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Videotaped Mom Faces Child Abuse Arraignment
Aired September 23, 2002 - 10:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: But up first this hour, a court appearance for Madelyne Gorman Toogood, the mother videotaped slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. She'll be arranged on felony child battery charges.
And our national correspondent Gary Tuchman has been covering this story. As a matter of fact, was among the first to sit down and talk with Toogood. He joins us now with the very latest.
Good morning -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Leon, good morning to you.
We have seen her on the infamous videotape for days now, but today we will see Madelyne Toogood in a court of law for the very first time since that happened. She will be arraigned. The scheduled arraignment time here in this courthouse in South Bend, Indiana is 1:30 local time. However, her attorney is saying that they have a separate hearing to deal with about the 4-year-old little daughter, Martha, in a separate building at the same time. So he is currently trying to push the time up.
But when the arraignment starts, Madelyne Toogood will plead not guilty, but that's just a technicality. And it's relevant because she has said to us and now said to others and her attorneys also said to us that she believes she's guilty of the crime she's charged with. But if you say you're guilty in the arraignment, you erase any leverage you have with the possibility of negotiations or plea- bargaining. So they will plead not guilty.
Now we sat down with her last night. The first thing you notice about this 25-year-old mother is her hair is completely dark, a very different color than the light hair we've seen in the videotape. And she's blunt about it. She says she changed her hair color before she turned herself in because she did not want people recognizing her as she traveled to Maryland and New Jersey with her family. She says she actually brought her 4-year-old daughter to a doctor in New Jersey to get her checked out there. She says she is ashamed. She says she's sorry, but she says she's never battered her children before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: Twenty-five seconds of my life, it was an uncalled for 25 seconds. And I perhaps -- apologize for it over and over again and...
TUCHMAN: What'd you say to Martha though?
TOOGOOD: Oh well as soon as I pulled away -- she had pigtails in her hair. She told me that her -- my pigtail was -- her pigtail was messed up. And I said, Martha, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. Sorry, Martha, I shouldn't have pulled your pigtails. I shouldn't have did that. And I fixed her pigtails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: We should tell you that prosecutors said repeatedly before she turned herself in on Saturday that they believe that this videotape is an indication that this woman has done something like this before, that it's very unlikely that the very first time she ever battered her children should be caught on videotape. They are very suspicious of that claim.
We should tell you that 4-year-old Martha is in foster care right now. She is in good medical condition, but we're expecting another medical report to come out later today. We should also tell you that the 25-year-old mother will get her first shot at visitation tomorrow. Under the terms of the agreement with the foster care, she will be allowed a daily visitation.
Leon, back to you.
HARRIS: All right. Thanks, Gary, we'll get back to you in just a bit and then we're going to let you go back and find out what's happening inside that courtroom. We'll get -- check back with you later on today.
Now let's get a closer look at all the legal and the custodial issues at play in this story. And joining us to shed some light on that is our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Good Monday morning to you, Jeff, good to see you again.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi -- Leon.
HARRIS: All right, let's first start off talking about how you see this case shaping up legally here.
TOOBIN: Well there are really sort of two very separate, although pretty related, issues. One is the criminal case against her, the battery case. You know what will happen, will the -- will there be a guilty plea, will there be jail time, that is -- that is one issue.
The other issue is custody, who gets to keep this child? The -- Ms. Toogood wants to keep -- wants to keep custody, or at least she wants her family members to have custody. It's worth remembering that her sister, you can see her there in the video right there, she was in the car and she has been arrested as well. So I think the prosecution is going to probably be unlikely to turn over custody to anyone who was remotely involved in this case.
So, as Gary reported, there are two proceedings underway, one relating to custody, one relating to the criminal case, both will have to be resolved.
HARRIS: Would you look at signs like that, like what you just mentioned there, about the charges that are being leveled and whom they are being leveled at as an indicator that the prosecutors in this case are going to look for the worse possible case they can make here and basically throw the book at her?
TOOBIN: I think that's very likely. Certainly we've heard the prosecutors in public taking a very hard line and I don't think, you know, we can pretend that all this publicity is irrelevant either. You know we have seen this video, all of us, many, many times. There's a tremendous degree of public outrage. This is not a sympathetic defendant at all. Remember she took off afterwards. She didn't, you know, express remorse and say, you know, I need to get help. She took off. She was, you know, half way across the country, as I recall, when...
HARRIS: Yes.
TOOBIN: ... she agreed to turn herself in. She changed her hair color, which she can say she did because she didn't want to be bothered, but that could also be claimed by the prosecution as a way of just escaping culpability all together.
HARRIS: Yes, I'm glad you touched on those. I was going to bring those up to you.
What do you make then of her defense counsel's attempt here to try to make her a more sympathetic character? I mean that's what we -- those of us who are lay people have been assuming, as we've watched her being presented in the press quite a bit this morning, pretty much on every network this morning, and also on our network here over the weekend, what do you make of that campaign?
TOOBIN: Well, I think it's a risk strategy, but I think it's probably -- it's probably worthwhile because, you know at this point, the only image the public has of her is that horrible videotape. Now she can be portrayed -- she is expressing remorse, she is acknowledging her behavior, she is saying very dramatically that she loves her daughter. But you know that may be a little late for the prosecutors -- for the prosecutors hope.
And also, it's worth remembering having now acknowledged on all these interviews that she in fact did hit her child, that means that, you know, the only real legal issue here is what she pleads guilty to. It's not -- there will -- there will be no trial here. She can't acknowledge -- she can't admit that -- admit on television that she did it and then go back in court and say I'm not guilty.
HARRIS: In the arraignment say no, I'm sorry, do over. I didn't mean to say that exactly on...
TOOBIN: Well she may actually at the arraignment say not guilty just to give herself some time to plea bargain, but certainly, I mean at least based on everything I've seen, there will not be a trial in this case. HARRIS: All right. Well if you're -- if you're a prosecutor, what -- how would you look at the fact that she took her daughter to a doctor somewhere in New Jersey?
TOOBIN: You know it's -- I -- you can look at it two ways, you can say well she's hiding. She's went as far away as possible, but at least she did get her doctor medical -- she did get her daughter medical attention.
Leon, there's another sort of weird sub-issue here I'd like to just get into a little bit.
HARRIS: Yes.
TOOBIN: You know this group that she is -- that she is apparently part of, The Irish -- The Irish Travelers, it's a very interesting part of this story, and it's important to tell this part of the story in a way that doesn't sort of play on unfortunate stereotypes. But Irish Travelers are a group somewhat like gypsies who travel around the country, don't often put their kids in school, don't have a permanent address. They have frequently been accused of participating in sort of scams of -- involving mobile homes. They also, you know, have suffered unfair discrimination. That -- it will be interesting to see how that plays out because they don't really have any roots in this Indiana community where they're being prosecuted. That also could really hurt them as this case unfolds.
HARRIS: That's a very interesting angle. Thanks, Jeffrey, for bringing that up.
We got to move on right now, but we're going to get back to the story later on. Our Jeffrey -- sorry, Gary Tuchman is standing by there at the courthouse. We'll have to see how that -- if that does issue -- if that issue, rather, does come up later on.
Jeffrey Toobin in New York, thank you very much. Appreciate it
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 23, 2002 - 10:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: But up first this hour, a court appearance for Madelyne Gorman Toogood, the mother videotaped slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. She'll be arranged on felony child battery charges.
And our national correspondent Gary Tuchman has been covering this story. As a matter of fact, was among the first to sit down and talk with Toogood. He joins us now with the very latest.
Good morning -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Leon, good morning to you.
We have seen her on the infamous videotape for days now, but today we will see Madelyne Toogood in a court of law for the very first time since that happened. She will be arraigned. The scheduled arraignment time here in this courthouse in South Bend, Indiana is 1:30 local time. However, her attorney is saying that they have a separate hearing to deal with about the 4-year-old little daughter, Martha, in a separate building at the same time. So he is currently trying to push the time up.
But when the arraignment starts, Madelyne Toogood will plead not guilty, but that's just a technicality. And it's relevant because she has said to us and now said to others and her attorneys also said to us that she believes she's guilty of the crime she's charged with. But if you say you're guilty in the arraignment, you erase any leverage you have with the possibility of negotiations or plea- bargaining. So they will plead not guilty.
Now we sat down with her last night. The first thing you notice about this 25-year-old mother is her hair is completely dark, a very different color than the light hair we've seen in the videotape. And she's blunt about it. She says she changed her hair color before she turned herself in because she did not want people recognizing her as she traveled to Maryland and New Jersey with her family. She says she actually brought her 4-year-old daughter to a doctor in New Jersey to get her checked out there. She says she is ashamed. She says she's sorry, but she says she's never battered her children before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: Twenty-five seconds of my life, it was an uncalled for 25 seconds. And I perhaps -- apologize for it over and over again and...
TUCHMAN: What'd you say to Martha though?
TOOGOOD: Oh well as soon as I pulled away -- she had pigtails in her hair. She told me that her -- my pigtail was -- her pigtail was messed up. And I said, Martha, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. Sorry, Martha, I shouldn't have pulled your pigtails. I shouldn't have did that. And I fixed her pigtails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: We should tell you that prosecutors said repeatedly before she turned herself in on Saturday that they believe that this videotape is an indication that this woman has done something like this before, that it's very unlikely that the very first time she ever battered her children should be caught on videotape. They are very suspicious of that claim.
We should tell you that 4-year-old Martha is in foster care right now. She is in good medical condition, but we're expecting another medical report to come out later today. We should also tell you that the 25-year-old mother will get her first shot at visitation tomorrow. Under the terms of the agreement with the foster care, she will be allowed a daily visitation.
Leon, back to you.
HARRIS: All right. Thanks, Gary, we'll get back to you in just a bit and then we're going to let you go back and find out what's happening inside that courtroom. We'll get -- check back with you later on today.
Now let's get a closer look at all the legal and the custodial issues at play in this story. And joining us to shed some light on that is our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Good Monday morning to you, Jeff, good to see you again.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi -- Leon.
HARRIS: All right, let's first start off talking about how you see this case shaping up legally here.
TOOBIN: Well there are really sort of two very separate, although pretty related, issues. One is the criminal case against her, the battery case. You know what will happen, will the -- will there be a guilty plea, will there be jail time, that is -- that is one issue.
The other issue is custody, who gets to keep this child? The -- Ms. Toogood wants to keep -- wants to keep custody, or at least she wants her family members to have custody. It's worth remembering that her sister, you can see her there in the video right there, she was in the car and she has been arrested as well. So I think the prosecution is going to probably be unlikely to turn over custody to anyone who was remotely involved in this case.
So, as Gary reported, there are two proceedings underway, one relating to custody, one relating to the criminal case, both will have to be resolved.
HARRIS: Would you look at signs like that, like what you just mentioned there, about the charges that are being leveled and whom they are being leveled at as an indicator that the prosecutors in this case are going to look for the worse possible case they can make here and basically throw the book at her?
TOOBIN: I think that's very likely. Certainly we've heard the prosecutors in public taking a very hard line and I don't think, you know, we can pretend that all this publicity is irrelevant either. You know we have seen this video, all of us, many, many times. There's a tremendous degree of public outrage. This is not a sympathetic defendant at all. Remember she took off afterwards. She didn't, you know, express remorse and say, you know, I need to get help. She took off. She was, you know, half way across the country, as I recall, when...
HARRIS: Yes.
TOOBIN: ... she agreed to turn herself in. She changed her hair color, which she can say she did because she didn't want to be bothered, but that could also be claimed by the prosecution as a way of just escaping culpability all together.
HARRIS: Yes, I'm glad you touched on those. I was going to bring those up to you.
What do you make then of her defense counsel's attempt here to try to make her a more sympathetic character? I mean that's what we -- those of us who are lay people have been assuming, as we've watched her being presented in the press quite a bit this morning, pretty much on every network this morning, and also on our network here over the weekend, what do you make of that campaign?
TOOBIN: Well, I think it's a risk strategy, but I think it's probably -- it's probably worthwhile because, you know at this point, the only image the public has of her is that horrible videotape. Now she can be portrayed -- she is expressing remorse, she is acknowledging her behavior, she is saying very dramatically that she loves her daughter. But you know that may be a little late for the prosecutors -- for the prosecutors hope.
And also, it's worth remembering having now acknowledged on all these interviews that she in fact did hit her child, that means that, you know, the only real legal issue here is what she pleads guilty to. It's not -- there will -- there will be no trial here. She can't acknowledge -- she can't admit that -- admit on television that she did it and then go back in court and say I'm not guilty.
HARRIS: In the arraignment say no, I'm sorry, do over. I didn't mean to say that exactly on...
TOOBIN: Well she may actually at the arraignment say not guilty just to give herself some time to plea bargain, but certainly, I mean at least based on everything I've seen, there will not be a trial in this case. HARRIS: All right. Well if you're -- if you're a prosecutor, what -- how would you look at the fact that she took her daughter to a doctor somewhere in New Jersey?
TOOBIN: You know it's -- I -- you can look at it two ways, you can say well she's hiding. She's went as far away as possible, but at least she did get her doctor medical -- she did get her daughter medical attention.
Leon, there's another sort of weird sub-issue here I'd like to just get into a little bit.
HARRIS: Yes.
TOOBIN: You know this group that she is -- that she is apparently part of, The Irish -- The Irish Travelers, it's a very interesting part of this story, and it's important to tell this part of the story in a way that doesn't sort of play on unfortunate stereotypes. But Irish Travelers are a group somewhat like gypsies who travel around the country, don't often put their kids in school, don't have a permanent address. They have frequently been accused of participating in sort of scams of -- involving mobile homes. They also, you know, have suffered unfair discrimination. That -- it will be interesting to see how that plays out because they don't really have any roots in this Indiana community where they're being prosecuted. That also could really hurt them as this case unfolds.
HARRIS: That's a very interesting angle. Thanks, Jeffrey, for bringing that up.
We got to move on right now, but we're going to get back to the story later on. Our Jeffrey -- sorry, Gary Tuchman is standing by there at the courthouse. We'll have to see how that -- if that does issue -- if that issue, rather, does come up later on.
Jeffrey Toobin in New York, thank you very much. Appreciate it
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
