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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Search for a Serial Sniper; Uncensored Look at `Saturday Night Live'

Aired October 10, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Paula Zahn, filling in for Connie Chung.
Tonight: The hunt goes on. Has the serial sniper struck again?

ANNOUNCER: The search for a serial sniper. Tonight, we'll revisit one of the most notorious serial murder cases of our time, Son of Sam, and talk with one man who knows what it takes to catch a killer.

Have you ever noticed how often Andy Rooney's comments land him in hot water?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY ROONEY: A woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the women on the sidelines take the field and respond.

Wise guys unwelcome: why an invite to a Columbus Day parade has got the organizers fuming mad.

They've kept America laughing for almost 30 years. Tonight: an uncensored look back behind the scenes of "Saturday Night Live."

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Paula Zahn.

ZAHN: Good evening.

Tonight, amid concern that the latest shooting was the work of the serial sniper, the search and the fear goes on in and around Washington, D.C. A little bit later, we'll look at a high-profile case with distinct similarities that was solved, at least in part, because the shooter finally slipped up.

But first, CNN's Kathleen Koch is on the story with the latest on the case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the news authorities had feared, but expected. The sniper had shot his ninth victim, his seventh murder in over a week.

CHARLIE DEANE, PRINCE WILLIAM COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: The ballistic evidence has concluded that these cases are linked.

KOCH: Police Thursday collected evidence at the Manassas, Virginia, Sunoco station where a man was gunned down by a single shot Wednesday night while filling his car with gas. It's the third sniper shooting at a gas station. Police have some useful witnesses and more clues are coming from area surveillance cameras.

QUESTION: Surveillance video, have you seen anything on there that can help?

DEANE: We are working on those as leads, but we would not discuss what that might reveal.

KOCH: Meanwhile, more developments in Maryland in the Monday shooting at a middle school: The tarot calling card that may or may not have been left by the killer has more than a grim statement to police. Besides the words, "Mister Policeman, I am God," a highly placed source close to the investigation says there was writing warning police not to make the message or the existence of the card public.

Police believe the sniper may have been trying to make contact and had hoped to establish a rapport with the killer. Experts say the instructions are revealing.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: He doesn't want to think he's on par with them. He wants to think he's above them and controlling them. But he wants to start some kind of communication, so he can have fun with this.

KOCH: Meanwhile, as police struggle with an investigation that now spans four counties and the District of Columbia, they have set up a new centralized tip line run by the FBI for all the shootings. Montgomery County's police chief was asked if the federal government should take over the case.

CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: It really doesn't matter to myself or Mr. Duncan who runs the investigation. We would like to find the person or the people responsible for this, arrest them, indict them, and get a conviction.

KOCH (on camera): Tips in the case and reward money continue to pour in. Police say they're making progress, but the sniper killings continue.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, Montgomery County, Maryland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we are now joined by Montgomery County State's Attorney Doug Gansler from Rockville, Maryland, tonight.

Welcome, sir. Glad to have you with us. DOUGLAS GANSLER, MONTGOMERY COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Good to be here.

ZAHN: We know your office is working alongside law enforcement already. What kind of evidence do you have built up against the sniper?

GANSLER: We have some physical evidence. And with each and every one of the shootings, we accumulate a little bit more. We also have thousands and thousands and thousands of tips that are being followed up, many of which are credible.

The police are out there every day, law enforcement. It's a Herculean effort in the coordination of law enforcement here, from the federal, state and local level. And they are checking on each and every one of those tips. And, ultimately, hopefully, one of them will come to fruition and we'll actually get our killer.

ZAHN: You just talked about the Herculean effort, combining the work the FBI, the ATF. The sniper's activities is not spilling to Montgomery County, Prince George's County, now possibly Prince William County. How do you coordinate all of these agencies that have very different agendas?

GANSLER: Yes.

Actually, we have the same agenda. And the agenda is to stop the person, because we are all affected by it. All the schools in the metropolitan Washington area are closed down in terms of the kids being able to go out for recesses and have normal daily lives. People are living in fear.

This urban terrorist has really injected fear into the very marrow of the community. So we have the same objective in that sense. Last night's shooting put us into the fifth jurisdiction, two of which are in Virginia, two of which are in Maryland, and one is in the District of Columbia. But we are all used to working together. And I think the effort is being coordinated out of Montgomery County still in police headquarters.

All the evidence is going there. We are having these task force group meetings with prosecutors and police officers and federal officers. And everyone really is working the same page trying to compare what is common with all of the shootings.

ZAHN: Is there any turf warfare so far?

GANSLER: So far, there is not. And nor ought there be.

Obviously, there was a leak yesterday regarding a tarot card from a neighboring jurisdiction of Montgomery County. That incensed some people. Hopefully, that won't happen again. But there really is not a turf warfare. The Department of Justice and the attorney general, up to the president of the United States have offered their full cooperation. And we have actually formalized that agreement in the last few days, but that has been there since the beginning. So, no, there is not a turf warfare. Everybody is working together. And the resources are incredible being brought to bear here.

ZAHN: You just mentioned this leak. And that leak was about the tarot card. And our CNN contributor Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" actually spoke with the reporter from Channel 9 that broke that story. And that reporter told him that he was never told by his law enforcement source to hold back the information. In fact, he was told that this guy thought the information would be helpful to the case. What went wrong there, as far as you're concerned?

GANSLER: Well, I think what went wrong is clearly from the police officer's standpoint.

The police officer should never leak that kind of information. It undermines the integrity of the investigation and perhaps puts people, a citizen's life in jeopardy. And that is indeed what happened with this particular case. I don't fault the media. The media has been wonderful in this case. It's because of the media and the attention that we have been able to get the thousands and thousands of tips that we have gotten. And the police are able to respond.

Had that leak, had the person who had given the leak told the media outlet not to release it, I'm sure they would not have. So that is something that cannot happen again in the future and hopefully will not happen.

ZAHN: Mr. Gansler, help us understand the very tough balancing act that all of you have to walk right now. You want to inform the public on one hand and you don't want to mislead them on the other hand. And there is a pretty prevalent view out there that this sniper is watching and listening to everything you guys say. How does that affect what you share with the public?

GANSLER: Well, I think that the concerns are there, that you have to walk the fine line between trying to assuage the concerns of the community, make people understand that there is one-in-five-or- six-million chance that this person is going to get them, because there are so many people in the area. And the likelihood of them being a victim is very small.

But, at the same time, we do need to remind people that there is a killer out there, that they need to share information with us. Does that person -- do you, as a citizen, know somebody who is capable of this type of activity, who harbors a variety of high-powered rifles, that type of thing? So I think there is a fine line.

Obviously, the integrity of the investigation and eventual prosecution has been to be maintained. And the police are aware of that. That's why we don't talk of specific evidence, more general types of evidence.

ZAHN: How much do the families there who have been affected by this, particularly those who have lost loved ones, how much do they resent the fact that this sniper has not been caught?

GANSLER: I think they understand the efforts being put forth here. And it's incredible the amount of resources that are being put on to this case in terms of law enforcement. I'm unaware of any type of coordinated effort like this.

I think they understand, just the nature of the way in which this shooter is exercising his or her shootings makes it that much more difficult. They are committing these crimes in very crowded urban areas near major roads, usually during the rush hour time period. And they're shooting from very far away, 100 to 500 yards away. It's not like these are face-to-face confrontations where there are a variety of witnesses and the police should have these leads.

The police are looking into leads. I actually am very optimistic that we are closer now to apprehending the killer than we have been in the past because of the public's concerns. And I think the victims understand that.

ZAHN: In closing tonight, if you ever have the opportunity to face this shooter face to face, what would you say to him?

GANSLER: You know, obviously, we would all be curious as to why somebody is doing this and how they could do this. But there really is no possible defense or explanation for what he or she has done here. So I think, from our standpoint, we would be looking at a prosecution trying to make sure that justice is meted out in this case.

ZAHN: Doug Gansler, I know how busy you are. Thanks so much for spending a little time with us this evening. Appreciate your time.

Now, the idea of a modern-day urban hunter stalking human game is, unfortunately, not a new one. Perhaps the most notorious was David Berkowitz, who called himself the Son the Sam. He killed five women and one man in a deadly string of shootings in New York City back in 1976 and 1977.

But it wasn't the chilling notes that he left terrorizing the city that led to his capture. It was police work, with a dash of luck. One of the leaders of that investigation, retired NYPD Chief of Detectives Joseph Borrelli, joins us now from Greenport, New York.

Thank you for very much for being us, sir. Welcome.

JOSEPH BORRELLI, RET. NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: What do you think it's going to take to crack this case in Maryland and now Virginia and Washington?

BORRELLI: Well, I think a little bit of luck is involved, but an awful lot of hard legwork will probably lay the ground, the foundation for it.

They have to concentrate on everything they're doing, recording everything they're doing. And then, finally, some break somewhere down the line is going to occur. And when that happens, they will recognize it. And then they should be able to proceed from there.

ZAHN: Do you see any parallel between this case and the case that absorbed so much of your lifetime a couple decades ago?

BORRELLI: Yes, there were a few. I'm not that particular informed of what is going on down there.

But, apparently, Berkowitz, in the beginning, the first couple of incidents, they were on side streets. And then I think, as the public became aware, the next few incidents were close to ancillary roads and major highways. And then, when the concentration was heavy in the Bronx and Queens, he moved to Brooklyn.

And from what I've been gathering from what has gone on, the first few incidents were close -- I don't know where -- in some strange neighborhoods. And now they're close to major highways. And I think the latest incident, he kind of moved further away. So, in that sense, there was a lot of similarities.

ZAHN: I know you disagree with some of the profilers in the Maryland case who suggest that they think this guy wants to get caught. You think he's playing with police right now. Why do you believe that?

BORRELLI: Well, if he wants to get caught, he would make it a lot easier for them to catch him. And the fact that he dropped a card, if that is the case, I don't know what was on the card, just from what they report in the papers. But there might have been more. He might have been taunting with them.

But there is always this indication that they want to get caught. They said Berkowitz wanted to get caught, too, but he didn't indicate that to us when we questioned him about being -- whether he wanted to be caught or not or what. So there was no indication with Berkowitz. And I kind of feel the same way here.

ZAHN: Detective Borrelli, you just up the issue of the tarot card which was left at the scene of where that 13-year-old boy was shot. And I guess the question I have to you is how seriously you take the words of a killer.

After all, in the Son of Sam investigation, you're the detective that was written that personal letter, essentially saying -- quote -- "I am a monster. I am the Son of Sam." And, in this case, police have found this tarot card with the words, "Dear policeman, I am God." What do you make of it?

BORRELLI: It's another incident that looks -- again, in my view, when Berkowitz wrote that letter, it was kind of like a taunt. He was responding to something I had said about a possibility that he disliked women.

And he started off by saying, "I'm not a woman-hater." And he misspelled the word women. In this case, he's probably watching the TV and reading what they're saying about him. So now, he figures, "Well, let's play a little game with them." So he drops a little tidbit on them.

ZAHN: In the end, the Son of Sam was caught us because of a mistake he made in the form of a parking ticket.

BORRELLI: Right.

ZAHN: And at the top of this interview, you said maybe they need a little bit of luck to crack this case. Is that the way you think this thing finally will come to a close?

BORRELLI: Yes.

Well, the investigators know that, the more incidents that occur, the likelihood of a mistake is greater. It's enhanced. But, then again, the same people that are doing that investigation know they don't want anybody hurt or they don't want any additional people hurt. So it's a tremendous feeling, where you know the likelihood of capturing him are greater when there are more incidents, but you don't want anybody hurt.

So that is the problem that they have. And, hopefully, he won't commit any more and they will catch him before that.

ZAHN: Well, we're all on your side on that one.

Chief Borrelli, good of you to drop by. Thank you so much for your time this evening.

BORRELLI: OK. Thank you.

ZAHN: And still ahead tonight: a case of life imitating art. "The Sopranos" TV show stirs up some real-life drama. We'll explain.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROONEY: A woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why this has gotten lots of people very angry. Imagine that.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Commentator Andy Rooney gets paid to be controversial, but last week, many people felt Rooney's opinions went from being provocative to downright offensive. Appearing on a sports TV show hosted by former NFL quarterback Boomer Esiason, Rooney angered a lot of women, saying female sideline reporters have no business covering football games.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROONEY: The only thing that really bugs me about television's coverage is those damn women they have down on the sidelines who don't know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, I'm not a sexist person, but a woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Well, I asked Andy Rooney to join me tonight to talk about those incendiary words. He declined to appear, but he did tell me he probably shouldn't have made those comments. And he added that he feels there are some things that men do better than women and vice versa.

Here is his quote: "They're equal, but they're not the same." And Rooney added -- again quoting -- "When I see women down on the field, they look like amateur men, imitation men" -- unquote.

Joining me now to discuss Andy Rooney's remarks are sports reporters Christine Brennan of "USA Today" and Steak Shapiro, a sports radio talk show host from Sports Talk 790 The Zone.

So I am going to get my referee's whistle here and flag ready.

Good evening to you both. Thank you for joining us.

So, Christine, when you heard Andy say that, what was your reaction?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, "USA TODAY": Well, Paula, I kind of rolled my eyes.

He's 83 years old. He's an old geezer. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And he's certainly not in a position to hire or fire anyone. So, on one level, I really couldn't care less. There are 1,000 women doing their jobs today and we're doing just fine.

On the other hand, I think an interesting question to pose: If he had said, instead of talking about women, if he had talked about African-Americans or if he had talked about Asian-Americans, isn't it likely that he would have been fired by CBS? Why is it that it's OK to say these things about women, but it's not OK, obviously, to say things about other groups of people?

ZAHN: What about that, Steak? I see you shaking your head no. I'm sure exactly what that means.

STEAK SHAPIRO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That has no correlation. I mean, men play football. And African-Americans play it. And Asians play it. And Indians play it. And women don't play football. And there is no correlation. And the fact is, to try to equate it doesn't make any sense.

Look, I'm not saying I agree with him. I know a lot of female reporters do a good job. But I understand what he's saying. Men want their football from other men. If I'm watching a cheerleading competition on ESPN, I think a woman may have better chance of doing commentary on that because they've been a cheerleader than some guy that has never done it.

Why is that so outrageous? Why do we want to make a big issue of it? The fact is, to make this into a race issue, similar to some of these other issues that have come up with Augusta and everything else, and you want to say, "Well, what if it was an African-American?" that is the not the point. Women are not being deprived of anything.

And men want their football from other men. That is not so barbaric. And I'm not saying that women can't do a good job. I just think he has the right to say it. And a lot of men probably feel that way.

BRENNAN: Then how do you explain the fact, if men want their football from men, that the "Monday Night Football" ratings are the highest ratings in football and, of course, it's a female sideline reporter, Melissa Stark, who replaced Lesley Visser? So how do you explain that?

SHAPIRO: I got news for you. They'd have the same numbers with her on the sideline or with somebody else. So that is not why the numbers. The numbers are there because it's prime time, it's the National Football League, and it's the great American pastime right now, is the NFL. If Melissa Stark was not there, that number would not be any lower. And if Eric Dickerson was there, it wouldn't have an effect either way.

What I'm saying is, some men would prefer talking football with people who have played football. Women don't play football. They've never played football. They have no idea what it's like to play football, just like most men don't know what it's like to be cheerleaders or to play field hockey.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Let me jump in here, because that is a point Andy Rooney made to me this afternoon. He said, "Look, women don't play football." And I'm wondering, Christine, if you have ever felt you were at any disadvantage covering football from the sidelines having not played the game?

BRENNAN: No, absolutely not, Paula. And the reality is that most sports journalists, most sports writers, especially, have never played the game, male or female.

I, in fact, would make the point to you and to our viewers that it actually is more beneficial to have not played the game, because our responsibility at the end of the day as sports journalists, whether we're in print or broadcast, is to the viewer or to the reader. We are to explain the game as best we can to them. And most of them have never played the game of football or whatever game it is they're watching or whatever event on the field of play.

So, to do our job properly, we need to be able to explain it. And if you've played the game, it's a different realm. Frankly, Howard Cosell said it 30 years ago. He decried the jockocracy. The reality is that most football players, when they're asking a coach or a player a question, don't even have a question to ask. They make a comment or a statement. Ahmad Rashad talking to Michael Jordan comes to mind.

It's preposterous. It's ridiculous. It's not journalism. And it's not helping anyone. The reality is, the trained journalist, male or female, many of whom never played the game, do a much better job of telling the viewer or the reader what is going on in that game.

ZAHN: Jump in here, Steak.

SHAPIRO: Well, Christine, I have a lot of respect for. She's a great columnist. And I read her all the time. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. That's like saying let's get a political analyst that knows nothing about politics because they're not jaded.

The idea of somebody who has had the experience of being in an NFL game, the idea of a coach, how about that, that knows what these people are thinking, to say you're better off with someone who has no idea what the sidelines are like, no idea what the preparation is like is one of the most ridiculous notions. Why have experts in anything? You're an expert because you've played it and you've had experiences at it.

BRENNAN: Steak, you are assuming, obviously -- and I think erroneously and naively -- that the reporters who are on the sidelines or the reporters in the press box like myself are not doing our homework.

(CROSSTALK)

BRENNAN: Please don't interrupt me.

I was at practice every day when I covered the Washington Redskins in the 1980s. I knew what I was doing. I played flag football at Northwestern University. And I dare say that most of the other journalists that were with me, all of them male, probably had the same amount of football experience that I did.

SHAPIRO: Christine, to say it's an advantage to have never played the game speaks to how women are just the trying to

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Steak, the point she made, though, is a lot of the male reporters covering the game did not have football experience either.

SHAPIRO: And you know what, Paula? I agree with you.

But you know what I would prefer? I would prefer somebody who maybe did play the game, somebody who watched -- who are my analysts? The Boomer Esiasons, Phil Simms, and John Maddens of the world. Christine's notion that somebody is better off having never played the game -- I agree with you. Some men haven't played the game. They don't have the perspective, although most men have played football on some level that women haven't.

But to go with this angle that somehow you're a better journalist if you've never had the experience is a ridiculous notion. As I said, are we better off with political analysts and writers that have no idea, people to comment on the Middle East who have never been there?

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But you don't seem to be giving Christine any credit for having studied the game, having attended the workouts.

SHAPIRO: Look, I read Christine. Christine is a fabulous columnist. I read Lesley Visser growing up in Boston. She covered a lot of sports and she did a great job. And Jackie MacMullan does a great job. And you certainly can do that.

But the question is, are you better off? No, you're not. I wish I had played in the NFL. It would give me a better perspective. I would probably would have a lot more money now, too. But to say you're better off not having done it -- and the other thing is, why shouldn't Andy Rooney say, "I want my reporters covering football from people who have played it"?

And that's all he's saying. It shouldn't be worthy of this uproar that it's this sexist, ridiculous statement. I think it makes a lot of sense to a lot of people.

ZAHN: Christine, let me just throw out one final thought here.

Do you think women are being thin-skinned about Andy Rooney right now? After all, he is paid to be a curmudgeon. Is it possible that he's just tweaking you? We know he believes this, but he also, over the years, has made politically incorrect comments that have gotten him a lot of attention.

BRENNAN: Well, I wasn't going to come on this show. As I said, I couldn't have cared less about what Andy Rooney said. I have a busy career going on. And to take time out to talk about this is silly, with all due respect. This is like talking about, "Should women vote or should African-Americans own property?"

We're there. We're all there. We're going to continue to be there. And no one cares, frankly, what anyone thinks, Andy Rooney or Steak or anyone. The reality is, women are doing a terrific job. So I absolutely agree with you. This is silly. And we would all be better off, I think, as a culture and a society, if Andy Rooney had not said it or if we hadn't played it up and made it a big deal, as we are right now. ZAHN: Hey, Steak, where did you get your name?

SHAPIRO: It's a dark, seedy story, Paula. If I tell you, you won't be able to continue the program.

ZAHN: Well, maybe you'll have to come back some other time and share it with all of us.

SHAPIRO: Yes, indeed, I will.

ZAHN: Christine Brennan, Steak Shapiro, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

SHAPIRO: Thanks. I appreciate it.

BRENNAN: Thank you.

ZAHN: We appreciate your time.

Still ahead: Live from New York, a new unauthorized book on "Saturday Night Live" dishes out the dirt.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up: Everyone loves a parade -- well, almost everyone.

When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Does "The Sopranos" knows make Italian-Americans look bad or does it reflect real-life Italian-American members of the mafia? And should Italian-Americans who want to protect their image protest against the mafia families reportedly still operating in New York or pressure New York's mayor to retract his invitation to have two "Sopranos" actors march in New York's Columbus Day Parade?

Well, "The Sopranos" TV show itself recently hinted at its answers to such questions in an episode where mafia criminals defend Columbus' images by trying to stifle protests against him. New York City's parade is next Monday.

And joining me now Columbus Citizens Foundation Vice President Frank Fusaro.

Welcome. Good to see you.

FRANK FUSARO, VICE PRESIDENT, COLUMBUS CITIZENS FOUNDATION: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

ZAHN: What is it you want from the mayor? Do you want him to disinvite these actors to march in the parade?

FUSARO: Well, first of all, we have a great deal of respect for the mayor. As an ethnicity, an ethnic group, I think we supported the mayor in record numbers. So let's not separate the issue from the man. We respect the man.

But we would like him to reconsider, because we really feel, in our heart of hearts -- although we haven't had direct contact with him, dealing through some of his associates -- that, if he understood our feelings, if he understands how passionate we were about the parade and about what we are doing, that this would have never happen.

ZAHN: The mayor declined our invitation to appear on the show tonight. But here is what he had to say about why he invited Lorraine Bracco in the first place and Dominic Chianese.

He said -- quote -- "Both of them are very proud of their Italian heritage. I didn't invite them as members of 'The Sopranos.' I didn't invite anybody else from `The Sopranos' cast. What I did is invite two people that I think would be thrilled to march. And it was a nice way for the city to say thank you."

Doesn't he have the right to do that?

FUSARO: Well, he certainly has the right to honor them. He certainly has the right to cite good works that we have done. And we have no issue with the specific actors. It's the characters they portray. And it's impossible to separate these actors from their characters at this point in time. Let's be real. This is a very successful, popular show.

ZAHN: Sure.

FUSARO: And when you see these two individuals, you're not going to see the individual people that they are. And we have no indication that they're not fine people. But you're going to see the characters that they portray. And you're going to see that show. And that is what we take exception to.

ZAHN: But the argument they make is, you should be able to separate them from the characters they play.

Here is what Lorraine Bracco has said about how thrilled she is to be included in the parade. She said: "I am glad the mayor acknowledged me as a successful Italian-American actress. As a native New Yorker and an activist, it's a privilege to march next to the mayor.

And then Dominic Chianese said this: "As a citizen of New York, I'm proud to march with Mayor Bloomberg in the Columbus Day Parade."

What do you say to them?

FUSARO: Well, I would say the Columbus Day Parade is 58 years old and we have not had a request from them prior to them being on "The "Sopranos" to march in that parade or step up and take pride in their Italian-American heritage.

ZAHN: Maybe it's because they didn't have such high profiles back then. FUSARO: Well, that may be true. But we don't have high profiles. And we really do put our heart and soul into the parade, which is run for philanthropic purposes, by the way.

And, again, we have no exception. And we have no exception to them as individuals, but it's just the characters that they portray. And them marching in the parade is just -- it's counter to what we stand for and who we are. I'm not going to judge how they make a living. It's up to them to decide how they want to make a living. But the portrayal -- and it's not just against Italian-Americans, who are portrayed in the most boorish and base manner.

It's the violence. It's women being murdered on the -- beaten to death in episodes of the show that we are against. I have a 25-year- old daughter studying, getting a Ph.D. at Columbia right now. I don't want her associated with that kind of stuff. And we do get painted with that brush.

ZAHN: How do you explain the success of the show, then?

FUSARO: Oh, you take "Dallas" or "Dynasty," which were two wildly successful shows, give them unlimited sex, give them violence, and it plays to the most base instincts of people. And I'm not arguing that the show is not popular. It's obviously popular, but that makes it more insidious.

ZAHN: Let's come back to the issue of the parade.

You've got American Indians out there saying there should not be a Columbus Day celebration at all. They argue that Christopher Columbus began the transatlantic slave trade. And they say he is responsible for the slaughter of Indian people. They say you should not be celebrating this at all. Why are they wrong?

FUSARO: Well, I spent a lot of years in school learning about a lot of things in history. And Christopher Columbus was one of them. And he was always painted as an explorer, as a hero, and so on and so forth.

In the last five or 10 years, he's been painted as a slave trader and all these other things. I don't know where the issue lands at that point. I know it took a lot of nerve to assemble that group of men and make that voyage that was so fraught with danger. So if he's an explorer, God bless him.

But that is only one of the reasons we do the parade. This is about Italian pride. This is about an ethnicity that came to New York City and to the United States with absolutely nothing, that were not accepted and were not embraced. And they did -- they accomplished the great American story. And we want others to follow in our footsteps.

ZAHN: Well, we hope you have a successful parade. It may not end up exactly the way you want it, but I know those of us who live here always look forward to the parade.

FUSARO: Yes. Thank you. ZAHN: Thank you, Frank Fusaro, for your time. Appreciate your dropping by.

Next: an uncensored look behind the scenes at "SNL." That would "Saturday Night Live."

Don't go away.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

JOHN BELUSHI, ACTOR: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: TV's longest-running comedy show and the impact it's made on real life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

WILL FERRELL, ACTOR: I don't know what that was all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: If you're watching us tonight -- and you know who you are -- there is a good chance you get a good chunk of your news from CNN. But a lot of Americans don't learn about what is happening in their country or the world through CNN or other news outlets.

For more than a quarter-century now, millions of Americans have turned to a weekly late-night show to see what a bunch of smart, irreverent young comedians had to say about the state of the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's Saturday night!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN (voice-over): Seven familiar words that have become an indelible part of our language and of American pop culture, nearly three decades of comedy on the edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: Well, the power is working OK. I am going to turn her around and see if I can get a look at her.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZAHN: At first, it was just a Saturday night filler that replaced reruns of "The Tonight Show." Johnny Carson hated NBC airing his show on the weekends. "

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: "SNL" was something different, something we had never seen before, a new brand of comedy with a new class of stars, in the beginning, a clan of not-so-well-known, not-so-ready-for-prime-time players.

But today, just look at some of the graduates' phenomenal names: Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, Bill Murray, Dana Carvey, Robert Downey Jr., Mike Myers, Adam Sandler. And then there is Eddie Murphy, who almost didn't get the job. Chris Rock once called it the Harvard of comedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

GILDA RADNER, ACTRESS: One time I, Roseanne Rosanna-Danna, was eating a sparerib. And a little shred of it got caught here. Well, I thought I was going to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: On screen, they made us laugh. Yet, off screen, there was great sadness: rampant drug use and lives lost way before their time, alleged backstage rivalries, warring personalities, women and minorities fighting to have their voices heard. The best in Hollywood came out to be part of the fun, sometimes even surprising us and the show's cast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You going to let her talk to you that way or what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody talks to me like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: In the midst of all the fun, there were also the serious moments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: New York City is open for business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, after September 11, telling America and the world that it was OK to laugh again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

LORNE MICHAELS, "SNL" CREATOR: Can we be funny?

GIULIANI: Why start now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Some say that it is moments like these that prove "Saturday Night Live" was more than just a television show. It was a revolution. No matter what you think, most agree that, through the years, it made us laugh at ourselves, our idols, and our presidents in a way we never thought possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

FERRELL: Sorry, Dick. I'll go over to my desk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: When we come back: a new book whose authors had unprecedented access behind the scenes at "Saturday Night Live," which brings us to tonight's edition of "Off the Radar," catching us up on an original cast member.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

STEVE MARTIN, ACTOR: Slap my hand, black soul man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Original "Saturday Night Live" cast member Garrett Morris is an African-American trailblazer. He played a vital role in launching what would become America's most popular sketch show. But when Morris left "SNL" in 1980, the fame did not follow.

Over the next few years, Morris disappeared from public life. The obscurity took a heavy toll. And by the early 1980s, he was abusing drugs.

GARRETT MORRIS, ACTOR: If you want to know whether I experimented with some drugs, yes, I did. But that's about all I'm going to -- I don't think anybody really deserves to know it. I don't think it's anybody's business. I think my positive contribution to society is what is important.

ANNOUNCER: But, for a while at least, Morris' life continued to be anything but positive. In 1994, he was nearly shot to death by a robber. The bullet ricocheted through his body, hitting vital organs. It took him months to recover.

What happened to Morris after that? The answer when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to former "SNL" cast member Garrett Morris after his recovery from a near-fatal shooting? He came back strong, landing a five-year run on "The Jamie Foxx Show," a hit sitcom. And this fall, he's taking on a new role as editor of the new magazine "Savant." The multicultural publication will cover everything from arts to politics.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Well, with more than a quarter century of stars, egos and pressure, "SNL" has generated more than its share of behind-the-scenes legends. And that was before the two authors of a new book on "SNL" got unprecedented access and cooperation from the principals behind the show.

Earlier, I spoke with the authors of "Live From New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And joining me now, the authors of "Live From New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live": Tom Shales and James Andrew Miller.

Congratulations, gentlemen.

JIM MILLER, CO-AUTHOR, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Thanks.

TOM SHALES, CO-AUTHOR, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Thanks.

ZAHN: No. 1 on Amazon.com.

MILLER: Take it any day.

ZAHN: Not bad.

Do I have to call you James Andrew throughout the interview?

MILLER: Yes, please.

ZAHN: Oh, good. Thank you.

So you describe this as the uncensored history. Jim, what was uncensored before?

MILLER: Well, I think a lot of people didn't even talk before. One of the things Danny Aykroyd told us, for instance, was, he had not participated in the books prior to this. And so he took off his leather jacket, sat down on the coach with us and said, "OK, I'm prepared to talk." And so we really took it, like LBJ said, with the bark off. If you put your name on a story, we printed it. It was a lot of fun.

ZAHN: You two had unbelievable access in getting to not only the players on air, but off air. Why were they so cooperative?

SHALES: Well, I don't want to sound like the long-suffering author, but it wasn't easy. Some of them took months and months to get to. The magic key was Lorne Michaels. He put his blessing on the book from the very beginning.

ZAHN: The executive producer of the show.

SHALES: Yes.

So, once we had his OK and his approval, it was a lot easier. But, still, we are dealing with prima donnas. We're dealing with sometimes very self-important people. Some people were very nice and cooperative, couldn't have been easier or more pleasant to get to. Other people, not so nice.

ZAHN: And you had plead and beg for information on stories confirming the rampant use of drugs in this show. What did you learn?

SHALES: Pot-smoking was as common as drinking Pepsi or Coke. So I don't consider that bad. And some people think it helps the creative juices flow.

Al Franken, one of their long-time writers and also often performer on the show, said he -- the coke was used to stay awake, because Lorne Michaels imposed this insane structure on the show, which is basically key to his own circadian rhythm, which is, he likes to get up at 3:00 p.m., have breakfast and then go into work. And so they would work all night and still do sometimes, I think, work all Wednesday night, writing, all Tuesday night writing, writing, writing.

And Al said, "Well, I really just took coke to make sure nobody else took too much coke."

ZAHN: Wow.

SHALES: Of course, Chevy's immortal line, which is actually quoting Lorne, "Coke is God's way of telling you, you have too much money."

But in those days, they didn't know that the outcome could be as tragic as we now know, with John Belushi's death and with many other deaths since, whether among the show's cast or not.

ZAHN: Was there ever a time in the taping of the history of this show where the players were so messed up, they were worried they could not even get the show on the air? MILLER: A lot of guest hosts would fall for a prank of Belushi, because he would be -- Richard Dreyfuss, for instance, told us a story in the book, where he was rehearsing during the dress rehearsal for the show. And it looked like Belushi was just drugged out of his mind. And he thought to himself, there is no way this guy is going to be able to go on.

But somehow John managed, every Saturday night at 11:30, to rise to the occasion. I think there are a couple of sketches, though, you can tell, particularly when he did Joe Cocker, where you know he was heavily medicated.

SHALES: And one night, he did Fred Silverman. And Danny Aykroyd told us -- who was, of course, his closest friend in the world, and best friend, I think -- he said, "That was pure blow" the night that John played Fred Silverman. In other words, he was pretty coked up.

They would have paramedics standing by sometimes for John. And his doctor was often in attendance in the audience, whether he was a patron of the arts or whether he wanted to be there just in case, whatever.

MILLER: A little suspicious.

ZAHN: Is there any anger from any of these people that he was not better protected? It's on thing to have a medic out there on duty if the guy got into trouble. But it's another thing to have management say: "You know what? This has gotten out of hand."

MILLER: Well, one of the biggest surprises, I found, in talking to people, Jane Curtin stopped talking to Lorne Michaels after the first year. She was so appalled by what was going on with John, and she said, "Look, we have to do something to stop him."

SHALES: John Belushi, he was so much more than a person who abused drugs. And I hope -- we try to bring this across in the book. And he was a very lovable person.

I met him many times when he wasn't -- we weren't friends, but I met him many times when he was not out of his mind on drugs. And Jim Belushi, his brother, is wonderful in the book. And he says everyone tried to get him to stop. But John had such a magnetic personality and such a spell over people. Jim says, "If you were with my brother, in 20 minutes, he could have you dancing on a cigarette machine." I don't know why that image came to his mind.

And he would borrow money from everyone. He would crash at everyone's house, sometimes accidentally setting them on fire.

ZAHN: Oops.

SHALES: But everyone loved him. He was not just a drug addict.

ZAHN: You've given us some insights as to what this place is like behind the scenes. Let's talk a little bit about the traction that some of the political humor has had. We've all heard the story about Al Gore's campaign forcing him to watch one of the "Saturday Night Live" skits to improve his performance the next time around.

MILLER: Well, after the first debate, Gore had this habit of going (INAUDIBLE) when Bush was talking.

And the staff really didn't know how tackle it. And, of course, the next week, "Saturday Night Live" went to town on that. And Darrell Hammond, who was playing Gore, kept on doing it over and over again. So they had Gore watch the sketch. And he laughed. And, sure enough, the next debate, he didn't do it.

ZAHN: Before we let you go, you obviously are a television critic and an acknowledged fan of this show. Where do you see this show going from here?

SHALES: As far as it wants. As long as Lorne keeps up his enthusiasm and wants to stay with the show -- and he's done that for almost three decades now, and it's amazing to watch -- I think the show will thrive. And when he leaves, that is a whole other story. Who knows what will happen to it then.

ZAHN: Well, I appreciate both of you dropping by. Congratulations, Tom.

SHALES: Thank you so much.

ZAHN: Congratulations, James Andrew, otherwise known as Jim in this studio.

MILLER: Thanks for having us.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time. And continued good luck to both of you.

MILLER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tomorrow: National Coming Out day. We will be talking with Candace Gingrich and Betty DeGeneres on coming out and having family come out.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Madonna and her director husband, Guy Ritchie.

Thanks so much joining us tonight. And for all of us here at CNN, good night. I hope to see you tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING" -- that is, if you're up early enough. Please join me at 7:00 a.m. Eastern.

Until then, good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Night Live'>


Aired October 10, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Paula Zahn, filling in for Connie Chung.
Tonight: The hunt goes on. Has the serial sniper struck again?

ANNOUNCER: The search for a serial sniper. Tonight, we'll revisit one of the most notorious serial murder cases of our time, Son of Sam, and talk with one man who knows what it takes to catch a killer.

Have you ever noticed how often Andy Rooney's comments land him in hot water?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY ROONEY: A woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the women on the sidelines take the field and respond.

Wise guys unwelcome: why an invite to a Columbus Day parade has got the organizers fuming mad.

They've kept America laughing for almost 30 years. Tonight: an uncensored look back behind the scenes of "Saturday Night Live."

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Paula Zahn.

ZAHN: Good evening.

Tonight, amid concern that the latest shooting was the work of the serial sniper, the search and the fear goes on in and around Washington, D.C. A little bit later, we'll look at a high-profile case with distinct similarities that was solved, at least in part, because the shooter finally slipped up.

But first, CNN's Kathleen Koch is on the story with the latest on the case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the news authorities had feared, but expected. The sniper had shot his ninth victim, his seventh murder in over a week.

CHARLIE DEANE, PRINCE WILLIAM COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: The ballistic evidence has concluded that these cases are linked.

KOCH: Police Thursday collected evidence at the Manassas, Virginia, Sunoco station where a man was gunned down by a single shot Wednesday night while filling his car with gas. It's the third sniper shooting at a gas station. Police have some useful witnesses and more clues are coming from area surveillance cameras.

QUESTION: Surveillance video, have you seen anything on there that can help?

DEANE: We are working on those as leads, but we would not discuss what that might reveal.

KOCH: Meanwhile, more developments in Maryland in the Monday shooting at a middle school: The tarot calling card that may or may not have been left by the killer has more than a grim statement to police. Besides the words, "Mister Policeman, I am God," a highly placed source close to the investigation says there was writing warning police not to make the message or the existence of the card public.

Police believe the sniper may have been trying to make contact and had hoped to establish a rapport with the killer. Experts say the instructions are revealing.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: He doesn't want to think he's on par with them. He wants to think he's above them and controlling them. But he wants to start some kind of communication, so he can have fun with this.

KOCH: Meanwhile, as police struggle with an investigation that now spans four counties and the District of Columbia, they have set up a new centralized tip line run by the FBI for all the shootings. Montgomery County's police chief was asked if the federal government should take over the case.

CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: It really doesn't matter to myself or Mr. Duncan who runs the investigation. We would like to find the person or the people responsible for this, arrest them, indict them, and get a conviction.

KOCH (on camera): Tips in the case and reward money continue to pour in. Police say they're making progress, but the sniper killings continue.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, Montgomery County, Maryland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we are now joined by Montgomery County State's Attorney Doug Gansler from Rockville, Maryland, tonight.

Welcome, sir. Glad to have you with us. DOUGLAS GANSLER, MONTGOMERY COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Good to be here.

ZAHN: We know your office is working alongside law enforcement already. What kind of evidence do you have built up against the sniper?

GANSLER: We have some physical evidence. And with each and every one of the shootings, we accumulate a little bit more. We also have thousands and thousands and thousands of tips that are being followed up, many of which are credible.

The police are out there every day, law enforcement. It's a Herculean effort in the coordination of law enforcement here, from the federal, state and local level. And they are checking on each and every one of those tips. And, ultimately, hopefully, one of them will come to fruition and we'll actually get our killer.

ZAHN: You just talked about the Herculean effort, combining the work the FBI, the ATF. The sniper's activities is not spilling to Montgomery County, Prince George's County, now possibly Prince William County. How do you coordinate all of these agencies that have very different agendas?

GANSLER: Yes.

Actually, we have the same agenda. And the agenda is to stop the person, because we are all affected by it. All the schools in the metropolitan Washington area are closed down in terms of the kids being able to go out for recesses and have normal daily lives. People are living in fear.

This urban terrorist has really injected fear into the very marrow of the community. So we have the same objective in that sense. Last night's shooting put us into the fifth jurisdiction, two of which are in Virginia, two of which are in Maryland, and one is in the District of Columbia. But we are all used to working together. And I think the effort is being coordinated out of Montgomery County still in police headquarters.

All the evidence is going there. We are having these task force group meetings with prosecutors and police officers and federal officers. And everyone really is working the same page trying to compare what is common with all of the shootings.

ZAHN: Is there any turf warfare so far?

GANSLER: So far, there is not. And nor ought there be.

Obviously, there was a leak yesterday regarding a tarot card from a neighboring jurisdiction of Montgomery County. That incensed some people. Hopefully, that won't happen again. But there really is not a turf warfare. The Department of Justice and the attorney general, up to the president of the United States have offered their full cooperation. And we have actually formalized that agreement in the last few days, but that has been there since the beginning. So, no, there is not a turf warfare. Everybody is working together. And the resources are incredible being brought to bear here.

ZAHN: You just mentioned this leak. And that leak was about the tarot card. And our CNN contributor Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" actually spoke with the reporter from Channel 9 that broke that story. And that reporter told him that he was never told by his law enforcement source to hold back the information. In fact, he was told that this guy thought the information would be helpful to the case. What went wrong there, as far as you're concerned?

GANSLER: Well, I think what went wrong is clearly from the police officer's standpoint.

The police officer should never leak that kind of information. It undermines the integrity of the investigation and perhaps puts people, a citizen's life in jeopardy. And that is indeed what happened with this particular case. I don't fault the media. The media has been wonderful in this case. It's because of the media and the attention that we have been able to get the thousands and thousands of tips that we have gotten. And the police are able to respond.

Had that leak, had the person who had given the leak told the media outlet not to release it, I'm sure they would not have. So that is something that cannot happen again in the future and hopefully will not happen.

ZAHN: Mr. Gansler, help us understand the very tough balancing act that all of you have to walk right now. You want to inform the public on one hand and you don't want to mislead them on the other hand. And there is a pretty prevalent view out there that this sniper is watching and listening to everything you guys say. How does that affect what you share with the public?

GANSLER: Well, I think that the concerns are there, that you have to walk the fine line between trying to assuage the concerns of the community, make people understand that there is one-in-five-or- six-million chance that this person is going to get them, because there are so many people in the area. And the likelihood of them being a victim is very small.

But, at the same time, we do need to remind people that there is a killer out there, that they need to share information with us. Does that person -- do you, as a citizen, know somebody who is capable of this type of activity, who harbors a variety of high-powered rifles, that type of thing? So I think there is a fine line.

Obviously, the integrity of the investigation and eventual prosecution has been to be maintained. And the police are aware of that. That's why we don't talk of specific evidence, more general types of evidence.

ZAHN: How much do the families there who have been affected by this, particularly those who have lost loved ones, how much do they resent the fact that this sniper has not been caught?

GANSLER: I think they understand the efforts being put forth here. And it's incredible the amount of resources that are being put on to this case in terms of law enforcement. I'm unaware of any type of coordinated effort like this.

I think they understand, just the nature of the way in which this shooter is exercising his or her shootings makes it that much more difficult. They are committing these crimes in very crowded urban areas near major roads, usually during the rush hour time period. And they're shooting from very far away, 100 to 500 yards away. It's not like these are face-to-face confrontations where there are a variety of witnesses and the police should have these leads.

The police are looking into leads. I actually am very optimistic that we are closer now to apprehending the killer than we have been in the past because of the public's concerns. And I think the victims understand that.

ZAHN: In closing tonight, if you ever have the opportunity to face this shooter face to face, what would you say to him?

GANSLER: You know, obviously, we would all be curious as to why somebody is doing this and how they could do this. But there really is no possible defense or explanation for what he or she has done here. So I think, from our standpoint, we would be looking at a prosecution trying to make sure that justice is meted out in this case.

ZAHN: Doug Gansler, I know how busy you are. Thanks so much for spending a little time with us this evening. Appreciate your time.

Now, the idea of a modern-day urban hunter stalking human game is, unfortunately, not a new one. Perhaps the most notorious was David Berkowitz, who called himself the Son the Sam. He killed five women and one man in a deadly string of shootings in New York City back in 1976 and 1977.

But it wasn't the chilling notes that he left terrorizing the city that led to his capture. It was police work, with a dash of luck. One of the leaders of that investigation, retired NYPD Chief of Detectives Joseph Borrelli, joins us now from Greenport, New York.

Thank you for very much for being us, sir. Welcome.

JOSEPH BORRELLI, RET. NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: What do you think it's going to take to crack this case in Maryland and now Virginia and Washington?

BORRELLI: Well, I think a little bit of luck is involved, but an awful lot of hard legwork will probably lay the ground, the foundation for it.

They have to concentrate on everything they're doing, recording everything they're doing. And then, finally, some break somewhere down the line is going to occur. And when that happens, they will recognize it. And then they should be able to proceed from there.

ZAHN: Do you see any parallel between this case and the case that absorbed so much of your lifetime a couple decades ago?

BORRELLI: Yes, there were a few. I'm not that particular informed of what is going on down there.

But, apparently, Berkowitz, in the beginning, the first couple of incidents, they were on side streets. And then I think, as the public became aware, the next few incidents were close to ancillary roads and major highways. And then, when the concentration was heavy in the Bronx and Queens, he moved to Brooklyn.

And from what I've been gathering from what has gone on, the first few incidents were close -- I don't know where -- in some strange neighborhoods. And now they're close to major highways. And I think the latest incident, he kind of moved further away. So, in that sense, there was a lot of similarities.

ZAHN: I know you disagree with some of the profilers in the Maryland case who suggest that they think this guy wants to get caught. You think he's playing with police right now. Why do you believe that?

BORRELLI: Well, if he wants to get caught, he would make it a lot easier for them to catch him. And the fact that he dropped a card, if that is the case, I don't know what was on the card, just from what they report in the papers. But there might have been more. He might have been taunting with them.

But there is always this indication that they want to get caught. They said Berkowitz wanted to get caught, too, but he didn't indicate that to us when we questioned him about being -- whether he wanted to be caught or not or what. So there was no indication with Berkowitz. And I kind of feel the same way here.

ZAHN: Detective Borrelli, you just up the issue of the tarot card which was left at the scene of where that 13-year-old boy was shot. And I guess the question I have to you is how seriously you take the words of a killer.

After all, in the Son of Sam investigation, you're the detective that was written that personal letter, essentially saying -- quote -- "I am a monster. I am the Son of Sam." And, in this case, police have found this tarot card with the words, "Dear policeman, I am God." What do you make of it?

BORRELLI: It's another incident that looks -- again, in my view, when Berkowitz wrote that letter, it was kind of like a taunt. He was responding to something I had said about a possibility that he disliked women.

And he started off by saying, "I'm not a woman-hater." And he misspelled the word women. In this case, he's probably watching the TV and reading what they're saying about him. So now, he figures, "Well, let's play a little game with them." So he drops a little tidbit on them.

ZAHN: In the end, the Son of Sam was caught us because of a mistake he made in the form of a parking ticket.

BORRELLI: Right.

ZAHN: And at the top of this interview, you said maybe they need a little bit of luck to crack this case. Is that the way you think this thing finally will come to a close?

BORRELLI: Yes.

Well, the investigators know that, the more incidents that occur, the likelihood of a mistake is greater. It's enhanced. But, then again, the same people that are doing that investigation know they don't want anybody hurt or they don't want any additional people hurt. So it's a tremendous feeling, where you know the likelihood of capturing him are greater when there are more incidents, but you don't want anybody hurt.

So that is the problem that they have. And, hopefully, he won't commit any more and they will catch him before that.

ZAHN: Well, we're all on your side on that one.

Chief Borrelli, good of you to drop by. Thank you so much for your time this evening.

BORRELLI: OK. Thank you.

ZAHN: And still ahead tonight: a case of life imitating art. "The Sopranos" TV show stirs up some real-life drama. We'll explain.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROONEY: A woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why this has gotten lots of people very angry. Imagine that.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Commentator Andy Rooney gets paid to be controversial, but last week, many people felt Rooney's opinions went from being provocative to downright offensive. Appearing on a sports TV show hosted by former NFL quarterback Boomer Esiason, Rooney angered a lot of women, saying female sideline reporters have no business covering football games.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROONEY: The only thing that really bugs me about television's coverage is those damn women they have down on the sidelines who don't know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, I'm not a sexist person, but a woman has no business being down there trying to make some comment about a football game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Well, I asked Andy Rooney to join me tonight to talk about those incendiary words. He declined to appear, but he did tell me he probably shouldn't have made those comments. And he added that he feels there are some things that men do better than women and vice versa.

Here is his quote: "They're equal, but they're not the same." And Rooney added -- again quoting -- "When I see women down on the field, they look like amateur men, imitation men" -- unquote.

Joining me now to discuss Andy Rooney's remarks are sports reporters Christine Brennan of "USA Today" and Steak Shapiro, a sports radio talk show host from Sports Talk 790 The Zone.

So I am going to get my referee's whistle here and flag ready.

Good evening to you both. Thank you for joining us.

So, Christine, when you heard Andy say that, what was your reaction?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, "USA TODAY": Well, Paula, I kind of rolled my eyes.

He's 83 years old. He's an old geezer. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And he's certainly not in a position to hire or fire anyone. So, on one level, I really couldn't care less. There are 1,000 women doing their jobs today and we're doing just fine.

On the other hand, I think an interesting question to pose: If he had said, instead of talking about women, if he had talked about African-Americans or if he had talked about Asian-Americans, isn't it likely that he would have been fired by CBS? Why is it that it's OK to say these things about women, but it's not OK, obviously, to say things about other groups of people?

ZAHN: What about that, Steak? I see you shaking your head no. I'm sure exactly what that means.

STEAK SHAPIRO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That has no correlation. I mean, men play football. And African-Americans play it. And Asians play it. And Indians play it. And women don't play football. And there is no correlation. And the fact is, to try to equate it doesn't make any sense.

Look, I'm not saying I agree with him. I know a lot of female reporters do a good job. But I understand what he's saying. Men want their football from other men. If I'm watching a cheerleading competition on ESPN, I think a woman may have better chance of doing commentary on that because they've been a cheerleader than some guy that has never done it.

Why is that so outrageous? Why do we want to make a big issue of it? The fact is, to make this into a race issue, similar to some of these other issues that have come up with Augusta and everything else, and you want to say, "Well, what if it was an African-American?" that is the not the point. Women are not being deprived of anything.

And men want their football from other men. That is not so barbaric. And I'm not saying that women can't do a good job. I just think he has the right to say it. And a lot of men probably feel that way.

BRENNAN: Then how do you explain the fact, if men want their football from men, that the "Monday Night Football" ratings are the highest ratings in football and, of course, it's a female sideline reporter, Melissa Stark, who replaced Lesley Visser? So how do you explain that?

SHAPIRO: I got news for you. They'd have the same numbers with her on the sideline or with somebody else. So that is not why the numbers. The numbers are there because it's prime time, it's the National Football League, and it's the great American pastime right now, is the NFL. If Melissa Stark was not there, that number would not be any lower. And if Eric Dickerson was there, it wouldn't have an effect either way.

What I'm saying is, some men would prefer talking football with people who have played football. Women don't play football. They've never played football. They have no idea what it's like to play football, just like most men don't know what it's like to be cheerleaders or to play field hockey.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Let me jump in here, because that is a point Andy Rooney made to me this afternoon. He said, "Look, women don't play football." And I'm wondering, Christine, if you have ever felt you were at any disadvantage covering football from the sidelines having not played the game?

BRENNAN: No, absolutely not, Paula. And the reality is that most sports journalists, most sports writers, especially, have never played the game, male or female.

I, in fact, would make the point to you and to our viewers that it actually is more beneficial to have not played the game, because our responsibility at the end of the day as sports journalists, whether we're in print or broadcast, is to the viewer or to the reader. We are to explain the game as best we can to them. And most of them have never played the game of football or whatever game it is they're watching or whatever event on the field of play.

So, to do our job properly, we need to be able to explain it. And if you've played the game, it's a different realm. Frankly, Howard Cosell said it 30 years ago. He decried the jockocracy. The reality is that most football players, when they're asking a coach or a player a question, don't even have a question to ask. They make a comment or a statement. Ahmad Rashad talking to Michael Jordan comes to mind.

It's preposterous. It's ridiculous. It's not journalism. And it's not helping anyone. The reality is, the trained journalist, male or female, many of whom never played the game, do a much better job of telling the viewer or the reader what is going on in that game.

ZAHN: Jump in here, Steak.

SHAPIRO: Well, Christine, I have a lot of respect for. She's a great columnist. And I read her all the time. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. That's like saying let's get a political analyst that knows nothing about politics because they're not jaded.

The idea of somebody who has had the experience of being in an NFL game, the idea of a coach, how about that, that knows what these people are thinking, to say you're better off with someone who has no idea what the sidelines are like, no idea what the preparation is like is one of the most ridiculous notions. Why have experts in anything? You're an expert because you've played it and you've had experiences at it.

BRENNAN: Steak, you are assuming, obviously -- and I think erroneously and naively -- that the reporters who are on the sidelines or the reporters in the press box like myself are not doing our homework.

(CROSSTALK)

BRENNAN: Please don't interrupt me.

I was at practice every day when I covered the Washington Redskins in the 1980s. I knew what I was doing. I played flag football at Northwestern University. And I dare say that most of the other journalists that were with me, all of them male, probably had the same amount of football experience that I did.

SHAPIRO: Christine, to say it's an advantage to have never played the game speaks to how women are just the trying to

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Steak, the point she made, though, is a lot of the male reporters covering the game did not have football experience either.

SHAPIRO: And you know what, Paula? I agree with you.

But you know what I would prefer? I would prefer somebody who maybe did play the game, somebody who watched -- who are my analysts? The Boomer Esiasons, Phil Simms, and John Maddens of the world. Christine's notion that somebody is better off having never played the game -- I agree with you. Some men haven't played the game. They don't have the perspective, although most men have played football on some level that women haven't.

But to go with this angle that somehow you're a better journalist if you've never had the experience is a ridiculous notion. As I said, are we better off with political analysts and writers that have no idea, people to comment on the Middle East who have never been there?

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But you don't seem to be giving Christine any credit for having studied the game, having attended the workouts.

SHAPIRO: Look, I read Christine. Christine is a fabulous columnist. I read Lesley Visser growing up in Boston. She covered a lot of sports and she did a great job. And Jackie MacMullan does a great job. And you certainly can do that.

But the question is, are you better off? No, you're not. I wish I had played in the NFL. It would give me a better perspective. I would probably would have a lot more money now, too. But to say you're better off not having done it -- and the other thing is, why shouldn't Andy Rooney say, "I want my reporters covering football from people who have played it"?

And that's all he's saying. It shouldn't be worthy of this uproar that it's this sexist, ridiculous statement. I think it makes a lot of sense to a lot of people.

ZAHN: Christine, let me just throw out one final thought here.

Do you think women are being thin-skinned about Andy Rooney right now? After all, he is paid to be a curmudgeon. Is it possible that he's just tweaking you? We know he believes this, but he also, over the years, has made politically incorrect comments that have gotten him a lot of attention.

BRENNAN: Well, I wasn't going to come on this show. As I said, I couldn't have cared less about what Andy Rooney said. I have a busy career going on. And to take time out to talk about this is silly, with all due respect. This is like talking about, "Should women vote or should African-Americans own property?"

We're there. We're all there. We're going to continue to be there. And no one cares, frankly, what anyone thinks, Andy Rooney or Steak or anyone. The reality is, women are doing a terrific job. So I absolutely agree with you. This is silly. And we would all be better off, I think, as a culture and a society, if Andy Rooney had not said it or if we hadn't played it up and made it a big deal, as we are right now. ZAHN: Hey, Steak, where did you get your name?

SHAPIRO: It's a dark, seedy story, Paula. If I tell you, you won't be able to continue the program.

ZAHN: Well, maybe you'll have to come back some other time and share it with all of us.

SHAPIRO: Yes, indeed, I will.

ZAHN: Christine Brennan, Steak Shapiro, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

SHAPIRO: Thanks. I appreciate it.

BRENNAN: Thank you.

ZAHN: We appreciate your time.

Still ahead: Live from New York, a new unauthorized book on "Saturday Night Live" dishes out the dirt.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up: Everyone loves a parade -- well, almost everyone.

When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Does "The Sopranos" knows make Italian-Americans look bad or does it reflect real-life Italian-American members of the mafia? And should Italian-Americans who want to protect their image protest against the mafia families reportedly still operating in New York or pressure New York's mayor to retract his invitation to have two "Sopranos" actors march in New York's Columbus Day Parade?

Well, "The Sopranos" TV show itself recently hinted at its answers to such questions in an episode where mafia criminals defend Columbus' images by trying to stifle protests against him. New York City's parade is next Monday.

And joining me now Columbus Citizens Foundation Vice President Frank Fusaro.

Welcome. Good to see you.

FRANK FUSARO, VICE PRESIDENT, COLUMBUS CITIZENS FOUNDATION: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

ZAHN: What is it you want from the mayor? Do you want him to disinvite these actors to march in the parade?

FUSARO: Well, first of all, we have a great deal of respect for the mayor. As an ethnicity, an ethnic group, I think we supported the mayor in record numbers. So let's not separate the issue from the man. We respect the man.

But we would like him to reconsider, because we really feel, in our heart of hearts -- although we haven't had direct contact with him, dealing through some of his associates -- that, if he understood our feelings, if he understands how passionate we were about the parade and about what we are doing, that this would have never happen.

ZAHN: The mayor declined our invitation to appear on the show tonight. But here is what he had to say about why he invited Lorraine Bracco in the first place and Dominic Chianese.

He said -- quote -- "Both of them are very proud of their Italian heritage. I didn't invite them as members of 'The Sopranos.' I didn't invite anybody else from `The Sopranos' cast. What I did is invite two people that I think would be thrilled to march. And it was a nice way for the city to say thank you."

Doesn't he have the right to do that?

FUSARO: Well, he certainly has the right to honor them. He certainly has the right to cite good works that we have done. And we have no issue with the specific actors. It's the characters they portray. And it's impossible to separate these actors from their characters at this point in time. Let's be real. This is a very successful, popular show.

ZAHN: Sure.

FUSARO: And when you see these two individuals, you're not going to see the individual people that they are. And we have no indication that they're not fine people. But you're going to see the characters that they portray. And you're going to see that show. And that is what we take exception to.

ZAHN: But the argument they make is, you should be able to separate them from the characters they play.

Here is what Lorraine Bracco has said about how thrilled she is to be included in the parade. She said: "I am glad the mayor acknowledged me as a successful Italian-American actress. As a native New Yorker and an activist, it's a privilege to march next to the mayor.

And then Dominic Chianese said this: "As a citizen of New York, I'm proud to march with Mayor Bloomberg in the Columbus Day Parade."

What do you say to them?

FUSARO: Well, I would say the Columbus Day Parade is 58 years old and we have not had a request from them prior to them being on "The "Sopranos" to march in that parade or step up and take pride in their Italian-American heritage.

ZAHN: Maybe it's because they didn't have such high profiles back then. FUSARO: Well, that may be true. But we don't have high profiles. And we really do put our heart and soul into the parade, which is run for philanthropic purposes, by the way.

And, again, we have no exception. And we have no exception to them as individuals, but it's just the characters that they portray. And them marching in the parade is just -- it's counter to what we stand for and who we are. I'm not going to judge how they make a living. It's up to them to decide how they want to make a living. But the portrayal -- and it's not just against Italian-Americans, who are portrayed in the most boorish and base manner.

It's the violence. It's women being murdered on the -- beaten to death in episodes of the show that we are against. I have a 25-year- old daughter studying, getting a Ph.D. at Columbia right now. I don't want her associated with that kind of stuff. And we do get painted with that brush.

ZAHN: How do you explain the success of the show, then?

FUSARO: Oh, you take "Dallas" or "Dynasty," which were two wildly successful shows, give them unlimited sex, give them violence, and it plays to the most base instincts of people. And I'm not arguing that the show is not popular. It's obviously popular, but that makes it more insidious.

ZAHN: Let's come back to the issue of the parade.

You've got American Indians out there saying there should not be a Columbus Day celebration at all. They argue that Christopher Columbus began the transatlantic slave trade. And they say he is responsible for the slaughter of Indian people. They say you should not be celebrating this at all. Why are they wrong?

FUSARO: Well, I spent a lot of years in school learning about a lot of things in history. And Christopher Columbus was one of them. And he was always painted as an explorer, as a hero, and so on and so forth.

In the last five or 10 years, he's been painted as a slave trader and all these other things. I don't know where the issue lands at that point. I know it took a lot of nerve to assemble that group of men and make that voyage that was so fraught with danger. So if he's an explorer, God bless him.

But that is only one of the reasons we do the parade. This is about Italian pride. This is about an ethnicity that came to New York City and to the United States with absolutely nothing, that were not accepted and were not embraced. And they did -- they accomplished the great American story. And we want others to follow in our footsteps.

ZAHN: Well, we hope you have a successful parade. It may not end up exactly the way you want it, but I know those of us who live here always look forward to the parade.

FUSARO: Yes. Thank you. ZAHN: Thank you, Frank Fusaro, for your time. Appreciate your dropping by.

Next: an uncensored look behind the scenes at "SNL." That would "Saturday Night Live."

Don't go away.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

JOHN BELUSHI, ACTOR: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: TV's longest-running comedy show and the impact it's made on real life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

WILL FERRELL, ACTOR: I don't know what that was all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: If you're watching us tonight -- and you know who you are -- there is a good chance you get a good chunk of your news from CNN. But a lot of Americans don't learn about what is happening in their country or the world through CNN or other news outlets.

For more than a quarter-century now, millions of Americans have turned to a weekly late-night show to see what a bunch of smart, irreverent young comedians had to say about the state of the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's Saturday night!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN (voice-over): Seven familiar words that have become an indelible part of our language and of American pop culture, nearly three decades of comedy on the edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: Well, the power is working OK. I am going to turn her around and see if I can get a look at her.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZAHN: At first, it was just a Saturday night filler that replaced reruns of "The Tonight Show." Johnny Carson hated NBC airing his show on the weekends. "

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: "SNL" was something different, something we had never seen before, a new brand of comedy with a new class of stars, in the beginning, a clan of not-so-well-known, not-so-ready-for-prime-time players.

But today, just look at some of the graduates' phenomenal names: Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, Bill Murray, Dana Carvey, Robert Downey Jr., Mike Myers, Adam Sandler. And then there is Eddie Murphy, who almost didn't get the job. Chris Rock once called it the Harvard of comedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

GILDA RADNER, ACTRESS: One time I, Roseanne Rosanna-Danna, was eating a sparerib. And a little shred of it got caught here. Well, I thought I was going to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: On screen, they made us laugh. Yet, off screen, there was great sadness: rampant drug use and lives lost way before their time, alleged backstage rivalries, warring personalities, women and minorities fighting to have their voices heard. The best in Hollywood came out to be part of the fun, sometimes even surprising us and the show's cast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You going to let her talk to you that way or what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody talks to me like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: In the midst of all the fun, there were also the serious moments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: New York City is open for business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, after September 11, telling America and the world that it was OK to laugh again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

LORNE MICHAELS, "SNL" CREATOR: Can we be funny?

GIULIANI: Why start now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Some say that it is moments like these that prove "Saturday Night Live" was more than just a television show. It was a revolution. No matter what you think, most agree that, through the years, it made us laugh at ourselves, our idols, and our presidents in a way we never thought possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

FERRELL: Sorry, Dick. I'll go over to my desk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: When we come back: a new book whose authors had unprecedented access behind the scenes at "Saturday Night Live," which brings us to tonight's edition of "Off the Radar," catching us up on an original cast member.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")

STEVE MARTIN, ACTOR: Slap my hand, black soul man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Original "Saturday Night Live" cast member Garrett Morris is an African-American trailblazer. He played a vital role in launching what would become America's most popular sketch show. But when Morris left "SNL" in 1980, the fame did not follow.

Over the next few years, Morris disappeared from public life. The obscurity took a heavy toll. And by the early 1980s, he was abusing drugs.

GARRETT MORRIS, ACTOR: If you want to know whether I experimented with some drugs, yes, I did. But that's about all I'm going to -- I don't think anybody really deserves to know it. I don't think it's anybody's business. I think my positive contribution to society is what is important.

ANNOUNCER: But, for a while at least, Morris' life continued to be anything but positive. In 1994, he was nearly shot to death by a robber. The bullet ricocheted through his body, hitting vital organs. It took him months to recover.

What happened to Morris after that? The answer when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to former "SNL" cast member Garrett Morris after his recovery from a near-fatal shooting? He came back strong, landing a five-year run on "The Jamie Foxx Show," a hit sitcom. And this fall, he's taking on a new role as editor of the new magazine "Savant." The multicultural publication will cover everything from arts to politics.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Well, with more than a quarter century of stars, egos and pressure, "SNL" has generated more than its share of behind-the-scenes legends. And that was before the two authors of a new book on "SNL" got unprecedented access and cooperation from the principals behind the show.

Earlier, I spoke with the authors of "Live From New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And joining me now, the authors of "Live From New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live": Tom Shales and James Andrew Miller.

Congratulations, gentlemen.

JIM MILLER, CO-AUTHOR, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Thanks.

TOM SHALES, CO-AUTHOR, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Thanks.

ZAHN: No. 1 on Amazon.com.

MILLER: Take it any day.

ZAHN: Not bad.

Do I have to call you James Andrew throughout the interview?

MILLER: Yes, please.

ZAHN: Oh, good. Thank you.

So you describe this as the uncensored history. Jim, what was uncensored before?

MILLER: Well, I think a lot of people didn't even talk before. One of the things Danny Aykroyd told us, for instance, was, he had not participated in the books prior to this. And so he took off his leather jacket, sat down on the coach with us and said, "OK, I'm prepared to talk." And so we really took it, like LBJ said, with the bark off. If you put your name on a story, we printed it. It was a lot of fun.

ZAHN: You two had unbelievable access in getting to not only the players on air, but off air. Why were they so cooperative?

SHALES: Well, I don't want to sound like the long-suffering author, but it wasn't easy. Some of them took months and months to get to. The magic key was Lorne Michaels. He put his blessing on the book from the very beginning.

ZAHN: The executive producer of the show.

SHALES: Yes.

So, once we had his OK and his approval, it was a lot easier. But, still, we are dealing with prima donnas. We're dealing with sometimes very self-important people. Some people were very nice and cooperative, couldn't have been easier or more pleasant to get to. Other people, not so nice.

ZAHN: And you had plead and beg for information on stories confirming the rampant use of drugs in this show. What did you learn?

SHALES: Pot-smoking was as common as drinking Pepsi or Coke. So I don't consider that bad. And some people think it helps the creative juices flow.

Al Franken, one of their long-time writers and also often performer on the show, said he -- the coke was used to stay awake, because Lorne Michaels imposed this insane structure on the show, which is basically key to his own circadian rhythm, which is, he likes to get up at 3:00 p.m., have breakfast and then go into work. And so they would work all night and still do sometimes, I think, work all Wednesday night, writing, all Tuesday night writing, writing, writing.

And Al said, "Well, I really just took coke to make sure nobody else took too much coke."

ZAHN: Wow.

SHALES: Of course, Chevy's immortal line, which is actually quoting Lorne, "Coke is God's way of telling you, you have too much money."

But in those days, they didn't know that the outcome could be as tragic as we now know, with John Belushi's death and with many other deaths since, whether among the show's cast or not.

ZAHN: Was there ever a time in the taping of the history of this show where the players were so messed up, they were worried they could not even get the show on the air? MILLER: A lot of guest hosts would fall for a prank of Belushi, because he would be -- Richard Dreyfuss, for instance, told us a story in the book, where he was rehearsing during the dress rehearsal for the show. And it looked like Belushi was just drugged out of his mind. And he thought to himself, there is no way this guy is going to be able to go on.

But somehow John managed, every Saturday night at 11:30, to rise to the occasion. I think there are a couple of sketches, though, you can tell, particularly when he did Joe Cocker, where you know he was heavily medicated.

SHALES: And one night, he did Fred Silverman. And Danny Aykroyd told us -- who was, of course, his closest friend in the world, and best friend, I think -- he said, "That was pure blow" the night that John played Fred Silverman. In other words, he was pretty coked up.

They would have paramedics standing by sometimes for John. And his doctor was often in attendance in the audience, whether he was a patron of the arts or whether he wanted to be there just in case, whatever.

MILLER: A little suspicious.

ZAHN: Is there any anger from any of these people that he was not better protected? It's on thing to have a medic out there on duty if the guy got into trouble. But it's another thing to have management say: "You know what? This has gotten out of hand."

MILLER: Well, one of the biggest surprises, I found, in talking to people, Jane Curtin stopped talking to Lorne Michaels after the first year. She was so appalled by what was going on with John, and she said, "Look, we have to do something to stop him."

SHALES: John Belushi, he was so much more than a person who abused drugs. And I hope -- we try to bring this across in the book. And he was a very lovable person.

I met him many times when he wasn't -- we weren't friends, but I met him many times when he was not out of his mind on drugs. And Jim Belushi, his brother, is wonderful in the book. And he says everyone tried to get him to stop. But John had such a magnetic personality and such a spell over people. Jim says, "If you were with my brother, in 20 minutes, he could have you dancing on a cigarette machine." I don't know why that image came to his mind.

And he would borrow money from everyone. He would crash at everyone's house, sometimes accidentally setting them on fire.

ZAHN: Oops.

SHALES: But everyone loved him. He was not just a drug addict.

ZAHN: You've given us some insights as to what this place is like behind the scenes. Let's talk a little bit about the traction that some of the political humor has had. We've all heard the story about Al Gore's campaign forcing him to watch one of the "Saturday Night Live" skits to improve his performance the next time around.

MILLER: Well, after the first debate, Gore had this habit of going (INAUDIBLE) when Bush was talking.

And the staff really didn't know how tackle it. And, of course, the next week, "Saturday Night Live" went to town on that. And Darrell Hammond, who was playing Gore, kept on doing it over and over again. So they had Gore watch the sketch. And he laughed. And, sure enough, the next debate, he didn't do it.

ZAHN: Before we let you go, you obviously are a television critic and an acknowledged fan of this show. Where do you see this show going from here?

SHALES: As far as it wants. As long as Lorne keeps up his enthusiasm and wants to stay with the show -- and he's done that for almost three decades now, and it's amazing to watch -- I think the show will thrive. And when he leaves, that is a whole other story. Who knows what will happen to it then.

ZAHN: Well, I appreciate both of you dropping by. Congratulations, Tom.

SHALES: Thank you so much.

ZAHN: Congratulations, James Andrew, otherwise known as Jim in this studio.

MILLER: Thanks for having us.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time. And continued good luck to both of you.

MILLER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tomorrow: National Coming Out day. We will be talking with Candace Gingrich and Betty DeGeneres on coming out and having family come out.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Madonna and her director husband, Guy Ritchie.

Thanks so much joining us tonight. And for all of us here at CNN, good night. I hope to see you tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING" -- that is, if you're up early enough. Please join me at 7:00 a.m. Eastern.

Until then, good night.

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