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Morality and the Mob

Aired September 17, 2002 - 10:42   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: To many "Sopranos" fans, Sunday nights on the couch takes on an almost religious devotion. In fact, our next guest this morning says that there are biblical lessons hiding beneath the plotline. He penned his own good book, if you will, "The Gospel According to Tony Soprano," an unauthorized look into the soul of TV's top mob boss and his family.
Chris Seay is pastor of Eclesia (ph), a progressive Christian community in Houston, Texas, and he joins us this morning to explain this one.

Good to see you. How are you?

CHRIS SEAY, AUTHOR, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO TONY SOPRANO": Good to be with you, Leon.

HARRIS: I'm glad you are with us. I know we've tried to do this a couple of times now, but breaking news has always bumped us out of this. This conversation is one I have been waiting for a couple of weeks to have.

I shouldn't be surprised to know that a pastor can look at a television show and find so many different levels of spirituality. But "The Sopranos?" Explain that.

SEAY: Well, it's what Jesus did. He was really good at walking the streets and finding spiritual truth in things that were around him, whether it was the fields and the crops or it was the fish and the sea, he found spiritual truth there. I got hooked on "The Sopranos" and found that there was a great deal of truth there.

HARRIS: Explain some of this now. I wish we had time to go through every one of these characters. Believe me, folks, I have had time to spend with this book, and as the pastor says, it really gives some pretty interesting assessments. Let's start with the son, A.J., a guy who steals communion wine to get drunk, and he smokes dope at his own confirmation, and you say he is the most spiritually mature individual on the show.

SEAY: He is at least asking the right questions. When A.J. approaches his confirmation, he is asking the question, is God dead? Does God really exist? And his parents aren't happy he is asking the questions, but just in asking the questions, it is a sign of maturity. Most of us that come to a place of faith have to begin there. And A.J. has at least begun at a really honest and healthy place.

HARRIS: You mentioned -- you talk quite a bit about the family and acceptance and all that, and show that the relationship in the church is supposed to be like that, and this family, it has got so many different weird things going on. You see parallels between the family of the church and this "Sopranos" family. How do you explain Tony? He has so many different complicated things going on?

SEAY: Yes, he does. He is a very flawed man. That's part half makes the show work. I quote Peter Crete (ph), a Christian author, philosopher and theologian, who says, "To see a man as he really he is, to see him with both eyes open, is like a roller coaster ride," and knowing Tony -- or we feel like we know him from watching the show, that's what it is. It's a roller coaster ride. But his flawed character, this anti-hero, is part of what draws us in. It's much like the characters of the Bible, the people like Abraham, and David and Solomon and the like. There were murderers, philanderers; there were not good people necessarily, they were not morality heroes, but what made them work and why they're important in scripture is because they loved God and God loved them and chose to forgive them. And Tony can receive that same find of forgiveness. I mean, he is searching for it, I think.

HARRIS: You also find parallels between the Mafia and the kind of interdependence that the Bible preaches about as well.

SEAY: There is a sense of community that I think has really drawn people in. The fact these people really are loyal to each other. A family that makes a covenant to really love and cherish one another.

Now the difficulty is if you violate that covenant, we'll kill you. That's not something we really want to imitate. But the reality is, there is a loyalty there -- and the food, we are drawn in by the food, and the great acting and superb writing.

But that kind of loyalty is appealing to American citizens, and people across the world.

HARRIS: If you can find something great to say about Tony, I'm surprised to see how badly you handled, Doctor Melthey (ph). You don't see to be very nice to her. You insist basically that she is doing Tony a disservice because she hasn't helped him, and that his real problem is a spiritual one and not necessarily one that can be helped by psychology or medication, and what not. You don't have many kind words for her.

SEAY: I think she is a great character. I love watching her on the show, but the reality is, she is dealing with Tony in a moral vacuum, a moral Never Never Land, where there is no right and wrong. And as long as she tries to help Tony deal with his stress, and anxiety and guilt, and help him live better because of it, medicate it, whatever, she is not helping Tony.

The reality is Tony's problems are related to morality and questions of right and wrong and faith and God. And until she begins to deal with those issues, she is not helping Tony; she is only masking the guilt that he should feel. He should have anxiety. He should pass out with guilt over the people that he has killed. He crashes a Suburban and passes out over a grill at a family cook out. This is guilt he should feel because of the life he has chosen, and that is part laugh makes him appealing. He is not a sociopath. He at least feels bad about the things that he has done.

HARRIS: That's a point that you say Carmella really tries to make in his life.

SEAY: Yes, yes, Carmella is trying to be a good Catholic and good Christian. But the materials -- materialism that she receives. When she is ready to leave Tony, he will come home with a $30,000 fur coat, and all of a sudden, she is ready to stick around a bit longer. That's the tension I think we are going to get into this season, is will her faith really take root? Or as David Chase has said before, the creator of the show, will she -- will her hypocrisy -- he says she is the first one going to Hell out of all the characters?

HARRIS: I know you're a preacher. Don't you think you need to confess about this obsession you've got with this show.

SEAY: You know, Leon, I described the people at HBO like crack dealers. You know, they give you your first month for free and it gets you hooked. I tell you, the show is just so good, it is so darn good, that it hooks you in because of the writing, and the story is one that you want to be a part of.

So, yes, there would be pastor friends of mine that would definitely criticize me, though many of them haven't seen the show, and the ones that have end up being drawn if as well. It is -- I don't believe that it glorifies violence and deviant sexuality...

HARRIS: You don't? Even though there's plenty of it there?

SEAY: I really believe that you see the kind of violent lifestyle that Tony leads and that others lead, and you realize, these are miserable people; these are not people you want it imitate, and that's what I'm most afraid and what I talked most about in the book, is that any of us that watch TV, film, listen to music, whatever art form, and whatever art form, we just absorb it. We don't think through it, we don't think critically, we are in big trouble. So if you begin to imitate "The Sopranos," you know, like a Star Trek fan would, and you know you start going into work dressing like Tony Soprano, and exposing chest hair and wearing big gold medallions, it's not going top go over well.

But if you contemplate the important issues that raised in it. No other TV show takes faith this seriously, where you have entire hours of episodes devoted to questions of Heaven, and Hell, and faith and family. So it can be worthwhile if you view it through that lens.

HARRIS: This did turn out to be just as interesting as I thought it was going to be. Thanks very much. Appreciate the time. Good luck with the book. It's called "The Gospel According to Tony Soprano: An Unauthorized Look into the Soul of TV's Top Mob boss and His Family," a very interesting read.

Good luck to you. Take care. We'll see you down the road. SEAY: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired September 17, 2002 - 10:42   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: To many "Sopranos" fans, Sunday nights on the couch takes on an almost religious devotion. In fact, our next guest this morning says that there are biblical lessons hiding beneath the plotline. He penned his own good book, if you will, "The Gospel According to Tony Soprano," an unauthorized look into the soul of TV's top mob boss and his family.
Chris Seay is pastor of Eclesia (ph), a progressive Christian community in Houston, Texas, and he joins us this morning to explain this one.

Good to see you. How are you?

CHRIS SEAY, AUTHOR, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO TONY SOPRANO": Good to be with you, Leon.

HARRIS: I'm glad you are with us. I know we've tried to do this a couple of times now, but breaking news has always bumped us out of this. This conversation is one I have been waiting for a couple of weeks to have.

I shouldn't be surprised to know that a pastor can look at a television show and find so many different levels of spirituality. But "The Sopranos?" Explain that.

SEAY: Well, it's what Jesus did. He was really good at walking the streets and finding spiritual truth in things that were around him, whether it was the fields and the crops or it was the fish and the sea, he found spiritual truth there. I got hooked on "The Sopranos" and found that there was a great deal of truth there.

HARRIS: Explain some of this now. I wish we had time to go through every one of these characters. Believe me, folks, I have had time to spend with this book, and as the pastor says, it really gives some pretty interesting assessments. Let's start with the son, A.J., a guy who steals communion wine to get drunk, and he smokes dope at his own confirmation, and you say he is the most spiritually mature individual on the show.

SEAY: He is at least asking the right questions. When A.J. approaches his confirmation, he is asking the question, is God dead? Does God really exist? And his parents aren't happy he is asking the questions, but just in asking the questions, it is a sign of maturity. Most of us that come to a place of faith have to begin there. And A.J. has at least begun at a really honest and healthy place.

HARRIS: You mentioned -- you talk quite a bit about the family and acceptance and all that, and show that the relationship in the church is supposed to be like that, and this family, it has got so many different weird things going on. You see parallels between the family of the church and this "Sopranos" family. How do you explain Tony? He has so many different complicated things going on?

SEAY: Yes, he does. He is a very flawed man. That's part half makes the show work. I quote Peter Crete (ph), a Christian author, philosopher and theologian, who says, "To see a man as he really he is, to see him with both eyes open, is like a roller coaster ride," and knowing Tony -- or we feel like we know him from watching the show, that's what it is. It's a roller coaster ride. But his flawed character, this anti-hero, is part of what draws us in. It's much like the characters of the Bible, the people like Abraham, and David and Solomon and the like. There were murderers, philanderers; there were not good people necessarily, they were not morality heroes, but what made them work and why they're important in scripture is because they loved God and God loved them and chose to forgive them. And Tony can receive that same find of forgiveness. I mean, he is searching for it, I think.

HARRIS: You also find parallels between the Mafia and the kind of interdependence that the Bible preaches about as well.

SEAY: There is a sense of community that I think has really drawn people in. The fact these people really are loyal to each other. A family that makes a covenant to really love and cherish one another.

Now the difficulty is if you violate that covenant, we'll kill you. That's not something we really want to imitate. But the reality is, there is a loyalty there -- and the food, we are drawn in by the food, and the great acting and superb writing.

But that kind of loyalty is appealing to American citizens, and people across the world.

HARRIS: If you can find something great to say about Tony, I'm surprised to see how badly you handled, Doctor Melthey (ph). You don't see to be very nice to her. You insist basically that she is doing Tony a disservice because she hasn't helped him, and that his real problem is a spiritual one and not necessarily one that can be helped by psychology or medication, and what not. You don't have many kind words for her.

SEAY: I think she is a great character. I love watching her on the show, but the reality is, she is dealing with Tony in a moral vacuum, a moral Never Never Land, where there is no right and wrong. And as long as she tries to help Tony deal with his stress, and anxiety and guilt, and help him live better because of it, medicate it, whatever, she is not helping Tony.

The reality is Tony's problems are related to morality and questions of right and wrong and faith and God. And until she begins to deal with those issues, she is not helping Tony; she is only masking the guilt that he should feel. He should have anxiety. He should pass out with guilt over the people that he has killed. He crashes a Suburban and passes out over a grill at a family cook out. This is guilt he should feel because of the life he has chosen, and that is part laugh makes him appealing. He is not a sociopath. He at least feels bad about the things that he has done.

HARRIS: That's a point that you say Carmella really tries to make in his life.

SEAY: Yes, yes, Carmella is trying to be a good Catholic and good Christian. But the materials -- materialism that she receives. When she is ready to leave Tony, he will come home with a $30,000 fur coat, and all of a sudden, she is ready to stick around a bit longer. That's the tension I think we are going to get into this season, is will her faith really take root? Or as David Chase has said before, the creator of the show, will she -- will her hypocrisy -- he says she is the first one going to Hell out of all the characters?

HARRIS: I know you're a preacher. Don't you think you need to confess about this obsession you've got with this show.

SEAY: You know, Leon, I described the people at HBO like crack dealers. You know, they give you your first month for free and it gets you hooked. I tell you, the show is just so good, it is so darn good, that it hooks you in because of the writing, and the story is one that you want to be a part of.

So, yes, there would be pastor friends of mine that would definitely criticize me, though many of them haven't seen the show, and the ones that have end up being drawn if as well. It is -- I don't believe that it glorifies violence and deviant sexuality...

HARRIS: You don't? Even though there's plenty of it there?

SEAY: I really believe that you see the kind of violent lifestyle that Tony leads and that others lead, and you realize, these are miserable people; these are not people you want it imitate, and that's what I'm most afraid and what I talked most about in the book, is that any of us that watch TV, film, listen to music, whatever art form, and whatever art form, we just absorb it. We don't think through it, we don't think critically, we are in big trouble. So if you begin to imitate "The Sopranos," you know, like a Star Trek fan would, and you know you start going into work dressing like Tony Soprano, and exposing chest hair and wearing big gold medallions, it's not going top go over well.

But if you contemplate the important issues that raised in it. No other TV show takes faith this seriously, where you have entire hours of episodes devoted to questions of Heaven, and Hell, and faith and family. So it can be worthwhile if you view it through that lens.

HARRIS: This did turn out to be just as interesting as I thought it was going to be. Thanks very much. Appreciate the time. Good luck with the book. It's called "The Gospel According to Tony Soprano: An Unauthorized Look into the Soul of TV's Top Mob boss and His Family," a very interesting read.

Good luck to you. Take care. We'll see you down the road. SEAY: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com