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CNN Talkback Live

What Should Happen to Madelyne Toogood?; Civil Rights Leaders Upset Over 'Barbershop'

Aired September 23, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN HOST: Oh, we love our audience today. A mighty audience and I love that. And we have some great debate coming your way on TALKBACK LIVE.
Hello everyone, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville.

Last week everyone was looking for Madelyne Toogood. You know, the woman caught on tape in a Kohl's parking lot beating her 4-year- old daughter. About a half hour ago she was in court facing felony battery charges and the little girl is now in foster care. We'll start with what should happen to Madelyne Toogood and then stay tuned and find out why some civil rights leaders are upset about this week's No. 1 movie "Barbershop." That's coming up later.

But first, have you ever had a bad day? Madelyne Toogood says she had one the day the videotape was shot outside of a Kohl's department store in Indiana. But in an exclusive interview with CNN, Ms. Toogood admits it wasn't a reason to hit her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE TOOGOOD, MOTHER ACCUSED OF BEATING CHILD ON TAPE: Martha was just being Martha. She was running, she was getting lost, she was opening everything in the store. She was jumping from the counter to the stroller. You know, that's just a typical day in -- with Martha. I was probably bickering with my sister, another sister, and my husband that day but and -- but no, nothing that would even have anything to do with Martha.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Ms. Toogood was in court just a few minutes ago and she pleaded not guilty, and here to talk about the case are attorney Robert Harris, chief deputy public guardian of Cook County, Illinois. His office represents abused and neglected children and acts as their guardian.

Also, former New York City prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callan is here to talk about this.

PAUL CALLAN, FORMER NEW YORK CITY PROSECUTOR AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi.

COSTELLO: First, before we get to you guys, we're going to go live outside the courtroom in South Bend, Indiana where CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman is standing by. This was a very short court hearing, Gary. What happened?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, lasted for a grand total of two minutes and the judge actually gave her plea for her. He said, You're not guilty. Come back October 7 and you will have a status hearing.

But this is very unusual case is the sense that this young woman, she's 25 years old, has already admitted to us, talking to us, that she committed the crime. She says she did commit battery. So it leaves her lawyer three paths. And he what he told us just a short time ago is what he wants to do is try to get a plea bargain. Maximum penalty of three years for this felony battery charge.

If he can't get a plea bargain, he might plead guilty in court and then ask for the mercy of the court.

If that doesn't work out, the third option, this is his least favorite option, is to actually go to trial. And he does say, the attorney, that if he goes to trial what he might have to do is blow up the videotape and show, Yes, while she did beat her daughter, it's not as bad as most people think.

COSTELLO: What did she tell you, Gary Tuchman? Because I know that you got the exclusive interview with her. How far did she say the alleged abuse went?

TUCHMAN: It lasted 25 seconds, she says. And she claims that she's never done anything like this before and it's certainly up to the viewer to believe whether that's true or not. She says she has slapped her three children's behinds before, but never done this. And she said she went into the store, she was in a Kohl's department store here in northern Indiana, and she says she was having a bad day, that her child was opening up toys and playing hide-and-seek in the store. She had an argument with her sister. She also said while she was in the store, some suspicious security guards opened up a bag she had and when she walked out, she says she just kind of flipped out.

Now, she says that's no excuse. She apologizes profusely. She says she's ashamed. She says she's embarrassed. She says she's humiliated and she says she apologized to her little 4-year-old daughter Martha afterwards and Martha said to her, Mommy, you messed up my pigtails when you pulled them.

COSTELLO: Oh. What exact abuse did she admit to? Just slapping the child once in the forehead and what else?

TUCHMAN: She says she has admitted to slapping the child. She has admitted to shaking the child. I asked her very specifically, It looks like you were punching the child, and she used her hands to show, I wasn't punching the child, I was going like this and grabbing her hair. Now, we have no way of knowing that's true. We couldn't see that. We can actually see her pulling the hair at one point, the ponytail, but claims she didn't punch the child.

COSTELLO: And one last question, quickly, where are the children now? Because this woman has two other little boys, right? TUCHMAN: Right. Her two little boys, who are 5- and 6-years-old are with other family members right now. The court has not yet said whether this 25-year-old mother can spend time with her two older boys. That's not clear at this point. As far as her daughter goes, her daughter is living with a foster family here and that will continue indefinitely. We didn't know how long exactly. The state is not saying, but her attorney just told us a short time ago that he expects it will be at least three months.

COSTELLO: And I want to ask you one more thing before we go, because there's something strange about this case. This family belongs to a group of people called the Irish Travelers. What is that?

TUCHMAN: This is a very unique part of the case. And it's a term that many of you may have heard, many may not. But few people understand what they are. The Irish Travelers is a group of about a few hundred Americans and they are a very insular community, they don't socialize much with other people, and what they do is they move around the country constantly. They go where the work is.

Now, there's a word that many people consider unkind. That word is gypsy. And that's what some people liken the Irish Travelers to. Some of the Irish Travelers, and there are a lot of them here because they're here supporting her, mother and her sisters and her husband. Some of them say it's an OK word, others say it isn't. But what they do is they travel around the country and that concerns people here, the prosecutors, and that's one of the reasons they're concerned about the custody issue, because she doesn't, Madelyne Toogood, have a permanent address.

But I should point out this is important, Carol. This is one of the things Madelyne Toogood says that might have led to this whole thing. When she was in the Kohl's department store she says people were suspicious of her, as they often are, because they can spot the Irish Travelers, out people in stores. And that's why they say she opened her bag -- they opened her bag. And that's why she says the store surveillance camera outside the store was actually shooting her as she walked out because they thought she was suspicious.

She also says though, and this is important, that she feels it's a good thing the camera was shooting it, because it's taught her a lesson and she hopes, she tells me, it teaches other people a lesson, too.

COSTELLO: All right, Gary Tuchman, thank you very much for joining us. Again, you heard this woman, Madelyne Toogood, pleaded not guilty at her arraignment. It's just a technical thing that the court process goes through.

I want to bring in our guests right now. Paul Callan, who is a criminal defense attorney.

We think that she's going to -- or her attorney is going to arrange some sort of plea bargain. What might that be? CALLAN: Well you know, what is remarkable with this attorney is that he's put his client on television, nationally, and had her confess to the crime. I have never seen a defense attorney do that. And he's really taken a lot of options away in terms of trying to get leniency from the court in my view. She's facing potentially three years and I think he's going to get a difficult time -- have a difficult time getting a judge to be particularly lenient with her.

Obviously he's going to be bargaining for a situation where she does minimal time or no time and where she gets her child back.

COSTELLO: How much time should it be? Let me bring Robert Harris in here. He's the chief deputy public guardian for the state of Illinois. Does this woman deserve three years in prison?

ROBERT HARRIS, PUBLIC GUARDIAN ATTORNEY: Well, you know, what she did is a horrible thing, obviously. But I think it's made even more horrible or blown really to a greater scale because of the fact that it was caught on tape and then shown throughout the country. In the scheme of things, what she did in this particular case, is less horrendous than many of the cases that I see.

I see cases involving sex abuse and physical abuse where the parents are never prosecuted, it never even comes up as a question. There's never even a charge or an arrest.

COSTELLO: But should that really matter?

HARRIS: She got caught on tape.

COSTELLO: Should that really matter though? She did get caught on tape, and what she did appears to be really horrible.

CALLAN: Well, you know, Carol, I think that in this case we're very fortunate that we caught her because bear in mind when someone commits a crime like this once, there's usually a history of this behavior and what really bothered me when I saw the videotape was, she looks behind her before she gets into the vehicle.

So obviously it's premeditated. She's saying to herself, Is anybody watching, and then she proceeds to beat her child. And you really have to wonder, What would happen to this little girl had this incident not been videotaped and what in the world is going on with her other children at home?

So I would expect the prosecutor to take a very tough position with respect to this case, because the very lives of these children may be at stake.

COSTELLO: The other thing that struck me is that she did this in public. Now usually people don't want to lay a hand on their kids in public because you may never know what happens. Does this suggest that she was comfortable with this sort of behavior?

CALLAN: I think it indicates a particularly brazen act and attitude and it's highly suggestive to me that she's done it on other occasions. She's gone on public television now to try to garner sympathy but, you know, it looks like a con artist at work in terms of what she's doing.

COSTELLO: OK, hold that thought because we're going to continue with this topic after the break. I want to hear what you're thinking about Madelyne Toogood. Call me at 1-800-310-4cnn or e-mail talkback@cnn.com. We'll be right back.

(APPPLAUSE)

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Right now on TALKBACK LIVE, a woman caught beating her daughter on videotape explains herself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: People might think I'm a monster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And then, do barbs about Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King in the movie "Barbershop" cut too deep? Listen to the jokes and you be the judge, as TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking of Madelyne Toogood, the woman caught on tape beating her daughter inside an SUV. She was caught on tape in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store. And boy, do our audience have some opinions on this. Brent from New York, your thoughts.

BRENT: Yeah, I think in this politically correct world, we can't spank our child. I have a problem with that. I think this lady just had a bad day. Child obviously got under her skin. She meant to just give a spanking. She got out of control. She admitted it. Granted, she should get some kind of consequence, some kind of punishment, but three years in prison is way too much.

COSTELLO: So you think it was just a spanking. Who else thinks that? Who else has that opinion? What about you, Jennifer from Colorado?

JENNIFER: Just a spanking, but no need whatsoever for abuse to a child that way. None.

COSTELLO: Do you think that this was abuse? This was more than a simple spanking?

JENNIFER: She looked behind her to see who was there. She -- her sister -- I saw the videotape. Her sister actually picked up her child and yanked her by the wrist. So it obviously runs in the family. And I know if she's had abuse before, if she was abused, that's one thing. But anger management, counseling, do something, because your child is 4 years old. You do not do that to a child.

COSTELLO: You seem very emotional about this. This really upsets you.

JENNIFER: Oh, it does. I was really upset.

COSTELLO: OK, we have many other calls. We have callers on the line, too. Christine from Ottawa, what do you have to say?

CHRISTINE: I'm just totally appalled at what this woman did. I have three kids. I'm the same age as her. I've never hit my children that way. And what happens the next time when she has a baseball bat in her hand? The kid gets under her skin, and she starts swinging. Like, this is obviously repeated behavior, because she's looking around. She's checking things out over her shoulder. She knows what she is doing, and it wasn't just nipping at her. She was shaking that child, she was hurting that child. And that's unfair.

COSTELLO: Do you think this woman deserves three years in prison?

CHRISTINE: If not three years, at least a year. Maybe somebody smacking her around in prison would teach her some good.

COSTELLO: Robert, is it likely that this woman will get three years in prison?

HARRIS: I don't know. I think given some of the press conference that's been going on that she clearly will probably get some time. But for me, the issue is more than just what Madelyne Toogood did. It's more about what is going on with this 4-year-old in this situation. We really have to look at it in the context of what is happening with her.

Being put in foster care, although people don't really focus on it, is no picnic, it's no walk in the park. What you have taken is a 4-year-old, put her with strangers, people that she does not know. Hopefully they will be good and kind people, but even in that circumstances, this child is traumatized, you know, worse than probably this 20-second beating.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, it does make you wonder....

HARRIS: The question, also -- the question also...

COSTELLO: Robert, if I can interrupt for just a second. It makes you wonder why the child wasn't placed with the father or a relative of this mother.

HARRIS: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Why was the child placed in foster care?

HARRIS: Absolutely. I guess it would be the call of the state agency, in this case I guess Indiana. For whatever reason, they decided to place the child outside of the care of the father, which doesn't make too much sense to me, since the two boys are left there. It could be because they feel that her story will be slanted or something, or influenced by family members, or it could be that they think that the family might try to hide her or secret her away. It's really hard for me to tell.

CALLAN: You know, Carol, I would -- if I could just get in for just a second.

COSTELLO: Go ahead, Paul.

CALLAN: I think there's something else at work here.

HARRIS: Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. My point is also that as long as they can get in quickly and assess the child, to see what her particular needs are, physically and emotionally, it would be the best thing for not just her but for the society, too.

COSTELLO: OK. Go ahead, Paul.

CALLAN: I suspect that they went with foster parents because these Travelers have a nomadic existence, and probably there was a fear that the child would be moved to another state and the state would not then have an opportunity to fully study the background to find out whether this child has been abused in the past. By putting her in a foster home, they make sure that the child remains local.

COSTELLO: So what is the process here? Will child services people interview the family? Will they interview friends? Will they take the children separately and interview them?

CALLAN: Well, what happens in a case like this...

HARRIS: Sure.

CALLAN: ... you really have a mixture of the criminal justice system working along with civil procedures for helping children. On the criminal side, the prosecutor is going to be looking at the case trying to decide what is an appropriate penalty. Should Madelyne Toogood be put in jail, should she be put on probation. What's appropriate?

The civil people, the child welfare people on the other hand, will be deciding does the child belong with the mother or with foster parents, and what's the history of abuse here, if any.

COSTELLO: What about counseling? Wouldn't that help? Don't they have counseling for parents who can't deal with their kids?

CALLAN: Well, I think ultimately...

HARRIS: They generally have a service that is offered by the state agency. The question is, though, are there other adults in that family also that should be assessed, and quickly. Obviously there's a father that is involved in this case, and I think too often fathers do get overlooked in the system. And in this case, this might be one of those times.

COSTELLO: Well, the father did say he would be willing to separate from Madelyne in order to gain custody of the child. Would a court really go along with that?

CALLAN: Well, they -- the court would take that into consideration, but you can't really legally enforce a divorce. You know, you were asking earlier, Carol, will she really get three years in prison. There's no way she'll get three years in prison, even with all of this national publicity, because the child did not suffer from serious physical injuries. So I think in the end, you will see a prosecutor wanting to see a plea of guilty and wanting to see a way to guarantee the safety of the child, and that might mean counseling, psychiatric treatment, it might involve foster care for the children, but the focus will be on the safety of the children.

COSTELLO: OK. It's time for another break.

Up next, what is best for the little girl? Is she better off with the family member or in foster care? We'll hear what the experts have to say. A judge and a psychiatrist weigh in right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Joining us now is Dr. Jorge Petit, vice chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at North General Hospital in New York, and former juvenile court Judge Glenda Hatchett. Her syndicated television show called "Judge Hatchett" is now in its third season, and of course we're talking about Madelyne Toogood, the woman who was caught on videotape in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store, allegedly beating her child. And I think we have all seen that videotape.

I want to start with you, Jorge, because when you see the tape as a psychiatrist, what goes through your mind?

Well, as you can see, we have a little bit of an audio trouble.

Do we have him now?

DR. JORGE PETIT, PSYCHIATRIST: Can you hear me?

COSTELLO: There you go. We can hear you now.

PETIT: All right.

COSTELLO: Start again.

PETIT: Sure. What I was saying is the first thing that sort of crossed my mind is the welfare of the child. As a physician and as a mandated reporter, that is sort of the first thing that I would worry about, is is this child safe.

Secondly, you wonder about sort of the mental status of this woman who is capable of such degree of brutality in sort of, you know, reprimanding her child. I'd like to know and assess her more carefully to see if there's any psychiatric issues that might be impacting her behavior.

COSTELLO: Well, doctor, you know that we had an interview with Madelyne Toogood, and these are some of the things that she said in our interview. She said being discovered like this was a blessing in disguise. She couldn't believe she did that. And that she was caught, she says maybe others won't do this. She said she was stuck to my stomach. She said, I lost my temper, I should pay for it. What do these statements say about her?

PETIT: Well, hopefully, it means that she's willing to look at her behavior and try to rectify her behaviors. Hopefully she'll be willing to go -- undergo treatment, counseling, anger management. And hopefully, be a better mother. Let's hope it's all true.

COSTELLO: Judge Hatchett, you have probably seen many of these kinds of cases come across your court. Does counseling work?

JUDGE GLENDA HATCHETT, "JUDGE HATCHETT": Too many cases have come across my court, and yes, the answer is yes. Counseling can work. As long as the person really is sincere about getting the help. And the question becomes whether they are going to comply, whether they are going to follow up. And I have seen some remarkable situations -- in fact, a situation where a family had been involved in the judicial system and a child had died because of a beating. As horrible as this video is, we have seen a lot worse. And that's not to minimize her behavior at all.

COSTELLO: And a lot of people have been saying that.

HATCHETT: I want to be real clear. That is no way to minimize her behavior at all. And I want to tell you that I was horrified by the tape. I have to be careful not to comment, because she is going to stand trial, and as a judge I can't comment on her particular case. But I have seen horrendous child abuse cases, and there have been parents who have gone through treatment very successfully and who have been reunited with her children.

COSTELLO: So, doctor, what kind of treatment might this be?

PETIT: It varies. We really have to figure out exactly what is going on with her. Is this in the context of a primary psychiatric disorder like depression or an anxiety disorder, is this substance abuse, is this just breaking the cycle of her being victimized as a child and victimizing her own children. It really varies, but individual therapy, maybe medication might be an option, and anger management, parenting classes. Those are all...

COSTELLO: And then someone to watch her after all of this treatment. Who is going to watch her? Who is going to mind the store?

PETIT: Well, absolutely. I mean, this requires an ongoing process, where maybe the judicial system might have to be involved as well, but certainly you would need periodic monitoring of her behaviors.

COSTELLO: And who would do that and could we trust them to do that. Interesting question, but it's time for a newsbreak right now. I want to hear from you, so call me, e-mail me, get on that e-mail. Send me an instance message. Oh, this is the buddy name, TALKBACK LIVE. You know what I'm talking about. Do that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville this afternoon. And we were talking about Madelyne Toogood, who was caught on videotape allegedly beating her little girl in the parking lot. And something interesting that Judge Hatchett brought up. Her sister is also charged in this case, because she didn't turn in her sister. And you say in 18 states...

HATCHETT: Eighteen states now require that anyone who knows about suspected child abuse has a requirement now to report it. In all states, there's mandatory reporting for certain people -- school teachers, pediatricians, emergency room, law enforcement officers. There is a separate category in all states. But now 18 states have gone a step further, Carol, and they say if you know about suspected child abuse, you have a requirement under the law to report it.

COSTELLO: So if I'm in a supermarket, if I'm in the supermarket and I see some suspicious behavior like that, I'm required by law in 18 states to call the police.

HATCHETT: Right. You are.

COSTELLO: And then what could happen to me if I don't?

HATCHETT: Well, just like the sister was picked up. Now, the likelihood of you being actually prosecuted -- I'm not sure, frankly. As a practical matter. But you are required. And you could be prosecuted, and depending on the state you may face some criminal procedures.

COSTELLO: OK, we have Wayne on the phone right now. Wayne, where are you from?

WAYNE: Pennsylvania.

COSTELLO: And what do you have to say?

WAYNE: I don't believe the lady should necessary go to jail, but I think the family as a whole should undergo through some type of counseling. I think if you put the woman in jail, you will still be punishing the child.

COSTELLO: I'm sorry, could you say that again?

WAYNE: The whole thing?

COSTELLO: Yes, please, I'm sorry. I was distracted. But go ahead, say it again so I can understand.

WAYNE: I don't think that the woman should go to jail. I think that the family as a whole should undergo some counseling. I think if you put the woman in jail, you will be, in a way, punishing the child still for the fact.

COSTELLO: Doctor, do you agree with that?

PETIT: Well, it's difficult. I mean, not having a maternal presence around constantly can be very detrimental for the growth and development of the child. A bad mother, obviously, isn't good either, but I mean, this has to be weighed and assessed very carefully when one is making that decision.

COSTELLO: You know, we always wonder how much it is weighed and assessed, because we hear horrible stories of children returned to parents only for the children to be abused again and again, until God help them, something really horrible happens. Can we really protect this child with our current system?

PETIT: It's a difficult and imperfect system. The reality is, this goes on way too often. It's completely under-reported. There is no perfect mechanism. One tries to do the best in each individual circumstance and pray for a good outcome, but the reality is, it's very difficult, and unfortunately sometimes things don't go the way they should.

COSTELLO: Paul, will you weigh in on this?

CALLAN: Yes. I think that the real danger with this idea that we always return the child to the natural parent or that there is this huge presumption that you give the child back to the natural parent is very, very dangerous. We have seen a lot of cases in New York and in other states where children have been abused terribly, and then as a result of social work and counseling, the child is returned to the natural parent and then is abused, beaten and sometimes killed. If this sort of this politically correct idea that we always have to return children to their natural parent -- I think that the system should look at the safety of the child. That's the predominant thing that should be examined first, and only when we are absolutely certain that the child will not be abused should the natural parent resume his normal rights.

COSTELLO: OK, before we go on with this, I want to go to an audience member. Ayman (ph) from Georgia, what do you have to say?

AYMAN: We all want to believe this is a one time incident, but we don't know that for a fact, and regardless whether it was or it wasn't, it's one thing to spank your child, it's a whole other thing to get into a fight, a one-sided fight with a child. Had she touched an adult like that, she would have been arrested for it, so why not arrest her for touching a child who was defenseless for it?

COSTELLO: Well, they have arrested her, and you bring up a good point there. Judge, I want to ask you more about this, returning the child to a natural parent, and the law being set up in a way where the court must do that. Does there need to be a change in the law?

HATCHETT: Well, let me just correct that. The law doesn't say that as a judge, I'm required to return the child to the natural parent. What the law requires is that the judge act in the best interest of the child. And ideally, you want the child to return home, because there is such trauma in separating a child and the child living in foster care and there is a lot of discussion about that.

But what is in the child's best interest. The priority ought to be to try to put that family back together, but, Carol, there are instances where that's not possible and it's not in the child's best interest. And in that situation, it's better for that child to be removed and hopefully put in a situation so that child may be adopted by a family that will love him or her.

COSTELLO: This particular family is sort of like a Gypsy traveling family. And I know you can't set her on a specific case, but would this enter into a decision about what happens to this child?

HATCHETT: Hypothetically, let's talk about another case. Since I can't talk about her case. I have a family that's transient, that has been moving around, it's a Gypsy family. I would be reluctant to give that child to a family member, because I would be afraid that the child would disappear. And in fact, I had a case like that where child did disappear, and it was months and months and months before they found that child, and that child was injured again.

So you have to be very careful, and that would play a major consideration as to how I would treat that situation, because you need to monitor that child for a long period of time.

COSTELLO: And of course, this must make it difficult for the attorneys representing Madelyne in this case, and also the prosecutor on the other side with the decision he must make in asking for a sentence.

CALLAN: Well, he's got to look to protect the child. And in that instance, at least here, I think you have to say to this family, if you want to keep this child in your custody, you have got to stay put so that we can monitor you for six months or nine months to make sure that you are the proper people to be taking care of this child. If they just disappear in a week, heaven knows what will happen to this child.

COSTELLO: Robert, you get the last word.

HARRIS: Great. You know, we are working in a very -- we are working in a system that tries its best, but it is an imperfect system, and we have to really look at everything from the context of the child and what is best for that child, whether that's to return home to a parent or to remain in foster care, or be adopted by other people. And I have to correct one thing. We keep hearing about children being returned to their parents and hurt. But they get hurt in foster care. We have foster parents that -- it's a minority of those people, but they are -- they cause as much trauma to a child. So sometimes, I won't use my boss' analogy, but it's a decision as to whether you go from a bad situation to a worse situation. Sometimes those are the options that you are faced with.

COSTELLO: Yeah, and the one stuck in the middle is the child. It's a sad story all the way around sometimes. Thank you all. Robert Harris, Paul Callan, Judge Hatchett and Dr. Petit, thank you for joining us today.

Coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE, is the No. 1 movie in the country, "Barbershop," offensive to African-Americans, or do some people just not have a sense of humor? Our next guest says the movie should be recalled and recut. Find out why right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, making fun of sacred cows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BARBERSHOP")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rosa Parks ain't do nothing but sit her black (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Find out why some civil rights activists say that kind of humor is no laughing matter, as TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. The comedy "Barbershop" tickle moviegoers again this weekend, to the tune of $13.3 million, making it no. 1 at the box office. Set inside a black- owned barbershop, the comedy poke fun at some civil rights icons, including Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr. and Jesse Jackson. Jackson agreed to have his picture used in the movie. It hangs inside the barbershop, but says the film makers crossed the line between what's sacred and serious and what's funny. He says: "I could dismiss the comments about me, but Dr. King is dead, and Ms. Parks is an invalid. There are some heroes who are sacred to a people, and these comments poisoned an otherwise funny movie. Why put cyanide in the Kool-Aid?"

OK. I want to show you a movie clip, but first let's meet our guest, Joe Madison, Radio One talk show host. He is the former executive director of the Detroit NAACP and served on its board of directors. Also with us is Sig, a stand-up comedian in New York. Now, let's start by watching that clip from "Barbershop."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BARBERSHOP")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are three things that black people don't tell the truth about. One, one, Rodney King should have got (UNINTELLIGIBLE) beat for driving (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Two, O.J. did it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. did it? Oh, man!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. did it. And three, Rosa Parks ain't do nothing but sit her black (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down.

That's right. I said it. I said it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I'm going to back you up on that. Because see, look, he was on the bus back in the day, and he's on the bus now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only what you're saying is not true, it is wrong and disrespectful to discuss Rosa Parks in that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on here. Is this a barbershop? Is this a barbershop?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a barbershop. I mean, if we can't talk straight in a barbershop, then where can we talk straight? We can't talk straight nowhere else. You know, this ain't nothing but a healthy conversation. That's all it is.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ain't nobody exempt in a barbershop. You know that. Ain't nobody exempt. You can talk about whoever, whatever, whenever you want to in a barbershop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. Do you find that offensive or funny? Joe Madison, you find it quite offensive. Why?

JOE MADISON, RADIO ONE TALK SHOW HOST: Well, because I agree with Reverend Jackson, and as a matter of fact, I think it was Mrs. Jackson who I first had communication with about this, and that is that there are certain things that are sacred. You know, we think that a woman statue falling from the World Trade Center was offensive and people had it removed. And I think they were right in doing so. No one really makes fun of people whose parents have committed suicide. I mean, right there at CNN, a tragedy happened to Ted Turner, and I guarantee you no one at CNN will find that funny by any means.

Rosa Parks is sacred. Golda Meir is sacred. I think that Nelson Mandela -- who would make fun of Nelson Mandela spending 27 years in prison?

My point is, it's a funny movie. If you just took that scene out, it would still be a very funny movie, and I think as African- Americans in particular and people in general, we need to hold certain things sacred and we also need not to sell our dignity for a few dollars.

COSTELLO: Sig, I know you disagree with them. Are you going to tell him to lighten up and get a sense of humor?

SIG, STAND-UP COMEDIAN: Well, actually, I think that he really needs to get a sense of humor. First off, there's nothing sacred in comedy at all. Comedy stretches the boundaries. We go to the envelope. We take it as far as we possibly can. And even in the movie, you can see that there were some people in the barbershop that disagreed with him.

He was playing a character. And a comedic character at that, and he was playing the fool. I mean, in every barbershop, there's someone who plays the fool. And then there were people also in the barbershop that disagreed with the statements that he was saying. So in comedy, you cannot sensor comedy. You have to push the envelope.

You know, we have the same thing on late night talk shows, where the host would talk about different things. I mean, I mean, somebody even as important as the president of the United States, we poke fun at that. Bill Clinton and all kind of other icons to our country. So we just can't sensor or put certain people aside simply for the fact that they are African-American or they're icons.

COSTELLO: I understand. Understand. And I must say, during that clip, wait one second, during that clip, many people in the TALKBACK LIVE audience were laughing. And many of them have very strong opinions. You saw the movie. What did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought the movie was funny. I was not offended by any means of what they said, because if you look at it, you had a brother in the back who was diffusing what he said, and that's what opinion (ph) is all about. That's what -- we live in America, the land of the brave and the free and the freedom of speech. So he had a right to say what he wanted to say, and someone behind him had a right to disagree. And that's what it's all about. And I wasn't offended by it.

COSTELLO: But making fun of Rosa Parks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King are not God. They are not God. If you talk about God, then most would really have a problem, but they are human beings too.

COSTELLO: You look like a very young person. Are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

COSTELLO: Yes, a very young person. Joe, might there be some sort of disconnect? Might the younger generation of African-Americans feel a whole lot differently, not disrespecting Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr., but maybe enough time has passed where they can discuss it and joke about it and use comedy as a means to discuss?

MADISON: I had the same reaction from my young adults in my family, and my son said the very same thing, close to what that young man said. It's comedy.

Look, I remember when Michael Jackson did the "History" album. Michael Jackson had lyrics in there that said "Don't Jew me, don't kike me." The Jewish community was so offended that they made him not only apologize, but he had to go back into the studio and re-record, and they took every CD off the shelves.

And I applaud them for having that type of sensitivity, because we must culturally recondition the minds of young people to understand what Rosa Parks went through was not funny. Nothing was funny.

COSTELLO: OK, you feel very passionately about this and we're going to get back to you, but we have to take a break first. If you saw the movie, let me know what you think about it. Call me, e-mail me. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We got a hot topic now. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the movie "Barbershop," and within that movie, the characters make fun of civil rights icons like Jesse Jackson, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, that has made some of the African community very upset. We want to go to Sig the comedian right now. Sig, you just have one name, just like Cher?

SIG: Yes, just Sig, just like Cher.

COSTELLO: Got you. I wanted to ask you this. Well, first of all, is there anything you would not make fun of?

SIG: Absolutely not. As a comedian, it's my job to push the envelope and to make light of things that ordinarily would be tragic.

COSTELLO: Like September 11? Would you make fun of that?

SIG: September 11 -- I can tell you, there are countless comedians -- we didn't actually talk about the victims of September 11, but the surrounding situation around it, like there were a lot of people who are just oblivious to what the World Trade Center is. There are a lot of -- we don't talk about it, but there are a lot of African-American people who don't even leave their own neighborhood, who have never visited the World Trade Center, and they were oblivious to what actually was going on at the time.

MADISON: Wait a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

MADISON: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He just proved my point. He won't make fun of the victims. Well, Rosa Parks was a victim. Isn't it amazing, he said on one hand, we push the envelope on everything. But he won't make fun of the victims. Why? Because there will be a backlash.

COSTELLO: Don't you think timing matters here?

MADISON: Yes. Absolutely. It does.

COSTELLO: It's been a long time.

MADISON: And let me understand something. I love comedians. I love -- I go to comedy store shows. I love them. But you are right. Timing is a factor. Rosa Parks can't defend herself, just like the victims in the World Trade Center can't defend themselves, because it's not funny.

SIG: I don't think that Rosa Parks has to defend herself. I don't think that, you know, Cedric the Entertainer playing the character, I'm certain that he doesn't find any malice with Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson. I mean just because they are icons, we hold them sacred as icons, but that doesn't prevent us from interjecting them into our comedy routines.

COSTELLO: OK, I have to stop you guys right now. One more thing to say about this. Right now, we have to go to Judy Woodruff with a preview of "INSIDE POLITICS."

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. And straight ahead, Sean "P. Diddy" Combs decides politics is hip. He plans a political endorsement.

A Senate showdown in New Jersey. President Bush makes a personal appearance to try to topple an incumbent Democrat.

Al Gore weighs in on Iraq. Plus, political fallout from the German election.

"INSIDE POLITICS" begins at the top of the hour. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the controversy surrounding the movie "Barbershop." We want to go to Ester on the phone. She is from Texas. Ester, you saw the movie. What did you think?

ESTER: Yes, I'm here. I really believe that this movie is not about racism. This is about show biz. I mean, a lot of people did not get offended when comedians joked about Michael Jackson, and there are a lot of actors and actresses that disses God in movies, and no one is offended about that.

COSTELLO: And gentleman, you have to admit, this movie is very popular, and although about 70 percent of the audience has been African-American, 30 percent have not been, and you have to admit that's a good thing. So something about this movie is touching a generation and drawing them into the theaters, no matter the color of their skin.

MADISON: Well, what is drawing them in the theater -- and I'm going to make this point to the credit of the entertainers who were part of that movie -- I understand that the offensive lines we are talking about was not included in the original script. And the comedians on the set were offended, and there was an argument that took place. So to their credit, they did speak out and they didn't like it, but of course they didn't direct it or produce it.

COSTELLO: All right. You have the last word, Joe, thank you very much for being with us today, because we are out of time. Our thanks to Joe Madison and Sig, and thank you too for watching. I'm Carol Costello in for Arthel Neville. I'll be back tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE, and you can see me every morning on "DAYBREAK" from 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on CNN. "INSIDE POLITICS" is coming your way next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Leaders Upset Over 'Barbershop'>


Aired September 23, 2002 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN HOST: Oh, we love our audience today. A mighty audience and I love that. And we have some great debate coming your way on TALKBACK LIVE.
Hello everyone, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville.

Last week everyone was looking for Madelyne Toogood. You know, the woman caught on tape in a Kohl's parking lot beating her 4-year- old daughter. About a half hour ago she was in court facing felony battery charges and the little girl is now in foster care. We'll start with what should happen to Madelyne Toogood and then stay tuned and find out why some civil rights leaders are upset about this week's No. 1 movie "Barbershop." That's coming up later.

But first, have you ever had a bad day? Madelyne Toogood says she had one the day the videotape was shot outside of a Kohl's department store in Indiana. But in an exclusive interview with CNN, Ms. Toogood admits it wasn't a reason to hit her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE TOOGOOD, MOTHER ACCUSED OF BEATING CHILD ON TAPE: Martha was just being Martha. She was running, she was getting lost, she was opening everything in the store. She was jumping from the counter to the stroller. You know, that's just a typical day in -- with Martha. I was probably bickering with my sister, another sister, and my husband that day but and -- but no, nothing that would even have anything to do with Martha.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Ms. Toogood was in court just a few minutes ago and she pleaded not guilty, and here to talk about the case are attorney Robert Harris, chief deputy public guardian of Cook County, Illinois. His office represents abused and neglected children and acts as their guardian.

Also, former New York City prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callan is here to talk about this.

PAUL CALLAN, FORMER NEW YORK CITY PROSECUTOR AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi.

COSTELLO: First, before we get to you guys, we're going to go live outside the courtroom in South Bend, Indiana where CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman is standing by. This was a very short court hearing, Gary. What happened?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, lasted for a grand total of two minutes and the judge actually gave her plea for her. He said, You're not guilty. Come back October 7 and you will have a status hearing.

But this is very unusual case is the sense that this young woman, she's 25 years old, has already admitted to us, talking to us, that she committed the crime. She says she did commit battery. So it leaves her lawyer three paths. And he what he told us just a short time ago is what he wants to do is try to get a plea bargain. Maximum penalty of three years for this felony battery charge.

If he can't get a plea bargain, he might plead guilty in court and then ask for the mercy of the court.

If that doesn't work out, the third option, this is his least favorite option, is to actually go to trial. And he does say, the attorney, that if he goes to trial what he might have to do is blow up the videotape and show, Yes, while she did beat her daughter, it's not as bad as most people think.

COSTELLO: What did she tell you, Gary Tuchman? Because I know that you got the exclusive interview with her. How far did she say the alleged abuse went?

TUCHMAN: It lasted 25 seconds, she says. And she claims that she's never done anything like this before and it's certainly up to the viewer to believe whether that's true or not. She says she has slapped her three children's behinds before, but never done this. And she said she went into the store, she was in a Kohl's department store here in northern Indiana, and she says she was having a bad day, that her child was opening up toys and playing hide-and-seek in the store. She had an argument with her sister. She also said while she was in the store, some suspicious security guards opened up a bag she had and when she walked out, she says she just kind of flipped out.

Now, she says that's no excuse. She apologizes profusely. She says she's ashamed. She says she's embarrassed. She says she's humiliated and she says she apologized to her little 4-year-old daughter Martha afterwards and Martha said to her, Mommy, you messed up my pigtails when you pulled them.

COSTELLO: Oh. What exact abuse did she admit to? Just slapping the child once in the forehead and what else?

TUCHMAN: She says she has admitted to slapping the child. She has admitted to shaking the child. I asked her very specifically, It looks like you were punching the child, and she used her hands to show, I wasn't punching the child, I was going like this and grabbing her hair. Now, we have no way of knowing that's true. We couldn't see that. We can actually see her pulling the hair at one point, the ponytail, but claims she didn't punch the child.

COSTELLO: And one last question, quickly, where are the children now? Because this woman has two other little boys, right? TUCHMAN: Right. Her two little boys, who are 5- and 6-years-old are with other family members right now. The court has not yet said whether this 25-year-old mother can spend time with her two older boys. That's not clear at this point. As far as her daughter goes, her daughter is living with a foster family here and that will continue indefinitely. We didn't know how long exactly. The state is not saying, but her attorney just told us a short time ago that he expects it will be at least three months.

COSTELLO: And I want to ask you one more thing before we go, because there's something strange about this case. This family belongs to a group of people called the Irish Travelers. What is that?

TUCHMAN: This is a very unique part of the case. And it's a term that many of you may have heard, many may not. But few people understand what they are. The Irish Travelers is a group of about a few hundred Americans and they are a very insular community, they don't socialize much with other people, and what they do is they move around the country constantly. They go where the work is.

Now, there's a word that many people consider unkind. That word is gypsy. And that's what some people liken the Irish Travelers to. Some of the Irish Travelers, and there are a lot of them here because they're here supporting her, mother and her sisters and her husband. Some of them say it's an OK word, others say it isn't. But what they do is they travel around the country and that concerns people here, the prosecutors, and that's one of the reasons they're concerned about the custody issue, because she doesn't, Madelyne Toogood, have a permanent address.

But I should point out this is important, Carol. This is one of the things Madelyne Toogood says that might have led to this whole thing. When she was in the Kohl's department store she says people were suspicious of her, as they often are, because they can spot the Irish Travelers, out people in stores. And that's why they say she opened her bag -- they opened her bag. And that's why she says the store surveillance camera outside the store was actually shooting her as she walked out because they thought she was suspicious.

She also says though, and this is important, that she feels it's a good thing the camera was shooting it, because it's taught her a lesson and she hopes, she tells me, it teaches other people a lesson, too.

COSTELLO: All right, Gary Tuchman, thank you very much for joining us. Again, you heard this woman, Madelyne Toogood, pleaded not guilty at her arraignment. It's just a technical thing that the court process goes through.

I want to bring in our guests right now. Paul Callan, who is a criminal defense attorney.

We think that she's going to -- or her attorney is going to arrange some sort of plea bargain. What might that be? CALLAN: Well you know, what is remarkable with this attorney is that he's put his client on television, nationally, and had her confess to the crime. I have never seen a defense attorney do that. And he's really taken a lot of options away in terms of trying to get leniency from the court in my view. She's facing potentially three years and I think he's going to get a difficult time -- have a difficult time getting a judge to be particularly lenient with her.

Obviously he's going to be bargaining for a situation where she does minimal time or no time and where she gets her child back.

COSTELLO: How much time should it be? Let me bring Robert Harris in here. He's the chief deputy public guardian for the state of Illinois. Does this woman deserve three years in prison?

ROBERT HARRIS, PUBLIC GUARDIAN ATTORNEY: Well, you know, what she did is a horrible thing, obviously. But I think it's made even more horrible or blown really to a greater scale because of the fact that it was caught on tape and then shown throughout the country. In the scheme of things, what she did in this particular case, is less horrendous than many of the cases that I see.

I see cases involving sex abuse and physical abuse where the parents are never prosecuted, it never even comes up as a question. There's never even a charge or an arrest.

COSTELLO: But should that really matter?

HARRIS: She got caught on tape.

COSTELLO: Should that really matter though? She did get caught on tape, and what she did appears to be really horrible.

CALLAN: Well, you know, Carol, I think that in this case we're very fortunate that we caught her because bear in mind when someone commits a crime like this once, there's usually a history of this behavior and what really bothered me when I saw the videotape was, she looks behind her before she gets into the vehicle.

So obviously it's premeditated. She's saying to herself, Is anybody watching, and then she proceeds to beat her child. And you really have to wonder, What would happen to this little girl had this incident not been videotaped and what in the world is going on with her other children at home?

So I would expect the prosecutor to take a very tough position with respect to this case, because the very lives of these children may be at stake.

COSTELLO: The other thing that struck me is that she did this in public. Now usually people don't want to lay a hand on their kids in public because you may never know what happens. Does this suggest that she was comfortable with this sort of behavior?

CALLAN: I think it indicates a particularly brazen act and attitude and it's highly suggestive to me that she's done it on other occasions. She's gone on public television now to try to garner sympathy but, you know, it looks like a con artist at work in terms of what she's doing.

COSTELLO: OK, hold that thought because we're going to continue with this topic after the break. I want to hear what you're thinking about Madelyne Toogood. Call me at 1-800-310-4cnn or e-mail talkback@cnn.com. We'll be right back.

(APPPLAUSE)

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Right now on TALKBACK LIVE, a woman caught beating her daughter on videotape explains herself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: People might think I'm a monster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And then, do barbs about Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King in the movie "Barbershop" cut too deep? Listen to the jokes and you be the judge, as TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking of Madelyne Toogood, the woman caught on tape beating her daughter inside an SUV. She was caught on tape in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store. And boy, do our audience have some opinions on this. Brent from New York, your thoughts.

BRENT: Yeah, I think in this politically correct world, we can't spank our child. I have a problem with that. I think this lady just had a bad day. Child obviously got under her skin. She meant to just give a spanking. She got out of control. She admitted it. Granted, she should get some kind of consequence, some kind of punishment, but three years in prison is way too much.

COSTELLO: So you think it was just a spanking. Who else thinks that? Who else has that opinion? What about you, Jennifer from Colorado?

JENNIFER: Just a spanking, but no need whatsoever for abuse to a child that way. None.

COSTELLO: Do you think that this was abuse? This was more than a simple spanking?

JENNIFER: She looked behind her to see who was there. She -- her sister -- I saw the videotape. Her sister actually picked up her child and yanked her by the wrist. So it obviously runs in the family. And I know if she's had abuse before, if she was abused, that's one thing. But anger management, counseling, do something, because your child is 4 years old. You do not do that to a child.

COSTELLO: You seem very emotional about this. This really upsets you.

JENNIFER: Oh, it does. I was really upset.

COSTELLO: OK, we have many other calls. We have callers on the line, too. Christine from Ottawa, what do you have to say?

CHRISTINE: I'm just totally appalled at what this woman did. I have three kids. I'm the same age as her. I've never hit my children that way. And what happens the next time when she has a baseball bat in her hand? The kid gets under her skin, and she starts swinging. Like, this is obviously repeated behavior, because she's looking around. She's checking things out over her shoulder. She knows what she is doing, and it wasn't just nipping at her. She was shaking that child, she was hurting that child. And that's unfair.

COSTELLO: Do you think this woman deserves three years in prison?

CHRISTINE: If not three years, at least a year. Maybe somebody smacking her around in prison would teach her some good.

COSTELLO: Robert, is it likely that this woman will get three years in prison?

HARRIS: I don't know. I think given some of the press conference that's been going on that she clearly will probably get some time. But for me, the issue is more than just what Madelyne Toogood did. It's more about what is going on with this 4-year-old in this situation. We really have to look at it in the context of what is happening with her.

Being put in foster care, although people don't really focus on it, is no picnic, it's no walk in the park. What you have taken is a 4-year-old, put her with strangers, people that she does not know. Hopefully they will be good and kind people, but even in that circumstances, this child is traumatized, you know, worse than probably this 20-second beating.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, it does make you wonder....

HARRIS: The question, also -- the question also...

COSTELLO: Robert, if I can interrupt for just a second. It makes you wonder why the child wasn't placed with the father or a relative of this mother.

HARRIS: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Why was the child placed in foster care?

HARRIS: Absolutely. I guess it would be the call of the state agency, in this case I guess Indiana. For whatever reason, they decided to place the child outside of the care of the father, which doesn't make too much sense to me, since the two boys are left there. It could be because they feel that her story will be slanted or something, or influenced by family members, or it could be that they think that the family might try to hide her or secret her away. It's really hard for me to tell.

CALLAN: You know, Carol, I would -- if I could just get in for just a second.

COSTELLO: Go ahead, Paul.

CALLAN: I think there's something else at work here.

HARRIS: Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. My point is also that as long as they can get in quickly and assess the child, to see what her particular needs are, physically and emotionally, it would be the best thing for not just her but for the society, too.

COSTELLO: OK. Go ahead, Paul.

CALLAN: I suspect that they went with foster parents because these Travelers have a nomadic existence, and probably there was a fear that the child would be moved to another state and the state would not then have an opportunity to fully study the background to find out whether this child has been abused in the past. By putting her in a foster home, they make sure that the child remains local.

COSTELLO: So what is the process here? Will child services people interview the family? Will they interview friends? Will they take the children separately and interview them?

CALLAN: Well, what happens in a case like this...

HARRIS: Sure.

CALLAN: ... you really have a mixture of the criminal justice system working along with civil procedures for helping children. On the criminal side, the prosecutor is going to be looking at the case trying to decide what is an appropriate penalty. Should Madelyne Toogood be put in jail, should she be put on probation. What's appropriate?

The civil people, the child welfare people on the other hand, will be deciding does the child belong with the mother or with foster parents, and what's the history of abuse here, if any.

COSTELLO: What about counseling? Wouldn't that help? Don't they have counseling for parents who can't deal with their kids?

CALLAN: Well, I think ultimately...

HARRIS: They generally have a service that is offered by the state agency. The question is, though, are there other adults in that family also that should be assessed, and quickly. Obviously there's a father that is involved in this case, and I think too often fathers do get overlooked in the system. And in this case, this might be one of those times.

COSTELLO: Well, the father did say he would be willing to separate from Madelyne in order to gain custody of the child. Would a court really go along with that?

CALLAN: Well, they -- the court would take that into consideration, but you can't really legally enforce a divorce. You know, you were asking earlier, Carol, will she really get three years in prison. There's no way she'll get three years in prison, even with all of this national publicity, because the child did not suffer from serious physical injuries. So I think in the end, you will see a prosecutor wanting to see a plea of guilty and wanting to see a way to guarantee the safety of the child, and that might mean counseling, psychiatric treatment, it might involve foster care for the children, but the focus will be on the safety of the children.

COSTELLO: OK. It's time for another break.

Up next, what is best for the little girl? Is she better off with the family member or in foster care? We'll hear what the experts have to say. A judge and a psychiatrist weigh in right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Joining us now is Dr. Jorge Petit, vice chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at North General Hospital in New York, and former juvenile court Judge Glenda Hatchett. Her syndicated television show called "Judge Hatchett" is now in its third season, and of course we're talking about Madelyne Toogood, the woman who was caught on videotape in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store, allegedly beating her child. And I think we have all seen that videotape.

I want to start with you, Jorge, because when you see the tape as a psychiatrist, what goes through your mind?

Well, as you can see, we have a little bit of an audio trouble.

Do we have him now?

DR. JORGE PETIT, PSYCHIATRIST: Can you hear me?

COSTELLO: There you go. We can hear you now.

PETIT: All right.

COSTELLO: Start again.

PETIT: Sure. What I was saying is the first thing that sort of crossed my mind is the welfare of the child. As a physician and as a mandated reporter, that is sort of the first thing that I would worry about, is is this child safe.

Secondly, you wonder about sort of the mental status of this woman who is capable of such degree of brutality in sort of, you know, reprimanding her child. I'd like to know and assess her more carefully to see if there's any psychiatric issues that might be impacting her behavior.

COSTELLO: Well, doctor, you know that we had an interview with Madelyne Toogood, and these are some of the things that she said in our interview. She said being discovered like this was a blessing in disguise. She couldn't believe she did that. And that she was caught, she says maybe others won't do this. She said she was stuck to my stomach. She said, I lost my temper, I should pay for it. What do these statements say about her?

PETIT: Well, hopefully, it means that she's willing to look at her behavior and try to rectify her behaviors. Hopefully she'll be willing to go -- undergo treatment, counseling, anger management. And hopefully, be a better mother. Let's hope it's all true.

COSTELLO: Judge Hatchett, you have probably seen many of these kinds of cases come across your court. Does counseling work?

JUDGE GLENDA HATCHETT, "JUDGE HATCHETT": Too many cases have come across my court, and yes, the answer is yes. Counseling can work. As long as the person really is sincere about getting the help. And the question becomes whether they are going to comply, whether they are going to follow up. And I have seen some remarkable situations -- in fact, a situation where a family had been involved in the judicial system and a child had died because of a beating. As horrible as this video is, we have seen a lot worse. And that's not to minimize her behavior at all.

COSTELLO: And a lot of people have been saying that.

HATCHETT: I want to be real clear. That is no way to minimize her behavior at all. And I want to tell you that I was horrified by the tape. I have to be careful not to comment, because she is going to stand trial, and as a judge I can't comment on her particular case. But I have seen horrendous child abuse cases, and there have been parents who have gone through treatment very successfully and who have been reunited with her children.

COSTELLO: So, doctor, what kind of treatment might this be?

PETIT: It varies. We really have to figure out exactly what is going on with her. Is this in the context of a primary psychiatric disorder like depression or an anxiety disorder, is this substance abuse, is this just breaking the cycle of her being victimized as a child and victimizing her own children. It really varies, but individual therapy, maybe medication might be an option, and anger management, parenting classes. Those are all...

COSTELLO: And then someone to watch her after all of this treatment. Who is going to watch her? Who is going to mind the store?

PETIT: Well, absolutely. I mean, this requires an ongoing process, where maybe the judicial system might have to be involved as well, but certainly you would need periodic monitoring of her behaviors.

COSTELLO: And who would do that and could we trust them to do that. Interesting question, but it's time for a newsbreak right now. I want to hear from you, so call me, e-mail me, get on that e-mail. Send me an instance message. Oh, this is the buddy name, TALKBACK LIVE. You know what I'm talking about. Do that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville this afternoon. And we were talking about Madelyne Toogood, who was caught on videotape allegedly beating her little girl in the parking lot. And something interesting that Judge Hatchett brought up. Her sister is also charged in this case, because she didn't turn in her sister. And you say in 18 states...

HATCHETT: Eighteen states now require that anyone who knows about suspected child abuse has a requirement now to report it. In all states, there's mandatory reporting for certain people -- school teachers, pediatricians, emergency room, law enforcement officers. There is a separate category in all states. But now 18 states have gone a step further, Carol, and they say if you know about suspected child abuse, you have a requirement under the law to report it.

COSTELLO: So if I'm in a supermarket, if I'm in the supermarket and I see some suspicious behavior like that, I'm required by law in 18 states to call the police.

HATCHETT: Right. You are.

COSTELLO: And then what could happen to me if I don't?

HATCHETT: Well, just like the sister was picked up. Now, the likelihood of you being actually prosecuted -- I'm not sure, frankly. As a practical matter. But you are required. And you could be prosecuted, and depending on the state you may face some criminal procedures.

COSTELLO: OK, we have Wayne on the phone right now. Wayne, where are you from?

WAYNE: Pennsylvania.

COSTELLO: And what do you have to say?

WAYNE: I don't believe the lady should necessary go to jail, but I think the family as a whole should undergo through some type of counseling. I think if you put the woman in jail, you will still be punishing the child.

COSTELLO: I'm sorry, could you say that again?

WAYNE: The whole thing?

COSTELLO: Yes, please, I'm sorry. I was distracted. But go ahead, say it again so I can understand.

WAYNE: I don't think that the woman should go to jail. I think that the family as a whole should undergo some counseling. I think if you put the woman in jail, you will be, in a way, punishing the child still for the fact.

COSTELLO: Doctor, do you agree with that?

PETIT: Well, it's difficult. I mean, not having a maternal presence around constantly can be very detrimental for the growth and development of the child. A bad mother, obviously, isn't good either, but I mean, this has to be weighed and assessed very carefully when one is making that decision.

COSTELLO: You know, we always wonder how much it is weighed and assessed, because we hear horrible stories of children returned to parents only for the children to be abused again and again, until God help them, something really horrible happens. Can we really protect this child with our current system?

PETIT: It's a difficult and imperfect system. The reality is, this goes on way too often. It's completely under-reported. There is no perfect mechanism. One tries to do the best in each individual circumstance and pray for a good outcome, but the reality is, it's very difficult, and unfortunately sometimes things don't go the way they should.

COSTELLO: Paul, will you weigh in on this?

CALLAN: Yes. I think that the real danger with this idea that we always return the child to the natural parent or that there is this huge presumption that you give the child back to the natural parent is very, very dangerous. We have seen a lot of cases in New York and in other states where children have been abused terribly, and then as a result of social work and counseling, the child is returned to the natural parent and then is abused, beaten and sometimes killed. If this sort of this politically correct idea that we always have to return children to their natural parent -- I think that the system should look at the safety of the child. That's the predominant thing that should be examined first, and only when we are absolutely certain that the child will not be abused should the natural parent resume his normal rights.

COSTELLO: OK, before we go on with this, I want to go to an audience member. Ayman (ph) from Georgia, what do you have to say?

AYMAN: We all want to believe this is a one time incident, but we don't know that for a fact, and regardless whether it was or it wasn't, it's one thing to spank your child, it's a whole other thing to get into a fight, a one-sided fight with a child. Had she touched an adult like that, she would have been arrested for it, so why not arrest her for touching a child who was defenseless for it?

COSTELLO: Well, they have arrested her, and you bring up a good point there. Judge, I want to ask you more about this, returning the child to a natural parent, and the law being set up in a way where the court must do that. Does there need to be a change in the law?

HATCHETT: Well, let me just correct that. The law doesn't say that as a judge, I'm required to return the child to the natural parent. What the law requires is that the judge act in the best interest of the child. And ideally, you want the child to return home, because there is such trauma in separating a child and the child living in foster care and there is a lot of discussion about that.

But what is in the child's best interest. The priority ought to be to try to put that family back together, but, Carol, there are instances where that's not possible and it's not in the child's best interest. And in that situation, it's better for that child to be removed and hopefully put in a situation so that child may be adopted by a family that will love him or her.

COSTELLO: This particular family is sort of like a Gypsy traveling family. And I know you can't set her on a specific case, but would this enter into a decision about what happens to this child?

HATCHETT: Hypothetically, let's talk about another case. Since I can't talk about her case. I have a family that's transient, that has been moving around, it's a Gypsy family. I would be reluctant to give that child to a family member, because I would be afraid that the child would disappear. And in fact, I had a case like that where child did disappear, and it was months and months and months before they found that child, and that child was injured again.

So you have to be very careful, and that would play a major consideration as to how I would treat that situation, because you need to monitor that child for a long period of time.

COSTELLO: And of course, this must make it difficult for the attorneys representing Madelyne in this case, and also the prosecutor on the other side with the decision he must make in asking for a sentence.

CALLAN: Well, he's got to look to protect the child. And in that instance, at least here, I think you have to say to this family, if you want to keep this child in your custody, you have got to stay put so that we can monitor you for six months or nine months to make sure that you are the proper people to be taking care of this child. If they just disappear in a week, heaven knows what will happen to this child.

COSTELLO: Robert, you get the last word.

HARRIS: Great. You know, we are working in a very -- we are working in a system that tries its best, but it is an imperfect system, and we have to really look at everything from the context of the child and what is best for that child, whether that's to return home to a parent or to remain in foster care, or be adopted by other people. And I have to correct one thing. We keep hearing about children being returned to their parents and hurt. But they get hurt in foster care. We have foster parents that -- it's a minority of those people, but they are -- they cause as much trauma to a child. So sometimes, I won't use my boss' analogy, but it's a decision as to whether you go from a bad situation to a worse situation. Sometimes those are the options that you are faced with.

COSTELLO: Yeah, and the one stuck in the middle is the child. It's a sad story all the way around sometimes. Thank you all. Robert Harris, Paul Callan, Judge Hatchett and Dr. Petit, thank you for joining us today.

Coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE, is the No. 1 movie in the country, "Barbershop," offensive to African-Americans, or do some people just not have a sense of humor? Our next guest says the movie should be recalled and recut. Find out why right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, making fun of sacred cows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BARBERSHOP")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rosa Parks ain't do nothing but sit her black (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Find out why some civil rights activists say that kind of humor is no laughing matter, as TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. The comedy "Barbershop" tickle moviegoers again this weekend, to the tune of $13.3 million, making it no. 1 at the box office. Set inside a black- owned barbershop, the comedy poke fun at some civil rights icons, including Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr. and Jesse Jackson. Jackson agreed to have his picture used in the movie. It hangs inside the barbershop, but says the film makers crossed the line between what's sacred and serious and what's funny. He says: "I could dismiss the comments about me, but Dr. King is dead, and Ms. Parks is an invalid. There are some heroes who are sacred to a people, and these comments poisoned an otherwise funny movie. Why put cyanide in the Kool-Aid?"

OK. I want to show you a movie clip, but first let's meet our guest, Joe Madison, Radio One talk show host. He is the former executive director of the Detroit NAACP and served on its board of directors. Also with us is Sig, a stand-up comedian in New York. Now, let's start by watching that clip from "Barbershop."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BARBERSHOP")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are three things that black people don't tell the truth about. One, one, Rodney King should have got (UNINTELLIGIBLE) beat for driving (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Two, O.J. did it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. did it? Oh, man!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. did it. And three, Rosa Parks ain't do nothing but sit her black (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down.

That's right. I said it. I said it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I'm going to back you up on that. Because see, look, he was on the bus back in the day, and he's on the bus now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only what you're saying is not true, it is wrong and disrespectful to discuss Rosa Parks in that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on here. Is this a barbershop? Is this a barbershop?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a barbershop. I mean, if we can't talk straight in a barbershop, then where can we talk straight? We can't talk straight nowhere else. You know, this ain't nothing but a healthy conversation. That's all it is.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ain't nobody exempt in a barbershop. You know that. Ain't nobody exempt. You can talk about whoever, whatever, whenever you want to in a barbershop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. Do you find that offensive or funny? Joe Madison, you find it quite offensive. Why?

JOE MADISON, RADIO ONE TALK SHOW HOST: Well, because I agree with Reverend Jackson, and as a matter of fact, I think it was Mrs. Jackson who I first had communication with about this, and that is that there are certain things that are sacred. You know, we think that a woman statue falling from the World Trade Center was offensive and people had it removed. And I think they were right in doing so. No one really makes fun of people whose parents have committed suicide. I mean, right there at CNN, a tragedy happened to Ted Turner, and I guarantee you no one at CNN will find that funny by any means.

Rosa Parks is sacred. Golda Meir is sacred. I think that Nelson Mandela -- who would make fun of Nelson Mandela spending 27 years in prison?

My point is, it's a funny movie. If you just took that scene out, it would still be a very funny movie, and I think as African- Americans in particular and people in general, we need to hold certain things sacred and we also need not to sell our dignity for a few dollars.

COSTELLO: Sig, I know you disagree with them. Are you going to tell him to lighten up and get a sense of humor?

SIG, STAND-UP COMEDIAN: Well, actually, I think that he really needs to get a sense of humor. First off, there's nothing sacred in comedy at all. Comedy stretches the boundaries. We go to the envelope. We take it as far as we possibly can. And even in the movie, you can see that there were some people in the barbershop that disagreed with him.

He was playing a character. And a comedic character at that, and he was playing the fool. I mean, in every barbershop, there's someone who plays the fool. And then there were people also in the barbershop that disagreed with the statements that he was saying. So in comedy, you cannot sensor comedy. You have to push the envelope.

You know, we have the same thing on late night talk shows, where the host would talk about different things. I mean, I mean, somebody even as important as the president of the United States, we poke fun at that. Bill Clinton and all kind of other icons to our country. So we just can't sensor or put certain people aside simply for the fact that they are African-American or they're icons.

COSTELLO: I understand. Understand. And I must say, during that clip, wait one second, during that clip, many people in the TALKBACK LIVE audience were laughing. And many of them have very strong opinions. You saw the movie. What did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought the movie was funny. I was not offended by any means of what they said, because if you look at it, you had a brother in the back who was diffusing what he said, and that's what opinion (ph) is all about. That's what -- we live in America, the land of the brave and the free and the freedom of speech. So he had a right to say what he wanted to say, and someone behind him had a right to disagree. And that's what it's all about. And I wasn't offended by it.

COSTELLO: But making fun of Rosa Parks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King are not God. They are not God. If you talk about God, then most would really have a problem, but they are human beings too.

COSTELLO: You look like a very young person. Are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

COSTELLO: Yes, a very young person. Joe, might there be some sort of disconnect? Might the younger generation of African-Americans feel a whole lot differently, not disrespecting Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr., but maybe enough time has passed where they can discuss it and joke about it and use comedy as a means to discuss?

MADISON: I had the same reaction from my young adults in my family, and my son said the very same thing, close to what that young man said. It's comedy.

Look, I remember when Michael Jackson did the "History" album. Michael Jackson had lyrics in there that said "Don't Jew me, don't kike me." The Jewish community was so offended that they made him not only apologize, but he had to go back into the studio and re-record, and they took every CD off the shelves.

And I applaud them for having that type of sensitivity, because we must culturally recondition the minds of young people to understand what Rosa Parks went through was not funny. Nothing was funny.

COSTELLO: OK, you feel very passionately about this and we're going to get back to you, but we have to take a break first. If you saw the movie, let me know what you think about it. Call me, e-mail me. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We got a hot topic now. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the movie "Barbershop," and within that movie, the characters make fun of civil rights icons like Jesse Jackson, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, that has made some of the African community very upset. We want to go to Sig the comedian right now. Sig, you just have one name, just like Cher?

SIG: Yes, just Sig, just like Cher.

COSTELLO: Got you. I wanted to ask you this. Well, first of all, is there anything you would not make fun of?

SIG: Absolutely not. As a comedian, it's my job to push the envelope and to make light of things that ordinarily would be tragic.

COSTELLO: Like September 11? Would you make fun of that?

SIG: September 11 -- I can tell you, there are countless comedians -- we didn't actually talk about the victims of September 11, but the surrounding situation around it, like there were a lot of people who are just oblivious to what the World Trade Center is. There are a lot of -- we don't talk about it, but there are a lot of African-American people who don't even leave their own neighborhood, who have never visited the World Trade Center, and they were oblivious to what actually was going on at the time.

MADISON: Wait a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

MADISON: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He just proved my point. He won't make fun of the victims. Well, Rosa Parks was a victim. Isn't it amazing, he said on one hand, we push the envelope on everything. But he won't make fun of the victims. Why? Because there will be a backlash.

COSTELLO: Don't you think timing matters here?

MADISON: Yes. Absolutely. It does.

COSTELLO: It's been a long time.

MADISON: And let me understand something. I love comedians. I love -- I go to comedy store shows. I love them. But you are right. Timing is a factor. Rosa Parks can't defend herself, just like the victims in the World Trade Center can't defend themselves, because it's not funny.

SIG: I don't think that Rosa Parks has to defend herself. I don't think that, you know, Cedric the Entertainer playing the character, I'm certain that he doesn't find any malice with Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson. I mean just because they are icons, we hold them sacred as icons, but that doesn't prevent us from interjecting them into our comedy routines.

COSTELLO: OK, I have to stop you guys right now. One more thing to say about this. Right now, we have to go to Judy Woodruff with a preview of "INSIDE POLITICS."

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. And straight ahead, Sean "P. Diddy" Combs decides politics is hip. He plans a political endorsement.

A Senate showdown in New Jersey. President Bush makes a personal appearance to try to topple an incumbent Democrat.

Al Gore weighs in on Iraq. Plus, political fallout from the German election.

"INSIDE POLITICS" begins at the top of the hour. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the controversy surrounding the movie "Barbershop." We want to go to Ester on the phone. She is from Texas. Ester, you saw the movie. What did you think?

ESTER: Yes, I'm here. I really believe that this movie is not about racism. This is about show biz. I mean, a lot of people did not get offended when comedians joked about Michael Jackson, and there are a lot of actors and actresses that disses God in movies, and no one is offended about that.

COSTELLO: And gentleman, you have to admit, this movie is very popular, and although about 70 percent of the audience has been African-American, 30 percent have not been, and you have to admit that's a good thing. So something about this movie is touching a generation and drawing them into the theaters, no matter the color of their skin.

MADISON: Well, what is drawing them in the theater -- and I'm going to make this point to the credit of the entertainers who were part of that movie -- I understand that the offensive lines we are talking about was not included in the original script. And the comedians on the set were offended, and there was an argument that took place. So to their credit, they did speak out and they didn't like it, but of course they didn't direct it or produce it.

COSTELLO: All right. You have the last word, Joe, thank you very much for being with us today, because we are out of time. Our thanks to Joe Madison and Sig, and thank you too for watching. I'm Carol Costello in for Arthel Neville. I'll be back tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE, and you can see me every morning on "DAYBREAK" from 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on CNN. "INSIDE POLITICS" is coming your way next.

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Leaders Upset Over 'Barbershop'>