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CNN Talkback Live
Talkback Live
Aired October 03, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: And hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
What's it like to be a virtual prisoner held by your father or husband in Saudi Arabia? That's how many American women and children allegedly are living, trapped and banned from ever going home. Critics charge, the Saudi government won't help these Americans out. And some say the United States government isn't doing enough either.
Congressman Dan Burton will join us. He has taken up the banner for American women trying to get their children out of Saudi Arabia. And then stay tuned to meet a mother who was able to get one daughter out, but now worries about two other children left behind.
And then later: Is Dr. Phil McGraw too quick on the draw? Meet a critic who says Dr. Phil's quick fixes make his blood boil.
Are American citizens being held in Saudi Arabia against their will? The Saudi government says no and sent a representative to testify before the House Government Reform Committee today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAN BURTON (R), INDIANA: Do you think they're not holding Americans against their will over there?
MICHAEL PETRUZZELLO, SAUDI REPRESENTATIVE: Mr. Chairman, that is the position that Saudi Arabia has publicly stated. I really don't have anything more to add to that.
BURTON: Do you believe that they're not holding people against their will over there?
PETRUZZELLO: Mr. Chairman, these are very complex legal matters and matters of international law, which I really don't have a full grasp of. So I really can't comment any further on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: The congressman asking the questions is committee chairman, Indiana Representative Dan Burton. He joins us now from Washington.
Welcome, sir.
BURTON: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Who are we talking about? Who is being held and why?
BURTON: Well, you have one young lady that is going to be on later who was being held with her brother and sister against their will. And they suffered a great deal. I'm sure they'll tell you about that.
Children have been kidnapped who were court-ordered to stay with the mother or father here in the United States. The court orders, in many cases, have been forwarded to the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., telling them that those children should not get passports to be taken out of the country by the father or the mother. And the Saudis have received that message, and then they go ahead and issue the passports anyhow.
The children are kidnapped, taken to Saudi Arabia. And the mothers never see them again, rarely talk to them or get any communication whatsoever. And it's like being in a prison.
NEVILLE: So then why aren't the Saudi government officials complying?
BURTON: They're not complying. And if they say they're complying, they're lying to the American people.
The Saudi government is doing almost nothing to help these families who have had children kidnapped, taken away from the parent that is responsible for them, that has custody of them. And they're taken to Saudi Arabia, where the father has complete control. Women in Saudi Arabia, American women cannot go to the bathroom, go to the store without the husband's consent. If they want to come to the United States, the husband has to sign off on it.
If the children want to leave the country and come to the United States, the father or the governing male has to sign off on it. They absolutely have no control over their lives unless the father or the man in charge allows them to do what they want to do.
NEVILLE: Now, how many children are we talking about? And are they being harmed in any way?
BURTON: Oh, yes.
We've talked to mothers and relatives of the children, some who were in close proximity to them, where the children have been tied up and beaten, mistreated, eat their food on the floor, just horrible stories about American women and children who have been mistreated by Saudi men.
And the fact is, many of these women -- I talked to them personally when I was in Saudi Arabia -- were scared to death that they might be killed if they were found talking to American congressmen or going to the American Embassy for help. And one woman told me she would do anything to get herself and her children out of that country. She said: "Put us in a box. Put us in the belly of a plane, anything. Just get us out of here."
And, of course, they can't leave.
NEVILLE: Now, do you think the U.S. government is doing enough to help?
BURTON: I don't believe we have in the past been doing near enough.
Ambassador Mabus, who was before our committee today, at one time had a policy of not allowing visas to the immediate or extended family of people who were involved in kidnappings over there. That was reversed when Ambassador Wyche Fowler took that position in Saudi Arabia. And to this day, or until just recently, if you went to the Saudi Embassy, you couldn't find sanctuary if you were an American citizen.
In fact, we had one case back in 1990 where a mother took her children to the American Embassy and said: "We're American citizens. We want to go home. We have passports." And the embassy officials said, "We observe Saudi law." They had two Marines take the woman to the front gate. She was arrested. The 12-year-old daughter was married off to a Saudi she didn't even know. And that's the kind of problem that we're facing.
Now, the new ambassador over there has indicated that he would never turn away an American citizen who was seeking sanctuary. And that's a step in the right direction. And Secretary of State Powell did help get the young lady you're going to be talking to in a few minutes out of Kuala Lumpur, even though it was a very difficult case.
So we are getting some help, finally, from the State Department under the new secretary of state, Secretary of State Powell. But in the past, they have done very little to help Americans.
NEVILLE: OK, Congressman, if you would, stand by for me.
We're going to take a break right now.
And when we come back, we're going to hear from a mother who is fighting to get two of her children out of Saudi Arabia. And we'll hear from a man who says politicians are not helping the situation at all. We'll ask him what he means by that when we come back.
TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
With us now is Samiah Seramur. She says her former husband has been holding her children illegally in Saudi Arabia since 1994. She is joined by her daughter Maha, a beautiful lady, who managed to escape in August of this year.
And I want to thank both of you for being here.
SAMIAH SERAMUR, CHILDREN LIVING IN SAUDI ARABIA: Thank you for having us.
MAHA AL-REHAILA, ESCAPED FROM SAUDI ARABIA: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Great.
Ms. Seramur, what I would like to do -- unfortunately, I'm short on time here -- but, if you could, briefly tell us your story.
SERAMUR: All right.
Well, my children went to visit their father in Saudi Arabia in approximately 1994. And my husband had said that he was a changed man. And the Saudi Embassy to just allow his visitation and things would change and he would start paying his child support, which is owed now by the Saudi Arabia Airlines.
So, once they went to visit him in Saudi Arabia, my children were never allowed back. All communication was cut off. Telephone calls were cut off until the State Department stepped in, and at least I was allowed telephone conversations. They were all recorded, and only a few a year at the most, up until this summer in June, when some Saudi citizens contacted me about my daughter wanting to get out.
NEVILLE: So you have two daughters over there, or a daughter and a son?
SERAMUR: I have two daughters and a son. And there's one daughter and one son still in Saudi Arabia.
NEVILLE: Right.
Do your children want to come back to the U.S.? Are they saying that they are being held against their will?
SERAMUR: Yes, my children do want to come back.
My son even, he sent me e-mails and everything telling me how he wanted to come home. And those e-mails were forwarded to our U.S. government, the Department of State. And, also, I received information in e-mails about their treatment and that both of them wanted to come home, that they were terrified.
NEVILLE: I'm sorry, they are e-mailing you?
SERAMUR: Yes. Actually, some Saudi citizens arranged so that my daughter Maha could contact me over the Internet. And then the whole family started to talk to me over the Internet. And I have all of those documents saved. And they were pleading to come home to America.
NEVILLE: Are they being harmed in any way?
SERAMUR: Well, my -- all of them are imprisoned.
In Saudi Arabia, they're not free just to go out of the house and do what they want to do. Every time my children asked to go to America, the phones were taken away. They were locked up. They were refused to go to visit friends or anything. And my son is being beaten. He's being tied up. He's locked in his room for extended periods of time. So it's not a good situation at all.
NEVILLE: Why is the father doing that?
SERAMUR: Well, the father has a history of abuse.
The Saudi government did nothing when he raped and impregnated my servants. They were sent home. And he paid some blood money, from what my ex-husband told me. And there was nothing done. So, according to the sharia law, he had done everything that was against sharia law, but the Saudi government said, in order to avoid problems between the Indonesian government and the Saudi government, they preferred to just send them back to Indonesia.
NEVILLE: Maha, let me ask you a question now. How do you feel about your father?
AL-REHAILA: I love him very much. He is my father. I respect him. But he did some stuff that I don't agree with him. And I would like to see my sister and brother very soon. I miss them very much and love them.
NEVILLE: Can you talk to your father?
AL-REHAILA: I don't want to talk to him right now. It won't be good for myself. So I might talk to him in the future. I don't know.
NEVILLE: You don't want to talk to him now because?
AL-REHAILA: It's too difficult for me right now to talk to him.
NEVILLE: Listen, Samiah and Maha, I really appreciate you both joining us here today and sharing your story.
Maha, I understand that's a complicated issue and it's hard for you to answer that question, but I do want to thank both of you for joining us here this afternoon.
SERAMUR: Thank you for having us.
AL-REHAILA: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK.
And we are going to bring in Jean Francois Seznec now. He has worked in Saudi Arabia and lectures on the Mideast at Georgetown and Columbia universities.
Thank you, sir, for joining us.
First, I ask you, are these custody battles are or they kidnappings?
JEAN FRANCOIS SEZNEC, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Well, in my view, they are custody battles. It's very, very difficult situations. Your heart has to go out to these people who are de facto prisoners in Saudi Arabia, in that sense.
However, just to put the picture a little bit in perspective, there are two laws involved here. The American law, of course, gives custody to the mother in this case. But in Saudi Arabia, the law is based on the sharia law, as was mentioned earlier. And that implies that, if there is a divorce, the children will stay with the mother until the age of 7 and will go to the father after the age of 7.
This is based on the hadith, on the law which was passed on to the people by the prophet Muhammad. So, for the Saudis to accept a change in that, they will have to change the word of Muhammad, which is almost impossible.
NEVILLE: But, sir, let me ask you this. If in fact the father, by law, has custody of these children after the age of 7, if the father is physically harming these children, shouldn't that account for something? Does he have the right anymore to have those children?
SEZNEC: The father under law, I would imagine, is not supposed to abuse his children. And that could subject him to a punishment by the Saudi authorities. But, yes, I'm afraid so. I'm afraid under the Saudi law he would have the right to keep the children.
That cannot be changed at all. What can be done, of course, if it is absolute abuse, then he would be arrested and go to jail.
NEVILLE: Yes, but who is going to find out really?
SEZNEC: And the children would stay with the family of the father.
NEVILLE: Congressman Burton, you're still there. Listen, obviously the Saudi government is involved here in these cases. And I ask you, what is the U.S. government doing to get the Saudi government to straighten all of this stuff out?
BURTON: Well, we haven't been doing very much until just recently. Recently Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, helped get the young lady that you saw out of Kuala Lumpur and back to the United States. And the State Department and our ambassador now is allowing sanctuary to any American citizen that comes into the Saudi embassy or the consulate in Jetta.
But the fact of the matter is the Saudi government has been complicitous in kidnapping these children. We had a case in Indiana, which I wish you could have that mother on today, where the court had given custody to the mother. She was concerned when the father wanted to see the children for two weeks in the summer that he would take them to Saudi Arabia and she'd never see them again.
The judge complied with her request to send a notification to the Saudi embassy saying that she did have custody of the children and they were not to let him take them out of the country. So the Saudi embassy was aware of that. The father took the children to the Saudi embassy as soon as he got them, got two passports, and they are now in Saudi Arabia and she hasn't seen them for two years.
NEVILLE: Mr. Seznec, sounds like the Saudi government is quite involved in what seems to be cover-ups.
SEZNEC: I don't disagree with that. I think from their point of view, they would say that the children are Saudi citizens. And from their point of view, that preempts the American citizenship. So it's really a question of interpretation.
I think the Saudis will help their own citizens do what their own citizens think is right. Whether or not we find it right is really a separate issue.
BURTON: But here's the problem. These are American citizens given to their mothers in an American court. They're on American soil.
SEZNEC: That's correct. But if you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) being their own court and their own Saudi law, sir. And I don't disagree with you. Ultimately, I think you're doing a great job to get these people out. But from the Saudi standpoint, they're in Saudi court and under Saudi law.
BURTON: And the Saudis do not recognize American law and that's why we ought to put pressure on them to make some positive changes.
SEZNEC: That's correct. Absolutely.
NEVILLE: And that will be the final word. Congressman Burton, and Jean Francois Seznec, thank you very much for joining me today on TALKBACK LIVE.
And when we come back, a new breast cancer study has some survivors hopping mad and some doctors wondering what to advise their patients. We'll try to get to the bottom of it. TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
For years, we women have been told to make sure we get our mammograms and do self-exams. Not only does it help to catch breast cancer early, it might save your life. Well, hold on to that thought, because now a major study of Chinese women suggests those self-exams may not reduce the death rate from cancer and women shouldn't rely on them alone to detect it.
Let's sort this out right now with Dr. Susan Love, an Adjunct Professor of Surgery at UCLA and Medical Director of the Susan Love MD Breast Cancer Foundation. She's also the author of "Dr. Susan Love's Breast Book" and "Dr. Susan Love's Hormone Book." Hello, Dr. Susan Love. DR. SUSAN LOVE, AUTHOR, "DR. SUSAN LOVE'S BREAST BOOK: Hello. Good to see you.
NEVILLE: Nice to see you.
And also with me in Atlanta is Susan Kolveson. Susan is a breast cancer survivor and Atlanta founder of the Young Survivor's Coalition. Welcome to you as well, Susan.
OK. Dr. Love, I'm going to start with you. Are self-breast exams necessary?
LOVE: Well, the problem is that by the time you can feel a lump or even see it on a mammogram, it's been there eight to ten years. So whether you find it this month or next month during a breast self-exam is not what's going to decide whether you live or die.
And this study just confirmed that. It was a large study and, interestingly, not only was there no life saving advantage, but the women doing breast self-exams tumors weren't any smaller than the women who didn't do breast self-exams. And the women who did breast self-exams ended up having a lot of extra biopsies for benign things that they found because they were paying so much attention.
NEVILLE: Susan Kolveson, how do you see this -- what do you think about self-breast exams?
SUSAN KOLVESON, YOUNG SURVIVORS COALITION: Well, first I'd like to say that I found my lump myself. And I understand that my story is only anecdotal evidence, but if I hadn't found it myself, I probably wouldn't be here. I'd be dead by now.
And I'm just having a problem understanding exactly why breast self-exam is being touted as negative. Personally, I feel there is a benefit, but even if there isn't, why is it a bad thing? And I think women are get the wrong message.
NEVILLE: You see and that's precisely the case, Dr. Love. I mean we're told self-exams don't necessarily detect early stages of breast cancer, mammograms don't reduce the risk of dying from breast cancer. We're told do the self-exams, we're told get the mammograms. We're told, no, wait, don't do it.
It's confusing. What's a woman to do?
LOVE: Well, there's a couple of things. First of all, most women find their own cancers, 80 percent. But they're not doing breast self-exams, you know the way it is on the shower cards. They're rolling over in bed, they're in the shower, something hurts and they poke around.
So, indeed, nobody is saying never touch your breasts again. What we're saying is we shouldn't rely on breast self-exam as a screening test to find breast cancers early. And the real risk is that it gets in the way of our finding something that works better. You know we start thinking we've got something and we pass out shower cards and we spend a lot of money on it. And we should be spending it on research so that we'll find not lumps, but cells that are just thinking about being cancer someday when they grow up.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I have Pam (ph) here from Georgia. What do you say, Pam (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I found my lump as well. And before I was 35 I had three cysts removed. They were all benign. And in 1999, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, had to have a double mastectomy.
So I think if women don't do breast examinations on themselves, they're less apt to go and get the mammograms and the ultrasounds. And that's why I am for doing self-examinations.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
OK, Dr. Love. So, again, what's the final answer here?
LOVE: Well you know the answer is, as I said, not don't touch your breasts. The answer is really a public policy answer. It's that we shouldn't be spending a lot of money and energy on educating everybody about breast self-exam and passing out pamphlets. We should spend the money on finding something that's better.
Should women do it? If they're comfortable doing it, that's fine; if they don't want to do it, that's also fine.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, Susan, I want to hear some final thoughts from you.
KOLVESON: I just have a couple of questions for Dr. Love. Number one, as a young survivor for whom mammograms and the current methods of detection serve little if any use, what are we supposed to do, just wait to die until you find a better method, number one?
And, number two, I've heard many times that this is a public health concern, as far as allocating funds go, and I accept that. But I also would really like to know how much money we're talking about. And if we don't have a better detection method right now, I'm still having a hard time understanding why there's anything negative being said about breast self-exams in the general community. The scientific community can talk about it amongst themselves.
NEVILLE: I'm going to let Dr. Love answer now because we're short on time.
LOVE: The answer is, again, you would have found your lump even if you weren't doing breast self-exam. Young women find their lumps all the time that don't do breast self-exam. What we're talking about is the formal, you know, whole song and dance.
There is no value to really pushing that. And the reason we don't have a better tool is because we've spent all our energy on breast self-exam. So if we could get angry enough to get something that works with young women, we would do better.
NEVILLE: OK. Dr. Love and Susan Kolveson, thank you very much for joining me here on TALKBACK LIVE today. I hope someone at home watching got some good information.
And when we come back: Where do you go for advice? Not just TALKBACK LIVE. If you're listening to Dr. Phil, and other TV doctors, you won't want to miss our next segment. Our next guest warns about the dangers of quick-fix therapy. We'll talk about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Would you take advice from a media pop therapist? Well, a lot of people do from Dr. Laura, Dr. Ruth, Dr. Brothers and now from one of the country's hottest dispensers, Dr. Phil McGraw. He's dishing out his own brand of reality therapy on "The Dr. Phil Show," which went on the air last month. Here's a sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "THE DR. PHIL SHOW": What do you want from me today? Do you want me to kind of pat your hand and tell you everything's going to be OK or do you want the truth?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I want the truth.
MCGRAW: Because I'm a strong believer that if someone has a lot of momentum in their life, it takes something dramatic to change it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right. Well, while millions are wild about Dr. Phil, some in the mental health business can't stand him. In fact, I want you to meet someone who says Dr. Phil makes his blood boil.
Steven Berglas is a clinical psychologist and former instructor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and author of "Reclaiming the Fire: How Successful People Overcome Burnout." He wrote a critique of "The Dr. Phil Show" today, and his method in "USA Today".
OK. We're going to talk to you in a second.
Also with us is Robert Butterworth, a Los Angeles child trauma psychologist. And we want to welcome both of you.
OK. Dr. Berglas, what's your beef with Dr. Phil?
DR. STEVEN BERGLAS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I did point out in the article I have no beef with Dr. Phil personally. And the anger was not really there. I'm very, very concerned, however, that the use of the honorific doctor as you did with me and, interestingly, in your last segment, you had two Susans on. One was a Dr. Susan and the other was just a Susan. And there's an authoritative tone that doctors use that I think can be misleading and dangerous. If you heard Dr. Phil in that segment -- and it's a particularly interesting one -- he said, "Do you want to know the truth?" I'm Dr. Phil and I'm going to tell you the truth.
And Susan, who was with Dr. Susan Love, couldn't give you the truth in those terms. The problem with this is, quite frankly, that without diagnosis, without understanding an individual and without really understanding the problem, I think saying, "Do you want the truth? I've got the truth," is a dangerous thing.
And in general, which was the point of my article, the honorific doctor on the media leads to the expectation that healing will take place if you listen to the doctor's advice. And that's very, very dangerous, particularly given the nature of individuals who will come forth for media therapy.
NEVILLE: OK, I understand your point. But here's a different way of looking at it. Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura, Dr. Ruth, all of these people suddenly are kind of taking the taboo aspect of psychiatry, psychology away from the whole idea. I mean a lot of people, they open up, they get a lot of regular people to open up to them.
BERGLAS: But that's very wrong. You see the point of my article and what I emphasized was that that isn't how therapy works. I said at the end of my piece very directly, if you want to understand how therapy works, watch "The Sopranos." The unpredictable, the tension- ridden, the conflict-ridden relationship that Tony Soprano has with the Dr Melfi (ph)...
NEVILLE: He has that with everybody.
BERGLAS: Well, right. But this is the way therapy works. Most therapy does not involve walking into a guru, sitting down, getting a directive and feeling better and having that change your life. Would, that it were possible, I think everyone would be happy. But, unfortunately, therapeutic change is a struggle. I'm concerned that people are going to believe that it's a one-shot deal.
NEVILLE: I am so tight on time today I have to get Dr. Butterworth in there. Excuse me. Go ahead, doctor.
DR. ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: Arthel, I'm really excited that we're talking about psychological problems on national TV. You know most people won't get three miles near a shrink because they, my god, to go to a therapist I must be crazy.
And when you hear about real people talking about real problems -- and, sure, sometimes Dr. Phil is a little hokey, but what do you expect? He's from Texas.
NEVILLE: Hey, don't talk about Texas. You don't mess with Texas. I went to the University of Texas.
And on that note, we're back after this break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about therapy, new millennium style, dispensing relationship advice over the airwaves.
OK. Dr. Berglas, Dr. Phil has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. But are you concerned that some people giving out advice over the media lack formal training?
BERGLAS: Well, several do. I mean, Dr. Laura doesn't have a clinical degree. She's never been certified to work with patients. Dr. Ruth has a Ph.D.; I believe it's in sociology, or at least it's not in a clinical field.
And one of the things that happens is you get people with self- defeating disorders, people who are in repetitively bad relationships. And self-defeating behavior is an incredibly complex phenomenon. I don't believe that directing people with complex disorders to change their behavior will work.
Again, most alcoholics know that they'll suffer as a consequence of drinking but go right ahead and drink, according to research data. My concern really is that Dr. Phil be understood as an individual with very good advice, but that does not in any sense equate to therapeutic change.
NEVILLE: So then Dr. Butterworth, is it really therapy or just good old-fashioned common sense advice?
BUTTERWORTH: Well you know we talk about therapeutic change and we talk about how much time it takes, but the average person, even if they can afford to go to a therapist under managed care, most people just get ten sessions. And if you think Tony Soprano is in the sessions for months and months probably because he's in the Mafia, he's the only one who can afford it.
But for the average person, therapy is directed, it isn't long term and isn't like non-encompassing. So, in a sense, a therapist and Dr. Phil may be giving specific problem-solving directed instructions only because most managed care that's all you're allowed to do. So it's like real life on TV in the doctor's office.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I have to take a break. But we'll continue this discussion after the break. So don't go anywhere. A little bit more on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about Dr. Phil, Dr. Judy, Dr. Ruth.
Barbara (ph), you are an industrial psychologist and you say what? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, in terms of giving advice and being an advice giver, that's probably what Dr. Phil is doing. But as a psychologist, even in the most directive therapy, he is not giving true therapy. And what he's doing violates the codes of the American Psychological Association.
NEVILLE: Well, thank you for standing up.
I'm running out of time here. First of all, let me ask you a question, where did you go to undergrad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Texas A&M.
NEVILLE: And I graduated from the University of Texas. Too bad for you, unfortunately.
What did you say, Dr. Butterworth?
BUTTERWORTH: Arthel, I'm going to start hiding under my chair after that remark.
NEVILLE: All right. Listen, we are out of time. Thank you Dr. Steve Berglas, Dr. Robert Butterworth. Thank you for joining us today. I'm Arthel Neville. That's it for TALKBACK LIVE today. Tune in tomorrow for all of our free for all action.
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Aired October 3, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: And hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
What's it like to be a virtual prisoner held by your father or husband in Saudi Arabia? That's how many American women and children allegedly are living, trapped and banned from ever going home. Critics charge, the Saudi government won't help these Americans out. And some say the United States government isn't doing enough either.
Congressman Dan Burton will join us. He has taken up the banner for American women trying to get their children out of Saudi Arabia. And then stay tuned to meet a mother who was able to get one daughter out, but now worries about two other children left behind.
And then later: Is Dr. Phil McGraw too quick on the draw? Meet a critic who says Dr. Phil's quick fixes make his blood boil.
Are American citizens being held in Saudi Arabia against their will? The Saudi government says no and sent a representative to testify before the House Government Reform Committee today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAN BURTON (R), INDIANA: Do you think they're not holding Americans against their will over there?
MICHAEL PETRUZZELLO, SAUDI REPRESENTATIVE: Mr. Chairman, that is the position that Saudi Arabia has publicly stated. I really don't have anything more to add to that.
BURTON: Do you believe that they're not holding people against their will over there?
PETRUZZELLO: Mr. Chairman, these are very complex legal matters and matters of international law, which I really don't have a full grasp of. So I really can't comment any further on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: The congressman asking the questions is committee chairman, Indiana Representative Dan Burton. He joins us now from Washington.
Welcome, sir.
BURTON: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Who are we talking about? Who is being held and why?
BURTON: Well, you have one young lady that is going to be on later who was being held with her brother and sister against their will. And they suffered a great deal. I'm sure they'll tell you about that.
Children have been kidnapped who were court-ordered to stay with the mother or father here in the United States. The court orders, in many cases, have been forwarded to the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., telling them that those children should not get passports to be taken out of the country by the father or the mother. And the Saudis have received that message, and then they go ahead and issue the passports anyhow.
The children are kidnapped, taken to Saudi Arabia. And the mothers never see them again, rarely talk to them or get any communication whatsoever. And it's like being in a prison.
NEVILLE: So then why aren't the Saudi government officials complying?
BURTON: They're not complying. And if they say they're complying, they're lying to the American people.
The Saudi government is doing almost nothing to help these families who have had children kidnapped, taken away from the parent that is responsible for them, that has custody of them. And they're taken to Saudi Arabia, where the father has complete control. Women in Saudi Arabia, American women cannot go to the bathroom, go to the store without the husband's consent. If they want to come to the United States, the husband has to sign off on it.
If the children want to leave the country and come to the United States, the father or the governing male has to sign off on it. They absolutely have no control over their lives unless the father or the man in charge allows them to do what they want to do.
NEVILLE: Now, how many children are we talking about? And are they being harmed in any way?
BURTON: Oh, yes.
We've talked to mothers and relatives of the children, some who were in close proximity to them, where the children have been tied up and beaten, mistreated, eat their food on the floor, just horrible stories about American women and children who have been mistreated by Saudi men.
And the fact is, many of these women -- I talked to them personally when I was in Saudi Arabia -- were scared to death that they might be killed if they were found talking to American congressmen or going to the American Embassy for help. And one woman told me she would do anything to get herself and her children out of that country. She said: "Put us in a box. Put us in the belly of a plane, anything. Just get us out of here."
And, of course, they can't leave.
NEVILLE: Now, do you think the U.S. government is doing enough to help?
BURTON: I don't believe we have in the past been doing near enough.
Ambassador Mabus, who was before our committee today, at one time had a policy of not allowing visas to the immediate or extended family of people who were involved in kidnappings over there. That was reversed when Ambassador Wyche Fowler took that position in Saudi Arabia. And to this day, or until just recently, if you went to the Saudi Embassy, you couldn't find sanctuary if you were an American citizen.
In fact, we had one case back in 1990 where a mother took her children to the American Embassy and said: "We're American citizens. We want to go home. We have passports." And the embassy officials said, "We observe Saudi law." They had two Marines take the woman to the front gate. She was arrested. The 12-year-old daughter was married off to a Saudi she didn't even know. And that's the kind of problem that we're facing.
Now, the new ambassador over there has indicated that he would never turn away an American citizen who was seeking sanctuary. And that's a step in the right direction. And Secretary of State Powell did help get the young lady you're going to be talking to in a few minutes out of Kuala Lumpur, even though it was a very difficult case.
So we are getting some help, finally, from the State Department under the new secretary of state, Secretary of State Powell. But in the past, they have done very little to help Americans.
NEVILLE: OK, Congressman, if you would, stand by for me.
We're going to take a break right now.
And when we come back, we're going to hear from a mother who is fighting to get two of her children out of Saudi Arabia. And we'll hear from a man who says politicians are not helping the situation at all. We'll ask him what he means by that when we come back.
TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
With us now is Samiah Seramur. She says her former husband has been holding her children illegally in Saudi Arabia since 1994. She is joined by her daughter Maha, a beautiful lady, who managed to escape in August of this year.
And I want to thank both of you for being here.
SAMIAH SERAMUR, CHILDREN LIVING IN SAUDI ARABIA: Thank you for having us.
MAHA AL-REHAILA, ESCAPED FROM SAUDI ARABIA: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Great.
Ms. Seramur, what I would like to do -- unfortunately, I'm short on time here -- but, if you could, briefly tell us your story.
SERAMUR: All right.
Well, my children went to visit their father in Saudi Arabia in approximately 1994. And my husband had said that he was a changed man. And the Saudi Embassy to just allow his visitation and things would change and he would start paying his child support, which is owed now by the Saudi Arabia Airlines.
So, once they went to visit him in Saudi Arabia, my children were never allowed back. All communication was cut off. Telephone calls were cut off until the State Department stepped in, and at least I was allowed telephone conversations. They were all recorded, and only a few a year at the most, up until this summer in June, when some Saudi citizens contacted me about my daughter wanting to get out.
NEVILLE: So you have two daughters over there, or a daughter and a son?
SERAMUR: I have two daughters and a son. And there's one daughter and one son still in Saudi Arabia.
NEVILLE: Right.
Do your children want to come back to the U.S.? Are they saying that they are being held against their will?
SERAMUR: Yes, my children do want to come back.
My son even, he sent me e-mails and everything telling me how he wanted to come home. And those e-mails were forwarded to our U.S. government, the Department of State. And, also, I received information in e-mails about their treatment and that both of them wanted to come home, that they were terrified.
NEVILLE: I'm sorry, they are e-mailing you?
SERAMUR: Yes. Actually, some Saudi citizens arranged so that my daughter Maha could contact me over the Internet. And then the whole family started to talk to me over the Internet. And I have all of those documents saved. And they were pleading to come home to America.
NEVILLE: Are they being harmed in any way?
SERAMUR: Well, my -- all of them are imprisoned.
In Saudi Arabia, they're not free just to go out of the house and do what they want to do. Every time my children asked to go to America, the phones were taken away. They were locked up. They were refused to go to visit friends or anything. And my son is being beaten. He's being tied up. He's locked in his room for extended periods of time. So it's not a good situation at all.
NEVILLE: Why is the father doing that?
SERAMUR: Well, the father has a history of abuse.
The Saudi government did nothing when he raped and impregnated my servants. They were sent home. And he paid some blood money, from what my ex-husband told me. And there was nothing done. So, according to the sharia law, he had done everything that was against sharia law, but the Saudi government said, in order to avoid problems between the Indonesian government and the Saudi government, they preferred to just send them back to Indonesia.
NEVILLE: Maha, let me ask you a question now. How do you feel about your father?
AL-REHAILA: I love him very much. He is my father. I respect him. But he did some stuff that I don't agree with him. And I would like to see my sister and brother very soon. I miss them very much and love them.
NEVILLE: Can you talk to your father?
AL-REHAILA: I don't want to talk to him right now. It won't be good for myself. So I might talk to him in the future. I don't know.
NEVILLE: You don't want to talk to him now because?
AL-REHAILA: It's too difficult for me right now to talk to him.
NEVILLE: Listen, Samiah and Maha, I really appreciate you both joining us here today and sharing your story.
Maha, I understand that's a complicated issue and it's hard for you to answer that question, but I do want to thank both of you for joining us here this afternoon.
SERAMUR: Thank you for having us.
AL-REHAILA: Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK.
And we are going to bring in Jean Francois Seznec now. He has worked in Saudi Arabia and lectures on the Mideast at Georgetown and Columbia universities.
Thank you, sir, for joining us.
First, I ask you, are these custody battles are or they kidnappings?
JEAN FRANCOIS SEZNEC, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Well, in my view, they are custody battles. It's very, very difficult situations. Your heart has to go out to these people who are de facto prisoners in Saudi Arabia, in that sense.
However, just to put the picture a little bit in perspective, there are two laws involved here. The American law, of course, gives custody to the mother in this case. But in Saudi Arabia, the law is based on the sharia law, as was mentioned earlier. And that implies that, if there is a divorce, the children will stay with the mother until the age of 7 and will go to the father after the age of 7.
This is based on the hadith, on the law which was passed on to the people by the prophet Muhammad. So, for the Saudis to accept a change in that, they will have to change the word of Muhammad, which is almost impossible.
NEVILLE: But, sir, let me ask you this. If in fact the father, by law, has custody of these children after the age of 7, if the father is physically harming these children, shouldn't that account for something? Does he have the right anymore to have those children?
SEZNEC: The father under law, I would imagine, is not supposed to abuse his children. And that could subject him to a punishment by the Saudi authorities. But, yes, I'm afraid so. I'm afraid under the Saudi law he would have the right to keep the children.
That cannot be changed at all. What can be done, of course, if it is absolute abuse, then he would be arrested and go to jail.
NEVILLE: Yes, but who is going to find out really?
SEZNEC: And the children would stay with the family of the father.
NEVILLE: Congressman Burton, you're still there. Listen, obviously the Saudi government is involved here in these cases. And I ask you, what is the U.S. government doing to get the Saudi government to straighten all of this stuff out?
BURTON: Well, we haven't been doing very much until just recently. Recently Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, helped get the young lady that you saw out of Kuala Lumpur and back to the United States. And the State Department and our ambassador now is allowing sanctuary to any American citizen that comes into the Saudi embassy or the consulate in Jetta.
But the fact of the matter is the Saudi government has been complicitous in kidnapping these children. We had a case in Indiana, which I wish you could have that mother on today, where the court had given custody to the mother. She was concerned when the father wanted to see the children for two weeks in the summer that he would take them to Saudi Arabia and she'd never see them again.
The judge complied with her request to send a notification to the Saudi embassy saying that she did have custody of the children and they were not to let him take them out of the country. So the Saudi embassy was aware of that. The father took the children to the Saudi embassy as soon as he got them, got two passports, and they are now in Saudi Arabia and she hasn't seen them for two years.
NEVILLE: Mr. Seznec, sounds like the Saudi government is quite involved in what seems to be cover-ups.
SEZNEC: I don't disagree with that. I think from their point of view, they would say that the children are Saudi citizens. And from their point of view, that preempts the American citizenship. So it's really a question of interpretation.
I think the Saudis will help their own citizens do what their own citizens think is right. Whether or not we find it right is really a separate issue.
BURTON: But here's the problem. These are American citizens given to their mothers in an American court. They're on American soil.
SEZNEC: That's correct. But if you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) being their own court and their own Saudi law, sir. And I don't disagree with you. Ultimately, I think you're doing a great job to get these people out. But from the Saudi standpoint, they're in Saudi court and under Saudi law.
BURTON: And the Saudis do not recognize American law and that's why we ought to put pressure on them to make some positive changes.
SEZNEC: That's correct. Absolutely.
NEVILLE: And that will be the final word. Congressman Burton, and Jean Francois Seznec, thank you very much for joining me today on TALKBACK LIVE.
And when we come back, a new breast cancer study has some survivors hopping mad and some doctors wondering what to advise their patients. We'll try to get to the bottom of it. TALKBACK LIVE continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
For years, we women have been told to make sure we get our mammograms and do self-exams. Not only does it help to catch breast cancer early, it might save your life. Well, hold on to that thought, because now a major study of Chinese women suggests those self-exams may not reduce the death rate from cancer and women shouldn't rely on them alone to detect it.
Let's sort this out right now with Dr. Susan Love, an Adjunct Professor of Surgery at UCLA and Medical Director of the Susan Love MD Breast Cancer Foundation. She's also the author of "Dr. Susan Love's Breast Book" and "Dr. Susan Love's Hormone Book." Hello, Dr. Susan Love. DR. SUSAN LOVE, AUTHOR, "DR. SUSAN LOVE'S BREAST BOOK: Hello. Good to see you.
NEVILLE: Nice to see you.
And also with me in Atlanta is Susan Kolveson. Susan is a breast cancer survivor and Atlanta founder of the Young Survivor's Coalition. Welcome to you as well, Susan.
OK. Dr. Love, I'm going to start with you. Are self-breast exams necessary?
LOVE: Well, the problem is that by the time you can feel a lump or even see it on a mammogram, it's been there eight to ten years. So whether you find it this month or next month during a breast self-exam is not what's going to decide whether you live or die.
And this study just confirmed that. It was a large study and, interestingly, not only was there no life saving advantage, but the women doing breast self-exams tumors weren't any smaller than the women who didn't do breast self-exams. And the women who did breast self-exams ended up having a lot of extra biopsies for benign things that they found because they were paying so much attention.
NEVILLE: Susan Kolveson, how do you see this -- what do you think about self-breast exams?
SUSAN KOLVESON, YOUNG SURVIVORS COALITION: Well, first I'd like to say that I found my lump myself. And I understand that my story is only anecdotal evidence, but if I hadn't found it myself, I probably wouldn't be here. I'd be dead by now.
And I'm just having a problem understanding exactly why breast self-exam is being touted as negative. Personally, I feel there is a benefit, but even if there isn't, why is it a bad thing? And I think women are get the wrong message.
NEVILLE: You see and that's precisely the case, Dr. Love. I mean we're told self-exams don't necessarily detect early stages of breast cancer, mammograms don't reduce the risk of dying from breast cancer. We're told do the self-exams, we're told get the mammograms. We're told, no, wait, don't do it.
It's confusing. What's a woman to do?
LOVE: Well, there's a couple of things. First of all, most women find their own cancers, 80 percent. But they're not doing breast self-exams, you know the way it is on the shower cards. They're rolling over in bed, they're in the shower, something hurts and they poke around.
So, indeed, nobody is saying never touch your breasts again. What we're saying is we shouldn't rely on breast self-exam as a screening test to find breast cancers early. And the real risk is that it gets in the way of our finding something that works better. You know we start thinking we've got something and we pass out shower cards and we spend a lot of money on it. And we should be spending it on research so that we'll find not lumps, but cells that are just thinking about being cancer someday when they grow up.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I have Pam (ph) here from Georgia. What do you say, Pam (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I found my lump as well. And before I was 35 I had three cysts removed. They were all benign. And in 1999, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, had to have a double mastectomy.
So I think if women don't do breast examinations on themselves, they're less apt to go and get the mammograms and the ultrasounds. And that's why I am for doing self-examinations.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
OK, Dr. Love. So, again, what's the final answer here?
LOVE: Well you know the answer is, as I said, not don't touch your breasts. The answer is really a public policy answer. It's that we shouldn't be spending a lot of money and energy on educating everybody about breast self-exam and passing out pamphlets. We should spend the money on finding something that's better.
Should women do it? If they're comfortable doing it, that's fine; if they don't want to do it, that's also fine.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, Susan, I want to hear some final thoughts from you.
KOLVESON: I just have a couple of questions for Dr. Love. Number one, as a young survivor for whom mammograms and the current methods of detection serve little if any use, what are we supposed to do, just wait to die until you find a better method, number one?
And, number two, I've heard many times that this is a public health concern, as far as allocating funds go, and I accept that. But I also would really like to know how much money we're talking about. And if we don't have a better detection method right now, I'm still having a hard time understanding why there's anything negative being said about breast self-exams in the general community. The scientific community can talk about it amongst themselves.
NEVILLE: I'm going to let Dr. Love answer now because we're short on time.
LOVE: The answer is, again, you would have found your lump even if you weren't doing breast self-exam. Young women find their lumps all the time that don't do breast self-exam. What we're talking about is the formal, you know, whole song and dance.
There is no value to really pushing that. And the reason we don't have a better tool is because we've spent all our energy on breast self-exam. So if we could get angry enough to get something that works with young women, we would do better.
NEVILLE: OK. Dr. Love and Susan Kolveson, thank you very much for joining me here on TALKBACK LIVE today. I hope someone at home watching got some good information.
And when we come back: Where do you go for advice? Not just TALKBACK LIVE. If you're listening to Dr. Phil, and other TV doctors, you won't want to miss our next segment. Our next guest warns about the dangers of quick-fix therapy. We'll talk about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Would you take advice from a media pop therapist? Well, a lot of people do from Dr. Laura, Dr. Ruth, Dr. Brothers and now from one of the country's hottest dispensers, Dr. Phil McGraw. He's dishing out his own brand of reality therapy on "The Dr. Phil Show," which went on the air last month. Here's a sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "THE DR. PHIL SHOW": What do you want from me today? Do you want me to kind of pat your hand and tell you everything's going to be OK or do you want the truth?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I want the truth.
MCGRAW: Because I'm a strong believer that if someone has a lot of momentum in their life, it takes something dramatic to change it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right. Well, while millions are wild about Dr. Phil, some in the mental health business can't stand him. In fact, I want you to meet someone who says Dr. Phil makes his blood boil.
Steven Berglas is a clinical psychologist and former instructor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and author of "Reclaiming the Fire: How Successful People Overcome Burnout." He wrote a critique of "The Dr. Phil Show" today, and his method in "USA Today".
OK. We're going to talk to you in a second.
Also with us is Robert Butterworth, a Los Angeles child trauma psychologist. And we want to welcome both of you.
OK. Dr. Berglas, what's your beef with Dr. Phil?
DR. STEVEN BERGLAS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I did point out in the article I have no beef with Dr. Phil personally. And the anger was not really there. I'm very, very concerned, however, that the use of the honorific doctor as you did with me and, interestingly, in your last segment, you had two Susans on. One was a Dr. Susan and the other was just a Susan. And there's an authoritative tone that doctors use that I think can be misleading and dangerous. If you heard Dr. Phil in that segment -- and it's a particularly interesting one -- he said, "Do you want to know the truth?" I'm Dr. Phil and I'm going to tell you the truth.
And Susan, who was with Dr. Susan Love, couldn't give you the truth in those terms. The problem with this is, quite frankly, that without diagnosis, without understanding an individual and without really understanding the problem, I think saying, "Do you want the truth? I've got the truth," is a dangerous thing.
And in general, which was the point of my article, the honorific doctor on the media leads to the expectation that healing will take place if you listen to the doctor's advice. And that's very, very dangerous, particularly given the nature of individuals who will come forth for media therapy.
NEVILLE: OK, I understand your point. But here's a different way of looking at it. Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura, Dr. Ruth, all of these people suddenly are kind of taking the taboo aspect of psychiatry, psychology away from the whole idea. I mean a lot of people, they open up, they get a lot of regular people to open up to them.
BERGLAS: But that's very wrong. You see the point of my article and what I emphasized was that that isn't how therapy works. I said at the end of my piece very directly, if you want to understand how therapy works, watch "The Sopranos." The unpredictable, the tension- ridden, the conflict-ridden relationship that Tony Soprano has with the Dr Melfi (ph)...
NEVILLE: He has that with everybody.
BERGLAS: Well, right. But this is the way therapy works. Most therapy does not involve walking into a guru, sitting down, getting a directive and feeling better and having that change your life. Would, that it were possible, I think everyone would be happy. But, unfortunately, therapeutic change is a struggle. I'm concerned that people are going to believe that it's a one-shot deal.
NEVILLE: I am so tight on time today I have to get Dr. Butterworth in there. Excuse me. Go ahead, doctor.
DR. ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: Arthel, I'm really excited that we're talking about psychological problems on national TV. You know most people won't get three miles near a shrink because they, my god, to go to a therapist I must be crazy.
And when you hear about real people talking about real problems -- and, sure, sometimes Dr. Phil is a little hokey, but what do you expect? He's from Texas.
NEVILLE: Hey, don't talk about Texas. You don't mess with Texas. I went to the University of Texas.
And on that note, we're back after this break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about therapy, new millennium style, dispensing relationship advice over the airwaves.
OK. Dr. Berglas, Dr. Phil has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. But are you concerned that some people giving out advice over the media lack formal training?
BERGLAS: Well, several do. I mean, Dr. Laura doesn't have a clinical degree. She's never been certified to work with patients. Dr. Ruth has a Ph.D.; I believe it's in sociology, or at least it's not in a clinical field.
And one of the things that happens is you get people with self- defeating disorders, people who are in repetitively bad relationships. And self-defeating behavior is an incredibly complex phenomenon. I don't believe that directing people with complex disorders to change their behavior will work.
Again, most alcoholics know that they'll suffer as a consequence of drinking but go right ahead and drink, according to research data. My concern really is that Dr. Phil be understood as an individual with very good advice, but that does not in any sense equate to therapeutic change.
NEVILLE: So then Dr. Butterworth, is it really therapy or just good old-fashioned common sense advice?
BUTTERWORTH: Well you know we talk about therapeutic change and we talk about how much time it takes, but the average person, even if they can afford to go to a therapist under managed care, most people just get ten sessions. And if you think Tony Soprano is in the sessions for months and months probably because he's in the Mafia, he's the only one who can afford it.
But for the average person, therapy is directed, it isn't long term and isn't like non-encompassing. So, in a sense, a therapist and Dr. Phil may be giving specific problem-solving directed instructions only because most managed care that's all you're allowed to do. So it's like real life on TV in the doctor's office.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I have to take a break. But we'll continue this discussion after the break. So don't go anywhere. A little bit more on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everybody.
We're talking about Dr. Phil, Dr. Judy, Dr. Ruth.
Barbara (ph), you are an industrial psychologist and you say what? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, in terms of giving advice and being an advice giver, that's probably what Dr. Phil is doing. But as a psychologist, even in the most directive therapy, he is not giving true therapy. And what he's doing violates the codes of the American Psychological Association.
NEVILLE: Well, thank you for standing up.
I'm running out of time here. First of all, let me ask you a question, where did you go to undergrad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Texas A&M.
NEVILLE: And I graduated from the University of Texas. Too bad for you, unfortunately.
What did you say, Dr. Butterworth?
BUTTERWORTH: Arthel, I'm going to start hiding under my chair after that remark.
NEVILLE: All right. Listen, we are out of time. Thank you Dr. Steve Berglas, Dr. Robert Butterworth. Thank you for joining us today. I'm Arthel Neville. That's it for TALKBACK LIVE today. Tune in tomorrow for all of our free for all action.
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