON: Millions, yes.

NEVILLE: But is there something to be said about that instant fame, kind of almost just add water and stir kind of theme?

WILSON: Well, they do need to be nurtured. One thing about Motown artists is that we had people like Atkins...

NEVILLE: Cholly Atkins.

WILSON: ... Cholly Atkins and Maxine Powell, who taught us etiquette. And in fact, Mrs. Powell said, "One day, you may be performing before kings and queens," and we actually did. But it was because that they taught us how to sit, you know, to talk, and all of these kinds of things.

So if these young people are on the show, as long as the companies are backing them, will give them that nurturing that they need to show them how to present themselves, they can last.

NEVILLE: Mary, what...

WILSON: Who knew the Supremes would last all these years, 43 years?

NEVILLE: Wow! And look at how good you look. You look amazing. You look wonderful.

WILSON: I am a grandmom.

NEVILLE: Oh, congratulations. You look beautiful.

WILSON: Yes.

NEVILLE: Hey, listen, tell us, though, what would you say to Kelly or Justin to -- what should they do to stay afloat, to stay in the business?

WILSON: I think this applies to any business or any career that you enter, and that is to enjoy what you do, learn everything that you can about your craft, and make sure that you surround yourself with the right people, and invest your money and read those contracts.

NEVILLE: Yes, absolutely.

Hey, Elizabeth, from New York, what do you say? ELIZABETH: I don't think it's going to last, because if you look at the groups from, like, Making the Band or even the Spice Girls that were put together that didn't work their way up from the bottom, they didn't last at all. Who remembers O-Town even? I couldn't even think of the name for a couple of minutes. And they had one or two singles, and then, they just went nowhere. It's not going to last.

NEVILLE: But, Mary, isn't that how it worked, like with the Primes and the Primettes? I mean, wasn't it the process that you got a group of singers you guys had to audition? Tell us how it happened back then.

WILSON: Well, when we started singing back in 1959, it was the beginning of rock 'n' roll. I mean -- and so, many things were new.

But one thing that we did was we practiced a lot. We tried to go to all of the live performances and perform there, get a lot of experience behind us, because what's going to really make you last is how much you know and how well you do it. And that could add to your longevity.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Listen, I have a few more questions for you from audience members, but I have to take a break right now.

WILSON: OK.

NEVILLE: So we're going to stick around with Ms. Mary Wilson and the original "American Idol."

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: She can't live without you. Can she live without fame? Will she have to? She probably won't.

Mary Wilson, what do you think about Kelly, quickly?

WILSON: Well, I think that a lovely voice, a very pretty girl, and this is something that I would like to pass on. You can have talent, you can be beautiful, but it takes a lot more than talent and beauty.

And this is something that I think that the younger artists need to know, so that they understand going in that, you know, you might be pretty and have a great talent, but you've got to give something else. Dedication is hard work. It's not all glamour. You know, once you're on stage, you may be glamorous...

NEVILLE: That's right.

WILSON: ... but everything else up to that. Let me tell you, Arthel...

NEVILLE: Actually, you know what? You are going to want to hear this final question. I only have time for one last one. WILSON: OK.

NEVILLE: You're going to want to hear this.

WILSON: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When is the next CD?

WILSON: Well, actually, I am here in L.A. recording, as we speak now.

And I want to mention that I just launched a female girl stamp. It's sold across the world, and it's with the Shirelles, the Chantels, the Ronettes. Look me up on my Web site, www.marywilson.com. OK.

NEVILLE: All right, that's what we wanted to get out there. Mary Wilson, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

WILSON: Thank you.

NEVILLE: You're welcome.

WILSON: OK.

NEVILLE: The audience, they love you. OK.

OK, guys, with us now is Toure, a contributing editor to "Rolling Stone" magazine.

Toure, you know, I love saying your name, Toure.

TOURE, EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: And how are you, honey?

Hey, and author, by the way, of a new novel, "The Portable Promised Land."

Also here is Mo Rocca, a correspondent on Comedy Central's "The Daily Show." Hey, what's up, Mo Rocca?

MO ROCCA, CORRESPONDENT, "THE DAILY SHOW": Hi. How are you?

NEVILLE: All right, guys, who is it going to be -- Toure, you're up first --Kelly or Justin?

TOURE: Who is it going to be? I think everyone in America is losing. This is a terrible program.

ROCCA: No, no, no, absolutely not.

NEVILLE: You know what, Toure?

TOURE: And barely -- and do you know what else, Arthel?

NEVILLE: Go ahead. TOURE: Barely any of them can sing. I am shocked that this is the best American unsigned talent that we have. We're all we are in trouble.

NEVILLE: Toure?

ROCCA: Toure!

TOURE: I could walk around Brooklyn...

ROCCA: Toure, Toure, Toure!

NEVILLE: No, no...

(CROSSTALK)

TOURE: ... five fingers better than that.

NEVILLE: Toure, can I just say if I were here, or you were with me, I'd give you a high give. I thought I was the only one.

ROCCA: No.

NEVILLE: I mean, I felt like an outcast.

ROCCA: No...

TOURE: I know.

ROCCA: ... Arthel, Arthel, Arthel...

NEVILLE: Go ahead, Mo, Mo, Mo.

ROCCA: No, listen, I have to say, this is a lot -- about a lot more than music. What "American Idol" really is about, I think, is the revitalization of American democracy.

According to the data that I have collected, more people will end up voting in this competition than will vote in the midterm elections in November. And so, I think it's a really strong rebuke to those who would say that the young voters of America are apathetic.

NEVILLE: All right, listen, guys, I have to take a break.

TOURE: This is...

NEVILLE: Hang on, Toure. I have to take a break.

Before we continue, Judy Woodruff wants to fill us in on what she has planned today for "INSIDE POLITICS."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK, welcome back everybody.

We are talking about "American Idol." And Amy from New York has something to say.

AMY: Hey.

NEVILLE: Hey.

AMY: I just wanted to say that Kelly Clarkson should win, because she has so much class in for the music business. And the only people that are going to vote for Justin with his stupid hair is the teeny boppers who probably don't even have enough money to buy CDs from him.

NEVILLE: All right. Thank you.

ROCCA: Arthel?

NEVILLE: Go ahead.

ROCCA: I absolutely agree with that. I...

TOURE: Who are calling that "stupid hair?"

NEVILLE: No, no, Toure, Toure, listen, you have great hair, Justin does not.

TOURE: Thank you, honey.

NEVILLE: Mo Rocca, what were you saying?

ROCCA: No, I just want to say, I am, indeed -- I am not paid by Kelly's campaign. I am endorsing Kelly. I voted for her every week.

TOURE: Oh, lord!

ROCCA: And Justin...

TOURE: I can't hear Mo.

ROCCA: Justin does drive me a little bit crazy. There is a part of me that would like to drive a stake through his heart, and I don't mean to sound harsh.

NEVILLE: Toure, what Mo is saying is that he thinks Kelly should win, and that Justin should just go -- can you hear me, Toure?

TOURE: Here. If you talk...

NEVILLE: All right, listen....

TOURE: Are you talking to me?

NEVILLE: Yes, I am talking to you, Toure, if you can hear me now.

TOURE: I have nothing in my ear.

NEVILLE: OK, he can't hear. Listen, that's... ROCCA: Toure refuses to listen to how important this show is.

NEVILLE: No, no, it's not his fault. Listen, so you are saying that Justin -- I think -- I've got to tell you. I don't watch the show, really, but I see the clips. I'm kind of aware of what's going on here.

ROCCA: Yes.

NEVILLE: And I think Kelly will probably win. That's my prediction.

ROCCA: Kelly should win. I mean, I'm a little concerned, everything that these people -- that these candidates say can be held against them. And last week, Kelly complained that she was tired of the competition part. And to me, that was the equivalent of Al Gore sighing in the first debate. It could be something that defeats her in the end...

TOURE: Yes.

ROCCA: ... if the voters hold that against her. We will see.

NEVILLE: Toure what do you think about that?

TOURE: You know, Arthel, I think that democracy is important in politics. I think in art, it has absolutely no place. When you have a large group of people making a decision like this, they can only hope to make the worst decision, and voting Tamyra off was clearly the wrong decision.

ROCCA: No...

TOURE: She was obviously far better than everyone else...

(CROSSTALK)

ROCCA: No, Tamyra screwed up that Patti LaBelle song. That was her Chappaquiddick. It really was a disaster...

NEVILLE: Nobody can sing Patti...

ROCCA: ... and she...

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: Nobody can sing Patti but Patti.

OK, quickly, Jason, you get the last word.

JASON: Yes, I just got to say, Mo Rocca, you rock.

ROCCA: Oh, I appreciate that.

JASON: And Kelly should win, too.

ROCCA: Yes.

JASON: Because Justin...

ROCCA: If you want to vote for me, call 1-800-idols-03.

NEVILLE: Toure, you rock, too. Mo Rocca, you rock. Everybody rocks.

All right, we're out of time. Mo Rocca and Toure, thank you so much for being with us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And thanks to all of you for watching. I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be here again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE.

"INSIDE POLITICS" is next.

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