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CNN Talkback Live
Free-For-All Friday: Iraq
Aired September 20, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Michael Smerconish, with the pleasure of filling in for Arthel Neville.
It's "Free-For-All Friday" and we have a really special show planned. Instead of having our usual compliment of guests for "Free- For-All Friday," meaning four talk show hosts, today, four members of Congress will join us on "Free-For-All Friday." And we have got a dynamite lineup of issues that we are going to get into today.
First, we welcome Illinois Democratic Representative Jesse Jackson Jr.; Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth; Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence; and Colorado Democrat Representative Diana DeGette.
Welcome all, members of Congress.
Hey, we have a lot to cover today. And we'll start with the resolution on Iraq, some tough language from President Bush, and what Congress wants to hear before committing to a plan of action. And then stay tuned. Some sports fans try to turn baseball into a contact sport. Also: Somebody is comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler. And we'll tell you who.
We'll get to those subjects in just a moment, but first Iraq: The members of Congress no doubt are familiar with some language that has been proposed by the Bush administration with regard to our military action in Iraq. Let me show it to you. The president wants congressional approval to use "all means he determines to be necessary, including force."
My question -- and I'll start with Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. -- if today you had to vote on the language that I have just shown you, would you be supportive of the Bush administration?
REP. JESSE JACKSON (D), ILLINOIS: Well, based upon the language I saw yesterday, Michael, I would not be supportive, in part because the kind of force that the president seeks under this resolution is open-ended. It does not lay out the goal.
If the goal is to eliminate weapons of mass destruction, if the goal is to eliminate an imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction being used upon our interests abroad or interests here at home, the president already has the power, as commander in chief, to act immediately for 60 days if in fact there is an imminent danger, a clear and present one, facing the people of our country.
The problem here, I believe, however, is that the president is seeking a regime change. And to give the president of the United States, under this resolution, the power to have an unlimited access to the United States military in Iraq should be troubling for all Americans.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Jackson, if it's a terroristic regime, if it's a regime that sponsors terrorism and that threatens the sanctity and security of the United States, then why not support W., if that's his goal?
JACKSON: You know, Michael, we need more than congressional authority. We need moral authority.
We must go in under the appropriate U.N. resolutions, after having built an international consensus, which is what President Bush's father did. But he must also go in with the authority of the American people. The American people must be prepared for a long and a protracted struggle. Our goal should be containment. And if in fact there is an imminent threat to the people of the United States, the president already has that power as commander in chief.
SMERCONISH: Let me go across the aisle and welcome Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
Congressman, what do you say, sir, about the proposed language in the resolution?
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Well, Michael, first of all, I believe it is essentially a reaffirmation of what we said in the wake of the horrible attacks of September 11 of one year ago, where we authorized our commander in chief to take whatever steps necessary.
Now, you'll recall, just a few weeks ago, many of us said, "Mr. President, as we contemplate expanding the war on terror to deal with Iraq, it would be good for you to return to the Congress of the United States." And I guess the bottom line, after listening to my friend Jesse, is this point for members of Congress and for the American people to remember.
We take our oaths of office to the Constitution of the United States, not to the charter of the United Nations. And our commander in chief told us in his State of the Union message that this war on terror would take many forms and that we would reserve the right to act preemptively.
I believe Saddam Hussein represents a clear and present danger to the United States. And I believe it is in our national interest and in the protection of our people to move forward accordingly with this resolution.
Oh, one other note Michael.
SMERCONISH: Sure.
HAYWORTH: Believe me. Understand this. It is a collaborative effort. You will see members of Congress in the House and Senate change some of the language, I believe. But your question was today, would I support this language? And my answer to you, sir, is, yes, I would.
SMERCONISH: All right, I've got a deadlock so far. That's the beauty of TALKBACK LIVE today.
Congressman Pence, what say you, sir? Are you going to break this logjam?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, I'm probably not, although I want to grant Jesse a terrifically important point that he raises here: that what we see in the language of this resolution, Michael, doesn't really seem to reflect what some in the White House and even the president has said, namely that the objective here is nothing short of regime change.
I actually went to the House floor this week, Michael, and suggested rather strongly that, if our objective is in fact to remove the military power and the governmental power of Saddam Hussein -- which is a move that I would support -- that, to do so, it may be appropriate for Congress to debate even stronger than a resolution on the use of force. Perhaps we should debate a declaration of war.
When we were attacked by Spain in Havana Harbor when the USS Maine was sunk in 1898, we didn't pass a resolution on the use of force, Michael. We declared war, the same after Pearl Harbor. I at least want to respect Jesse's call here for clarity, for moral clarity and for constitutional clarity.
SMERCONISH: Well, can I put you down as a yea vote on the resolution language that we've shown you to start the program?
PENCE: Well, I'm going to support the use of force. But, like J.D. just said, I think it's important we answer to the Constitution, that we answer to history. And I think Congress ought to at least debate what should be the proper form of the resolution, even if that means declaring war.
SMERCONISH: All right, I think it's two to one. I think it's a 2-1 vote.
Let me go to Congresswoman DeGette.
How do you see this? How would you vote if that were the proposed language of the resolution and today you had to respond to the bell and cast a ballot?
REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Well, first of all, it's DeGette, just to let you know.
And let me say, I, like Jesse, am very, very troubled by the language of this resolution. Not only does it let the president do anything it wants, it lets him do anything he wants in the entire region. So it's not just limited to Iraq. And, as Jesse says, if the president believes we are under an imminent threat by Iraq, come tell Congress.
Don't just ask Congress to be a rubber stamp for what you want to do, because, if we don't act with the international community, if we don't act with a knowledgeable Congress, and, as Jesse says, with the consent of the American people, we are going to have a whole lot of American men and women coming back in body bags. And we don't have a clarity of purpose there. The other thing...
SMERCONISH: All right, Congresswoman DeGette, thank you.
Let me include Rima from Ohio, who is part of the TALKBACK LIVE audience here.
Welcome to the program. And fire off your question.
RIMA: Well, it's a comment first.
I really fear the language that was used by the president yesterday. And I also fear the language that is used by the two congressmen here on the panel today.
SMERCONISH: Tell me why, Rima. What about it troubles you?
RIMA: It troubles me because this is a decision that is not only going to impact America. This is a decision that impacts the rest of the world. And there is a mind-set sometimes in America -- I'm from another country and came here. But the mind-set is that only Americans are important. You hear people being wounded in other countries, but it's how many Americans that are being wounded.
SMERCONISH: Well, but how about the mind-set that says we have got to lead, because no one else is going to pick up the mantle and wage war against terrorists? If we don't do it, nobody else is going to.
RIMA: But other countries are trying to. And their efforts at peace are being diminished by the talk of war.
SMERCONISH: Let me include Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr.
Go ahead, sir.
JACKSON: Michael?
SMERCONISH: Yes, sir.
JACKSON: Michael, if China decides it wants a regime change in Taiwan and wants to go at it alone, the international community would be outraged by this. If India decided it wanted a regime change in Pakistan, the rest of the world would be outraged about this.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: That's why we must not only have the congressional authority. We must have the moral authority.
SMERCONISH: But, respectfully, sir, I don't think...
JACKSON: And the president should follow his father's advice and build an international consensus.
SMERCONISH: But I don't think that anybody is saying that Taiwan threatens the future of the free world. Nobody is talking about Taiwan having a nuclear arsenal that can overthrow...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Am I wrong, J.D. Hayworth?
HAYWORTH: No, you are not, Michael.
And here's the other distinction. And I think it's something that we have to make clear. And I thank Rima for her point. Again let me make this point. It's not that we are blissfully unconcerned with the rest of the world. But as a United States representative, my oath of office is to the United States Constitution and to the people of the United States and to act in our interest to protect our people and to protect our country, first and foremost. It doesn't mean we give short shrift to the rest of the world.
But there's another point here that I think we have to make. And it is a key distinction. Secretary of State Powell made it in hearings just yesterday, I believe. What we are talking about in terms of Iraq and regime change is liberation from a tyrant. And certainly we have not reached the point of moral relativism in our world where we will accept the glib analogy that one man's tyrant is another man's champion.
We have seen clearly -- and the president laid out the case before the United Nations last week -- Saddam Hussein has thumbed his nose at the same international community that our friend from Ohio just mentioned.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: I have got to call time out. We have got a great panel: four members of Congress on TALKBACK LIVE.
We have got to move on, but we want to hear from you. Call us at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.com.
Stay right there. We are coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Today on TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The German justice minister likened President Bush's actions to those of Adolf Hitler.
HERTA DAEUBLER-GMELIN, GERMAN JUSTICE MINISTER (through translator): Unfortunately, there was no tape recording being made of this conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: A slip of the tongue or was something lost in the translation? What does it sound like to you?
TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: Our top priority is to fight the war against terrorism. I'm concerned that this administration is shifting gears to this Iraq issue, which is very important, but dropping the ball on terrorism. And that's exactly the danger of this kind of thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday." I'm Michael Smerconish. And, today, we're simulcasting again on my radio show, The Big Talker 1210, back in Philadelphia.
The subject continues to be Iraq. We've just heard words from Senator Feingold, who has some concerns about our ability to juggle responsibilities against terrorism and Iraq at the same time.
Congressman Pence, do you share that concern?
PENCE: I don't share that concern, Michael.
And this is the point that I think the administration has to do a better job making, as Rima in your audience just suggested. This administration has to make the case -- which can be made, at least, Michael, through circumstantial evidence -- that there are direct ties of support between the regime in Baghdad and not only al Qaeda, but also the organization of now the late Abu Nidal, who was assassinated in his home in Baghdad in August.
There is simply no question that challenging the regime in Baghdad is part of the war on terrorism.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Pence, I agree with you.
But let me ask you this question, sir: why not a full-scale presentation of the evidence? Show me the blowups. Show me the affidavits. Give me all the data. Make the case, like Adlai Stevenson made in the U.N. at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Congressman, why haven't we seen that so far?
PENCE: It actually is a bit of a mystery to me. And, candidly, as all of us here know, the president is very much intending to come to Capitol Hill at some point in the coming weeks and months, certainly before the initiation of hostilities. SMERCONISH: I would love to see him do that.
PENCE: And at that time, I think he's going to connect the dots. The American people and the world community is going to see that the safety of peace-loving people in the world is dependent on the elimination of the regime of Saddam Hussein.
SMERCONISH: I happen to agree with you.
Congresswoman DeGette, I want to show you, if I may, ma'am, an e- mail that we received during the break.
Can we put that up on the screen? And I'm going to ask the congresswoman to respond. "I think we should pay attention to Rumsfeld and go into Iraq and kick some butt." That's a sentiment I'm hearing all over.
DEGETTE: Well, it's not a sentiment I'm hearing in my district.
And I agree with you. If the president really thinks that Iraq is an imminent threat to us, a threat that would require us to go in with force, why doesn't he come to Congress and show that to us? We have been in briefings for the last week and we have seen no evidence of imminent danger.
At the same time, the administration has increased the threat of terrorism to high in this country. Al Qaeda is still out there. We are still trying to fight terrorism. Why on earth should we be now shifting our focus, like Senator Feingold says, and attacking Iraq? If Iraq is an imminent threat, Mr. President, come, show Congress. We will all support dealing with that, because, obviously, it's a threat to our security.
SMERCONISH: Hang on. If I could just hold the members of Congress for a moment, my friend Jeff here is in from California.
Hey, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, sir.
JEFF: Thanks. Nice to be here.
I think the congresswoman is somewhat naive if she thinks that we don't have enough evidence that Saddam Hussein is planning a terrorist attack, and part of the -- all of what's gone on since 9/11 and more.
SMERCONISH: You believe your president, sir. When George W. Bush tells you this is something we have got to do, you trust him and you believe him.
JEFF: Well, it's not...
DEGETTE: Do you know something, Jeff?
JEFF: Well, it's not so much that I believe him. It's that I believe that the evidence -- and it's not just George W. Bush. I have a lot of respect for Colin Powell, for Condoleezza Rice.
SMERCONISH: Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld.
JEFF: And Secretary Rumsfeld. I have a lot of respect for the people that are there. And I think we made a mistake in not taking Saddam out during Desert Storm.
SMERCONISH: Let me give Congresswoman DeGette a very quick response opportunity, because it was directed toward you, Congresswoman. Please.
DEGETTE: Well, I think that President Bush's father may have made a mistake that I think the president is trying to rectify a little bit.
But Congress hasn't been given any evidence that shows that Iraq is an imminent threat to us right now. And I'll tell you who is. Al Qaeda is an imminent threat. And we need to go after them. And if they show us that Iraq is a threat, we should go in there, too. That's just practical.
SMERCONISH: J.D., we've only got a half-a-minute.
Can we do both? Can we go after al Qaeda and go after -- I call him Saddam Hussein? Can we do both at the same time?
HAYWORTH: Of course we can.
These goals are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, remnants of al Qaeda are headquartered in Iraq. We have had reports of contacts between those who attacked us September 11 of last year and Iraqi intelligence. And we also have word, based on Saddam's exiled bomb- maker, that if Saddam is able to get fissionable materials and enriched uranium from the black market in Germany and Brazil, it is the belief of the exiled bomb-maker of Saddam that Iraq could have a nuclear bomb by Christmas.
SMERCONISH: All right, I have got to declare Congress in recess on TALKBACK LIVE.
The German justice minister allegedly compares President Bush to Adolf Hitler? What's up with that?
You can weigh in on this right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: All right, welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
Hey, Germany's justice minister has set off a furor over a statement she allegedly made comparing President Bush's stance on Iraq to tactics used by Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler. A German newspaper quoted her as saying: "Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler also used." She says her remarks were taken out of context.
Let me ask Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. Sir, to the extent that she was accurately quoted, would you condemn that statement?
JACKSON: Of course I would. That's outrageous. To compare the president of the United States to Adolf Hitler, it's absurd. It's ridiculous. That is not the context of post-9/11 America, where the anxiety of the American people is overwhelmed by terrorism. So the context of the statement is ludicrous. It's ridiculous. And the analogy, quite frankly, is horrific.
But the reality is also this. And I must separate those comments from what the facts are in our own electoral context. And that is this. President Kennedy said that we as a nation, in order to protect our freedom, are prepared -- just like J.D. Hayworth said -- to bear any burden or to pay any price to protect our freedom.
I believe genuinely that the president of the United States is interested and determined to do just that. So, he must come before the American people to get the moral authority, not just the Congress, make the case that we must bear any burden, pay any price, including raise taxes if necessary to pay the price of freedom to ensure that terrorism is contained in Iraq and/or that we remove Saddam Hussein.
We cannot continue to allow the idea of war and the talk of war to move forward without the moral authority, in addition to congressional authority.
SMERCONISH: Let me ask Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
Congressman, does the president even need to come to the Congress? Isn't this all window dressing? Can't he just go about whatever he needs to do taking out Saddam Hussein?
HAYWORTH: Well, Michael, as my friend Jesse mentioned at the outset of the broadcast, of course, under the War Powers Act, the president could take that action.
But you'll recall -- and this one of the great things about our constitutional republic, and, quite candidly, the exercise we are engaged in right now. Different ideas, advice comes in. The Constitution plays a major role, of course. And in a free society, the president feels it's important to come and make the case. That's why you see a parade of officials for the administration coming to Capitol Hill for both public briefings and classified briefings for members of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Hang on, I have got one of your constituents here, Congressman. Jill is from Arizona and joining us at TALKBACK LIVE.
Hi, Jill.
JILL: Hello.
I think what's unfortunate is that we are missing the crucial piece of this quote. And it wasn't about the comparison to Hitler. It was about that, as we focus our attention on Iraq, that both the president and our legislators are able to be successfully diverted from social issues, like the fact that Arizona is having one of the biggest budget deficits ever, and not because of 9/11 and not because of Iraq, but because of local problems that our legislatures are not concentrating on now.
SMERCONISH: Go ahead, J.D. You respond to Jill, if you would, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Sure. And I'm glad to see my friend from Flagstaff there in Atlanta today. The president, as a matter of fact...
(APPLAUSE).
SMERCONISH: You better hope she votes down here, I think, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Well, the irony is, they have realigned the district. So I have Flagstaff now. But with the realignment of districts, I don't have Flagstaff any longer.
But I can tell her this. The president of the United States will be visiting Flagstaff later this month. And he will take a look first-hand at public housing programs, at many social needs. And I think it's important to remember, as you point out, of course you don't make these decisions mutually exclusive of one or the other.
SMERCONISH: Got to prioritize.
Hey, I've got to cut you short. We are taking another recess. We'll let everybody get in on this in a moment.
Up next: fanatics. Take a look at this attack on a Kansas City Royals coach. Are sports fans getting out of control?
We'll be right back to TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-for-all Friday," a congressional session. I'm Michael Smerconish in for Arthel Neville.
All right, a lot of people saw this fight on television. A man and his 15-year-old son rushed the field at Comiskey Park during a White Sox-Royals game, and jumped Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa. Gamboa says he doesn't know why he was attacked and beaten. Look at that footage.
Earlier this week...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM GAMBOA, ROYALS FIRST BASE COACH: I was shocked, because it came from behind. And to tell you the truth, I didn't have any clue what had happened. I just felt like I had gotten blind-sided from behind. I had no idea by who, because I knew we weren't have having a problem with the other team. And, you know, when I rolled over and saw that there were two of them, I tried to kick one guy to keep him abreast, and then the other guy kind of smoked me on the side here. And then fortunately for me, by that time, our team got on the field to -- you know, to protect me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: We hope they used a rubber hose on that guy, at least I do.
Earlier this week, police had to use pepper spray to break up a fight at FedEx Field during the Eagles-Redskins football game. The spray even got onto the field, making some of the players sick.
Congressman Pence, what's the explanation for this? What's going on?
PENCE: Well, the explanation is probably extreme inebriation and probably the worst example of fatherhood that we will see in this decade.
(APPLAUSE)
I was brokenhearted for the 15-year-old boy, Michael, that would be disserved by his father in this way and now face criminal charges. But may be the silver lining is a bit of a wake-up call. Thank god, they had no intent other than complaining about a call, and maybe it will result in some more common sense security for our players and, frankly, the spectators at major sporting events.
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman DeGette, has the time come to say, no beer at baseball, no beer at -- no beer at any of these sporting events?
DEGETTE: Well, I think that they could limit the beer certainly, as it goes along. I have season tickets both to the Broncos and the Rockies, and they limit the beer that you have. But really, isn't the responsibility a parent's responsibility to say, you know, I'm not going to drink too much, and furthermore, I'm not going to let my kid go beat -- and I'm not going to give the bad example to my kid?
So, I really think parents need to take a lot more responsibility in our society, and we need to teach our kids good values.
SMERCONISH: Agreed. Steven is on a phone call for us on TALKBACK LIVE. He, Steven, how are you?
STEVEN: I'm fine. I'm just totally shocked at this footage. I am a certified football and baseball coach through the National Youth Sports Coaches Association, and this is so what we are not -- we don't want to teach our kids to do something like this. We are trying to teach them the fundamentals in how to play the game. This is exactly what we are outraged totally about. I mean, this is ridiculous to go to an America's past-time game and have something like this happen. I just hope that, like you say, the parents need to have a better role in raising their kids correctly.
SMERCONISH: Steven, thank you for the call. We appreciate it.
Fate (ph) joins from us Maryland. You were at that Eagles game?
FATE (ph): Yes, I was.
SMERCONISH: What went down there?
FATE (ph): Well, basically, I think what happens is, fans get a lot of beer in their system, and I think nowadays, they're trying to just outdo each other. What happened was, they were trying to control the crowd, and the pepper spray from the police got into the actual players' area and so forth.
SMERCONISH: I heard it was the Skins fans, not the Eagles fans -- not the guys from my neck of the woods.
FATE (ph): Well, it depends on who is writing the paper.
SMERCONISH: All right, Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr, what say you, sir, about this scandal in sports?
JACKSON: Well, we're living in a violence-charged environment from sports, but also from the very top of our administration. We need to take a deep breath. We need to obviously get back to some basic values and try and find alternative dispute resolutions. And so, what we saw yesterday in Chicago was horrific. And I want to associate myself with what my friend from Indiana, Diana DeGette, has said about this, but let me also say if there's a silver lining -- my silver lining is just a little bit different -- we take baseball very seriously here in Chicago.
SMERCONISH: J.D. Hayworth, you've got some experience in these matters as a former announcer. Tell me what you think about this.
HAYWORTH: Well, the scene was both bizarre and disgusting, and it has no place in civilized society. Now here's the distinction I make, and I hope I didn't misunderstand my friend, Jesse. , did I hear you say that this not only happened last night at Comiskey, but involves also levels of the administration? What was...
JACKSON: No, what I said was we live in a violence-charged environment where almost all solutions result in some violent act, some desire to go to war, and we are not choosing peaceful resolutions to problems. That's why we need to take a deep breath. I am very concerned about that.
HAYWORTH: Well, sir, thank you for a chance to clarify it. Let me draw this distinction.
JACKSON: Thank you for the opportunity.
HAYWORTH: I think we all disagree with wanton violence and attacking people unaware, and certainly we have had this magnified to the 1,000th power with what happened to people that worked in New York and Washington one year ago.
But here is the distinction. At an athletic event, rules of personal conduct and civility apply. When it comes to protecting American people, who are law-abiding, and our American nation, sadly sometimes we must reserve the ability to have a deterrent through the use of -- dare I say it -- military force and violence. So, let's make that clear as well.
JACKSON: Well, J.D....
HAYWORTH: And let's also understand that we need to protect our people and that it is all set up in the context. So, I disagree with the notion that somehow the administration mirrors what happened last night at Comiskey Park.
SMERCONISH: Go ahead, Jesse -- real quick.
JACKSON: J.D., allowing inspectors back into Iraq, ensuring that those inspectors go back in and have unfettered access to all of the country, is part of a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Rushing to go a congressional resolution and ignoring the inspectors is choosing war over the opportunity and the alternative of peace.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: And spending a year waiting to go see that happen also accords (ph) an attack worse than what we saw last September 11.
SMERCONISH: Hey, I've got to call a recess again.
JACKSON: Michael...
SMERCONISH: It's a special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. We started out talking baseball. We're back to the U.N.-Iraq issue.
Up next, the representatives can tell us where they think women belong. We are going to play Augusta National right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Today on TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-for-all Friday," four members of Congress talking about sex, interns and rock 'n' roll. The "Flash Round" is coming up, so get off that couch and call me at 1- 800-310-4cnn, or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS)
DEGETTE: ... to play golf. Why wouldn't Augusta want to let women in? I mean, there's more and more of them who will pay dues to the club. And I agree with Jesse. I don't -- we don't have to tell them to take women, but it would be in their best interest.
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman DeGette, you mentioned...
DEGETTE: I'd also like to note, you know, the first woman ever has just qualified to play in the PGA tournament.
SMERCONISH: And they're a number...
DEGETTE: Is Augusta going to let her play?
SMERCONISH: There are a number of feminists who don't want her to play in the tournament, because she'll have to tee off from the men's tees, and the course is going to be 1,000 yards longer than what she is...
DEGETTE: She'll make her own decision whether she wants to play.
SMERCONISH: Do you think she should play?
DEGETTE: I think she should make that decision. If she wants to play, good for her.
SMERCONISH: What's wrong with...
DEGETTE: Is Augusta going to let her do it?
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman, we are not talking about a restaurant. We are not talking about a hotel. It's not a place of public accommodation. If guys want to hang out with guys at a golf club or at a poker game, what's wrong with that?
DEGETTE: Well, there's nothing wrong with a private club just having guys or women. What a lot of us have an issue with is, now a major national golf tournament will be played there, and I think it makes a statement if the major networks don't advertise and so on. I think that it says we believe that people should have equality in playing golf.
SMERCONISH: Lets me get Congressman Pence in on the Augusta national action. What say you, sir?
PENCE: Well, Michael, I think I am the worst golfer in Congress, which is saying a lot. And let me say, I believe in the freedom of association, which includes the freedom to be silly in this country. There's just no question that the Masters is an important institution in America. Augusta is a legendary course. There are dozens of women's tournament at that golf course every year. There's a couple of hundred of old men who run Augusta and are part of the membership there should simply see the light of day and restore the luster of this great institution so we can move on and get to the kind of bad golf that I play.
SMERCONISH: Hey, J.D. Hayworth, should they give in, or should they fight the fight?
HAYWORTH: Well, first of all, Michael, let me point out that Maricopa County, Arizona has more golf courses than anywhere else in America. And if you want to substitute the magnolias of Augusta for the Surwaro (ph) of our desert, we welcome all golfers here. It helps our economy.
SMERCONISH: Hey, we've got Jill from Arizona. She's back in your corner now that she has heard you say that. All right, listen...
HAYWORTH: But she knows how good the courses are, and Forest Highlands up in Flagstaff, too.
SMERCONISH: All right, thank you, Congressman.
Hey, do we need to be seeing more of Miss America, when TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Michael Smerconish in for Arthel Neville.
Hey, this Saturday night up in Atlantic City, they're going to crown another Miss America, but here's the problem. The ratings keep going down for the whole program as they get away from bathing suits and, well, head more toward the books. It seems like brains are more important than -- shall I say -- one's appearance?
So, the question is, is it time for the Miss America Pageant to head back in the direction of a beauty contest as opposed to the scholarship program that it has become?
Now, I think I know what Congresswoman DeGette is going to say, but I'm going to ask her to begin with anyway.
DEGETTE: I think that the sponsors at least always claim the Miss America contest was for scholarships anyway. And I also don't think anybody would say that it's no longer a beauty contest. But let me tell you something. I became friends with a Miss America a couple of years ago. The Miss America who we had, she took diabetes issues on as her cause. And I'm the co-chair of the Diabetes Caucus in Congress. She came to Congress to lobby for more funding for diabetes research. And you know what? She was the most effective lobbyist we ever had for diabetes. All of the congressmen were eating out of her hand.
So, as far as I'm concerned, if we can get great emissaries like that out of the Miss America contest, who can help the millions of people with diabetes -- it was unbelievable. I had Miss America over to the members' dining room, and the male members of Congress would line up to tell her...
SMERCONISH: Now, there's a surprise.
DEGETTE: ... how much in appropriations they wanted to give.
SMERCONISH: Now, there's a surprise.
DEGETTE: But you know what they wanted to tell her was how much they were going to give for diabetes research. So, I think Miss America, while she's beautiful, she can actually make a big difference to societies.
SMERCONISH: Let me -- thank you, Congresswoman. Let me talk to my friend, J.D., for a minute. J.D., if you and I could just talk mono-a-mono (ph) for a moment. Do we need to head more back, you know, in the direction of the bathing suits and away from the books?
HAYWORTH: Well, when you bring up this topic, Michael, I'm reminded that two Arizonans have worn the crown of Miss America. And the one I remember most, 1965, Vonda Kaye Van Dyke (ph), and I've got to tell you in all sincerity, I don't remember the swimsuit competition, but her talent. She was a ventriloquist, and I thought that was just great, given that particular time in my life being in the second grade.
So, I think it's a balance of things, of course, but...
SMERCONISH: You've got a constituent or a program for every subject here this afternoon.
HAYWORTH: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He always does, Michael.
HAYWORTH: Remember, we take care of our states here, Michael.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Pence, what do you think about this?
PENCE: I think this is a great topic, and let me go on the record and say on national television, Michael, that my wife, Karen, having not won the Miss America contest was robbed in her youth. She's a beautiful and talented woman. But I think the tasteful display of feminine beauty is a great tradition in America and it ought to be a part of this great country.
SMERCONISH: Real quickly, Congressman Jackson, let me just slide him in.
PENCE: What I object to is the political correctness, Michael. That's the problem.
SMERCONISH: Oh, I agree with you. Congressman Jackson, what do you say, sir?
JACKSON: I don't think that there's anything wrong with the Miss America Pageant. I think it's a great pageant, and today's women are beginning to reflect the desires of today's women, and they're not just beauty queens in terms of external beauty, but they're also beautiful internally. And so, I think that the pageant should be supported...
SMERCONISH: You say leave it the way it is.
JACKSON: I think it should be supported, and I think men need to change their mind about what constitutes beauty.
SMERCONISH: Thank you, congressman. We've got to roll. Hey, it's almost time for our "Flash Round," but first, Candy Crowley wants to tell us what she's planning for "INSIDE POLITICS" today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired September 20, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Michael Smerconish, with the pleasure of filling in for Arthel Neville.
It's "Free-For-All Friday" and we have a really special show planned. Instead of having our usual compliment of guests for "Free- For-All Friday," meaning four talk show hosts, today, four members of Congress will join us on "Free-For-All Friday." And we have got a dynamite lineup of issues that we are going to get into today.
First, we welcome Illinois Democratic Representative Jesse Jackson Jr.; Arizona Republican Congressman J.D. Hayworth; Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence; and Colorado Democrat Representative Diana DeGette.
Welcome all, members of Congress.
Hey, we have a lot to cover today. And we'll start with the resolution on Iraq, some tough language from President Bush, and what Congress wants to hear before committing to a plan of action. And then stay tuned. Some sports fans try to turn baseball into a contact sport. Also: Somebody is comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler. And we'll tell you who.
We'll get to those subjects in just a moment, but first Iraq: The members of Congress no doubt are familiar with some language that has been proposed by the Bush administration with regard to our military action in Iraq. Let me show it to you. The president wants congressional approval to use "all means he determines to be necessary, including force."
My question -- and I'll start with Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. -- if today you had to vote on the language that I have just shown you, would you be supportive of the Bush administration?
REP. JESSE JACKSON (D), ILLINOIS: Well, based upon the language I saw yesterday, Michael, I would not be supportive, in part because the kind of force that the president seeks under this resolution is open-ended. It does not lay out the goal.
If the goal is to eliminate weapons of mass destruction, if the goal is to eliminate an imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction being used upon our interests abroad or interests here at home, the president already has the power, as commander in chief, to act immediately for 60 days if in fact there is an imminent danger, a clear and present one, facing the people of our country.
The problem here, I believe, however, is that the president is seeking a regime change. And to give the president of the United States, under this resolution, the power to have an unlimited access to the United States military in Iraq should be troubling for all Americans.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Jackson, if it's a terroristic regime, if it's a regime that sponsors terrorism and that threatens the sanctity and security of the United States, then why not support W., if that's his goal?
JACKSON: You know, Michael, we need more than congressional authority. We need moral authority.
We must go in under the appropriate U.N. resolutions, after having built an international consensus, which is what President Bush's father did. But he must also go in with the authority of the American people. The American people must be prepared for a long and a protracted struggle. Our goal should be containment. And if in fact there is an imminent threat to the people of the United States, the president already has that power as commander in chief.
SMERCONISH: Let me go across the aisle and welcome Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
Congressman, what do you say, sir, about the proposed language in the resolution?
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Well, Michael, first of all, I believe it is essentially a reaffirmation of what we said in the wake of the horrible attacks of September 11 of one year ago, where we authorized our commander in chief to take whatever steps necessary.
Now, you'll recall, just a few weeks ago, many of us said, "Mr. President, as we contemplate expanding the war on terror to deal with Iraq, it would be good for you to return to the Congress of the United States." And I guess the bottom line, after listening to my friend Jesse, is this point for members of Congress and for the American people to remember.
We take our oaths of office to the Constitution of the United States, not to the charter of the United Nations. And our commander in chief told us in his State of the Union message that this war on terror would take many forms and that we would reserve the right to act preemptively.
I believe Saddam Hussein represents a clear and present danger to the United States. And I believe it is in our national interest and in the protection of our people to move forward accordingly with this resolution.
Oh, one other note Michael.
SMERCONISH: Sure.
HAYWORTH: Believe me. Understand this. It is a collaborative effort. You will see members of Congress in the House and Senate change some of the language, I believe. But your question was today, would I support this language? And my answer to you, sir, is, yes, I would.
SMERCONISH: All right, I've got a deadlock so far. That's the beauty of TALKBACK LIVE today.
Congressman Pence, what say you, sir? Are you going to break this logjam?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, I'm probably not, although I want to grant Jesse a terrifically important point that he raises here: that what we see in the language of this resolution, Michael, doesn't really seem to reflect what some in the White House and even the president has said, namely that the objective here is nothing short of regime change.
I actually went to the House floor this week, Michael, and suggested rather strongly that, if our objective is in fact to remove the military power and the governmental power of Saddam Hussein -- which is a move that I would support -- that, to do so, it may be appropriate for Congress to debate even stronger than a resolution on the use of force. Perhaps we should debate a declaration of war.
When we were attacked by Spain in Havana Harbor when the USS Maine was sunk in 1898, we didn't pass a resolution on the use of force, Michael. We declared war, the same after Pearl Harbor. I at least want to respect Jesse's call here for clarity, for moral clarity and for constitutional clarity.
SMERCONISH: Well, can I put you down as a yea vote on the resolution language that we've shown you to start the program?
PENCE: Well, I'm going to support the use of force. But, like J.D. just said, I think it's important we answer to the Constitution, that we answer to history. And I think Congress ought to at least debate what should be the proper form of the resolution, even if that means declaring war.
SMERCONISH: All right, I think it's two to one. I think it's a 2-1 vote.
Let me go to Congresswoman DeGette.
How do you see this? How would you vote if that were the proposed language of the resolution and today you had to respond to the bell and cast a ballot?
REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Well, first of all, it's DeGette, just to let you know.
And let me say, I, like Jesse, am very, very troubled by the language of this resolution. Not only does it let the president do anything it wants, it lets him do anything he wants in the entire region. So it's not just limited to Iraq. And, as Jesse says, if the president believes we are under an imminent threat by Iraq, come tell Congress.
Don't just ask Congress to be a rubber stamp for what you want to do, because, if we don't act with the international community, if we don't act with a knowledgeable Congress, and, as Jesse says, with the consent of the American people, we are going to have a whole lot of American men and women coming back in body bags. And we don't have a clarity of purpose there. The other thing...
SMERCONISH: All right, Congresswoman DeGette, thank you.
Let me include Rima from Ohio, who is part of the TALKBACK LIVE audience here.
Welcome to the program. And fire off your question.
RIMA: Well, it's a comment first.
I really fear the language that was used by the president yesterday. And I also fear the language that is used by the two congressmen here on the panel today.
SMERCONISH: Tell me why, Rima. What about it troubles you?
RIMA: It troubles me because this is a decision that is not only going to impact America. This is a decision that impacts the rest of the world. And there is a mind-set sometimes in America -- I'm from another country and came here. But the mind-set is that only Americans are important. You hear people being wounded in other countries, but it's how many Americans that are being wounded.
SMERCONISH: Well, but how about the mind-set that says we have got to lead, because no one else is going to pick up the mantle and wage war against terrorists? If we don't do it, nobody else is going to.
RIMA: But other countries are trying to. And their efforts at peace are being diminished by the talk of war.
SMERCONISH: Let me include Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr.
Go ahead, sir.
JACKSON: Michael?
SMERCONISH: Yes, sir.
JACKSON: Michael, if China decides it wants a regime change in Taiwan and wants to go at it alone, the international community would be outraged by this. If India decided it wanted a regime change in Pakistan, the rest of the world would be outraged about this.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: That's why we must not only have the congressional authority. We must have the moral authority.
SMERCONISH: But, respectfully, sir, I don't think...
JACKSON: And the president should follow his father's advice and build an international consensus.
SMERCONISH: But I don't think that anybody is saying that Taiwan threatens the future of the free world. Nobody is talking about Taiwan having a nuclear arsenal that can overthrow...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Am I wrong, J.D. Hayworth?
HAYWORTH: No, you are not, Michael.
And here's the other distinction. And I think it's something that we have to make clear. And I thank Rima for her point. Again let me make this point. It's not that we are blissfully unconcerned with the rest of the world. But as a United States representative, my oath of office is to the United States Constitution and to the people of the United States and to act in our interest to protect our people and to protect our country, first and foremost. It doesn't mean we give short shrift to the rest of the world.
But there's another point here that I think we have to make. And it is a key distinction. Secretary of State Powell made it in hearings just yesterday, I believe. What we are talking about in terms of Iraq and regime change is liberation from a tyrant. And certainly we have not reached the point of moral relativism in our world where we will accept the glib analogy that one man's tyrant is another man's champion.
We have seen clearly -- and the president laid out the case before the United Nations last week -- Saddam Hussein has thumbed his nose at the same international community that our friend from Ohio just mentioned.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: I have got to call time out. We have got a great panel: four members of Congress on TALKBACK LIVE.
We have got to move on, but we want to hear from you. Call us at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.com.
Stay right there. We are coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Today on TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The German justice minister likened President Bush's actions to those of Adolf Hitler.
HERTA DAEUBLER-GMELIN, GERMAN JUSTICE MINISTER (through translator): Unfortunately, there was no tape recording being made of this conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: A slip of the tongue or was something lost in the translation? What does it sound like to you?
TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: Our top priority is to fight the war against terrorism. I'm concerned that this administration is shifting gears to this Iraq issue, which is very important, but dropping the ball on terrorism. And that's exactly the danger of this kind of thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday." I'm Michael Smerconish. And, today, we're simulcasting again on my radio show, The Big Talker 1210, back in Philadelphia.
The subject continues to be Iraq. We've just heard words from Senator Feingold, who has some concerns about our ability to juggle responsibilities against terrorism and Iraq at the same time.
Congressman Pence, do you share that concern?
PENCE: I don't share that concern, Michael.
And this is the point that I think the administration has to do a better job making, as Rima in your audience just suggested. This administration has to make the case -- which can be made, at least, Michael, through circumstantial evidence -- that there are direct ties of support between the regime in Baghdad and not only al Qaeda, but also the organization of now the late Abu Nidal, who was assassinated in his home in Baghdad in August.
There is simply no question that challenging the regime in Baghdad is part of the war on terrorism.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Pence, I agree with you.
But let me ask you this question, sir: why not a full-scale presentation of the evidence? Show me the blowups. Show me the affidavits. Give me all the data. Make the case, like Adlai Stevenson made in the U.N. at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Congressman, why haven't we seen that so far?
PENCE: It actually is a bit of a mystery to me. And, candidly, as all of us here know, the president is very much intending to come to Capitol Hill at some point in the coming weeks and months, certainly before the initiation of hostilities. SMERCONISH: I would love to see him do that.
PENCE: And at that time, I think he's going to connect the dots. The American people and the world community is going to see that the safety of peace-loving people in the world is dependent on the elimination of the regime of Saddam Hussein.
SMERCONISH: I happen to agree with you.
Congresswoman DeGette, I want to show you, if I may, ma'am, an e- mail that we received during the break.
Can we put that up on the screen? And I'm going to ask the congresswoman to respond. "I think we should pay attention to Rumsfeld and go into Iraq and kick some butt." That's a sentiment I'm hearing all over.
DEGETTE: Well, it's not a sentiment I'm hearing in my district.
And I agree with you. If the president really thinks that Iraq is an imminent threat to us, a threat that would require us to go in with force, why doesn't he come to Congress and show that to us? We have been in briefings for the last week and we have seen no evidence of imminent danger.
At the same time, the administration has increased the threat of terrorism to high in this country. Al Qaeda is still out there. We are still trying to fight terrorism. Why on earth should we be now shifting our focus, like Senator Feingold says, and attacking Iraq? If Iraq is an imminent threat, Mr. President, come, show Congress. We will all support dealing with that, because, obviously, it's a threat to our security.
SMERCONISH: Hang on. If I could just hold the members of Congress for a moment, my friend Jeff here is in from California.
Hey, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, sir.
JEFF: Thanks. Nice to be here.
I think the congresswoman is somewhat naive if she thinks that we don't have enough evidence that Saddam Hussein is planning a terrorist attack, and part of the -- all of what's gone on since 9/11 and more.
SMERCONISH: You believe your president, sir. When George W. Bush tells you this is something we have got to do, you trust him and you believe him.
JEFF: Well, it's not...
DEGETTE: Do you know something, Jeff?
JEFF: Well, it's not so much that I believe him. It's that I believe that the evidence -- and it's not just George W. Bush. I have a lot of respect for Colin Powell, for Condoleezza Rice.
SMERCONISH: Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld.
JEFF: And Secretary Rumsfeld. I have a lot of respect for the people that are there. And I think we made a mistake in not taking Saddam out during Desert Storm.
SMERCONISH: Let me give Congresswoman DeGette a very quick response opportunity, because it was directed toward you, Congresswoman. Please.
DEGETTE: Well, I think that President Bush's father may have made a mistake that I think the president is trying to rectify a little bit.
But Congress hasn't been given any evidence that shows that Iraq is an imminent threat to us right now. And I'll tell you who is. Al Qaeda is an imminent threat. And we need to go after them. And if they show us that Iraq is a threat, we should go in there, too. That's just practical.
SMERCONISH: J.D., we've only got a half-a-minute.
Can we do both? Can we go after al Qaeda and go after -- I call him Saddam Hussein? Can we do both at the same time?
HAYWORTH: Of course we can.
These goals are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, remnants of al Qaeda are headquartered in Iraq. We have had reports of contacts between those who attacked us September 11 of last year and Iraqi intelligence. And we also have word, based on Saddam's exiled bomb- maker, that if Saddam is able to get fissionable materials and enriched uranium from the black market in Germany and Brazil, it is the belief of the exiled bomb-maker of Saddam that Iraq could have a nuclear bomb by Christmas.
SMERCONISH: All right, I have got to declare Congress in recess on TALKBACK LIVE.
The German justice minister allegedly compares President Bush to Adolf Hitler? What's up with that?
You can weigh in on this right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: All right, welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
Hey, Germany's justice minister has set off a furor over a statement she allegedly made comparing President Bush's stance on Iraq to tactics used by Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler. A German newspaper quoted her as saying: "Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler also used." She says her remarks were taken out of context.
Let me ask Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. Sir, to the extent that she was accurately quoted, would you condemn that statement?
JACKSON: Of course I would. That's outrageous. To compare the president of the United States to Adolf Hitler, it's absurd. It's ridiculous. That is not the context of post-9/11 America, where the anxiety of the American people is overwhelmed by terrorism. So the context of the statement is ludicrous. It's ridiculous. And the analogy, quite frankly, is horrific.
But the reality is also this. And I must separate those comments from what the facts are in our own electoral context. And that is this. President Kennedy said that we as a nation, in order to protect our freedom, are prepared -- just like J.D. Hayworth said -- to bear any burden or to pay any price to protect our freedom.
I believe genuinely that the president of the United States is interested and determined to do just that. So, he must come before the American people to get the moral authority, not just the Congress, make the case that we must bear any burden, pay any price, including raise taxes if necessary to pay the price of freedom to ensure that terrorism is contained in Iraq and/or that we remove Saddam Hussein.
We cannot continue to allow the idea of war and the talk of war to move forward without the moral authority, in addition to congressional authority.
SMERCONISH: Let me ask Congressman J.D. Hayworth.
Congressman, does the president even need to come to the Congress? Isn't this all window dressing? Can't he just go about whatever he needs to do taking out Saddam Hussein?
HAYWORTH: Well, Michael, as my friend Jesse mentioned at the outset of the broadcast, of course, under the War Powers Act, the president could take that action.
But you'll recall -- and this one of the great things about our constitutional republic, and, quite candidly, the exercise we are engaged in right now. Different ideas, advice comes in. The Constitution plays a major role, of course. And in a free society, the president feels it's important to come and make the case. That's why you see a parade of officials for the administration coming to Capitol Hill for both public briefings and classified briefings for members of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Hang on, I have got one of your constituents here, Congressman. Jill is from Arizona and joining us at TALKBACK LIVE.
Hi, Jill.
JILL: Hello.
I think what's unfortunate is that we are missing the crucial piece of this quote. And it wasn't about the comparison to Hitler. It was about that, as we focus our attention on Iraq, that both the president and our legislators are able to be successfully diverted from social issues, like the fact that Arizona is having one of the biggest budget deficits ever, and not because of 9/11 and not because of Iraq, but because of local problems that our legislatures are not concentrating on now.
SMERCONISH: Go ahead, J.D. You respond to Jill, if you would, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Sure. And I'm glad to see my friend from Flagstaff there in Atlanta today. The president, as a matter of fact...
(APPLAUSE).
SMERCONISH: You better hope she votes down here, I think, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Well, the irony is, they have realigned the district. So I have Flagstaff now. But with the realignment of districts, I don't have Flagstaff any longer.
But I can tell her this. The president of the United States will be visiting Flagstaff later this month. And he will take a look first-hand at public housing programs, at many social needs. And I think it's important to remember, as you point out, of course you don't make these decisions mutually exclusive of one or the other.
SMERCONISH: Got to prioritize.
Hey, I've got to cut you short. We are taking another recess. We'll let everybody get in on this in a moment.
Up next: fanatics. Take a look at this attack on a Kansas City Royals coach. Are sports fans getting out of control?
We'll be right back to TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-for-all Friday," a congressional session. I'm Michael Smerconish in for Arthel Neville.
All right, a lot of people saw this fight on television. A man and his 15-year-old son rushed the field at Comiskey Park during a White Sox-Royals game, and jumped Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa. Gamboa says he doesn't know why he was attacked and beaten. Look at that footage.
Earlier this week...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM GAMBOA, ROYALS FIRST BASE COACH: I was shocked, because it came from behind. And to tell you the truth, I didn't have any clue what had happened. I just felt like I had gotten blind-sided from behind. I had no idea by who, because I knew we weren't have having a problem with the other team. And, you know, when I rolled over and saw that there were two of them, I tried to kick one guy to keep him abreast, and then the other guy kind of smoked me on the side here. And then fortunately for me, by that time, our team got on the field to -- you know, to protect me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMERCONISH: We hope they used a rubber hose on that guy, at least I do.
Earlier this week, police had to use pepper spray to break up a fight at FedEx Field during the Eagles-Redskins football game. The spray even got onto the field, making some of the players sick.
Congressman Pence, what's the explanation for this? What's going on?
PENCE: Well, the explanation is probably extreme inebriation and probably the worst example of fatherhood that we will see in this decade.
(APPLAUSE)
I was brokenhearted for the 15-year-old boy, Michael, that would be disserved by his father in this way and now face criminal charges. But may be the silver lining is a bit of a wake-up call. Thank god, they had no intent other than complaining about a call, and maybe it will result in some more common sense security for our players and, frankly, the spectators at major sporting events.
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman DeGette, has the time come to say, no beer at baseball, no beer at -- no beer at any of these sporting events?
DEGETTE: Well, I think that they could limit the beer certainly, as it goes along. I have season tickets both to the Broncos and the Rockies, and they limit the beer that you have. But really, isn't the responsibility a parent's responsibility to say, you know, I'm not going to drink too much, and furthermore, I'm not going to let my kid go beat -- and I'm not going to give the bad example to my kid?
So, I really think parents need to take a lot more responsibility in our society, and we need to teach our kids good values.
SMERCONISH: Agreed. Steven is on a phone call for us on TALKBACK LIVE. He, Steven, how are you?
STEVEN: I'm fine. I'm just totally shocked at this footage. I am a certified football and baseball coach through the National Youth Sports Coaches Association, and this is so what we are not -- we don't want to teach our kids to do something like this. We are trying to teach them the fundamentals in how to play the game. This is exactly what we are outraged totally about. I mean, this is ridiculous to go to an America's past-time game and have something like this happen. I just hope that, like you say, the parents need to have a better role in raising their kids correctly.
SMERCONISH: Steven, thank you for the call. We appreciate it.
Fate (ph) joins from us Maryland. You were at that Eagles game?
FATE (ph): Yes, I was.
SMERCONISH: What went down there?
FATE (ph): Well, basically, I think what happens is, fans get a lot of beer in their system, and I think nowadays, they're trying to just outdo each other. What happened was, they were trying to control the crowd, and the pepper spray from the police got into the actual players' area and so forth.
SMERCONISH: I heard it was the Skins fans, not the Eagles fans -- not the guys from my neck of the woods.
FATE (ph): Well, it depends on who is writing the paper.
SMERCONISH: All right, Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr, what say you, sir, about this scandal in sports?
JACKSON: Well, we're living in a violence-charged environment from sports, but also from the very top of our administration. We need to take a deep breath. We need to obviously get back to some basic values and try and find alternative dispute resolutions. And so, what we saw yesterday in Chicago was horrific. And I want to associate myself with what my friend from Indiana, Diana DeGette, has said about this, but let me also say if there's a silver lining -- my silver lining is just a little bit different -- we take baseball very seriously here in Chicago.
SMERCONISH: J.D. Hayworth, you've got some experience in these matters as a former announcer. Tell me what you think about this.
HAYWORTH: Well, the scene was both bizarre and disgusting, and it has no place in civilized society. Now here's the distinction I make, and I hope I didn't misunderstand my friend, Jesse. , did I hear you say that this not only happened last night at Comiskey, but involves also levels of the administration? What was...
JACKSON: No, what I said was we live in a violence-charged environment where almost all solutions result in some violent act, some desire to go to war, and we are not choosing peaceful resolutions to problems. That's why we need to take a deep breath. I am very concerned about that.
HAYWORTH: Well, sir, thank you for a chance to clarify it. Let me draw this distinction.
JACKSON: Thank you for the opportunity.
HAYWORTH: I think we all disagree with wanton violence and attacking people unaware, and certainly we have had this magnified to the 1,000th power with what happened to people that worked in New York and Washington one year ago.
But here is the distinction. At an athletic event, rules of personal conduct and civility apply. When it comes to protecting American people, who are law-abiding, and our American nation, sadly sometimes we must reserve the ability to have a deterrent through the use of -- dare I say it -- military force and violence. So, let's make that clear as well.
JACKSON: Well, J.D....
HAYWORTH: And let's also understand that we need to protect our people and that it is all set up in the context. So, I disagree with the notion that somehow the administration mirrors what happened last night at Comiskey Park.
SMERCONISH: Go ahead, Jesse -- real quick.
JACKSON: J.D., allowing inspectors back into Iraq, ensuring that those inspectors go back in and have unfettered access to all of the country, is part of a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Rushing to go a congressional resolution and ignoring the inspectors is choosing war over the opportunity and the alternative of peace.
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HAYWORTH: And spending a year waiting to go see that happen also accords (ph) an attack worse than what we saw last September 11.
SMERCONISH: Hey, I've got to call a recess again.
JACKSON: Michael...
SMERCONISH: It's a special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. We started out talking baseball. We're back to the U.N.-Iraq issue.
Up next, the representatives can tell us where they think women belong. We are going to play Augusta National right after this.
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SMERCONISH: Today on TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-for-all Friday," four members of Congress talking about sex, interns and rock 'n' roll. The "Flash Round" is coming up, so get off that couch and call me at 1- 800-310-4cnn, or e-mail talkback@cnn.com.
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DEGETTE: ... to play golf. Why wouldn't Augusta want to let women in? I mean, there's more and more of them who will pay dues to the club. And I agree with Jesse. I don't -- we don't have to tell them to take women, but it would be in their best interest.
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman DeGette, you mentioned...
DEGETTE: I'd also like to note, you know, the first woman ever has just qualified to play in the PGA tournament.
SMERCONISH: And they're a number...
DEGETTE: Is Augusta going to let her play?
SMERCONISH: There are a number of feminists who don't want her to play in the tournament, because she'll have to tee off from the men's tees, and the course is going to be 1,000 yards longer than what she is...
DEGETTE: She'll make her own decision whether she wants to play.
SMERCONISH: Do you think she should play?
DEGETTE: I think she should make that decision. If she wants to play, good for her.
SMERCONISH: What's wrong with...
DEGETTE: Is Augusta going to let her do it?
SMERCONISH: Congresswoman, we are not talking about a restaurant. We are not talking about a hotel. It's not a place of public accommodation. If guys want to hang out with guys at a golf club or at a poker game, what's wrong with that?
DEGETTE: Well, there's nothing wrong with a private club just having guys or women. What a lot of us have an issue with is, now a major national golf tournament will be played there, and I think it makes a statement if the major networks don't advertise and so on. I think that it says we believe that people should have equality in playing golf.
SMERCONISH: Lets me get Congressman Pence in on the Augusta national action. What say you, sir?
PENCE: Well, Michael, I think I am the worst golfer in Congress, which is saying a lot. And let me say, I believe in the freedom of association, which includes the freedom to be silly in this country. There's just no question that the Masters is an important institution in America. Augusta is a legendary course. There are dozens of women's tournament at that golf course every year. There's a couple of hundred of old men who run Augusta and are part of the membership there should simply see the light of day and restore the luster of this great institution so we can move on and get to the kind of bad golf that I play.
SMERCONISH: Hey, J.D. Hayworth, should they give in, or should they fight the fight?
HAYWORTH: Well, first of all, Michael, let me point out that Maricopa County, Arizona has more golf courses than anywhere else in America. And if you want to substitute the magnolias of Augusta for the Surwaro (ph) of our desert, we welcome all golfers here. It helps our economy.
SMERCONISH: Hey, we've got Jill from Arizona. She's back in your corner now that she has heard you say that. All right, listen...
HAYWORTH: But she knows how good the courses are, and Forest Highlands up in Flagstaff, too.
SMERCONISH: All right, thank you, Congressman.
Hey, do we need to be seeing more of Miss America, when TALKBACK LIVE continues.
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SMERCONISH: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Michael Smerconish in for Arthel Neville.
Hey, this Saturday night up in Atlantic City, they're going to crown another Miss America, but here's the problem. The ratings keep going down for the whole program as they get away from bathing suits and, well, head more toward the books. It seems like brains are more important than -- shall I say -- one's appearance?
So, the question is, is it time for the Miss America Pageant to head back in the direction of a beauty contest as opposed to the scholarship program that it has become?
Now, I think I know what Congresswoman DeGette is going to say, but I'm going to ask her to begin with anyway.
DEGETTE: I think that the sponsors at least always claim the Miss America contest was for scholarships anyway. And I also don't think anybody would say that it's no longer a beauty contest. But let me tell you something. I became friends with a Miss America a couple of years ago. The Miss America who we had, she took diabetes issues on as her cause. And I'm the co-chair of the Diabetes Caucus in Congress. She came to Congress to lobby for more funding for diabetes research. And you know what? She was the most effective lobbyist we ever had for diabetes. All of the congressmen were eating out of her hand.
So, as far as I'm concerned, if we can get great emissaries like that out of the Miss America contest, who can help the millions of people with diabetes -- it was unbelievable. I had Miss America over to the members' dining room, and the male members of Congress would line up to tell her...
SMERCONISH: Now, there's a surprise.
DEGETTE: ... how much in appropriations they wanted to give.
SMERCONISH: Now, there's a surprise.
DEGETTE: But you know what they wanted to tell her was how much they were going to give for diabetes research. So, I think Miss America, while she's beautiful, she can actually make a big difference to societies.
SMERCONISH: Let me -- thank you, Congresswoman. Let me talk to my friend, J.D., for a minute. J.D., if you and I could just talk mono-a-mono (ph) for a moment. Do we need to head more back, you know, in the direction of the bathing suits and away from the books?
HAYWORTH: Well, when you bring up this topic, Michael, I'm reminded that two Arizonans have worn the crown of Miss America. And the one I remember most, 1965, Vonda Kaye Van Dyke (ph), and I've got to tell you in all sincerity, I don't remember the swimsuit competition, but her talent. She was a ventriloquist, and I thought that was just great, given that particular time in my life being in the second grade.
So, I think it's a balance of things, of course, but...
SMERCONISH: You've got a constituent or a program for every subject here this afternoon.
HAYWORTH: Well...
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He always does, Michael.
HAYWORTH: Remember, we take care of our states here, Michael.
SMERCONISH: Congressman Pence, what do you think about this?
PENCE: I think this is a great topic, and let me go on the record and say on national television, Michael, that my wife, Karen, having not won the Miss America contest was robbed in her youth. She's a beautiful and talented woman. But I think the tasteful display of feminine beauty is a great tradition in America and it ought to be a part of this great country.
SMERCONISH: Real quickly, Congressman Jackson, let me just slide him in.
PENCE: What I object to is the political correctness, Michael. That's the problem.
SMERCONISH: Oh, I agree with you. Congressman Jackson, what do you say, sir?
JACKSON: I don't think that there's anything wrong with the Miss America Pageant. I think it's a great pageant, and today's women are beginning to reflect the desires of today's women, and they're not just beauty queens in terms of external beauty, but they're also beautiful internally. And so, I think that the pageant should be supported...
SMERCONISH: You say leave it the way it is.
JACKSON: I think it should be supported, and I think men need to change their mind about what constitutes beauty.
SMERCONISH: Thank you, congressman. We've got to roll. Hey, it's almost time for our "Flash Round," but first, Candy Crowley wants to tell us what she's planning for "INSIDE POLITICS" today.
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