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CNN Live Today
Interview with Brian Jenkins; Intelligence to Be Released Tomorrow
Aired September 17, 2002 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Washington says it is cracking al Qaeda one terrorist at a time. Officials are sounding new optimism in the fight against the terrorist organization. Much of it from the capture of a self-confessed 9/11 conspirator.
CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena joins us now -- Kelli, what can you tell us about Binalshibh and what he had to say?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, so far, not a lot that the intelligence community considers useful. When he was debriefed while being held in Pakistan, Pakistani intelligence officials were mostly concerned about whether or not they could find anything on him that linked him to any act that occurred in Pakistan.
We are told by sources once they were basically convinced that he didn't have anything to do specifically with any act of terror or any crime in Pakistan, they, of course, released him to the United States and the interrogation begins at an undisclosed location. He is allegedly chock-full of information.
He is, by his own admission, directly -- was directly involved in the September 11 attacks, and so that is something that investigators want information on. He is the first person that is being held that has any direct contact with that operation.
Also, if he has been involved or in touch with al Qaeda operatives over this past year, then he may have some very good up-to- date information about possible al Qaeda plans for the future.
So that, of course, is the hope that they will be able to glean information about the operation, what is left of it, and how it is working, communicating now, as opposed to one year ago -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: So, Kelli, what can you tell us about the interrogation process, and what happens for him after that? Come to the U.S.?
ARENA: Well, he will be held indefinitely, and as you know, another al Qaeda operative, Abu Zubaydah, has been in custody since March. There is no rush to bring him to any sort of justice, either through trial or by military tribunal.
The goal with Zubaydah and, of course, that will be with Binalshibh is to interrogate them to learn as much as they possibly can, and then there is a long process of corroborating that information, fitting the pieces of the puzzle together. There has been some discussion about possible military tribunal, but we are told that there has been no decision made on that front.
No rush here to do anything except question, find out as much as they can at this point. That is the priority, and will be for some time.
PHILLIPS: Now, could he, in anyway, affect the case of Zacarias Moussaoui?
ARENA: He could. If Binalshibh was to turn around and say Moussaoui had absolutely nothing to do with September 11 at all, he was not intended to be a last-minute, you know, 20th hijacker, he was not involved in the operation in any way, shape, or form, it is very likely that the defense for Moussaoui would motion to use that information in his trial, it could muddy the waters a bit.
Of course, that is speculation. It all depends on what Binalshibh offers up in terms of information, but that is something that will throw a wrench into the works, and that already, as you know, Kyra, is a very complicated situation as it stands now, without this new factor being added into the process.
PHILLIPS: Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena, thank you.
ARENA: You are welcome.
PHILLIPS: Well, some insights into how U.S. authorities go about suspected terrorists to talk, Brian Jenkins is a recognized authority on international terrorism. He serves as senior adviser at the RAND research institute. He joins us now from Los Angeles -- good to see you, sir.
BRIAN JENKINS, RAND CORPORATION: Good to see you.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about that interrogation process. What can you tell us? What do you know? Kelli did mention this is what he is going to go through.
JENKINS: Well, this will be a long process. It may take -- it may take weeks or months. We can't say at what point he will decide to start talking. Probably initially, there may be some resistance. I don't know, he may instead try to provide some disinformation to mislead us. It is hard to say how that will go.
PHILLIPS: Now, could there be a reason for why they are not bringing him to the United States right now? Obviously, when someone is interrogated in the U.S., there are a lot of concerns about civil rights and things like this, whereas, if you are overseas, things could be handled differently.
JENKINS: The fact that he would be held overseas certainly would not excuse us from treating him humanely. The prisoners who are held at Guantanamo are treated humanely. The location does not dictate, specifically, the kind of treatment that prisoner may get.
We are obliged to treat all prisoners humanely. PHILLIPS: Well Binalshibh, how do you see him ranking among al Qaeda operatives? I mean, this is someone that has been an alleged ringleader in the September 11 hijackings, someone that works side by side with another alleged ringleader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
JENKINS: Well, you know, the fact is, we are not talking about a hierarchical organization. Al Qaeda does not have ranks, so we can't say that this individual is a colonel or a general. Certainly, this is not John Gotti, but this is not simply another cockroach.
This is a -- this is a fellow that did play a key role, according to our views, and acknowledged by him in the September 11 attacks, but more importantly is that this particular fellow, along with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, also were featured most recently in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera. And the fact that these two individuals appeared in that tape without any other contemporary material from Osama bin Laden himself, or Sheikh Sbari (ph) leads one to speculate that these were two figures that were being deliberately presented as future leaders by the al Qaeda organization.
Certainly, therefore, his arrest right now, right on the heels of this broadcast, the announcement that he is in captivity, must be to a certain degree demoralizing to the al Qaeda operatives.
PHILLIPS: So how much -- how much of an impact will his arrest make on al Qaeda, and how it operates, and does this indicate some type of security breech into al Qaeda? I mean, does this mean it is going to be -- because he was captured, it is going to be easier to go after other key leaders within al Qaeda?
JENKINS: Well, I mean, the fact that he was captured clearly indicates a security breech in al Qaeda, and all others that were in contact with him are now going to have to go to ground. They are -- they are not going to know what we know, or what we don't know, or how soon he might provide additional information, so they have to scurry for cover. That will disrupt their communications. Hopefully, that will disrupt their operations.
In addition, while al Qaeda can replace its losses, the fact is that wild-eyed fanatics are plentiful, brains are precious. This fellow was a planner. We don't want to elevate him too high, though, because look, this is a fellow that was supposed to be one of the hijackers who would have committed suicide on September 11 last year. That doesn't make him the key leader of the organization, if he is someone who could be sacrificed like that.
PHILLIPS: All right. Brian Jenkins, senior adviser at the RAND research institute. Thank you.
JENKINS: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: There is new information today, we are being told, on U.S. intelligence failures prior to last year's suicide hijackings.
Our national security correspondent David Ensor joining us now with these new developments -- hi, David. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra. Well, the House-Senate intelligence probe starts its open hearings tomorrow with testimony from two family members of 9/11 victims, and then, what could be a fascinating first look at some of the intelligence the U.S. collected prior to the attacks.
The head of the joint House-Senate probe into what intelligence failures there may have been will, for the first time, make public scores of until now classified intelligence on threats to the U.S. prior to 9/11, and on plots to use aircraft as terrorist weapons.
A congressional source close to the investigation says the staff has gone through over 400,000 documents, looking for intelligence clues the CIA and other agencies might have missed. The source says reading the intelligence is sobering, because so much of it shows the depth of hatred towards this country on the part of many extremists overseas.
The congressional source also says there is no smoking gun so far, no piece of evidence that proves U.S. intelligence should have been able to prevent the attacks, but the source says, the evidence does suggest that the government knew a lot more about the seriousness of the threat from Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda than it ever told the American people.
Now, the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Richard Shelby, has also been talking to reporters, and he has said that with time running out on the Congressional session -- it is supposed to wind up in mid-October -- he now favors another blue ribbon commission to be set up to go further into the intelligence mistakes made and lessons learned. Shelby pointed out that nine different bodies investigated Pearl Harbor.
In any case, with these declassified accounts, Kyra, of secret intelligence coming out in large numbers tomorrow, it should be an interesting day.
PHILLIPS: No doubt. David Ensor, thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Tomorrow>
Aired September 17, 2002 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Washington says it is cracking al Qaeda one terrorist at a time. Officials are sounding new optimism in the fight against the terrorist organization. Much of it from the capture of a self-confessed 9/11 conspirator.
CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena joins us now -- Kelli, what can you tell us about Binalshibh and what he had to say?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, so far, not a lot that the intelligence community considers useful. When he was debriefed while being held in Pakistan, Pakistani intelligence officials were mostly concerned about whether or not they could find anything on him that linked him to any act that occurred in Pakistan.
We are told by sources once they were basically convinced that he didn't have anything to do specifically with any act of terror or any crime in Pakistan, they, of course, released him to the United States and the interrogation begins at an undisclosed location. He is allegedly chock-full of information.
He is, by his own admission, directly -- was directly involved in the September 11 attacks, and so that is something that investigators want information on. He is the first person that is being held that has any direct contact with that operation.
Also, if he has been involved or in touch with al Qaeda operatives over this past year, then he may have some very good up-to- date information about possible al Qaeda plans for the future.
So that, of course, is the hope that they will be able to glean information about the operation, what is left of it, and how it is working, communicating now, as opposed to one year ago -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: So, Kelli, what can you tell us about the interrogation process, and what happens for him after that? Come to the U.S.?
ARENA: Well, he will be held indefinitely, and as you know, another al Qaeda operative, Abu Zubaydah, has been in custody since March. There is no rush to bring him to any sort of justice, either through trial or by military tribunal.
The goal with Zubaydah and, of course, that will be with Binalshibh is to interrogate them to learn as much as they possibly can, and then there is a long process of corroborating that information, fitting the pieces of the puzzle together. There has been some discussion about possible military tribunal, but we are told that there has been no decision made on that front.
No rush here to do anything except question, find out as much as they can at this point. That is the priority, and will be for some time.
PHILLIPS: Now, could he, in anyway, affect the case of Zacarias Moussaoui?
ARENA: He could. If Binalshibh was to turn around and say Moussaoui had absolutely nothing to do with September 11 at all, he was not intended to be a last-minute, you know, 20th hijacker, he was not involved in the operation in any way, shape, or form, it is very likely that the defense for Moussaoui would motion to use that information in his trial, it could muddy the waters a bit.
Of course, that is speculation. It all depends on what Binalshibh offers up in terms of information, but that is something that will throw a wrench into the works, and that already, as you know, Kyra, is a very complicated situation as it stands now, without this new factor being added into the process.
PHILLIPS: Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena, thank you.
ARENA: You are welcome.
PHILLIPS: Well, some insights into how U.S. authorities go about suspected terrorists to talk, Brian Jenkins is a recognized authority on international terrorism. He serves as senior adviser at the RAND research institute. He joins us now from Los Angeles -- good to see you, sir.
BRIAN JENKINS, RAND CORPORATION: Good to see you.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about that interrogation process. What can you tell us? What do you know? Kelli did mention this is what he is going to go through.
JENKINS: Well, this will be a long process. It may take -- it may take weeks or months. We can't say at what point he will decide to start talking. Probably initially, there may be some resistance. I don't know, he may instead try to provide some disinformation to mislead us. It is hard to say how that will go.
PHILLIPS: Now, could there be a reason for why they are not bringing him to the United States right now? Obviously, when someone is interrogated in the U.S., there are a lot of concerns about civil rights and things like this, whereas, if you are overseas, things could be handled differently.
JENKINS: The fact that he would be held overseas certainly would not excuse us from treating him humanely. The prisoners who are held at Guantanamo are treated humanely. The location does not dictate, specifically, the kind of treatment that prisoner may get.
We are obliged to treat all prisoners humanely. PHILLIPS: Well Binalshibh, how do you see him ranking among al Qaeda operatives? I mean, this is someone that has been an alleged ringleader in the September 11 hijackings, someone that works side by side with another alleged ringleader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
JENKINS: Well, you know, the fact is, we are not talking about a hierarchical organization. Al Qaeda does not have ranks, so we can't say that this individual is a colonel or a general. Certainly, this is not John Gotti, but this is not simply another cockroach.
This is a -- this is a fellow that did play a key role, according to our views, and acknowledged by him in the September 11 attacks, but more importantly is that this particular fellow, along with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, also were featured most recently in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera. And the fact that these two individuals appeared in that tape without any other contemporary material from Osama bin Laden himself, or Sheikh Sbari (ph) leads one to speculate that these were two figures that were being deliberately presented as future leaders by the al Qaeda organization.
Certainly, therefore, his arrest right now, right on the heels of this broadcast, the announcement that he is in captivity, must be to a certain degree demoralizing to the al Qaeda operatives.
PHILLIPS: So how much -- how much of an impact will his arrest make on al Qaeda, and how it operates, and does this indicate some type of security breech into al Qaeda? I mean, does this mean it is going to be -- because he was captured, it is going to be easier to go after other key leaders within al Qaeda?
JENKINS: Well, I mean, the fact that he was captured clearly indicates a security breech in al Qaeda, and all others that were in contact with him are now going to have to go to ground. They are -- they are not going to know what we know, or what we don't know, or how soon he might provide additional information, so they have to scurry for cover. That will disrupt their communications. Hopefully, that will disrupt their operations.
In addition, while al Qaeda can replace its losses, the fact is that wild-eyed fanatics are plentiful, brains are precious. This fellow was a planner. We don't want to elevate him too high, though, because look, this is a fellow that was supposed to be one of the hijackers who would have committed suicide on September 11 last year. That doesn't make him the key leader of the organization, if he is someone who could be sacrificed like that.
PHILLIPS: All right. Brian Jenkins, senior adviser at the RAND research institute. Thank you.
JENKINS: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: There is new information today, we are being told, on U.S. intelligence failures prior to last year's suicide hijackings.
Our national security correspondent David Ensor joining us now with these new developments -- hi, David. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra. Well, the House-Senate intelligence probe starts its open hearings tomorrow with testimony from two family members of 9/11 victims, and then, what could be a fascinating first look at some of the intelligence the U.S. collected prior to the attacks.
The head of the joint House-Senate probe into what intelligence failures there may have been will, for the first time, make public scores of until now classified intelligence on threats to the U.S. prior to 9/11, and on plots to use aircraft as terrorist weapons.
A congressional source close to the investigation says the staff has gone through over 400,000 documents, looking for intelligence clues the CIA and other agencies might have missed. The source says reading the intelligence is sobering, because so much of it shows the depth of hatred towards this country on the part of many extremists overseas.
The congressional source also says there is no smoking gun so far, no piece of evidence that proves U.S. intelligence should have been able to prevent the attacks, but the source says, the evidence does suggest that the government knew a lot more about the seriousness of the threat from Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda than it ever told the American people.
Now, the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Richard Shelby, has also been talking to reporters, and he has said that with time running out on the Congressional session -- it is supposed to wind up in mid-October -- he now favors another blue ribbon commission to be set up to go further into the intelligence mistakes made and lessons learned. Shelby pointed out that nine different bodies investigated Pearl Harbor.
In any case, with these declassified accounts, Kyra, of secret intelligence coming out in large numbers tomorrow, it should be an interesting day.
PHILLIPS: No doubt. David Ensor, thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Tomorrow>
