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CNN Crossfire
Is There Excess in Jack Welch's Retirement Deal?; Animal Rights Group Takes a Shot At Airline's Weight Restrictions
Aired September 06, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER, CROSSFIRE: From The George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, tonight.
Wretched excess in the executive suite. How can the rest of us get sweetheart deals, like GE's Jack Welch.
We'll also look at the hazards of over-indulgence. Animal rights' groups, apparently, will make fun of you on billboards.
First, get ready to indulge in the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The United States Congress, today, returned home. No, not to the majestic Capitol that's housed our Congress since Washington, D.C. was built, but to its original home, New York City. It was a largely symbolic session held in historic Federal Hall on the site where George Washington was inaugurated our first president, only four blocks from Ground Zero.
After they finished praising the heroism of the union men and women in fire and police departments in New York, Congressional republicans are expected to return here, to Washington, where they will try to use the new Homeland Security Law to screw public employees' unions. Symbolism is one thing. Right-wing politics is quite another.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: You know, Paul, even when it comes to fighting terrorism, the unions demand their pound of flesh, and I guess, Democrats, like you, will do whatever the unions tell you to do.
Since he entered the White House, George W. Bush has become accustomed to arm-twisting members of Congress with considerable success. Today, he twisted some international arms on the phone with French President Jacques Chirac, Chinese President Jiang Zemin and Russian President Vladimir Putin.
All oppose military intervention in Iraq. Any one of them can veto a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing a military effort to get rid of Saddam Hussein, and tomorrow, President Bush meets with one leader who supports him, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. It's good news that President Bush is seeking broad international support.
BEGALA: It is, but I wish he would actually seek broad American support. He hasn't even persuaded his own party. He needs to come us and make the case.
Well, "The Center Daily Times" of Pennsylvania has dunked right- wing blowhard columnist Ann Coulter, calling her quote "either a hater or a hypocrite" unquote. Course, that's wrong. Coulter is both. Here's proof.
Coulter is a hater. Coulter recently endorsed terrorism saying, quote "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to 'The New York Times" building." Unquote. Coulter is, also, a hypocrite.
"The Washington Post's Reliable Source Column," today, reports that Ms. Coulter, apparently, fibs about her age. While Ann-Thrax, as the Web site media whores online dot com calls her, she claims her age is 38. "The Post" notes, though, that her birth certificate, her voting records and her Connecticut driver's license all indicate her age to be 40.
While Coulter sold her book about lies to media tells, I didn't know it was autobiographical.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, where I came from in Illinois, it was considered ungentlemanly to challenge a woman when she showed you how old she was. I'm really ashamed of you and surprised at you on that.
In the primary elections this coming Tuesday, the nastiest race is the New Hampshire Republican Senate contest. Incumbent Senator Bob Smith ran briefly for president in 2000, and he briefly left the Republican party when he found no party support for him. That's where he's being challenged by Congressman John E. Sununu, not the guy who used to be on CROSSFIRE, but his son. The Democrats had a dog in this fight. They want Big Bob Smith to win because they think they can lick him in November. The bad news for Democrats, Sununu has got a double digit lead.
BEGALA: He's also, if he wins, going to have to face popular Governor Jeanne Shaheen. Jeanne Shaheen is going to beat either one of those guys like a bad piece of meat. Go, Governor Shaheen.
In the "Now They Tell Us!" department, a former aid to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has publicly attacked Arafat for rejecting the peace deal brokered by then President Bill Clinton. Former Palestinian cabinet member Nabu Ammer (ph) has written a public letter asking quote "Didn't we throw mud in the face of Bill Clinton, who dared to propose a state with some adjustments? Were we being honest about what we did? Were we right in what we did? No, we were not. After two years of violence," he continued, "we are now calling for what we rejected."
In time, I expect to see apologies, like this one, from everyone who threw mud in Bill Clinton's face, starting with Ken Starr and finishing, say, with my pal, Bob Novak.
NOVAK: My friend, you may have a very long wait for that.
The debate season started early in New Jersey, last night. Tough battle hardened Democratic Senator Robert Torricelli versus an unknown Republican businessman named Douglas Forester. This once seemed a cinch win for Torricelli until he was censored by the Senate Ethics Committee.
Two problems for the Senator emerged last night. First, normally liberal journalists just couldn't resist working him over. Second, much as Torricelli tried to talk about Social Security and prescription drugs, he couldn't get the focus off his ethics. Unless he can change the subject in this campaign, the torch is toast.
BEGALA: The voters in New Jersey are going to have to decide whether they're more concerned their own problems, which Bob Torricelli can help them on, Social Security, prescription drugs, or Torricelli's mistakes. I think they should vote in their own interests and keep Torricelli.
NOVAK: Despite today's show of solidarity -- excuse me -- of solidarity in New York, Congress is anything but solidly behind the idea of a U.S. attack on Iraq. Democratic congressional leaders have toned down their rhetoric after getting secret briefings from the president, vice president, defense secretary and CIA director. But how long will it take for the political war over Iraq to heat up again?
First in the CROSSFIRE, tonight, former Democratic Congressman from California and former Gore campaign Chairman Tony Coelho and former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania, Bob Walker.
Tony, how are you?
BEGALA: Gentlemen, both, thank you very much. This is a whole lot of intellectual wattage here and political talent, so I'm going to get right to it.
Mr. Walker, there is a sort of theory going around in Washington that perhaps, just perhaps, the Republicans are speeding up this debate about going to war in Iraq because they believe it will benefit them, politically. I have to say when I first heard it, I was very skeptical. I always want to believe the best, particularly about this president who's from my state of Texas.
(CROSSTALK)
But look at the evidence, on January 18 of this year, to be exact, Carl Rove, my friend from Texas, gave a speech where he said we're going to take the issue of war to the voters. On June 4, a memo that Carl had written got leaked to the press. It was a PowerPoint presentation he'd left in a park and somebody picked it up and put it in the press. The first thing it said is we're going to focus the election on the war. And, now, in today's newspaper, we pick it up, and here is Mitch Bainwol, the executive director of the National Republican Senate Committee, and here's what the Republicans' campaign director says, "It is perfectly fair game to talk about national security records. We'll see these issues gain salience as we get closer to the election." Now, why does a political hack know that the war is going to become more important as get closer to the election?
FMR. REP. BOB WALKER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I don't think it's a question of the election. It's a question of the danger of Saddam Hussein. The fact is that this is a guy who is a danger to the world. He's a danger to us. Democrats have rightly said that the president, before he goes to war, ought to take this issue before the Congress. I agree with that. Former President Bush did it. It was a courageous thing to do.
I think it that it's right for this president to do it, but that vote actually should take place prior to the election because Congress will probably go home. I don't think there will be a lame duck session. Congress will probably go home. The president needs the authority to act.
And so I hope that there is a vote that takes place, and I would hope that it's not an issue because everybody in the Congress lines up behind the president of the United States and says that it is time to do what we said we were going to do in 1998 in the Iraq Liberation Act, and that is get rid of Saddam Hussein.
NOVAK: Tony Coelho, I never thought of you as a conspiracy theorist guy, but...
FMR. REP. TONY COELHO, GORE CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: You thought a lot of other things.
NOVAK: Let's not get into that. But, you know, there is just a theory going around here that the president was suffering because of Enron and corporate corruption, economy not so hot. And so we changed the subject and got on this debate on Iraq. The debate on Iraq started because people who are very non-political, like General Scowcroft and others, Larry Eagleburger said this was not a good idea. And the president had to defend his position. Wont you agree this is something that just happened naturally? Wasn't planned by Karl Rove.
COELHO: I'm not sure I can. I think, Bob, you're protesting too much. You know, the president, only a few weeks ago, said this is a hype by the media. All of a sudden now, we have a president and the vice president saying this is the most important thing in the world today. We've got to deal with it. This is a 10-year-old fight. He can't solve his father's wars.
I mean, let's -- he has to convince us that something has happened in the last few months that is different than what it was 10 years ago, or it's going to be different than what it -- let me finish, Bob -- different than what it's going to be a couple of months from now. Why is all of a sudden this Iraqi situation so much more important than the war on terrorism and everything else? Something is going on.
WALKER: Bill Clinton called it extremely important in 1998, and Congress backed him with the Iraq Liberation Act. What's changed since then? I don't know. Has Iraq been liberated? I don't think it has been and...
COELHO: It's obvious (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it hasn't changed since then, why are we so exercised to do something, today? That is the issue.
WALKER: Because the situation...
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: It's not whether or not Saddam Hussein should go out.
BEGALA: Go ahead, Mr. Walker.
WALKER: The situation has become increasingly worse, and we do have intelligence information that indicates Saddam Hussein is beginning to gain capabilities that could cause him to do something very, very nasty in the world. I think the president of the United States needs to act. It's too bad in some past wars, going well back into this century, that people did not act before the time when nasty people did very bad things in the world.
BEGALA: Last night, we were privileged to have on the set Duncan Hunter, one of the most intelligent, a very conservative member of the House of Representatives, next in the line to be the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. He has access to intelligence data that you men used to in the Congress, that I used to in the White House, don't anymore. He said it will be three to five years before Saddam Hussein has a nuke. That seemed to me to be particularly pessimistic. Why, if it's three to five years away, do we have to vote before the election. Excuse me if I'm a little skeptical of the timing.
WALKER: Saddam Hussein admitted, himself, just a few months ago, that he had more than 5,000 units of bio-chemicals that he could use. So we know that he possesses, by his own admission, things of mass destruction. And so he doesn't have to have nukes in order to cause severe problems in the world. And I think that we're worried that he may just go ahead and do it.
NOVAK: Tony Coelho, let me quote somebody who is not very partisan. He's a Republican, Porter Goss, a Florida Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, great friend of Janet Reno, great friend of Senator Bob Graham, not a partisan Republican at all. On Novak...
COELHO: He's a partisan, but he's a good guy.
NOVAK: On "NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS," we taped him, today, to be shown at 5:30 tomorrow night. Mark Shields and I listened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 5:30 eastern?
NOVAK: You can see the whole show, tomorrow. Well, let's just listen to one thing he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PORTER GOSS (R), FLORIDA, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Knowing Saddam's track record, what kind of a person he is, the efforts to harm Americans and the other capabilities he has is enough to grab our attention and say we've got to do something about this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Do you disagree with that?
COELHO: No. I don't think the issue is Saddam Hussein. I don't think the issue is bringing this man down. The issue is, what has happened in the last few months that all of a sudden it has to be done now, right now. And as Walker says, has to be done before the election. I don't think...
NOVAK: You mean the vote before the election.
COELHO: The vote. I don't think that anything has really changed dramatically, in the last few months. This man needs to be brought down. That is not an issue. But why all of a sudden is it so critical to do it now. And that is something the White House has to convince the American people and hasn't yet.
BEGALA: On that thought, and Bob Walker, hold your fire for just one minute. We're going to take a quick break.
Tony Coelho and Bob Walker. In a minute, we're going to ask our guest about some of the other landmines confronting our Congress, including how the president's handling or mishandling of the economy, and his attempt to pack the court with right-wing ideologues.
Later, when 16 million isn't quite enough. And our quote of the day comes from someone who's lost his job and wants some extra special help from the government.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
NOVAK: "It's important to remember in the Senate, what goes around comes around." Your party's buying a heap of trouble for the future, when the tables are going to be turned, aren't they?
COELHO: Don't forget, Bob, other nominees were reported out, and we'll get on the court. This is no different than what the Republicans did to Bill Clinton for eight years. They didn't let all his nominees get to the court. The process is you nominate, you have the committee hear, and then, some pass, and some don't. And that's the way the cookie crumbles.
NOVAK: No, it isn't, Mr. Coelho, because almost all of his early nominees got through in his first two years. That's when a pretty new president puts it in, and I want you to -- there is a new standard put out by your friend, Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, who is a member of the Judiciary Committee. Let's listen to what he says. This is an amazing statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLES SCHUMER (D-NY), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The White House has to understand that they cannot pack the courts with only conservative nominees and expect this Committee to be a rubber-stamp. Certainly, their constitution calls for advise and consent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Is the most blatant expression I ever heard of an ideological litmus test for judicial nominees. You can't approve of that.
COELHO: I do.
NOVAK: Wow.
COELHO: And let me tell you what my concern is is that what you folks are trying to do is your -- this man barely won the election. I can say he didn't. But I won't get there. And he barely won the election. And here he is trying to put people on the court who are completely to the right. You know what he ought to do? He ought to put people on the court who are qualified.
WALKER: Who are pro-abortion.
COELHO: No, who don't have to be pro abortion, who aren't obnoxious that the White House counsel even says goes beyond what the state legislature...
WALKER: That's not what the White House counsel says.
COELHO: That is what the White House counsel says.
WALKER: It is not. He has said over and over again...
COELHO: It is what the White House counsel says.
BEGALA: Go ahead. What did he say? What were his exact words?
WALKER: I don't know his exact words.
BEGALA: I do. I do, sir.
NOVAK: Wait, wait, wait. Let him talk.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that one of her opinions was quote...
WALKER: Can I make my point?
(CROSSTALK)
The White House counsel has said this is an extremely well- qualified candidate. The American Bar Association says it's an extremely well-qualified candidate. Even "The Washington Post", the liberal "Washington Post" said this is an extremely well-qualified candidate. The problem not is the question...
COELHO: What did he say when he was in Texas? What did he say?
BEGALA: Al Gonzalez is the White House counsel, a very able guy. He served on the Texas Supreme Court with Justice Priscilla Owen, and 11 times, he attacked her judicial philosophy as being far too activist, which is something conservatives traditionally don't like.
And the exact quote in the case at hand was, "This is an unconscionable act of judicial activism." This is something (UNINTELLIGIBLE) supposed to oppose, and this is why these Democrats on the committee voted against her.
WALKER: The fact is what the Democrats want is activist liberals on the court and so activism shouldn't be their standard...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... you know, the fact is what they want is activist liberals, and the problem is that the president is...
BEGALA: He wants activist conservatives. At least, we're honest about it.
NOVAK: Well, who's president?
WALKER: And he's president, and...
BEGALA: Who won the election?
WALKER: ... if he sends...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Al Gore.
WALKER: ... well-qualified people to the Hill who have his philosophy, they should be approved because they're well qualified. The philosophy should not be the litmus test. If it is, we're in deep trouble in this country.
BEGALA: Where were you, Mr. Walker, with respect, where were you when I worked for Bill Clinton, and 10, 10 justices he nominated, who were ranked well-qualified...
NOVAK: That was at the tail end of his administration.
BEGALA: Excuse me, Mr. Novak. Never got a vote. Justice Owen got a vote. The president was too weak, politically,...
NOVAK: There's a difference between the beginning and the end.
BEGALA: ... to carry her through and, you know, a weak president can't deliver his nominees. That's the lesson, here, right?
WALKER: Well, it's not a weak president because the fact is what you had is a partisanly stacked committee that wouldn't even allow the nomination to come to the floor.
If Justice Owen had come to the floor, there would have been a vote, and it would have been a favor of her. So you use a partisanly stacked committee in order to deny the president the vote that he deserves in the United States Senate.
NOVAK: I just want you to look me in the eye, Mr. Coelho, and say that you're ready for a time, down the road, when there is a Republican controlled Senate, and a Democratic president. The way we work in this country, it'll probably happen, and you are willing to say we are going to put an ideological litmus test. You say you like that then, you'll have to like it in the future, right?
COELHO: It's already been done, Bob. Let's not pretend. Let's not play games. You guys have done it. You enjoyed it when you could.
NOVAK: Not in the past.
COELHO: Yes, you did. Yes, you did, and, now, it's coming back to roost on you guys, and you don't like it. Too bad. Too bad.
WALKER: So this is retribution even against well-qualified people.
COELHO: No, it's not.
WALKER: Look what you just said.
COELHO: We just put through...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: It's retribution against well-qualified people, and that's a terrible act.
NOVAK: Those are the last words. Thank you, Tony Coelho. Thank you, Bob Walker. We appreciate it.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) great job.
NOVAK: Congress may have more on its plate than it can handle. But one particular committee seems to be cooking up a little something special for Martha Stewart. That's coming up. Along with a new sign of madness from some animal rights crazies.
But next, our "Quote of the Day," which contains a very unusual job request.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
Louisiana State University has given bioweapons expert, Dr. Steven Hatfill, the one, two, three treatment. LSU hired him July 1, suspended him August 2 and fired him September 3. Dr. Hatfill denies that he is the killer in the Anthrax case, has never been charged with any crime, has not even been designated as a suspect in the Anthrax investigation, but that didn't stop Attorney General John Ashcroft from publicly labeling Dr. Hatfill quote "A person of interest in last year's Anthrax attacks."
Now, LSU won't say why Dr. Hatfill was canned, although it got a government e-mail ordering Hatfill not to be assigned to any Justice Department funded program. Now, Hatfill's attorney has written to John Ashcroft, and in our "Quote of the Day" says, quote "Dr. Hatfill has been rendered not only unemployed, but as a practical matter unemployable by your department's inappropriate actions. Please use your good offices to promptly secure appropriate employment for Dr. Hatfill."
Amen.
NOVAK: Paul, this is one of the rare times I agree with you 100 percent. This is like Joseph K. and Kafkas of the trial. You don't know what he's accused of, you don't know what he's charged with, but he is out work."
BEGALA: Amen. I agree, completely.
NOVAK: Verdicts came in, today, in the trial of two boys accused of murdering their father. Connie Chung has details next in a CNN "News Alert."
Later, do CEOs really deserve all those lavish fringe benefits? If so, is criticism just neo-Marxist class-warfare?
And then, we'll ask the president of an animal rights group if in your face, or in this case, in your stomach ad campaigns accomplish anything at all?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're coming to you from The George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C.
Martha Stewart and Jack Welch have been lionized and demonized over the years. Right now, they're both in a down cycle. A House committee is dropping hints it may subpoena Martha or even refer criminal charges against her to authorities. Why? Because it's the way for an ambitious Congressman to get on television. Jack Welch is caught up in a messy divorce suit. Court papers filed by his ex-wife says he gets a nice array of fringe benefits from GE, like a free Manhattan apartment and courtside seats for the New York Knicks. Maybe he deserves all the benefits no matter what the class warriors say.
In the CROSSFIRE we have Common Cause Vice President Ben Bycel, and in New York, is "Forbes Magazine" Managing Editor Dennis Kneale.
DENNIS KNEALE, "FORBES" MAGAZINE, MANAGING EDITOR: Hi, Bob.
BEGALA: Gentlemen, we both thank you for joining us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's my pleasure.
BEGALA: And, Mr. Kneale, let me start with you. Good of you to...
KNEALE: OK.
BEGALA: ... take your time on a Friday evening. I want to read you a quote from Jack Welch's autobiography, straight from the gut, where he tells us, he's nice enough to tell us about his own integrity. He writes, "A freshman at Fairfield University Business School forum recently asked me, 'How can you be a good Catholic and businessman at the same time?' I answered emphatically, 'I am.' The simple answer is: By maintaining integrity. Establishing it and never wavering from it supported by everything I did through good and bad times. People may not have agreed with me on every issue...but they always knew they were getting it straight and honest."
So now we know, three wives, secret payments and untrammeled greed. Is that corporate America's idea of integrity, Mr. Neil?
KNEALE: You know, I really think you're asking the wrong question. You're asking the wrong question. I don't care what Jack Welch does in his personal life. I care what kind of wealth he creates for his shareholders and his employees.
BEGALA: Did you say that about Mr. Clinton, Mr. Kneale?
KNEALE: I'm sorry.
BEGALA: Did you say that about Bill Clinton, Mr. Kneale?
KNEALE: What does Bill Clinton have to do with Jack Welch?
(CROSSTALK)
KNEALE: If I may get a word in edgewise. If I may actually try to get a point in. Let me just say, Jack Welch earned every penny of what they paid him. When he took over GE, GE was not one of the hundred most valuable companies in the world. When he left GE, it was number one in the world. Jack Welch helped to do that. And he's worth every dollar they're paying him.
BEGALA: So why not disclose it? They paid him $900 million, to begin with, Mr. Kneale. Not a bad paycheck.
(CROSSTALK)
KNEALE: That's what he earned over a lifetime. That's what he amassed over a lifetime, and sure, let him disclose...
BEGALA: The Manhattan apartment, the Knicks' seats, courtside seats at the U.S. Open, satellite TV in all his homes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) newspapers.
KNEALE: You know why he didn't disclose it? I'll tell you. Look, they didn't disclose it because it's not even a rounding error on GE's balance sheet. GE's sales are $125 billion a year. This company earns almost $15 billion a year. They spend more money on toilet paper than they spend on compensating Jack Welch.
(CROSSTALK)
BEN BYCEL, VICE PRESIDENT, COMMON CAUSE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shareholders paid $30,000 a year. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hide millions and millions of dollars from retired teachers, from firemen, from police officers, that they're not entitled to know what it is before they invest. That's a fraud.
NOVAK: Let Mr. Welch testify on his own behalf with a statement he made today, and just let me read you one paragraph of it. "The essence of this story is that GE put a succession plan in place that included a contract with me, described the succession plan in the media, disclosed the contract as required, and the plan has worked to the benefit of all constituencies. A one-sided filing by one party in a contested divorce does not change these fact." Unquote.
Isn't this just a matter of greed and class struggle we're talking about?
BYCEL: That's the problem. It says "as required." No, no, he did not have to file with the FCC. So what the company did is it filed this document that said he's entitled to the same benefits he got when he was working there. Well, does that mean free gym? Did that mean lunch in the cafeteria? No, it meant millions and millions and millions of dollars of benefit. If you were a shareholder of GE, you would want to know that.
NOVAK: If I was a shareholder of GE, which I'm not, I would send a thank you note to Mr. Welch for upping my value of the stock for all those years.
KNEALE: Bingo. Bingo. General Electric stock rose a thousand percent...
BYCEL: And telling him to take an extra 30 million? Just go ahead and take it?
NOVAK: Go ahead, Mr. Kneale.
KNEALE: General Electric's stock rose 1,000 percent. That's a huge rise. That is twice the rise in the broad index of the 500 biggest companies in America. Jack Welch did that. Furthermore, by paying him the millions of dollars that you're paying him, you make he doesn't go consult to some of GE's biggest competitors.
If you're a shareholder of GE, you'd much rather that Jack Welch is still on your side, even if it's costing you $5 million a year. Another thing. Citicorp's retired CEO. He gets paid $2 million a year. Fleet Financial's CEO, when he retires at year-end, he will get paid almost $6 million a year. This is standard in corporate America. It's just that, right now, we're at a time when we're enjoying beating up on CEOs, and politicians and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) grandstand...
BYCEL: Oh, give me a break, beating up on CEOs. These guys make millions and millions of dollars. Please, don't tell me about beating up on people. That's ridiculous.
KNEALE: I feel bad for them.
BEGALA: Yes, well...
BYCEL: Well, yes, I'm going to shed a tear, too, Paul, sure.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Mr. Kneale, but doesn't the board of directors have some responsibility to disclose this to the shareholders. It's the shareholder's money, not the board's.
In fact, Graef Crystal, who's one of the experts on corporate compensation had this to says in the "New York Times," today. Mr. Crystal says, quote "This is an indictment of GE's board of directors. This is the most appalling use of corporate assets. No one had any idea of the magnitude of what the company had been giving him."
KNEALE: OK. A couple of thoughts. OK. Bud Crystal has made his career criticizing executive compensation. He's a dial-a-quote. That's what we do. We call him when we need good sound byte criticizing complementation. They didn't disclose because its simply not material. In $125 billion a year company if they're paying him five million, if they're paying him 10 million, so what?
NOVAK: I want to move on to Martha Stewart. She is being dragged before this committee. She got rid of some stock. It is not a big deal. There's a lot of other things they could be investigating. Why are they investigating her?
It was explained, today in "The Wall Street Journal" by Holman Jenkins, one of the best business columnists in America. Let me just read from this column. "Mr. Greenwood's subcommittee..." this is James Greenwood, liberal Republican of Pennsylvania, "...is pursuing Ms. Stewart solely because she's a celebrity, just like Mr. Greenwood wants to be.
But having had his jollies and appeared on a dozen talking-head shows, the moment has come to notice that the evidence is circumstantial and it all points to no crime being committed by Ms. Stewart." Aren't you sophisticated enough to know when you got a television-grabbing, ambitious congressman at work? BYCEL: Look, on the positive side for Martha Stewart, she is taking the heat for all those executives, like Ken Law and all the rest of them, who we can't to, so that's the positive side. On the other words, she is a whiner. She is a complete whiner. She lived by fame. Everyday, she benefits by fame.
And now, she gets caught. You have to believe 10 incredible facts to believe that she isn't guilty of, at least, obstruction of justice, if not insider trading.
NOVAK: Mr. Kneale?
BEGALA: Mr. Kneale, yes, what do you think about Martha Stewart.
KNEALE: OK. A couple of things. The very next thing that will happen is, yes, the Congressional committee will, indeed, subpoena Martha Stewart. That's without a doubt that's going to happen, right?
And then, all of us in the media are just going to go wild with this and cover it, cover every moment of it because we love this. But the fact is, this is a tempest in a Cuisinart. This is nothing. It's an embarrassment that they are still investigating this. And they're never going to prove a case against her, either.
BEGALA: Shouldn't this Republican Congressman, who's going after the one Democratic businessperson in trouble, also subpoena Jack Welch?
NOVAK: What did Jack Welch do?
KNEALE: No.
BEGALA: Well, we should know.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Why don't we subpoena Paul Begala, for crying out loud?
BYCEL: All I know is I'm going right out to Target and buying my Martha Stewart, before its gone.
NOVAK: You, surely, don't agree that they should subpoena Jack Welch's.
BYCEL: No. Jack Welch's marital problems are not my problem.
NOVAK: All right. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
BEGALA: I don't want to know his marital problems. I want to know if he's paying taxes on those.
Dennis Kneale, "Forbes" magazine, thank you very much from New York. Thanks. Ben Bycel, thank you very much for joining us, here in Washington.
BYCEL: Thank you. Appreciate it. BEGALA: Coming up in our "Fireback" segment, one of our viewers explains to Bob Novak why so many college professors are Democrat.
But next, looking out for the welfare of animals and humans, too. Fasten your seat belts, if you can.
Stay with us.
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BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
A couple of months ago, a brother and sister from New Mexico had to take a bus home because Southwest Airlines insisted they were so fat, they had to pay for extra seats.
Now, PETA, the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, is trying to make hay out of this wide-bodied predicament. PETA billboards feature a super sized stomach with the slogan, "Don't pay for 2 seats. Go vegetarian." Is this the way to answer our national epidemic of obesity?
Well, joining us to discuss that matter, from Virginia Beach, Virginia, is PETA president, Ingrid Newkirk.
Ms. Newkirk, thanks for joining us.
INGRID NEWKIRK, PETA: Thank you.
NOVAK: The irony is, Ms. Newkirk, is that Southwest Airlines doesn't feed you anything, meat or vegetables. That's why they're so profitable. But isn't -- there is no any evidence that people eat meat are fatter or leaner than people who eat vegetables. It doesn't make any difference. This is just an attention-grabber, isn't it?
NEWKIRK: Oh, Bob. No, you know better than that. It's certainly an attention-grabber. But we have an obesity epidemic. When we talk about wide-bodies these days, we aren't talking jumbo jets. We are talking about the passengers on them.
And we thought we would seize this opportunity and say, look, 80 percent of Americans are overweight, if they're over the age of 25. Children are fat. You can slim down if you go veg. And so we put a Web site, goveg.com, for tasty recipes that will actually help you lose, on average, 20 pounds.
NOVAK: What about those 500-pound sumo wrestlers in Japan who subsist on a vegetable diet?
NEWKIRK: Oh, no, they don't. They eat this huge soup. I know exactly what sumo wrestlers eat, and it's this thing called chunko (ph), and it's full of chicken and fish and, of course, they drink a lot beer.
BEGALA: Well, actually, this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Ms. Newkirk, also, that chunko nabi (ph), the stew, also includes lots of cabbage and lots of rice, onions, mushrooms and tofu, the official food, I think, of PETA.
But let me ask you a more direct question. Tell me why a group that weeps for lab rats is mocking and taunting Americans who happen to be obese?
NEWKIRK: Oh, nobody's mocking or taunting. I think most people don't want to carry around that excess baggage. It's uncomfortable. It's unwieldy. They don't feel good, and it's not as if we suddenly have this genetic predisposition to be fat. It's what we're eating.
We're putting away the chicken McNuggets and the turkey and the fish, and hoping that does good for us, when, in fact, it doesn't. Goveg.com, free vegetarian starter kit. You will lose weight. If you keep putting even little bits of chicken away, you're getting far too much fat because that fat runs all the way through the bird.
BEGALA: I wonder if you've done anything to call attention to the fat polar bears who, you know, they subsist on a diet of meat up there, and they're all fat. Are you going to move polar bears into veggie, too? Isn't it, simply, natural for people to eat meat, just the way it is for some animals to eat meat?
NEWKIRK: They don't say -- anthropologists say that we started out, you know, picking berries and getting vegetables and fruits and things like that. And then, the first time we hit a Brontosaurus over the head, I think we fell in love with the taste of meat, and it sends us to the emergency room ever since. The more we've eaten, the sicker we've become as a nation, and so...
NOVAK: Ms. Newkirk, this is first time I've been on with you, and I'm a 71-year-old healthy American. I eat meat all the time. I even eat meat when I go to seafood places, and, you know, ...
NEWKIRK: Fish meat. Fish is meat.
NOVAK: What is wrong with having a good steak? I don't, either, overeat. What's the problem with that?
NEWKIRK: Well from a health perspective, anything in moderation, I suppose, you can get away with. From a cruelty to animals perspective too, not only when...
NOVAK: I don't like animals much, though.
NEWKIRK: Bob, I know you have a soft heart behind that hard persona because I've been watching you for many years. And you are a softy.
But if you want to live more than 70 some years, if you don't want to end up in a nursing home with a heart attack, stroke, these are the things that start besetting people of your age, then I urge you, get the vegetarian starter kit, and let's have the spaghetti with the tomato sauce, instead of the meatballs.
NOVAK: Can you can believe, Ingrid, that there are some people who would really not care to live, if you can't have a good steak once in a while?
NEWKIRK: Well, that shows it's an addiction, Bob, and you've got to kick that dirty meat habit. Get rid of the corpse cuisine. Come on board. We can teach you how to cook really great stuff. You'll love it, and you will live long and healthy. Don't make faces.
BEGALA: This is one of the few things, actually, that Mr. Novak and I agree on, but you said moderation in all things, and I suppose that's useful.
Why not moderate your own messages? You have an organization that has suggested to people, for example, that Jesus Christ was a vegetarian. You ran a billboard in Turin, Italy. Of course, it's not true. Jesus helped his friends catch fish, and he cooked those fish.
NEWKIRK: There are different opinions on that, Paul.
BEGALA: You ran a billboard mocking Rudy Giuliani for having prostate cancer. Now, that's really extreme, isn't it?
NEWKIRK: Well, look, it gets me on your show. I don't get to meet you guys, unless we run something extreme.
And the fact is that we do all these other things that are moderate, and no one shows up, but if we run something amusing or provocative. We don't get called.
NOVAK: Wasn't the famous of the 20th century, a meat eater, Adolf Hitler.
NEWKIRK: No, he restricted his meat intake. But he was a very vile man. That's low blow. Don't go there.
NOVAK: I think he was a vegetarian.
NEWKIRK: No, he wasn't. Albert Schweitzer was a vegetarian, and he was a king man. Let's think about him.
Go to goveg.com and get a vegetarian diet and live long.
NOVAK: Ingrid Newkirk, thank you very much.
NEWKIRK: Thank you.
NOVAK: Next is your chance to fire back at us. That's just what one of Martha Stewart's defenders is making you do.
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NOVAK: It's time for "Fireback" when the viewers have their say about us. The first e-mail from Karen Pear of Alemeda, California: "I think Martha Stewart is the victim of a modern 'witch hunt.' As a competent, successful woman, she is being punished for doing what men do all the time- looking out for her own interests."
As feminist, Karen, I agree with you 100 percent. BEGALA: Jim Busha from Appleton, Wisconsin writes about our debate last night about our debate with Michael Newdow about his lawsuit over the use of the word "God." "Wouldn't taking the word God off our currency and out of the pledge and replacing it with the greed better define the core values of this nation? It would at least lend some credibility to Bob Novak's constant lament about every dollar he pay's in taxes."
NOVAK: OK. No comment on that? No. All right. Samantha Coker of Seattle, Washington says: "Bob, you claim that the United States is the most successful nation in the world. But 60 percent of the country's obese, we have one of the worst education systems in the world" -- go to Afghanistan and tell them that -- "we have the highest rate of incarcerated people in the world, and most Americans cannot afford their own health care. So how do you figure we are so successful?"
Samantha, maybe you ought to leave this country is go to some place like Albania. But I would say it's successful because guys like Paul and I have an opportunity to make a living by shooting off our mouths.
BEGALA: That's the greatest freedom of all, believe me.
Gladys Hamilton in Sun City, Arizona writes about Mr. Novak's claim the other night that all the academics in America are Democrats. She says: "Mr. Novak, of course the presidents of universities and colleges are Democrats. The Republicans are either CEOs for the largest corporations or working for the government."
NOVAK: Question.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is Jenny from Finly, Ohio. And I was wondering couldn't GE better use their profits to say improve worker conditions or bring more good things to life?
NOVAK: Well, they're improving the worker conditions for Jack Welsh. And that is -- they've done good job of that.
BEGALA: They should put it to the shareholders. It's their money, not Jack Welch's, and not the cooperate board's. The shareholders should decide that.
Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name's Cody Burn from Portland, Oregon. And I had a question about Martha Stewart and Jack Welch. In light of the revelations about Martha and Jack's finances do you think both could be best served by cooperating and pinching pennies. I think perhaps could Martha decorate Jack's living rooms and could Jack potentially help avoid the investigators.
NOVAK: I'll tell you this, Jack Welch is not accused of any crime. Martha Stewart is accused of a crime. Let's get real. There are a lot of criminals in the corporate world. Those two aren't among them. BEGALA: But Welch is a monumental hypocrite. I'm a little personal about it because I wrote good things about him in the last book that I wrote. Praised him, and now I find out this stuff about secret deals and big money, and I don't like it.
Yes, sir.
NOVAK: Question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob Novak, tonight you quoted someone as saying what goes around, comes around in Bush's judicial nominees. And I think as long as Democrats and Republicans continue to play the games of I'll get you back, this country's never going to get anywhere.
NOVAK: I agree. And I think the Democrats ought to start by going back to the old standard of not having hearings on judicial nominees. You don't to know that they used to automatically nominate them. If the president said they were good enough, they were good enough.
BEGALA: That's not what the constitution says. They should looking carefully at these people. They're appointed for life, by a president who didn't even win the election.
NOVAK: Didn't say that in the Constitution. You read the Constitution.
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another addition of CROSSFIRE.
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