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Hunt for Serial Sniper Intensifies After Shooting Today; Congress Green-Lights President's Plan to Use Force Against Iraq

Aired October 11, 2002 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, HOST: Good evening, I'm Paula Zahn, in for Connie Chung.
Tonight: The hunt for a serial sniper intensifies.

ANNOUNCER: Another shooting.


MAJ. HOWARD SMITH, SPOTSYLVANIA COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Obviously, we're dealing with an individual that is extremely violent and obviously doesn't care.


ANNOUNCER: The search for the killer.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a report that a white van was seen driving erratically in and around traffic.


ANNOUNCER: Tonight: inside the mind of a sniper.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's using pretty much textbook military-type tactics.


ANNOUNCER: And should investigators be looking into this?

Congress green-lights the president's plan to use force against Iraq.


SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: This is not a blank check for the use of force against Iraq for any reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: Plus: Have anti-American sentiments grown worse?

Hall of Fame NFL quarterback broadcaster: tonight, why Terry Bradshaw doesn't want to talk football.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Paula Zahn.

ZAHN: And good evening. Thanks so much for joining us.

Tonight, police investigate another deadly shooting in the area around Washington. Hundreds of police scour the highways around D.C., looking for a suspicious white van with a ladder on its roof as they press their search for the killer.

CNN's Ed Lavandera has the latest on the hunt for the serial sniper.


ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Around 9:30 Friday morning, a Virginia State Trooper was working a traffic accident across the street from this Exxon gas station in Fredericksburg. But that didn't keep a gunman from shooting and killing a 53-year-old Philadelphia man standing at the gas station. The trooper ran to help the victim. He didn't see who fired.

SMITH: Obviously, we're dealing with an individual that is extremely violent and obviously doesn't care.

LAVANDERA: Witnesses reported hearing a single gunshot, although authorities won't confirm how many shots were fired. Two major roadways were shut down as police launched an intense search for a white Chevrolet Astro minivan, like this one with a ladder rack.

This attack, like the last three sniper shootings, took place less than a mile from a major highway. Two people were seen in the fleeing vehicle. Around the gas station, investigative teams hunted for clues and evidence, at one point putting a piece of paper in a plastic bag, although police won't talk about its significance.

SMITH: Any time we get a shooting right now, we're going to treat it as if it is connected to this case unless it is differently.

LAVANDERA: Ballistic evidence from the Exxon gas station was taken by helicopter to an ATF lab in Rockville, Maryland, to determine whether this shooting was the work of the D.C. area sniper.

Every hour, about 1,000 tips poured into the FBI hot line. Authorities are considering beefing up the operation. More than 60 phone lines sometimes haven't been enough.

(on camera): We're awaiting the release of what's being described as a graphic aid in this case. A law enforcement source tells CNN it's an illustration of the suspect's vehicle. That official also says it may include a composite description of vans seen by witnesses at several sniper shootings.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Fredericksburg, Virginia.


ZAHN: And we're going to zero in now on several aspects of what is so far known about the person or persons responsible for terrorizing the Washington suburbs and where this may lead investigators.

We're going to take a look at the location and geographical trends, where the sniper has struck, and some of the clues that have been left behind.

To discuss this now, we are joined by Maurice Godwin, a criminal investigative psychologist and investigative criminal profiler Pat Brown.

Welcome to you both.



ZAHN: Pat, let's start off by talking about the geography that is represented in these crimes. What does it tell us?

BROWN: Well, where they started tells us a lot, because usually you start close to home. This is a place you're most comfortable in. So rather than go far afield and try to figure out which road to go down and how to get out of there -- you get very confused when you're not near home. So this guy probably started near his home or some place at least he's very, very familiar with.

It is interesting, though, that he has gone down to Spotsylvania twice, down to Manassas once. And what is even more interesting is, the location of the Bowie school is on one of the routes that goes directly down that direction as well. So one wonders, what is he doing down in Virginia so many times?

This can be a great aid to the police and to the public, because this guy has some business down there as well. Either he works down there or has a relative down there. He has something going on between Montgomery County and down in Spotsylvania. And he's been gone a lot of the time, so people can look for this guy who has been missing and who has connections to those areas.

ZAHN: Maurice, do you see it that way? Do you think this guy has some kind of master plan? Or is it more random than that?

GODWIN: Well, the killings are not all that random. Picking the locations might be. And I'm not quite sure that picking the victims is random now. I think maybe there might be a pattern to the type of victim he's choosing. But in regards to the geographical profile, as I stated earlier the other day on CNN and other TV shows, that his killings form a distinct wedge shape, with a point down toward Fredericksburg, which is victim No. 7.

ZAHN: And what does that mean?

GODWIN: Well, that means that -- on my research of 54 American serial killers who killed 540 victims, I've found that 80 percent of their home bases fell -- well, first of all, the crimes formed a wedge shape. Over 80 percent of them formed a wedge-shape pattern similar to this sniper's killings.

Second of all, 80 percent of the time out of those 54 killers, their home bases fell somewhere within the wedge shape. And 51 percent of those fell at the point, the far most point. It's sort of like shaped like a pie. And so that's the reason that I said that the killer has a Northern Virginia connection. I kept saying there is a Northern Virginia connection here. And we saw that today.

ZAHN: Do you see that connection today? Clearly, there is no linkage that could be established between this latest shooting at a gas station.


ZAHN: Let's go back to Pat now and see if she agrees with you.

BROWN: Well, Maurice is more studied in the kind of research aspects of this kind of thing.

But I go with mostly logic and the way I've seen other serial killers just pattern themselves. Simply, people act in a human matter. We have all our human behaviors. We go where we're comfortable. We don't like to be where we're not comfortable. And the fact that he's made so many trips down this way to Virginia in the three different routes down there -- and these are the 66 corridor, the 95 corridor. And I can't remember the last one, coming out of Bowie that goes down across a small bridge down to the Spotsylvania area. I'm sure the public might know that better than me, and been on that route.

But those three routes all go down there. And he's not just going to go there for absolutely no reason. And one wonders, when he gets there, is he is holing up there? Is he finding a relative's house to just pop in and say, "Hey, auntie, can I hang here for a while?" just in the area. And she's not even connecting the fact that he's in the area sort of at these kind of times.

ZAHN: Maurice, I know you point to the geography as being compelling evidence. What else do you think the cops have on this guy right now?

GODWIN: I really can't comment, because I really don't know.

In reference to the geography, in my opinion, that the first five killings, that -- and I know that's where typical, such as the other geographic profilers, have probably placed his home based in the area. But in my research, I found that killers tend to distance their crimes a lot of times away from their comfort zone. So, therefore, that's the reason I'm saying -- there's no doubt he's using Interstate 95, just like I said before, 95 up to the belt line. And all the crimes are off the belt line.

And you do another loop, come back by Interstate 66 and back down 95. I feel that the killer lives within the wedge shape between Dale City and in that circle down to Fredericksburg and that he's just distancing his crimes when he committed the crimes up in the city of Maryland, not in the city.

ZAHN: Of course, those are the kind of patterns clearly that investigators are looking at the this hour.

Pat, a final thought on the elusiveness of this psychopath.

BROWN: Well, he's not much different from a lot of serial killers. The problem with serial killers is that they strike where no one can see them. That's their pattern. And that is why it is so hard to catch them. And that's so often why they don't get caught.

This guy is doing it no differently, except that he's using a rifle and he's doing it in a very public way, but yet he's still trying to have no witnesses. And that's why it is going to be difficult to catch him. And that's why we need so many tips coming in from the public to really, really pinpoint who this guy is.

ZAHN: We appreciate both of your perspectives tonight.

Pat Brown, Maurice Godwin, thank you for dropping by.

GODWIN: Thank you very much. Thank you.

BROWN: My pleasure, Paula.

ZAHN: Still ahead: Why are some country radio stations yanking a song by Tim McGraw right off their playlists? Find out. We'll let you know.

ANNOUNCER: Next, we'll hit the streets in Europe, where the president's plan for Iraq has fueled an anti-American fire.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.


ZAHN: Welcome back.

A strong reaction today to last night's vote in Congress granting President Bush the authority to act militarily against Iraq. Former President Jimmy Carter, who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize today, urged Mr. Bush not to act unilaterally against Saddam Hussein. He told Larry King he would not have supported the congressional resolution. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would have voted no had I been in the Senate. I think that there's no way that we can avoid the obligation to work through the United Nations Security Council, to wait until we do get that condemnation of Saddam Hussein, to force him, through the United Nations, to comply completely with inspections of an unlimited nature and to make sure that we do destroy all his weapons of mass destruction and his ability to produce nuclear weapons in the future.


ZAHN: On the other hand, former first lady and now New York Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton broke with many in her party and actually supported the resolution.


SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war. It is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president. And we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort.


ZAHN: Well, last night's vote has some far-reaching consequences, nowhere more so than in Iraq.

CNN's Baghdad bureau chief, Jane Arraf, joins us now from the Iraqi capital.

Good evening, Jane.


ZAHN: Has there been any official reaction from the Iraqi government to this vote last night?

ARRAF: There has, actually. And, as you might expect, it is pretty dramatic, as Iraqi statements tend to be.

State-run Iraqi TV says that this is just an example that the United States is abandoning the U.N. And it goes on to say that this is actually the beginning of the end of the American empire of evil. A lot of people here feel that this really is a worrying sign that the United States is in fact prepared to go alone, something they had expected, of course, but this kind of entrenches it -- Paula.

ZAHN: Another story that got a lot of attention here today was a front-page story in "The New York Times" which outlined a plan they say the administration was considering for a post-war Iraq. Now, the White House poured a little cold water on that today. But how would Iraqis respond to a plan like this that was set forth today?

ARRAF: Well, they certainly wouldn't applaud it.

It is kind of an amazing thought here to many people that the Americans believe that, even if they're not entirely happy with their president, they would welcome American troops in the street. As one Iraqi puts it, "I wouldn't want to see American soldiers outside my house in my street, because it is my street and it is my country." And I think that's something that perhaps we underestimate, that sense of national identity, even among the Shias and among the Kurds.

There really is a very strong sense that they are Iraqi. And like other Arabs on the street and in the region and in the Muslim world as well, they really have a very hard time with the thought of the U.S. coming in and occupying them -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Jane Arraf, reporting from Baghdad tonight. Appreciate that live update.

But anti-American sentiment isn't just limited just to countries hostile to the U.S. or linked only to American's hard-line position on Iraq. In countries that are traditional allies of the United States, in Europe, for example, there is growing anti-American sentiment, fueled by issues other than Iraq.

As Walter Rodgers reports, a segment of Europeans see America as a heavily armed bully.


CROWD: Bush, Blair, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) how many kids have you killed today!

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One week it is London, the next, another European city, rolling anti-war demonstrations. These are the children of Europeans who demonstrated against Vietnam and later NATO missile deployments. Now their protests are fueled by Europe's growing Muslim population.

Anti-American? Somewhat. But more specifically: anti-George W. Bush, from the streets to European intellectuals.

ROSEMARY HOLLIS, ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: There is a lot of snobbism, a lot of disdain for the lack of intellect and lack of erudition of George Bush.

RODGERS: It is not just Iraq. Europeans point out President Bush pulled out of the Kyoto environmental agreement, walked away from chemical weapons and nuclear test ban treaties, and thwarted the international criminal court.

JOHN RITCH, DIRECTOR, WORLD NUCLEAR ASSOCIATION: Taken together, these steps send an unmistakable message to the world that the United States sees itself less as the leader of the international system than being above the international system.

RODGERS: The European view is that United Nations participation is critical to world order. They see President Bush as a cowboy, Vice President Cheney and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, the posse.

HOLLIS: Some Europeans think the U.S. administration has been hijacked by some rather frightening characters who are determined to fight evil in the world in the name of a good that they personally describe.

RODGERS: Europe's unease is also about power. America has it. Europe is militarily weak. Europe distrusts how President Bush will use American power.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I know the worry over Iraq.

RODGERS: Britain's prime minister, Tony Blair, loyally supports the White House, but his public and Parliament are worried.

GEORGE GALLOWAY, LABOR M.P.: The British people instinctively know that adding another war to the Middle East, where there are already quite enough wars already, doesn't seem like a sensible idea.

RODGERS: The decisive factor in the reelection of German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder was his skillful, if not shameless playing of the anti-American card, declaring Germany will in no way participate in a war against Iraq.

DOMINIQUE MOISI, EDITOR, "POLITIQUE ETRANGERE": The bad guy of the Europeans and the Atlantic family in U.S. eyes is no longer France, but the Federal Republic of Germany.

RODGERS: To much of Europe, especially the French, Americanization and globalization are seen as greater threats than an Arab despot beyond the horizon.

MOISI: What Europeans are resenting is, to a large extent, the fact that they are becoming Americans themselves. They see in America a mirror for their own hopes and fear. And the more Americanized they are, the more they resent it.

RODGERS (on camera): This decoupling of Europe from America now seems likely to only get worse, if nothing else because few in Europe can really fathom the angry scar left on the American psyche by last year's attacks on New York and Washington.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, London.


ANNOUNCER: Next: why this country music superstar is now in the center of a controversy.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.


ZAHN: A hit song from country singer Tim McGraw is being pulled from the playlists of some radio stations. The single, "Red Ragtop," touches on abortion. And some country stations thinks it sends a bad message to young listeners.

Here are some of the lyrics causing the controversy.


TIM MCGRAW, MUSICIAN (singing): We decided not to have a child. So we did what we did. And we tried to forget. And we swore up and down there'd be no regrets in the morning light.


ZAHN: We tried to contact Tim McGraw and get his view on all of this, but he was unavailable for comment. However, he did post a statement on his Web site defending the song.

It reads: "This is a great, powerful story. It gives you a view into somebody's life as he looks back on the choices he made. In the times that we live in today, a song like this can make you reflect on your own life, where you've been, where you're going."

Steve Giuttari, a radio program director for stations in San Antonio, Texas, doesn't agree with McGraw. He joins us tonight, along with the man who wrote the song's lyrics, Jason White.

Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you both for joining us.



ZAHN: So, Steve, why did you pull the song?

GIUTTARI: Well, it comes down to this, Paula. Our job as radio stations is to play songs listeners like. If they like them, we play them a lot more. If they don't like them, we pull them off.

Country music is about everyday life. This is an everyday life song about one of the most controversial issues of our time, abortion. Tim McGraw, being such a high-profile artist, obviously put this out to the forefront a lot quicker than maybe an unknown artist who might have sang this song. And our listeners just did not react well to this. We had a lot of negative reaction. And that's why we pulled the song.

ZAHN: Steve, what do listeners tell you?

GIUTTARI: They just don't want to hear that kind of song on the radio. Specific comments: "That's a subject that I don't want my kids to hear about." I think it's parental concern. Country radio is all about family. It is a very family-friendly format.

And I think that is something that parents want to decide on their timetable when they want to approach those issues if at any point in the future with their children.

ZAHN: Jason, was it your intent to inflame all these emotions surrounding the issue of abortion?

GIUTTARI: No, absolutely not. In fact, I don't even consider this song to be a song about abortion. It is mentioned in the song, but the song is about a relationship between two people, something that happened a long time ago and didn't work out, and about looking back on choices that you make.

And it seems to me that those people who think the song is about abortion and are upset about it ought to really listen to the whole song, because, to me, it is a positive message in the end.

ZAHN: Did you miss that whole part of the message, Steve?

GIUTTARI: No, I didn't. But I think there is something we have to remember, Paula. The average attention span of Americans is about eight seconds long. When people tune into the radio, they're not going to sit there and just engulf the entire song a lot of times. They're going get what they get out of it that is going to be their own personal meaning, their own personal belief of the song.

To me, the song is about two young people who are green and they had to make a difficult decision. And it is more about how they tried, as much as they loved each other, to make it together, and they didn't make it together. It's about reflection. But a lot of listeners are not going to find that song that way. They're not going to hear that in the song. And that's the problem, I think, we're encountering.

ZAHN: Jason, let me ask you this. Do you think that that puts Steve in the censorship business?

WHITE: Well, he's got a difficult choice to make. If he gets a lot of complaints from people, he's got to be true to his audience.

On the other hand, there have been a lot of stations that pulled the song at first because of complaints and then re-added it to their playlist because, once people heard the song a few times and got the full message, they weren't so upset about it anymore. So my understanding is that there are only a very few stations that are still not playing the record.

ZAHN: Steve, you probably heard what Jason said. He respects the job you have. And you don't want to alienate listeners. But how do you explain this, that this song has actually jumped from 34 to No. 18 on the top country singles and track charts?

GIUTTARI: Well, you explain that pretty easily, Paula. You know, how many times a song is played is tracked among radio stations throughout the country. So the reason it would jump that high is because there probably are a lot of radio stations who are playing it quite a few times.

Now, our radio stations, we played it a lot out of the gate because Tim McGraw is one of the big seven country artists. So, that being the case, it really brought it to the forefront a lot quicker than it would if we were only playing it a few times. And we got a lot of negative reaction. So that's how it would jump from 34 to 18.

Those numbers really wouldn't describe to you how well the song is doing, or it wouldn't tell you about the feedback. It would just say, well, this is how many times these radio stations have played it.

ZAHN: Do you view, though, Steve, part of your job as being a censor? I think Jason described this song as pretty much tracking the life, the cold hard reality of a guy who's had some tough luck.

GIUTTARI: Not at all, Paula. Our job is simply to be entertainers as radio people. And we're not in the censorship business.

As I said before, our job is to play songs for the listener that the listener likes. If they like them, we play them a lot more. If they don't, we pull them off. You know, there could be a lot of reasons why they don't. If an unknown artist had recorded this song, Paula, we wouldn't even be sitting here talking about it. But it is Tim McGraw, so it is a major issue.

ZAHN: Well, Jason, what do you say to folks who think it was -- I know you say the whole message is not about abortion here; it's about a guy's whole life and the reflection on his life. But do you see, when people think that is a little bit irresponsible, that they might have a point there, just the small reference you make to abortion?

WHITE: Well, no, I don't at all.

You know, I played the song -- the song was released on an album of mine called "Shades of Gray" a couple of years ago. I've been playing this song for five years now. And I've had many, many people come up to me and say: "Man, that song really gets to the heart of the issue. I've been through something like that or somebody I know has been through something like that." And people tend to appreciate it.

I think it is an issue that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. And I think that's a problem. I think any time art gets people talking about things that they're reluctant to talk about, it's doing its job.

ZAHN: Steve, finally, very quickly in closing, now that you've heard Jason's defense of the song, will you ever air it again on any of your radio stations?

GIUTTARI: It could be, Paula. If we get positive feedback or we get a lot of feedback saying, "Hey, we want to hear that song," of course we would air it. Our job, again, is to play the songs the listeners want to hear. So we always keep an open mind to those kinds of things.

ZAHN: Thank you for both of your opinions. Steve Giuttari, Jason White, appreciate your input tonight.

GIUTTARI: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Coming up next: coming out at work, a risky career move?

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: one on one with legendary quarterback Terry Bradshaw. He makes talking to Paula a full-contact sport.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.



K.D. LANG, MUSICIAN (singing): Early morning mid-July, anticipation's making me high, the smell of Sunday in our hair, you ran on the beach with Kennedy flair. Sweet, sweet burn of sun and summer wind. And you my friend, my new fun thing, my summerfling.


ZAHN: That was K.D. Lang singing her song "Summerfling." It is being rereleased today, part of a new album to celebrate National Coming Out Day, which marks the anniversary of a 1987 march on Washington for lesbian and gay rights.

National Coming Out Day has become a day for gays to celebrate their pride and renew their calls for equal rights. Coming out is hard for any person. But for those in the media spotlight, it can be even more challenging. Comedian Ellen DeGeneres, for example, came out on national television.


ELLEN DEGENERES, ACTRESS: This is -- this is -- this is so hard, but I -- I -- I -- I -- I think I have realized that I am -- I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word? I mean, why can't I just say -- I mean, what is wrong? Why -- why do I have to be so ashamed? Why can't I just say the truth, I mean, be who I am? I am 35 years old. I am so afraid to tell people. I just -- Susan, I am gay.


ZAHN: Ellen DeGeneres' mother, Betty, supported her fully, even writing a book on all this. But it is not always that easy. Candace Gingrich's life and sexuality was also put in the spotlight when her conservative half-brother Newt Gingrich became speaker of the House.

Candace Gingrich, she prefers the Pennsylvania pronunciation of her name. Both Betty and Candace join me now.

Welcome. Good to see the two of you.


ZAHN: Can you explain to everybody out there why you need this day? CANDACE GINGRICH, HRC FOUNDATION: Why, there is still a lot of misinformation and stereotypes about gay people or what it means to be gay that persist out there.

What we know is that, when people know someone who is gay, they understand that a lot of those stereotypes aren't accurate. They get to know that some of the myths and the misconceptions are just false. And it helps them also better understand why we're fighting for the rights that we're fighting for. It turns ignorance really into understanding.

ZAHN: Is the idea, though, to promote people coming out? Or do you make a value judgment against those who choose not to come out of the closet?

GINGRICH: I try not to make value judgments against anyone.

You know, it is a personal and private journey that each person has to decide when the time is right. Sometimes you'll come out on a television show. Sometimes it will just be you and maybe your best friend. But you know when the time is right. And you shouldn't let anybody tell you when that time is.

ZAHN: Your daughter didn't have such a private journey. It is one thing to come out on television before 42 million Americans. It is another thing to confront your family. And, obviously, she cared most about your opinion of this very personal choice.


ZAHN: How did you react when she told you, "Mom, I'm gay"?

DEGENERES: I had no clues. And I don't know why I didn't have clues, but I didn't. So I was surprised.

And she cried when she told me, because she didn't know if I would reject her, as so many gay men and women can relate to that. They're scared to death to tell their families. But we'd been blessed with a close relationship. Nothing was going to interfere with that. And she gave me the time I needed to get used to this new information about her.

But I feel like I speak out for all the parents who love and support and accept their children unconditionally, gay, nongay, whatever. I have a son who isn't gay. My daughter is. No difference. I love them both. And that's what we do as parents.

ZAHN: Candace, how was it with your family?

GINGRICH: Just as Betty talked about, I wasn't at first willing to give them the time to get used to the new information.

We forget sometimes it took me 20 years to accept who I was as a lesbian. But I thought that, just because it was my parents, my family, that, within 24 hours, they should be fine with it. It took a little bit longer than that. But I was very fortunate that they gave themselves the time to get used to the information, to learn about me and about that part of me, rather than just totally shutting it down and rejecting it.

ZAHN: What is unique about your coming out, though, was that this all came public at a time when your brother was one of the leading conservative voices of the Republican Party. Was that awkward for him?

GINGRICH: It might have been awkward for him. I think that there were some folks in his party who saw it as an embarrassment that he had a sister who was open about being a lesbian.

But I think, soon enough, he understood that it was because I cared very deeply about this issue, that I wasn't doing this to take advantage of his prominence or to make money somehow, but, rather, I cared very deeply about gay people and about gay equality and I had an opportunity to talk about it and have people listen that might not have before, simply because of that contradiction.

ZAHN: What do you say to folks who say, "Quit inundating us with those images and those thoughts"?

Final thought, Betty?

DEGENERES: Well, it isn't a sexual component. When they -- people say heterosexual, the emphasis is on hetero. And when they say homosexual, somehow the emphasis switches to sexual. And it isn't about that.

It is just that some of our family members, our co-workers, our friends happen to be gay. And we need to put a face to that and not have it be an abstract that people get all in a tizzy about.

ZAHN: And your final thought on what the next big hurdle is as you try to lead the life you've led for a number of decades now.

GINGRICH: Well, it actually is the same hurdle that it's been and I think we'll be battling for a while.

At the Human Rights Campaign, we know that people who know someone who is gay understand who we are. They're more willing to fight for an end to workplace discrimination, an end to hate crimes. So, actually, coming out and ending that discrimination is actually tied. The American people are there, like 60, 70 percent supporting an end to the discrimination.

What we need to do is get it to the point where the legislation and the public policy catches up with that opinion.

ZAHN: Thank you...


ZAHN: ... both for your honesty and sharing some very private thoughts with us this evening.

DEGENERES: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Betty DeGeneres and Candace Gingrich -- oh, I said it. That's so hard.


ZAHN: We're all conditioned to saying Gingrich.

And you know what? We're going to talk about another Gingrich right now. In our "Off the Radar" segment: a look back at another Gingrich, Newt.


ANNOUNCER: Newt Gingrich, the outspoken and controversial House speaker, was poised to dominate policy in Washington for years after transforming the GOP into the majority party in Congress in the mid- 1990s. But then came allegations of campaign funding violations.

REP. NEWT GINGRICH (R-GA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: During my first two years as speaker, 81 charges were filed against me. Of the 81 charges, 80 were found not to have merit and were dismissed as virtually meaningless.

ANNOUNCER: A two-year investigation led to a $300,000 fine by the House Ethics Committee. More bad news followed. Democrats made substantial gains in the 1998 congressional elections. There was pressure from his Republican colleagues. And Gingrich abruptly resigned his speakership and the House seat.

What happened to Gingrich after his fall from power? The answer when we return.




ANNOUNCER: So, what has former House Speaker Newt Gingrich been doing since resigning from Congress in 1999? Well, a little of everything. He's a think tank fellow at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. He has a consulting business called the Gingrich Group. And Gingrich recently signed a long-term deal to do political analysis on television.


ZAHN: Hall of Fame quarterback Terry Bradshaw's life is, by every measure, a big success. Since being picked No. 1 in the NFL draft back in 1970, he has scored achievement after achievement: four Super Bowl wins with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And since leaving the gridiron, he's had movie roles, record albums, Emmy-winning sports TV shows.

And he is a best-selling writer. He has just released a new book, a memoir titled "Keep it Simple," that shares his back-to-basics philosophy of life.

And Terry Bradshaw joins us now from Los Angeles.

Good to see you again. How are you?


ZAHN: I'm fine, thanks.

So we just talked about some of the wonderful accolades that have come your way over the years. What is it that might surprise your readers most about you?

BRADSHAW: Oh, I think they would be surprised that I've been divorced three times. They would be surprised that I am an ADD child. They would be surprised that I've been diagnosed depressed pretty much most of my adult life. And I have to take medication for that. That's pretty shocking.


ZAHN: Let's come back to the first point you made: three marriages.


ZAHN: Do you believe in true love?

BRADSHAW: Absolutely. Absolutely.

ZAHN: Have you ever found it?

BRADSHAW: No. No. No. I haven't.

ZAHN: Are you still looking for it?

BRADSHAW: Yes, I think so.

I'm a little frightened, as you could well imagine. I wouldn't want to blow by the marriages and say three marriages, but I'm out here in Hollywood, but very ashamed, very embarrassed. I have two gorgeous daughters from my last wife. As a daddy, it is very hard to sit them down and say to them: "I need something I need to tell you both."

And then the oldest, Rachel, says: "Daddy, we know. You've been married two other times before mommy." And that was very hard for me. But I have never -- never have I once given up on true love or a marriage or being happy with someone. I definitely want to find that person and I definitely want to be married. It is not fun being by yourself. But it hasn't worked. But I'm not afraid of it, no.

ZAHN: Let's come back to the ADD issue you brought up. Was that a help or a hindrance on the field? BRADSHAW: Well, here is what ADD did for me. It allowed -- it's a challenge that I was unaware of as to being able to cope with circumstances in life unprepared, spontaneity, action, unprepared. And you had to do things kind of like by the seat of your pants, fly- by-night, improvise.

And, in football, that worked perfect for me. I wasn't a student of the game. I didn't like complexities of the game. That's why Mike Webster, my center, called a lot of the blitz assignments, rights and lefts. And Chuck Noll took a lot of that responsibility off of me. Now, I didn't know that then. I just have figured that out now.

But I understand that I kept things very simple, very simple. And I formulated in my mind a formula for success on the football field that was not complex. It was one that, if they go this way, I'm going this way. And if they do that, and we can't block them, I've got to blitz control. And I made it simple for me so that I could function and so that I could be successful and our team be successful.

ZAHN: Well, listen, I wish every kid in America could hear you talk about that tonight, so they don't suffer the shame of that diagnosis sometimes.

Let's talk about the depression you've endured. How bad have things gotten along the way? You're a guy, when you look at you on the surface, you've got everything that everybody wants.

BRADSHAW: Of course.

ZAHN: You're Mr. smiley man.

BRADSHAW: I know. And aren't we the ones that people can't find a few years later?


BRADSHAW: I don't want to be one of those guys. I didn't know that. This is the wonderful thing.

I think one of the things you have to do in life -- and I thank God for this -- is the fact that one day I sat down and I said: "You know what, Terry? You're just a mess. You've messed your life up. You've had these horrible relationships. You've had failed businesses. What is it about you that is just so wrong?"

And I went to my preacher and said, "I need some help." And he sent me to Bill Bush (ph), who is a marriage counselor. He and another psychiatrist sat down with me and, over a period of time, came to the conclusion that I had been depressed all these years, tried me on to several different medicines. And I finally found the one that brought things into a balance in my life, where I could respond, where I could take my time and not react immediately, without giving things a careful consideration intellectually.

And it brought a balance and kind of a humor, really, because my friends know me so well. And if I'm not exactly acting the way they think I should be, the question around, "Is he is on his medicine?"


BRADSHAW: Which I find to be very humorous.

But it's just nice to know that there was something wrong with you that was out of your control. And it kind of brings all the answers back. And you go: "OK, I wasn't so stupid. I had problems."

ZAHN: You just mentioned your preacher. I know that what I was most fascinated by this book, "Back to Basics," is the role that faith has played in your life. And I'm wondering, given the deep convictions you have, if it was difficult for you to reconcile the lifestyle you led at one point?

Let's talk about the life of an NFL player: a lot of money, a lot of stuff coming at you. We know, Terry. We know who they are.


It wasn't money, because my career was a career that was played pretty much in fear: fear of losing the game, fear of losing your job. Football wasn't as much fun for me as it was for other people, because you have to win, win, win, win, win, win. And I'm the kind of child or young man that everything was a game, game, game, game, fun, fun, fun.

Football professionally is win, win, win. So when it was over, I was glad it was over so that I could get away from it. The pressure was so great.

ZAHN: But God plays a fundamental role in your life.

BRADSHAW: Well, he does. He does now. He does now, because what happens -- how many times, Paula, have you heard someone say: "You know, I was down on the bottom. I had nowhere to turn. And, finally, I looked up and said, 'Lord, help me'"?

When my wife and I divorced and I had lost my children, I couldn't raise them anymore, and devastated with that, I realized that I needed help. And I didn't need money help. I didn't need fame help, successful help. I needed spiritual help. I needed something greater that was greater than me, greater than any material thing in this world, because nothing had ever made me happy.

And that's when I turned -- I'm a Christian. And I got saved in my barn, which was kind of cool. And that got me started on the road to recovery, and not to success, but really to happiness, because that's really what I wanted. I just wanted to be happy. I wanted to be happy with me. I wanted my kids to be happy with me. I want you to be happy with me.

That was what I wanted in my life. And my faith, my faith, my found faith four years ago Father's Day was the thing that kick- started me off to really enjoying this life I have.

ZAHN: Thanks, Terry. Best of luck to you.

BRADSHAW: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: The name of the memoir is called "Keep it Simple."

Really appreciate your sharing some of your private thoughts with us tonight.

BRADSHAW: My pleasure. Thank you.

ZAHN: We're going to be back in a moment.


ZAHN: And be sure to keep it locked in to CNN all weekend long. We will have continuing coverage of the efforts to find the sniper on the loose.

Monday: the story of two young boys who were convicted of killing their father in Florida. Well, their sentencing is just days away, but a controversy around their legal process looms.

Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," a living legend, Carol Channing, joins Larry with a personal revelation.

Thanks so much for joining us. And for all of us here at CNN, have a good night and a great weekend.


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