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American Morning

Flying High?

Aired September 30, 2002 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Prosecutors are building their case against two America West pilots who are accused of trying to fly and airliner while drunk. The pilots, Thomas Cloyd and Christopher Hughes, have lost their wings. They have been fired by the airline America West. They are expected to appear at a hearing this afternoon in Miami.
And Mark Potter joins us from there.

Good morning, Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

Well, the two former pilots are scheduled to be here at 1:00 eastern Time for a pretrial hearing. There are a number of issues that need to be dealt with before the trial actually begins three weeks from today. There are two defense motions that are particularly interesting. In one, the defense claims that the charge of operating an aircraft while intoxicated should be thrown out on the grounds that the pilots were not actually operating the aircraft at the time that they were stopped, a stop which led to their arrest.

The defense claims that the aircraft was being pushed back by a tug from the terminal. The steering mechanism were locked down and the pilots were not in control.

Now the prosecutors are expected to argue, in effect, that this is ridiculous. That the pilots had prepared the aircraft. They were getting to take off with Phoenix with 124 passengers aboard, and they will remind the judge that in Florida, being behind a wheel of a vehicle, and intoxicated is enough by which to be charged.

Now another motion that will be filed by the defense ask that this case be thrown out of state court and sent to federal court on the ground that most aircraft matters are overseen by the federal government. Another reason the defense would like to do that is that the threshold for intoxication in federal court is a little more lenient. It's better for a defendant than it is in state court. It's Difference between a .10 on a breathalyzer and a .08 in state court, and that 0.2 difference is critical in this case, because both of the former pilots are alleged to have fallen within that range. So it will be harder to prosecute them in federal court. The federal court is expected to argue that state court is exactly where it begins.

So, Paula, a number of issues to be dealt with, and this will all be before Judge David Young in about 4 1/2 hours from now.

Back to you.

ZAHN: Thank you for laying all of this morning. Gives Jeffrey Toobin a lot to talk about.

Mark Potter, thanks for that live report. Let's check in with legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, who's sitting on the sofa for the first time in this brand new place.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I am. I've been in other places, been at the desk, been at the other, but now I'm at the sofa.

ZAHN: Will you still be...

TOOBIN: That's right, I'll try.

ZAHN: Let's talk about a couple of motions the defense is considering. This whole issue of whether the pilots were controlling the plane where they were sitting on the runway.

TOOBIN: I think Mark Potter used an excellent legal term to describe that motion -- ridiculous. They were about to take off. The fact that they got caught before -- that they were flying the plane, I don't think makes a bit of difference.

ZAHN: The judge looking at this says that is ridiculous?

TOOBIN: Yes. That is not going to stop this trial from going forward.

ZAHN: What about the dispute about whether you go with federal standards or state standards when it comes to the breathalyzer test?

TOOBIN: A little less frivolous of a motion. But again, Florida law prohibits not only a car, but an airplane, while drunk. So I think that is probably a loser, too. I think just to look back on this case. What we've really have seen is more like a slow-motion guilty plea than a real move to trial.

This is such a notorious case, and the defense, in fairness, has made arguments that would appeal to a judge in a guilty plea. They have said these pilots are in rehab. They're trying to get their lives together. They're cooperating with the court. They don't want to go to trial on these facts, I don't think.

ZAHN: Do you think they won't end up going to trial here?

TOOBIN: I don't think so?

ZAHN: What kind of a deal could be...

TOOBIN: There problem is, the only real precedent for a case like this, is you have the Northwest pilots several years ago who were arrested actually having flown a plane drunk and they got 14 months in prison. It's a pretty stiff sentence, because this is, after all, a very serious crime. Undoubtedly, what the defense is trying to do is work out some deal that does not involve jail time. But 14 months being the precedent, that is a lot of time to deal with. That's what the defense is going to be struggling with here.

ZAHN: What would be the least amount the prosecution is going to be willing to accept in a plea bargain here?

TOOBIN: I really don't know. I think one of the things the defense is doing is just trying to delay. Emotions were very high about this case when it happened.

ZAHN: The public with outraged.

TOOBIN: And Letterman and Leno were doing their jokes about this every single night. It's starting to fade a little bit, that's good for the defense, but I can't imagine the prosecution here accepting any sort of plea that does not involve jail time. That's what the negotiations are going to be about.

ZAHN: Let's say that they don't reach any kind of compromise. This thing goes to trial. The biggest hurdle for the prosecution, would it not be, if they went with the federal standard of when you were drunk, proving what level they were at?

TOOBIN: That might be a problem. But look at the facts of this case. You have a drunkenness case with a video of the people drinking. At the famous Mr. Mo's restaurant, you have them drinking the equivalent of 30 beers, one martini and one hamburger. Now that's a typical night out for Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Come on, that was a cheap shot. I just woke up over here.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. But he doesn't fly a plane.

ZAHN: He doesn't drive. The guy walks everywhere. It's OK.

TOOBIN: I know. But, I mean, you cannot go before a jury with facts like that. I don't care what the standard is. Any jury on hearing facts like that is going to say, sorry, done, over. That's why I just don't think the defense can bring this case to trial.

ZAHN: Do you have your accurate prediction tie on today?

TOOBIN: It's only for juries, this tie, and it's not this tie anyway.

ZAHN: In closing, you're thinking a plea bargain?

TOOBIN: A plea bargain before this case goes to trial, but probably maybe I'm thinking less than 14 months.

ZAHN: Good of you to drop by. Your brain did not turn to Jello on this comfy couch.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired September 30, 2002 - 08:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Prosecutors are building their case against two America West pilots who are accused of trying to fly and airliner while drunk. The pilots, Thomas Cloyd and Christopher Hughes, have lost their wings. They have been fired by the airline America West. They are expected to appear at a hearing this afternoon in Miami.
And Mark Potter joins us from there.

Good morning, Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

Well, the two former pilots are scheduled to be here at 1:00 eastern Time for a pretrial hearing. There are a number of issues that need to be dealt with before the trial actually begins three weeks from today. There are two defense motions that are particularly interesting. In one, the defense claims that the charge of operating an aircraft while intoxicated should be thrown out on the grounds that the pilots were not actually operating the aircraft at the time that they were stopped, a stop which led to their arrest.

The defense claims that the aircraft was being pushed back by a tug from the terminal. The steering mechanism were locked down and the pilots were not in control.

Now the prosecutors are expected to argue, in effect, that this is ridiculous. That the pilots had prepared the aircraft. They were getting to take off with Phoenix with 124 passengers aboard, and they will remind the judge that in Florida, being behind a wheel of a vehicle, and intoxicated is enough by which to be charged.

Now another motion that will be filed by the defense ask that this case be thrown out of state court and sent to federal court on the ground that most aircraft matters are overseen by the federal government. Another reason the defense would like to do that is that the threshold for intoxication in federal court is a little more lenient. It's better for a defendant than it is in state court. It's Difference between a .10 on a breathalyzer and a .08 in state court, and that 0.2 difference is critical in this case, because both of the former pilots are alleged to have fallen within that range. So it will be harder to prosecute them in federal court. The federal court is expected to argue that state court is exactly where it begins.

So, Paula, a number of issues to be dealt with, and this will all be before Judge David Young in about 4 1/2 hours from now.

Back to you.

ZAHN: Thank you for laying all of this morning. Gives Jeffrey Toobin a lot to talk about.

Mark Potter, thanks for that live report. Let's check in with legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, who's sitting on the sofa for the first time in this brand new place.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I am. I've been in other places, been at the desk, been at the other, but now I'm at the sofa.

ZAHN: Will you still be...

TOOBIN: That's right, I'll try.

ZAHN: Let's talk about a couple of motions the defense is considering. This whole issue of whether the pilots were controlling the plane where they were sitting on the runway.

TOOBIN: I think Mark Potter used an excellent legal term to describe that motion -- ridiculous. They were about to take off. The fact that they got caught before -- that they were flying the plane, I don't think makes a bit of difference.

ZAHN: The judge looking at this says that is ridiculous?

TOOBIN: Yes. That is not going to stop this trial from going forward.

ZAHN: What about the dispute about whether you go with federal standards or state standards when it comes to the breathalyzer test?

TOOBIN: A little less frivolous of a motion. But again, Florida law prohibits not only a car, but an airplane, while drunk. So I think that is probably a loser, too. I think just to look back on this case. What we've really have seen is more like a slow-motion guilty plea than a real move to trial.

This is such a notorious case, and the defense, in fairness, has made arguments that would appeal to a judge in a guilty plea. They have said these pilots are in rehab. They're trying to get their lives together. They're cooperating with the court. They don't want to go to trial on these facts, I don't think.

ZAHN: Do you think they won't end up going to trial here?

TOOBIN: I don't think so?

ZAHN: What kind of a deal could be...

TOOBIN: There problem is, the only real precedent for a case like this, is you have the Northwest pilots several years ago who were arrested actually having flown a plane drunk and they got 14 months in prison. It's a pretty stiff sentence, because this is, after all, a very serious crime. Undoubtedly, what the defense is trying to do is work out some deal that does not involve jail time. But 14 months being the precedent, that is a lot of time to deal with. That's what the defense is going to be struggling with here.

ZAHN: What would be the least amount the prosecution is going to be willing to accept in a plea bargain here?

TOOBIN: I really don't know. I think one of the things the defense is doing is just trying to delay. Emotions were very high about this case when it happened.

ZAHN: The public with outraged.

TOOBIN: And Letterman and Leno were doing their jokes about this every single night. It's starting to fade a little bit, that's good for the defense, but I can't imagine the prosecution here accepting any sort of plea that does not involve jail time. That's what the negotiations are going to be about.

ZAHN: Let's say that they don't reach any kind of compromise. This thing goes to trial. The biggest hurdle for the prosecution, would it not be, if they went with the federal standard of when you were drunk, proving what level they were at?

TOOBIN: That might be a problem. But look at the facts of this case. You have a drunkenness case with a video of the people drinking. At the famous Mr. Mo's restaurant, you have them drinking the equivalent of 30 beers, one martini and one hamburger. Now that's a typical night out for Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Come on, that was a cheap shot. I just woke up over here.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. But he doesn't fly a plane.

ZAHN: He doesn't drive. The guy walks everywhere. It's OK.

TOOBIN: I know. But, I mean, you cannot go before a jury with facts like that. I don't care what the standard is. Any jury on hearing facts like that is going to say, sorry, done, over. That's why I just don't think the defense can bring this case to trial.

ZAHN: Do you have your accurate prediction tie on today?

TOOBIN: It's only for juries, this tie, and it's not this tie anyway.

ZAHN: In closing, you're thinking a plea bargain?

TOOBIN: A plea bargain before this case goes to trial, but probably maybe I'm thinking less than 14 months.

ZAHN: Good of you to drop by. Your brain did not turn to Jello on this comfy couch.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com