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CNN Talkback Live
What Is Alleged Buffalo Sleeper Cell Guilty Of?; What Did the Three Florida Med Students Really Say in Shoney's?
Aired September 16, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
A sleeper cell based right here in the United States possibly ready to do harm to fellow Americans, or innocent men who just went to Pakistan for religious training? We're going to go live to Buffalo, the suburb of Lackawanna and find out more about the men authorities say were part of bin Laden's al Qaeda network.
And then, remember that terror scare that shut down Interstate 75 in south Florida on Friday? Well, stay tuned and tell us if you think Eunice Stone misinterpreted what she heard as she listened to three Muslim-American men talking inside a Shoney's restaurant. And as for those three students, what did they really say, and do they deserve to lose their internships at a Florida hospital? TALKBACK to their attorney in just a few minutes.
But first let's focus on Lackawanna, New York, just outside of Buffalo, where six men are in custody for allegedly providing support to the al Qaeda network.
Let's find out more from CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti.
Susan, if you would, tell us the latest on the arraignment of the sixth suspect.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Arthel.
Well, to be clear, FBI officials say they hesitate to call what was involved here, allegedly, a sleeper cell. The FBI says it really does not have specific information about any plans that the men involved here, allegedly, intended to carry out any kind of attack in the United States or elsewhere, and say they don't know what the men were actually up to.
However, this day we did learn of the arrest of a sixth person. He had his first appearance in court just a little while ago. His name: Maktar al-Bakri (ph); 22 years old, has been unemployed for a couple of years. Used to work as a delivery wholesaler here in Lackawanna, New York.
And he is now charged with providing material support to a terrorist organization; specifically that last summer, or in the summer of 2001, he went to Afghanistan, according to the government, to get terrorist training. Now, a not guilty plea was entered on his behalf at this stage and he was given a court-appointed lawyer. There will be a bond hearing on Wednesday.
This man, according to the government, left the United States in May of this year, went to Bahrain, apparently, according to authorities, participated in an arranged marriage, and then came back to the United States and left here again -- Lackawanna -- in July to go back to Bahrain.
For the cooperation of the government there, he was taken into custody over the weekend and flown to the United States. When they entered U.S. airspace the warrant was unsealed -- Arthel?
NEVILLE: Now Susan, all six men are being held in a detention center there. How long will they be held, and what are they being charged with?
CANDIOTTI: They are being held without bail at a federal detention just outside of Buffalo. They are all being charged with the very same thing, and that is providing material support to a terrorist organization.
Specifically what it boils down to, according to the government, is that simply by getting training over there they were lending their person, or their support, therefore, to terrorists.
However, the FBI and U.S. government officials also insist, again, that they have no information about any specific plans that these people had to carry out any kind of attack. They have no information on that, and acknowledge -- the FBI does -- that they don't really know what these men were up to.
NEVILLE: And have they gotten any further word from their attorneys? Is anybody talking?
CANDIOTTI: The defense attorney for this latest man, as well as the other defense attorneys, are trying to sort things out.
Today the defense attorney representing Mr. al-Bakri said that his client is very confused about what has happened. They will have an opportunity to argue for bond at a hearing on Wednesday.
However, U.S. government officials will ask the court that they be held without bond pending trial. And it's possible they could face a grand jury indictment, although sources tell me that no grand jury is seated at this time.
And so that's pretty much the situation here, although we do expect to learn more about what kind of evidence the government has during this hearing on Wednesday.
NEVILLE: Which was going to be my next question, but we'll wait until Wednesday.
Now in the meantime, Susan, I know you've had a chance to visit out there in Lackawanna. What are the people saying? What are the families of these men saying?
CANDIOTTI: The families of these men are insisting that their relatives could not possibly have been mixed up with intending to carry out any kind of terrorist attack. They say, to the best of their knowledge that, yes, they went to Pakistan for religious training, and then may have been transported -- they don't believe that they intended to be transported -- but taken to Afghanistan, and may have gone to these camps.
But according to the relatives, they don't think that their family members were capable of having carried anything out.
They insist that they were well-meaning, well-intentioned people that wouldn't hurt a fly.
In fact, in the case of the brother of one of the defendants, he said, yes, my brother went over there, but he came back much sooner than expected, and said he missed everything about America, including pizza, as a matter of fact.
So the family, the town of Lackawanna is in a state of disbelief, although the FBI says that it was originally information from the Muslim community that initially led them to start looking at these people several months ago.
But obviously nothing came together until a week ago, when one of the men allegedly told authorities that he acknowledged that he had gone to Afghanistan to go into a training camp, one of the defendants.
NEVILLE: Well, of course there are many layers to this story. We will keep peeling away.
Susan Candiotti, thank you very much for that update.
And by the way, in just a few minutes we're going to hear from the police chief of Lackawanna, and want to get your phone calls ready for that, when you can ask him questions.
But right now with us to help sort out the charges is former U.S. Attorney Kendall Coffey.
Welcome, Mr. Coffey.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Good afternoon.
NEVILLE: Good afternoon.
First of all, how serious are these charges, and what needs to happen to make them stick?
Well, the charges are plenty serious, because it's a 15-year felony to be basically providing material support and resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization.
The government's position, and probably a sound one, is that if they trained with al Qaeda amidst an environment that was directed toward the destruction of the U.S. or Israel, that's a crime, and it should be.
Additionally, assuming there's an indictment which is, of course, almost an inevitability here if the government is going to proceed with the case, there could be other charges as well.
If you look at the charges that were brought against John Walker Lindh, they included not only the charge of material support and resources, but also providing services to al Qaeda. So you could expect a couple of those counts, and also a conspiracy count.
Right now there are more questions than answers about where these guys were going. But clearly this is a very, very serious matter, and the prospect of real prison time is a real one.
NEVILLE: Right. And at this juncture, even the FBI agents are saying, listen, we're emphasizing that we don't have enough information to, in fact, pin these guys to -- connect these guys with al Qaeda cells or the al Qaeda in any way. And, of course, they're continuing their discovery period here.
What happens next? How difficult will it be to prove or to gain any necessary evidence?
COFFEY: Well, the government apparently already has some cooperators who were testifying that, in fact, these men went to al- Faruq (ph), the boot camp for al Qaeda.
And it's also possible that the charges could ratchet up. If it turns out that they were, in effect, on guard, waiting for instructions to commit acts of death and destruction against the U.S., the charges could get profoundly more serious.
And remember, al Qaeda is our nation's enemy. We are at war. So individuals who are adhering to our enemies, giving aid and comfort to our enemies, could even be charged with treason, depending upon the circumstances.
So, while it's much too early to know where this matter is going, it is a very, very serious criminal case at this point.
NEVILLE: Now lets say, if the only thing these guys did was go to these al-Faruq training camps, happened in the spring of 2001, obviously before the September 11 attacks. What if that's the only thing they did? Is this illegal?
COFFEY: Yes it is, because al Qaeda, at that time, was a designated terrorist organization. And even then, prior to September 11, it was a crime to provide any form of material support or resources, including, the way the government interprets the statute, personnel, providing your own services to al Qaeda.
So even before September 11, if they signed on for al Qaeda boot camp, learned to train, learned to carry arms, studied how to destroy the people of the United States, that's a crime.
NEVILLE: OK, listen Mr. Coffey, I have to take a break right now, but I do thank you for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
COFFEY: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK.
And we are going to hear from the Lackawanna police chief in just a minute. And I want to hear from you on this one. Give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or, of course, you can e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.com.
And later, we're going to talk to the attorney for those three Muslim medical students detained Friday while police searched their cars and shut down a south Florida highway.
Eunice Stone thought she heard the men planning terrorist activity, but what did they really say? We're going to ask their attorney, so stay with us, don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. We're talking about the arrests in connection with an alleged terrorist sleeper cell outside of Buffalo. Let's find out more about the arrests.
And joining us now is Lackawanna's police chief, Dennis O'Hara.
Thanks for joining us, Chief.
DENNIS O'HARA, LACKAWANNA POLICE CHIEF: Arthel, good afternoon.
NEVILLE: Good afternoon.
First of all, I want to know: How have the folks in Buffalo responded to all of this? What kind of calls are coming across your desk? What are their concerns?
O'HARA: Well, naturally there's a great deal of shock. This investigation, while it's been going on for six months, obviously was not privy to the public.
There's shock. This is a national that's happening -- unfolding in their backyards, per se. And there's a great deal of disbelief and shock right now.
NEVILLE: Sir, this investigation has been taking place for six months now. You, as a police chief, what have you been doing to make sure that this does not leak out and, I guess, scare the citizens of Lackawanna? That it didn't leak out before the story actually...
O'HARA: Well, in reality the FBI and their joint terrorism task force conducted the entire investigation. There's only one member of the Lackawanna Police Department who's a member of the task force. And besides him and myself, no one else was privy to the investigation.
It wasn't leaked out to the citizens in Lackawanna at all, and that's why there's a great deal of shock and surprise right now. NEVILLE: Now, of course you say that the citizens are a little bit nervous, naturally. What have you done, the police department? What have you guys done to assure them that they're safe and there's nothing to be overly concerned about?
O'HARA: Well, all the media coverage here has really helped get the word out that there was (sic) no imminent plans. This group didn't have any plans of performing a terrorist act here in the Buffalo area or anywhere, for that matter.
They're being charged with going to the training camp in Afghanistan, and that's the intent of it right now.
We don't know of any plans they had, so the media, such as CNN, is getting the word out. And the community is calming down. They're realizing that one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, and we're getting along as a community fine.
NEVILLE: OK Chief, hang on for me, if you would.
I have to go to Pennsylvania now. where Craig (ph) is standing by on the phone.
Go ahead, Craig (ph).
CALLER: Hi. First, I'd like to commend the Muslim community for standing up and turning in these people. Secondly, you don't -- no matter even if they're trying to back out of it now -- you don't go and train for terrorism to destroy and kill people unless you intend to use it. I think they were stopped before they used it.
Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK, thanks for calling in.
Chief O'Hara, I'm not sure if you were able to hear the phone call. I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to that quickly.
O'HARA: I was able to hear it. And, you know, he's got a good point. If you weren't going to use the training, why did you go there in the first place? I agree.
NEVILLE: OK, Chief Dennis O'Hara, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
O'HARA: You're welcome Arthel. Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK.
And joining us now is Jim Walsh, a political scientist and terrorism expert at Harvard University.
Mr Walsh, good afternoon to you.
JIM WALSH, HARVARD TERRORISM EXPERT: Hi Arthel.
NEVILLE: First of all, if you could, explain how the recruiting process works. Who does al Qaeda target, and who do they recruit?
WALSH: Well, they recruit people who are -- they tend to be male rather than female. They tend to be single rather than married. They tend to be younger rather than older. And they are people who already have some psychological predisposition to embracing Islamist -- not "Islamic," but "Islamist," that is to say, fundamentalist -- precepts. These are people who tend to -- they don't tolerate contradictions. they tend to think in absolutist terms.
And when the al Qaeda cell is able to identify these people, they bring them in, indoctrinate them, replace whatever community or family they have with their own community or family and, over time, socialize them to accept the notion that it's all right to kill innocent people; that there are only two types of people: the pure and the impure, the holy and the corrupt, and that it's all right to kill those who fall into that category called corrupt.
So it's a slow process, and it's targeted on a particular social profile.
NEVILLE: But is it almost a little bit covert in that it's kind of a bait-and-switch: We bring you in, we lure these recruits in under the guise of learning more about Islam or Islam -- being Islamist, I think you said. And then suddenly -- but now that we have you, we're sort of, I guess, going to brainwash you, redirect your thinking and go ahead and bring on the whole anti-American thought process.
WALSH: Absolutely. When you think about the process of first bringing them in, getting a sense that they are, in fact, trustworthy. That is to say, from an al Qaeda perspective. And then slowly raising their level of commitment by having them perform small tasks, then greater tasks, putting them to a training camp, letting them rise through the operation, giving them rewards until finally they see themselves as a full-fledged member ready to carry out a mission.
NEVILLE: So is it possible that someone could be recruited, again, thinking that they're going to learn more about Islam, having no intention to go to any sort of boot camp, al-Faruq or otherwise?
WALSH: Absolutely. I think that's certainly possible.
And it's also possible for people to have an experience and then change their mind: to go there, find out that this is not what they are all about, to have a change of heart and then to return.
So I wouldn't immediately rule that out as a possibility. Clearly these people are at least -- it's conceded that two of the five, two of the six did go to al-Faruq, the same training camp as John Lindh-Walker (sic).
But I think we've got to be careful here. We want to make sure that we do connect the dots; that we cross the "T"s and dot the "I"s and make sure that, having participated in that training camp, those individuals continued their allegiance to al Qaeda and were, in fact, providing assistance and support to al Qaeda. NEVILLE: So you're saying, don't be too careful on the side of making sure they're innocent until proven guilty, which is the process which has to be carried out. But yet, at the same time, don't ignore the dots and the "T"s to be crossed.
WALSH: I think we should just follow the evidence, follow the case law here and let the behavior -- let their behavior speak for themselves.
Now, these people have been taken into custody. But we're going to get a lot more information about them in the next several days. We're going to know where they were traveling. We're going to know what they bought on their credit cards. We're going to know where they were making phone calls.
So I think we're going to be having -- we'll have a lot more information in the coming days and weeks. And if all that information adds up so that it appears that these gentlemen not only attended a training camp, but were actively supporting al Qaeda, then I think the criminal process will work, and you'll see that go to trial, and a jury or a judge will find them guilty or innocent.
NEVILLE: We will be watching. Jim Walsh, thank you very much thank for joining us here today.
WALSH: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK.
Up next: Meet the lawyer for three Muslim medical students who could lose their internships over what they say is a misunderstanding.
I'll be back in a moment. Stay right there.
NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody.
The whole nation has been asked to keep eyes and ears open for terrorists. So when a Georgia woman reported overhearing three Muslim men plotting at a Shoney's, the men were traced to Florida and detained. Their cars were emptied and examined and Alligator Alley, which is part of I-75 in southern Florida, was shut down for hours on Friday.
Well, today Eunice Stone is sticking to her story. But the three men say Stone misunderstood them. They are all medical students, and have been released.
And joining us right now is Kamran Memon, their attorney.
Mr. Memon, welcome to the show.
KAMRAN MEMON, ATTORNEY FOR MEDICAL STUDENTS: Thanks for having me.
NEVILLE: And if you would, do us a favor here and get right to the heart of the guys' side of the story.
MEMON: Well, these are three medical students who were driving from the Chicago area to Florida so that they could start rotations at a Florida hospital. Like we all do, they stopped off at a restaurant to eat. Someone misunderstood what they were saying, saw that they appeared to be Muslim, and put the pieces together, called the police, and these three medical students never saw it coming.
NEVILLE: OK, let me ask you to go back a short period there for me and tell me, what were they saying? What did they tell you they were saying? What were they talking about?
MEMON: Well, the statement that I have heard from Ms. Stone is that...
NEVILLE: No, no, no, no, not from Ms. Stone. I want to know what your clients told you they were saying at that table.
MEMON: They were talking about one of them getting a car. As you know, two of them have cars, and so they were driving two cars down. The third one doesn't have a car.
He was talking about getting a car and bringing it down to Miami. My understanding is that's the statement that Ms. Stone heard.
NEVILLE: Which was?
MEMON: "Bringing it down."
NEVILLE: Bringing the car down. Do we have enough money, I guess they were talking about, or gas? What were they talking about, to bring it down.
MEMON: Well, they were talking about how much it would cost and whom they would be able to get the car from.
And my understanding is that Ms. Stone heard the words "bring it down" and assumed that they were talking about terrorism.
NEVILLE: You know, listen, as I said earlier, Eunice Stone, the woman who we're talking about, reported the students to the police, she's sticking by her story. She says she knows what she heard and would do it again, not for publicity, but as an American.
MEMON: You know, I would do the same thing...
NEVILLE: Hang on sir, let me listen to her sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EUNICE STONE, WITNESS: I've heard them say that I added salt and pepper to my story. Well, no, I didn't add any salt and pepper. I'm not in the habit of going around cooking up trouble and telling lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK sir, you were going to say what now?
MEMON: I would do the same thing. If I were in a public place and I thought that I heard people plotting an attack against the United States, especially in this climate, then would I call the police as well. I don't...
NEVILLE: Hey listen -- go ahead.
MEMON: I don't blame her for what she did. When the students were initially released, they were very upset because they had been put through a 17-hour ordeal.
But they've had a chance to think about it and to reflect, and I think they realize that if someone thinks they hear a threat of terrorism, then they have to inform the authorities.
NEVILLE: OK, listen Mr. Memon, I have to take a break right now. But listen, we have heard reports that all of this was a prank. I want to talk to you about that when we come back.
In the meantime, I want to remind everybody that all three students are Larry's guests tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." That's 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific. You don't want to miss it.
And, of course, don't miss the rest of our show. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.
We are talking to Kamran Memon. He is the attorney for those three Muslim-American medical students, who were part of -- I don't know if it's telephone or what the story is here -- in south Florida.
Listen, before the break I asked you about -- Mr. Memon, about this whole idea -- the reports about this whole story being a hoax, a prank. That these guys said some things to sort of -- and they embellished whatever their conversation was to perhaps -- because they were being stared at or something in the restaurant.
MEMON: Not true.
NEVILLE: Not true?
MEMON: They were just three friends who were on a trip. They were talking about a variety of things, and they absolutely were not interested in playing any games with anybody.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, I'm going to have some questions for you, sir, from our audience.
First, I'm going to go to California, where Ivy (ph) is standing by on the telephone. Go ahead, Ivy (ph).
IVY: Hello, Arthel. I would like to say that Eunice Stone did the right thing. This was not a profile situation. She went on the basis of what she heard. It was scary. It was very, very serious. Just think, if she hadn't tipped the detectives off, hours later, we had learned thousands of people had been killed. She did the right thing. I take my hat off to her, and I hope all Americans, if they're sitting next to people giving these despicable things about this country, turn them in. These three men should be deported!
NEVILLE: Wow! OK, Ivy (ph), thank you for calling in from California.
Those are strong words, those last ones. These three men should be deported to where, Mr. Memon?
MEMON: Well, you know, I agree with the first part of what Ivy (ph) said. We have to put our national security first. Obviously, I disagree with her. Apparently, her position is that people should be deported, regardless of innocence or guilt. These medical students are innocent. They have done nothing wrong. They have been charged with nothing. If law enforcement wants to speak with us about them, we will cooperate fully.
NEVILLE: Sir -- let me ask you this, sir. Do your clients, these medical students, understand why Eunice Stone, hearing, "What will it take to bring it down?" Do they understand why that might alarm her in this day and age?
MEMON: Absolutely. They do not have any animosity towards her. Perhaps, if they could take this all back and do it again, they would never have had that conversation at that restaurant. They don't blame her. And I think if they heard anyone plotting a terrorist attack...
NEVILLE: OK.
MEMON: ... that they would contact authorities themselves.
NEVILLE: OK, sir, I've got an audience question for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I -- first of all, I do agree with Eunice reporting what she heard. I think that I would do the same thing if I heard something like that. I don't think it was right that the three students lost their jobs or were asked to transfer.
But my question is, first of all, if they were innocent, why did they run from the police? Why did they run the toll booth? Did they run it first, and then the police started chasing them? I mean, why didn't they just pull over if they had nothing to hide or if nothing was...
MEMON: My understanding is that they did not flee from the police.
And by the way, they did pay the toll. Apparently what happened is, the person at the toll booth had been tipped off that these cars were going to be coming through. And so, when the first car stopped and paid the toll, they saw that the woman at the booth was very nervous, but she told them that they could go through since they had paid.
When the next car stopped, the driver saw that she was nervous. And so, he asked, "Did they pay the toll?" He thought that they might not have paid, and that's why she was upset. And he paid a toll for both cars. The toll was actually paid twice.
NEVILLE: So, then, what did the lady say when she was asked if they had paid -- the first car had paid the toll?
MEMON: She said, "No."
NEVILLE: She said, "No."
MEMON: That's right.
NEVILLE: But your clients say they did pay the tolls.
MEMON: That's right. And the lady at the toll booth was holding the $1.50 that the first car had handed her.
NEVILLE: Well, then, why would she -- OK, listen. I want to follow-up, but I want to let another audience member get in here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I'm going to get on the side with the med students and stuff. I think Eunice Stone should have heard a little bit more information. I think in the United States, we are seeing Muslim -- people of color, and we get all upset and excited.
I'm a person of color. I'm black. And I'm American, and I'm proud to be an American. But we see someone who is a Muslim, how automatically if they say one little thing wrong, we want to accuse them, bring them down. She should have sat behind them and got some more information, I think, before she called the police.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you very much.
Listen, I want to go ahead and pop up an e-mail to share with everybody before this segment ends. It's from Lee in Jacksonville, Florida. He says: "Eunice Stone had courage to alert authorities on the three medical students. There is no handbook for being a concerned citizen."
Not at all.
Listen, stand up for me here. I'm going to give you the last word on this. Errol (ph), what do you have to say?
ERROL: Well, I think Eunice Stone did the right thing. The country was on high orange alert, and she believed she heard something that was threatening to the country, and she did the right thing.
NEVILLE: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Memon, before you go, what's going to happen to these guys next, quickly? MEMON: Well, they are hoping to be able to continue their studies. All they ever wanted to do was be doctors and help people. And as long as law enforcement protects the hospital from people who are threatening the hospital, hopefully, everything will work out for everybody.
NEVILLE: Have they heard anything from the hospital?
MEMON: We have not heard anything yet. But as long as law enforcement protects the people at the hospital, that's all we hope for.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, Kamran Memon, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
MEMON: Thank you.
NEVILLE: And Larkin Community Hospital, the hospital where the students were going to start their internships in Miami, is expected to hold a news conference later this afternoon. It has been reported that the hospital will ask the medical students to do their internships someplace else.
CNN's Mark Potter will be covering that for us, and he joins us now outside of that hospital.
And, Mark, any forecasting going on down there? I mean, what might we hear from those hospital officials?
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're not sure yet what they are going to say, Arthel. But what I can tell you is that a meeting is under way right now, according to hospital officials, as they discuss what to do. We're told that they have been in contact with the lawyers and Islamic representatives in the area, and they are rethinking their whole position on this.
You are right. Over the weekend, hospital officials said that they did prefer that the students go someplace else, but that's because they had gotten a number of threatening e-mails as this scenario was playing out on Friday on Alligator Alley.
But the president of the hospital also did say at that time that he would keep an open mind, that he would agree to talk to community representatives, to representatives of the students, and then process that all. And he was also going to talk to law enforcement officials. And they were going to put that all together and come up with a decision on what to do.
The big concern here that he expressed at the hospital was the safety of the patients and the doctors and the staff, and they were going to address that issue, particularly with law enforcement, and see what they could come up with.
And so, in about an hour and 15 minutes, we are expecting an announcement on what they have come up with. We are told by a spokesman for the hospital that they are coming to a conclusion, and we'll see what they have to say.
By the way, we just spoke to one of the students, Kambiz Butt, out in Los Angeles just a moment ago, and he said that he had not been involved in any of these discussions, and had not yet heard anything from the hospital as to what his status might be, but they'd like to stay here if they could. But he also said if they have to go somewhere else, that's OK, as long as it is a comparable program.
But again no decision yet made here at the hospital.
NEVILLE: And, of course, one program that's sanctioned by their medical school.
OK, Mark Potter...
POTTER: Right, exactly.
NEVILLE: Yes, Mark Potter, thank you very much for joining us here today.
And up next: Julianne Malveaux and Deborah Perry give us the story, a left and right punch.
And then: Ten issues every woman should be thinking about right now. Find out what they are after this. There are the ladies standing by. Get ready, ladies. Are you ready?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ready.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE, Julianne Malveaux and Deborah Perry talk about the 10 most important issues women face.
And then tomorrow, don't miss your chance to talk with former U.N. weapons inspector, Scott Ritter. He'll be right here in Atlanta, taking your e-mails and phone calls, and explaining why he thinks the U.S. should not attack Iraq. Don't miss it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Right now, I want you to meet two women who, politically, are about as far apart as two people can be. They agree on pretty much nothing. And yet together, they have managed to write a book about what women really need to know. They are both old friends of TALKBACK LIVE.
Julianne Malveaux -- there she is. JULIANNE MALVEAUX, CO-AUTHOR, "UNFINISHED BUSINESS": Hi, Arthel. How are you doing?
NEVILLE: Hi, Julianne -- a Democrat and syndicated columnist, and Deborah Perry, a Republican political commentator.
Hey, Deborah.
DEBORAH PERRY, CO-AUTHOR, "UNFINISHED BUSINESS": Hi, Arthel. How are you doing?
NEVILLE: I'm good today.
Listen, your book is called, "Unfinished Business: A Democrat and a Republican take on the 10 most important issues women face."
Well, well, well, I want to get to that. But before we get to the book, I just want one quick response to this story in Florida. What should happen with those med students, Julianne?
MALVEAUX: They should be allowed to continue matriculating in school, even if they were doing some trash talk, which I suspect is what happened. I don't think that they were dangers, and I think that when the school says they may be dangers to patients and others, I reflect on African-Americans who were not allowed to become medical residents in the past because they might have been dangers.
I think that there's some overreaction here. I think that high alert ought to also be high caution. They were vetted. They were not threats. Let's move on.
NEVILLE: Deborah.
PERRY: Well, we don't know that they weren't threats, so that's the problem. The difference here is, in our modern day situation, we don't necessarily need probable cause in order to facilitate whether someone is a potential threat. Everyone is a viable threat if they are going to put out conversation there.
I don't think this woman in Georgia particularly felt the need to go to the police and make something up. We have got to depend on American citizens to come forward with the things they have heard. Because what's the alternative? God forbid, she didn't report it, and something did happen on September 13. Where would we be today?
MALVEAUX: But, Deborah...
PERRY: So, we do depend on American citizens to come forward and go to the police, and she did the most responsible thing possible.
MALVEAUX: I'm -- you know, she may have been responsible. I'm not so sure about that, but there's an implicit bias. I fly a little more than I probably should. I see people who look like me. I see a lot of Middle Eastern people pulled out of line to be checked. I have seen so many things, some of which I don't have time to go into, where our implicit biases play a form of racial profiling, and we should not do. Don't tell me that, what other alternatives do we have? We also have to be clear and be fair.
Let me just share one experience, Arthel. I was on a plane, and there were two young white men talking a lot of trash to an Arab man -- clearly Arab. He had his turban on. And a white woman who was sitting in front of them went to the pilot, and said she was uneasy, not about the two young white men, but about the Middle Easterner. And so, they were going to take him off the plane. And couple of us said, yo, just a minute. He was not the problem. These little drunk boys were the problem. And, you know, they finally took all three of them off, which made it even worse, you know.
But I'm sitting there saying, how can somebody randomly decide that is a three-way problem, the Middle Easterner is going to be the one you are going to deal with? So, I'm just a little nervous about this, and my nervousness, of course, comes from my background.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, we have to take a break, but we want to hear about the book, the 10 most important issues facing women. And you can tell me if any of them are important to you. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE with me -- Arthel, Julianne and Deborah. We'll back, OK?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody.
We are talking with Julianne Malveaux and Deborah Perry about the 10 big issues women face.
OK, ladies, here is what I want to do. I'm going to go down the list, and I'm going to let one of you go first to respond to these issues. Who wants to go first?
PERRY: It depends on the issue.
NEVILLE: OK, let's...
MALVEAUX: You know what? I will let Deborah go first this time.
NEVILLE: OK, Deborah, then, you're going to go first on everything, OK? Just like in a little pattern here.
PERRY: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: ... all that.
NEVILLE: OK, OK, Deborah, you go first on the first five, and then, Julianne -- OK.
MALVEAUX: OK.
NEVILLE: All right, all right.
PERRY: You have to make everything balanced here, Arthel. NEVILLE: I will. OK, Deborah, equal pay.
PERRY: Equal pay. Let's get past this 72 cents myth on the woman's dollar to the man's dollar. The bottom line is, when we take and compare women's and men's salaries and we incorporate factors, such as age differences and educational attainment and various other influence which dictates a person's pay, we find out that women actually make 98 cents to the man's dollar.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Deborah, you really believe that? Are you serious?
PERRY: I am totally...
NEVILLE: Come on!
PERRY: I am dead serious about that.
MALVEAUX: Arthel, she believes it. But guess what? She's wrong. Ebonically speaking, she's wrong. You know, she believes it, but...
NEVILLE: I got that. I understand Ebonics.
MALVEAUX: But you know, she has looked at this in a very different way than I do. When you begin to adjust for all of the things, you still end up with an unexplained portion of the differential. You and I know it. Every woman sitting in your audience that sex discrimination is still a reality in the workplace.
NEVILLE: I'll going to see. Ladies in the audience in the workforce, do you agree with Deborah that it's equal -- equal pay is in order? Let me see your hand and let me hear your applause -- loudly.
Oh, that's weak. If you can't hear, Deborah, about three women clapped. Hold on. Let me see why.
PERRY: I hear a lot of clapping there.
NEVILLE: Hang on. Carolyn (ph), why do you say yes? You think it's equal?
CAROLYN: I think it's equal. I think we have every opportunity. We're in a wonderful country.
MALVEAUX: It sounds like Deborah...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Where do you work, Carolyn (ph)?
CAROLYN: In Colorado.
NEVILLE: I mean, what type of field, which profession? CAROLYN: Real estate.
NEVILLE: Oh, well, see, Carolyn (ph) would say that, real estate. She's probably the girl in Colorado selling all of the big mansions and making all those great...
MALVEAUX: Yes...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: But I think in that field -- yes -- that it probably is -- but probably women make more money in the real estate field.
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: Well, Carolyn (ph) fills out (ph) that 100 percent -- right on, Carolyn (ph). But she's probably -- real estate may be one of the few places, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
MALVEAUX: I mean, Carolyn (ph) -- Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy did a study with the GAL (ph), looking at seven fields where women needed advanced degrees, and found there, 68 percent to 79 percent. So, Deborah wants to play it down, but the fact is that women, even with MBAs and PhD's, experience a pay difference.
NEVILLE: OK.
PERRY: You know what, Arthel? We've got to...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: You want to move on?
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: ... on my side.
NEVILLE: Guys, let's move on to the next subject. Let's move onto the next subject, OK?
Julianne, work and family.
MALVEAUX: I think that we need a family-friendly workplace. We need to pay attention to the fact that many, many women in the workplace have family considerations they need to juggle. We need affordable child care. We need flexible schedules. We need to make sure that our society accommodates the reality of working women.
NEVILLE: Deborah.
PERRY: We don't necessarily disagree here. It's just a matter of whether government mandates to all businesses, which it can't do a one-size-fits-all approach, or whether it's incumbent upon individual businesses. There are countless examples out there, where they have come up with very creative solutions, so that workers can strike up better balance between work and family.
And so, it's working well, and we just need to get businesses and managers used to thinking that...
NEVILLE: Yes, but you know what?
PERRY: ... telecommuting is an option.
NEVILLE: I think...
MALVEAUX: Arthel, go back to your audience...
NEVILLE: I think -- but you know what? Julianne...
MALVEAUX: ... and ask them if it's working well.
NEVILLE: But, Julianne...
MALVEAUX: Just ask your audience...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: But, Julianne, you know what? I have to say, though -- I have to say, though, I think that because more women are in charge that you have more people in companies that are more family-friendly. I mean, we have -- our boss here is a woman, and she understands the importance of, you know, women and -- and men for that matter, having to take care of their kids.
MALVEAUX: Well, I think that's terrific.
NEVILLE: I mean, so I think we are seeing a little bit more of that.
MALVEAUX: I think that's terrific. But, you know, the -- you, Arthel, are more likely to be able to negotiate a deal as the anchor and terrific host that you are, than your receptionist is going to be able to do. And that's one of the issues.
NEVILLE: Would you...
MALVEAUX: I don't think that government...
NEVILLE: Julianne...
MALVEAUX: ... should wag the whole tail.
NEVILLE: Right.
MALVEAUX: But I think that government should be the leader in this. And the fact is that when you talk to women, the average woman who works full-time...
NEVILLE: Right.
MALVEAUX: ... full-year, is still earning less than $30,000 a year.
NEVILLE: Listen...
MALVEAUX: Ask her what she can negotiate for her family.
NEVILLE: Right. You know what? I have to take a break. But by the way, you know what? I like your idea of bringing my child to work, if I have one, one day, please, God.
OK, I'm going to put the cramp right here in the middle of the circle. How about that?
PERRY: It would make great television.
MALVEAUX: Right.
NEVILLE: Yes, it would. OK, listen, I have to take a break. Right now, though, let's let Judy Woodruff tell us what she's working on, on "INSIDE POLITICS."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Now, of course, we said we were going to go to the subject of education next with Julianne and Deborah, but Debbie (ph) here has something to say about this.
DEBBIE: Well, I just want to say I'm a college administrator in North Carolina, and my male counterparts are making $10,000 to $15,000 more than me. And I want America to know that I know I deserve more, because I am twice as good.
PERRY: Then ask for it.
MALVEAUX: You go, girl.
PERRY: Then ask for it.
MALVEAUX: You go, girl. You go, girl.
PERRY: That's just the point, Arthel. This is probably one area where Julianne and I do agree, is that women can learn a lot from men in terms of asking for what they want.
MALVEAUX: Exactly, Deborah.
PERRY: We are the first to take the first job that comes along with the same -- with the first salary package...
MALVEAUX: But, Deborah...
PERRY: ... that comes along. We need to step up to the plate and ask for what we want.
MALVEAUX: But, Deborah, I would warrant to say that this woman has probably asked for more. Look at her energy. If she doesn't get it, what is she going to do? Walk off her job? She probably has children to support, bills to pay. If they say no -- in North Carolina, a higher education, my girl is sitting there saying, well, I'm going to have to suck it up and ask for it the next time.
The bottom line, though, Arthel, if I could with all kudos to the sister who raised the point, is that the reason why Deborah and I came together -- you can see, we agree on nothing, except for the fact that women need to be more involved in the political process, more informed about what's going on. We offer, at the end of each of our chapters, various organizations that people can go to, to get plugged in. And we have -- the last chapter is called "Seven ways to raise your voice."
So, we think that our entire policy arena...
NEVILLE: OK, Julianne...
MALVEAUX: ... could be transformed if more women were involved.
NEVILLE: Hang on for me. I've got the male perspective here in the audience. They are young, but I want to hear what they have to say.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're young, and they're cute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it depends on the job, like if it's a low-paying job, they'd get the same. But if it's a higher- paying job, they'd get different.
NEVILLE: The men getting more?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
NEVILLE: OK, well, how do you see it, Matt?
MATT: That's what I was kind of thinking about, because my dad is an electrician. And it's kind of the business you have.
NEVILLE: Oh, I see. So, the fact by his vocation and profession, that's why he makes more than, say, someone you might know who might be a secretary or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My mom is an X-ray technician.
NEVILLE: Your mom is an X-ray technician? OK, listen, I've got to you guys after the show. I'm running out of time here. OK, stay with me.
Julianne and Deborah, thank you so much for joining me here today.
MALVEAUX: Thank you, Arthel.
PERRY: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Exactly. I got all caught up in this conversation and ran out of time for you.
Listen, thanks everybody for watching. I'm Arthel Neville.
Don't forget, tomorrow is your chance to talk to former weapons inspector Scott Ritter about why he is against a war with Iraq.
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