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Q&A with Jim Clancy

Q&A

Aired September 09, 2002 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We are very, very sad because he is not here. We are very sad and sorry because he is not with us. Today is a mourning day. Today is mourning day.

RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): It's a very different Afghanistan. A year after the death of Northern Alliance leader Ahmed Shah Massoud. The alliance he headed no longer besieged by the Taliban and a sliver of land in the north now a dominant player in Afghanistan's shaky interim government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We lost limbs fighting the Soviets, but we are still ready to sacrifice our lives for the sake of Ahmed Shah Massoud.

VASSILEVA: What is his legacy -- a legacy some are still willing to die for? Who killed him, and why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The assassination of our legendary commander Ahmed Shah Massoud is directly linked to what happened here in the United States on September 11th.

ABDULLAH ABDULLAH: It is no substitution for Commander Massoud.

VASSILEVA: On this edition of Q&A, the legend of Ahmed Shah Massoud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VASSILEVA: Welcome to Q&A. I'm Ralitsa Vassileva. Jim Clancy is on assignment.

Tonight, who was Ahmed Shah Massoud and what is his legacy?

The Northern Alliance leader was killed last year. He died without seeing Kabul one last time. Today a transformed capital mourns his loss.

CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Thousands of Afghans packed Kabul's national stadium to pay tribute to their fallen resistance leader Ahmed Shah Massoud. He spend a lifetime battling first the 10 years of Soviet occupation and then the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

"This was a stadium of terror under the Taliban," said one speaker. Executions used to happen here. But on this day, the symbolism defied everything the Taliban ever stood for. Women took part, modestly dressed, but not a burka to be seen.

An 8-year-old girl addressed an audience of thousands. Under the Taliban, she wouldn't have been able to attend school. Today, she represented the nation's children as she greeted Massoud's 13-year-old son and survivor.

The child himself had a stadium full of grizzled war veterans and Mujahideen enthralled as he endlessly greeted dignitaries and extolled his father's legacy.

"The enemies," he said, "thought that by killing my father, the hero Ahmed Shah Massoud, they could kill his dreams. They didn't know that Massoud was more than just a mortal; he was an idea, a vision."

Massoud's body lies in a hilltop mausoleum in the Panjshir north of Kabul. Black flags fluttered throughout the valley and thousands of villagers came to pay tribute.

He was killed by two Arabs posing as journalists, believed to have been sent by Osama bin Laden, their camera gear packed with explosives. His death was supposed to remove the last pocket of anti-Taliban resistance. Instead, coming two days before September 11th, it preceded a massive United States campaign that ended the Taliban rule.

In Kabul, speaker after speaker said Massoud's goal was a free and independent Afghanistan. His vision was national unity. His religion moderate Islam. In death, his legend has only grown. He is lionized as fearless warrior and a martyr in the great struggles against both Communism and terrorism.

(on camera): This ceremony is held amid unprecedented security because it comes just a few days after Kabul experienced its most deadly attack since the fall of the Taliban, a massive car bomb which killed and wounded scores of people. Both the international peacekeeping force here and Afghan security forces are on their highest state of alert.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Kabul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VASSILEVA: Joining us now from Washington is Haron Amin. He is the deputy chief of the Afghan mission. And in New York is Jerry Van Dyk. He is a former Afghanistan correspondent for the "New York Times." Thanks to both of you for being with us.

First to Haron Amin, how do you explain this massive outpouring of affection for Massoud?

HARON AMIN, DEPUTY CHIEF, AFGHAN MISSION: Ralitsa, it's a natural thing in Afghanistan.

We now know the value that Massoud possessed when he was alive, and we also know the legend and the glory with which he is going to live for the rest of our memories, for the rest of our lives.

The important thing is he believed in the ideals that we all advocate: democracy, human rights, values, civil society, and so on and so forth. And the sad thing was that he had to wage war, as he said it, he had to wage war to end war. And the international community at the time when he was alive did not take him seriously, but he knew that in order to take Afghanistan from war to peace, he needed to continue that struggle, and he put 27 years of his life into that.

VASSILEVA: I want to go to Mr. Van Dyk, also, and ask him what he sees as an explanation of this massive outpouring of grief on this day, one year after Massoud's death.

JERRY VAN DYK, JOURNALIST What Ahmad Shah Massoud represents is the archetypical Afghan hero. He was a great warrior. He was also very literate. He was a poet. He is alleged to have had a library of 6,000 books in his second home in Tajikistan.

He went to a French high school; he spoke French. He was at a place in the Panjshir Valley, which is not far from Pakistan. Therefore, a lot of journalists were able to get to him relatively easily during the 1980's.

A very charismatic man. He spoke, as I said, French. He spoke some English, and he was very receptive to people. And this created a wonderful press for him throughout the world. Plus, and this is not to be underestimated, he was the archetypical Afghan hero: a warrior and a poet.

VASSILEVA: And yet, as Haron Amin mentioned, he did appeal to the West for help and he did not receive it. The West came in and took the threat seriously, specifically the United States, only after September 11th.

VAN DYK: He fought for over 20 years, and during this time, unlike every other Afghan Mujahideen, every other commander, he did not once leave Afghanistan. He stayed in the north. He fought heroically against the Soviet Union.

But later -- but during this period also, he did receive arms, he did receive material from the West. Later, even in the last couple of years, he went to Europe. The president of France, Jacques Chirac, met with him. He met with the European community is Strasburg.

So it wasn't as if he was totally ignored. He was there. However, the West, at the time, didn't think that he had a chance against the Taliban, which, up until late-September, controlled 95 percent of the country. Massoud only controlled, in the very end, 5 percent.

VASSILEVA: So, Haron Amin, what is your take on this? Was the West right in assuming that Massoud never had a chance?

AMIN: I think that the West knew that it miscalculated, as it actually knows that it miscalculated the threat of the Taliban and the threat of al Qaeda.

When Massoud was in Paris, he wanted to meet with Chirac; Chirac did not want to meet with him. In the European parliament, was very mad today as to why they did not decide to have him address the European parliament (AUDIO GAP) underestimated the power of al Qaeda.

It was Massoud that said we will continue to fight the scourge of fanaticism, violence and extremism. And his legacy -- the reason that we have responsibility of advancing his legacy is because we know that the man was right on numerous perspectives, on numerous issues, vis-Â…-vis moderation or moderate Islam, vis-Â…-vis cooperation and coexistence, vis-Â…- vis, you know, neighborly cooperation between Afghanistan's neighbors, on so many different issues.

And me, myself, having fought alongside him against the Soviets and then later on having worked with him, I know exactly who we have lost in Afghanistan. In many ways, Afghanistan is an orphan, but we are happy that the international community has paid the attention and that we've got a government that we must ascertain that we Afghans will only want to go towards realizations of his goals and not legitimize our actions by basically his vision.

VASSILEVA: Mr. Amin, some have said, in looking back at his life, saying that this was a big loss, that Afghanistan needs a person, a leader of his stature, who would have been able to have the kind of qualities to lead Afghanistan, that Afghanistan, at this point, lacks a person like him.

What would have been -- if he wasn't killed, what role do you think he would have played?

AMIN: I just want to say, first of all, to put him in perspective, one needs to unite the characters of three American statesmen: George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson. That would be the equivalent of Massoud for Afghans.

Had he been alive, I don't think that a lot of this warlordism today in Afghanistan would be there. I think that the country would move very quickly forward towards addressing the development issues of Afghanistan.

Massoud was a capable man in the sense that at the time when he was waging war, he was also rebuilding. Schools were open in the countryside. Women were going to work. Hospitals and clinics were being built. Numerous nutrition centers for advising women on how to feed babies and so on and so forth -- I mean, war, and in the middle of it there was rebuilding.

And he would have been able to totally jump-start the whole development program of Afghanistan. Afghanistan would have been a totally different country, because he had that charisma, he had that leadership, he had the persuasion and he had that fortitude and temperance and so on and so forth, to be able to take Afghanistan from the currently quasi.

VASSILEVA: Mr. Amin, I just wanted to reference to our viewers, what we're showing now are pictures today of the commemoration of the first anniversary of his death. A giant poster at a stadium where executions used to take place. Today there was an outpouring of grief for Ahmed Shah Massoud.

A little girl representing girls and children in Afghanistan spoke. His son spoke.

I'd like to go back to what we were discussing and go back to Mr. Van Dyk and ask him, is it just one person, though, that could have made such a big difference? Is it just that in death, Massoud is viewed even more as a legend? Do you agree with Mr. Amin, who says that things would have been much, much different in Afghanistan today if this one person was alive?

VAN DYK: I think things in Afghanistan would, perhaps, have been very much different.

However, we have to note that this ceremony that we are seeing on the screen today is taking place in Kabul, in the north. I traveled throughout Afghanistan from December to April this past year, and I note that in the north, yes, one sees pictures of Ahmed Shah Massoud throughout Kabul and in places like Mazar-e-Sharif in the north.

But if you go south, to Kandahar or Khost or Ghazi, even west to Herat, there are no pictures of Ahmed Shah Massoud. He was a Tajik, and he was waging war against the Pashtuns.

It is true, he was moderate. It is true, everything that one says about him in terms of his abilities to fight, his abilities to deal with people. He was an engineer. He did what he could. He did wonderful things to try and reconstruct Afghanistan.

But also, in 1995, he waged war on the outskirts of Kabul against the Hazaras and against his old archrival, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and he is alleged to, according to many accounts, to have massacred Hazaras. So he is not someone who is revered throughout Afghanistan. It's very important to note that.

As great as he was, he is not loved in the south and certainly not by the Hazaras.

VASSILEVA: And we will be talking, in our next segment, that's exactly what we will be talking about.

I'd like to go to Mr. Amin and also get his thoughts on how far Massoud's popularity spread in Afghanistan. Do you agree that it was just in the north? Mazar-e-Sharif, we saw, Mr. Van Dyk is very right, we saw just two main commemorations, in the capital, Kabul, and Mazar-e-Sharif.

AMIN: Let me say that a lot of the dignitaries for most of the country have flown into Kabul to attend the major ceremony in Kabul. Further ceremonies will be conducted over the next two or three days in many cities of Afghanistan, including, there was one in Kandahar today, and also other ceremonies throughout the south.

In the same way that Massoud is being portrayed as this hero today, and in the context of the anti-terror campaign, the same context that has become famous now, he has also become famous in Afghanistan. And let me say that yes, certain things are implied to have been the work of Massoud. Such was the case in 1995, from 1992 on. But remember, he always said, I have to wage war to end war.

Whenever attacked, that's when he attacked back. He never was about war. If anything, he was the most peaceful man that I have yet seen. He was not about war, but sometimes it takes a greater evil to overcome a smaller evil. It took a greater campaign by the international community to overcome the Taliban to overcome al Qaeda. That's the way nature works. And sadly, he had to wage war to overcome this.

But his legacy will only grow bigger in the world. His legacy will only grow bigger in Afghanistan. And I see that a lot of Pashtuns that formerly did not like him, colleagues of mine, friends of mine.

VASSILEVA: Before we go.

AMIN: . now pay tribute to him.

VASSILEVA: Yes, before we go to break, I just want to get in a quick question. I'd like to ask Mr. Van Dyk about what is the latest on the investigation of who killed Massoud and why?

VAN DYK: This is very interesting. We still don't know, apparently, how the two, if they really did it, the two Arabs who made their way through these lines and got through -- and this is very important to note: how did they get from Pakistan, across Taliban lines, where the leader of the intelligence for Ahmed Shah Massoud is presently today the most powerful man in Afghanistan, and that's Mohammad Fahim (ph), who was director of intelligence under Massoud.

How did they get through? We still do not know exactly if al Qaeda is responsible.

VASSILEVA: Next, is Ahmed Shah Massoud deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize? A group of French academics certainly think so, and so does the Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

We will discuss that and more when Q&A returns, with our guests.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VASSILEVA: Welcome back.

To many Afghans, Ahmed Shah Massoud was a true hero, the lion of Panjshir who fought the Soviet army and the Taliban.

But also Massoud has his critics. They say he took part in brutal ethnic feuds that shattered Kabul after the Soviets pulled out in 1992.

Joining us now from New York is Masouda Sultan. She is the program director of the Women for Afghan Women Organization.

Thank you very much for joining us Ms. Sultan.

MASOUDA SULTAN, WOMEN FOR AFGHAN WOMEN: Thank you.

VASSILEVA: French academics have submitted Massoud's name for a Nobel Peace Prize, a posthumous Nobel Peace Prize. Thousands of people have signed the petition, including the Afghan President Hamid Karzai. In your view, is he deserving of a Nobel Peace Price?

SULTAN: Well, it's interesting that Mr. Amin pointed out that Mr. Massoud believed that he needed to wage war in order to get to peace, because this as the position taken by all the warlords that were combating in Afghanistan.

Ahmed Shah Massoud was a warlord. He was a combatant, and that's what he was.

Mr. Amin mentioned the legacy that he left behind. Well, he certainly did leave behind a legacy with Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and other groups, even with the United States State Dept.

The United States State Dept. had a report in 1996 on human rights practices in '95, and I quote: "Massoud's troops went on a rampage, systematically looting whole streets and raping women."

It's very clear, every knows what Massoud's record is on women. His number two man, Abdul Siaf (ph), is a fundamentalist as Massoud was, part of a party called Jamiat-e-Islami, a fundamentalist party. In fact, the number two political leader in the Northern Alliance, Abdul Siaf (ph), does not believe that Islam allows for the participation of women in public life. And it's reported that he doesn't even speak to women.

VASSILEVA: Still, what we see today, the successors of Massoud, those who respect him, who say that they speak for his legacy, they have allowed a lot of changes, a lot of rights for women, which we see. What are your thoughts on that?

SULTAN: Well, certainly there have been some changes in Afghanistan. Women have the right to not wear the burka if they choose not to. They have the right to education, to health. I mean, changes are coming about. The changes are coming about because the new government, an interim administration, has been created with the help of the UN and the rest of the world.

I don't think the Northern Alliance can take credit for these changes. And we still have a lot way to go. Many women have still expressed fear, fear of walking outside their doors without the burka; they don't feel safe. The government is not safe. The recent assassination attempt on Karzai shows that.

It's still a very precarious situation, especially for women.

VASSILEVA: What is the affect on the people of Kabul of those feuds, those bitter feuds, that erupted after the Soviets pulled out? Kabul was destroyed. What was the affect on its people? We know that Massoud was leading one of those factions that turned on each other after the Soviets left.

SULTAN: It was horrible. I mean, I have family that has told me that in the time between 1992 and 1996, when Rabbani's government was in power, with Ahmed Shah Massoud as the military head, as the defense minister, that those were some of the worst times they had seen. They were afraid to leave their homes. They were afraid their children were going to be kidnapped. Women suffered rape.

How do you tell the women that suffered rape and beatings and killings all through the country that they're going to nominate the person that was responsible for the troops that did this? It's ridiculous to think that such a person should be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Kabul suffered some of its worst civil war under this regime, and it doesn't make any sense to nominate this person.

VASSILEVA: One last quick question: how do you explain the outpouring of grief for him? Very quick answer.

SULTAN: The outpouring of grief comes from the north, particularly.

Ahmed Shah Massoud was a military strategist. He was brilliant. He was very savvy, and certainly even I can appreciate some of his tactics. But it's not to be forgotten who he was in his totality, and he was a fighter, a combatant.

VASSILEVA: Absolutely. Ms. Sultan, thank you very much -- thank you very much for speaking with us.

SULTAN: Thank you.

VASSILEVA: Joining us now on the telephone is Tahmeena Faryal. She's a representative of RAWA organization.

Thank you very much for joining us, Ms. Faryal.

Tell us about what you think that Massoud's legacy is.

TAHMEENA FARYAL, RAWA: We believe that, as we have always said and expressed, not just even in the war, in the years that Massoud (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the warlords had the power from '92 to '96, and after that, in his battle against Taliban, that even prior to that, when the Soviets were still in Afghanistan, RAWA, unfortunately, was the only organization that was exposing the nature of Massoud and his other like- minded people as fundamentalists, and RAWA was the only organization that talked about the danger of such a fundamentalist regime, one that we had in Afghanistan, exactly what happened, from '92 to '96.

And while it's true that he might have some support from, of course, many people from Northern Alliance, from some people in the northern part of Afghanistan, which we believe that even he doesn't even have that support from the northern population of Afghanistan, he does not enjoy the support of the majority of the Afghan population. The fact that he has.

VASSILEVA: How do you explain the fact that he has been nominated, that there are signatures? Even the president of Afghanistan thinks that he should get a posthumous Nobel Peace Prize.

FARYAL: Well, again, the question is -- I totally agree with Masouda Sultan, that how a warlord, how somebody who was involved heavily in the war between '92 to '96, which most of the death and the destruction and a lot of atrocities and crimes happened during that time, including raping many women, can be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

From our point of view, the fact that whether he will win it or he will not, which we don't think that Nobel Peace Prize actually can be given to or can be won by people who are not alive anymore, but nominating him, from our point of view, is an insult to our people, is an insult to democracy and human rights.

VASSILEVA: Ms. Faryal, thank you very much for speaking with us.

That's all the time we have for Q&A today. I'm Ralitsa Vassileva. The news is next on CNN.

END

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