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CNN Sunday Morning
Explosion in Indonesia Kills Over 180
Aired October 13, 2002 - 08:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We do have more on the bombings in Bali. The blasts destroyed two crowded clubs in the hub of resort island's night life district. More than 180 people are now dead. CNN's Jakarta bureau chief Maria Ressa joins us from Manila with an update on those bombings and the claim of terrorist ties. Maria, is that confirmed yet?
MARIA RESSA, CNN JAKARTA BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Carol, at this point, it certainly seems clear that not only is it a terrorist attack, but it may actually have ties to al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia, a very well-entrenched network that has been here since 1998, set up initially by Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa.
Now, why do we say and why do officials say this? First, this is consistent with the U.S. government's public stance that it's taken since September 11. Given information from an al Qaeda operative, arrested in Indonesia, now in U.S. custody, the U.S. raised its terror alert warning worldwide to orange, based on information from that al Qaeda operative working in Southeast Asia, that there are suicide bombing plots against interest -- U.S. interests and U.S. citizens in the region. That also has gone out with simultaneous warnings, the U.S. citizens to be cautious in what they do, particularly in Indonesia.
Secondly, this is not an isolated incident. It is the seventh explosion, major explosion in Southeast Asia, both -- all of these seven occurring in the Philippines and in Indonesia. If you will recall October 2 and October 10, explosions in the southern Philippines killed an American soldier and eight Filipinos. A grenade attack in Jakarta on September 23, has been linked by investigators to a radical Islamic cleric, Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph). He is wanted for arrest by Singapore and Malaysia, and has been called al Qaeda's chief operative, al Qaeda's leader here in Southeast Asia.
The group he heads, the Jemaah Islamiah, has been blamed for a similar series of bombings in Indonesia and the Philippines in 2000. And if we look at the chain of events that have happened now, first series of explosions in the southern Philippines on Saturday, an explosion outside the Philippine consulate in Manado, Indonesia, followed a few hours later by the explosions in Bali.
The Indonesian -- the Indonesians have called it the worst terrorist act in history. This is the first time that all Indonesian officials have publicly stated there is the presence of terrorism in their country. That has been a bone of contention for many months now, not only between Indonesia and the United States but also between Indonesia and its neighboring countries -- Carol.
LIN: Maria, why hasn't then Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) been arrested?
RESSA: Well, that's been part of the problem. Indonesia claims that it will not arrest him unless it has concrete evidence. That evidence has been turned over, according to Singapore and Malaysian and Filipino officials. Indonesia claims it is not enough. Part of the problem is that Indonesian has the world's largest Muslim population. Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) has tapped into growing anti-U.S. and anti-western sentiment in Indonesia. He has played on that.
Basically, arresting Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) without sufficient evidence could trigger a domestic backlash against this government. It is a fledgling democratic government. It's the fourth administration in Indonesia in four years. Analysts have pointed out that moving against Bashir (ph) and triggering that domestic backlash could actually topple this government. So Indonesia's had to move very carefully.
In addition, the U.S. government has had to walk a very tight balancing act between continuing pressure behind the scenes on Indonesia, but at the same time, allowing Indonesia to take ownership of the war on terror so that it maintains a unity among its people -- Carol.
LIN: Maria, that's very interesting, because when I spoke with the U.S. ambassador there, he was very tentative when I asked him whether he was satisfied with the way the Indonesian government has been handling the war on terrorism. He was extremely tentative, and what you are describing here sounds look a recipe, frankly, for inaction. What leverage does the United States then have to put more pressure on the Indonesian government to crack down on terrorism?
RESSA: Well, this is why it's so delicate at this point. If the U.S. moves too quickly, too harshly, too strongly, it could trigger a backlash in Indonesia, a country which has until very recently, until today's attack, denied the presence of terrorists and al Qaeda in the region, despite overwhelming evidence from its neighbors.
Secondly, Indonesia must push ahead on its own. No -- no country in Southeast Asia wants to see Indonesia destabilized. Stable, democratic government in Indonesia is very key, not only for Indonesia and the region but for the United States. This is one of the key messages of Osama bin Laden. He wants to topple democratic governments and replace them with Islamic governments. This is Osama -- Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph), the Asian Osama bin Laden, this is his goal. He is living freely and openly in Indonesia, and campaigning for an Islamic state.
Finally, just to wrap up what is facing the U.S. government. The U.S. ambassador is walking -- is a wonderful diplomat in the sense that he is working with Indonesian officials to help them take ownership of the war on terror. At the same time, he is very aware of the dangers, and there are multiple dangers for U.S. interests there. The al Qaeda operatives in the region, the arrests of many of them not only the ones in U.S. custody, but also in custody in Singapore, in Malaysia and in the Philippines have pointed out to several plots that are still active and still able to be triggered at the drop a hat, if you'd call it that.
So he is actually in a position, where, as he said himself, they are evaluating whether or not to keep the U.S. embassy personnel there. What will determine that? Well, really, it depends on whether or not Indonesia does take strong action.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Maria Ressa, reporting live from Manila -- Renay.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: The explosions in Bali are the latest in the string of suspected terrorist attacks. Here to talk more about this latest round in the war on terrorism is CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. He joins us from Washington. Peter, good morning.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: Good morning.
SAN MIGUEL: As we just heard Maria Ressa say, apparently these cells have been active in Indonesia since 1988. What can you tell us about these particular cells and their possible ties to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden?
BERGEN: Well, CNN's actually reported in the past that Ayman al Zawahiri, bin Laden's number two, a very important member of al Qaeda, visited Indonesia. Obviously Indonesia would be a good place. It's -- as Maria earlier said, it's the largest Muslim group of Muslims in the world in one country, 200 million. It's a very large place with all these island, a lot of them remote. So it's a rather good place to relocate. And it's quite possible that a number of al Qaeda have gone to Indonesia or certainly Southeast Asia in general.
I think what we have seen this week -- this is the first time, if indeed this is linked to al Qaeda, that they've attacked tourists. And if you take this together with the -- with the attack earlier this week on the Yemen tanker, the oil tanker in Yemen, it represents I think a shift in al Qaeda's tactics to really attack economic targets.
Tourism is one of the most important industries around the world. Clearly, the oil business is very important to Western economies and the world in general. So these attacks, I think, are designed to really attack economic targets. Previously, al Qaeda tended to focus on attacking U.S. embassies, or military targets. I think this represents a shift in tactics, if indeed both of them are linked to al Qaeda. And I think certainly if they are not al Qaeda itself, they are affiliates of al Qaeda.
SAN MIGUEL: In fact, you mentioned that. You talk about the economic angle on this. I believe the last tape that we heard, audiotape that was purported to be from Osama bin Laden talked about attacking hinges of the economy.
Now, as you mentioned, we have these latest attacks. We don't know if they are attached to al Qaeda yet. The Kuwaiti incident involving the shooting of the U.S. Marine there and the attack on the Yemen oil tanker. I was wondering, do you believe then that there was some kind of a code or some kind of a message in those latest tape that we have heard from supposedly Osama bin Laden and from what U.S. officials believe to be al Zawahiri?
BERGEN: Well, it wasn't really code; it was fairly explicit. I mean, are they related? It's hard to tell. But certainly I think that bin Laden took a very important lessen away from the 9/11 attacks. He gloated over the fact that it cost the American economy $1.4 trillion. Ramzi Binalshibh, who was arrested recently in Pakistan, who was really the operational sort of, I guess, he was the liaison between al Qaeda and Mohamed Atta in the 9/11 attacks. He also in an interview with Al Jazeera television said, "these attacks made the American airline industry have to lay off all these people."
So I think they took away from 9/11 that attacking American economic targets, or Western economic targets would be very useful. And that's why I think those messages in the tapes that you refer to I think are important. And unfortunately, this may represent a new tactic on their part, and in a way, it makes -- it makes the war on terrorism even more sort of dispersed, because Western businesses and American businesses around the world may become targets. And in fact, we have already seen -- I think for the al Qaeda, they talk about the crusaders and the Jews, it's a war against the crusaders.
Well, in that view, Americans of course are number one targets, but we have seen with this attack in Indonesia, most of the people who have been killed in this attack are Australians and a number of Europeans. And I think this represents a very disturbing new phase, where not simply just Americans, but we've seen since 9/11 attacks on German tourists in Tunisia, attacks on French defense contractors in Karachi. So I think that we are going to see more and more Western targets in general, not just the sort of American embassies or American military targets as it were in the past.
SAN MIGUEL: And the message to the other cells from these -- in these audiotapes was overt, as you say. What does that tell you about the lethal effectiveness, if you will, of the training in those camps in Afghanistan, the idea that everybody, all these cells are pretty much autonomous now?
BERGEN: Well, I think that's a very important word, autonomous. In a way, it doesn't really matter who is behind these attacks. The point is, though, you know, certain people have got training. They've sort of got the message. And I think one thing -- there is a phenomenal called leaderless resistance, which the right-wing militia movement in this country developed. I think we're seeing a bit of that with al Qaeda now.
Recently, I don't even remember, there was a couple arrested in Germany, apparently planning to attack the American military base in Heidelberg, Germany. They have absolutely no relationship with al Qaeda. Allegedly they were planning to attack this American military base. This is very disturbing, because it's very hard to find people who have got absolutely no relationship, who are just doing these things on their own. And so, you know, this is -- all of this is bad news.
SAN MIGUEL: And the idea that anybody with a grudge against Western interests, not just anybody who's -- may not be involved with Islamic-type of cases, but just anybody that hates the West.
BERGEN: We saw another good example of this. I mean, again, it's an allegation, but a guy was getting on a plane in Sweden, who supposedly forgot that he had a handgun in his luggage. The plane was going to go to London. Luckily, he was caught. The Swedes have arrested him and held him. They can't prove hijacking, but they're going to charge him on weapons charges. Again, not -- it doesn't appear he has any links to al Qaeda; it seems to have taken this upon himself.
SAN MIGUEL: Peter Bergen is the author of "Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden," and he is our CNN terrorism analyst. Thank you for joining us this morning.
BERGEN: Thank you, Renay.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 13, 2002 - 08:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We do have more on the bombings in Bali. The blasts destroyed two crowded clubs in the hub of resort island's night life district. More than 180 people are now dead. CNN's Jakarta bureau chief Maria Ressa joins us from Manila with an update on those bombings and the claim of terrorist ties. Maria, is that confirmed yet?
MARIA RESSA, CNN JAKARTA BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Carol, at this point, it certainly seems clear that not only is it a terrorist attack, but it may actually have ties to al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia, a very well-entrenched network that has been here since 1998, set up initially by Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa.
Now, why do we say and why do officials say this? First, this is consistent with the U.S. government's public stance that it's taken since September 11. Given information from an al Qaeda operative, arrested in Indonesia, now in U.S. custody, the U.S. raised its terror alert warning worldwide to orange, based on information from that al Qaeda operative working in Southeast Asia, that there are suicide bombing plots against interest -- U.S. interests and U.S. citizens in the region. That also has gone out with simultaneous warnings, the U.S. citizens to be cautious in what they do, particularly in Indonesia.
Secondly, this is not an isolated incident. It is the seventh explosion, major explosion in Southeast Asia, both -- all of these seven occurring in the Philippines and in Indonesia. If you will recall October 2 and October 10, explosions in the southern Philippines killed an American soldier and eight Filipinos. A grenade attack in Jakarta on September 23, has been linked by investigators to a radical Islamic cleric, Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph). He is wanted for arrest by Singapore and Malaysia, and has been called al Qaeda's chief operative, al Qaeda's leader here in Southeast Asia.
The group he heads, the Jemaah Islamiah, has been blamed for a similar series of bombings in Indonesia and the Philippines in 2000. And if we look at the chain of events that have happened now, first series of explosions in the southern Philippines on Saturday, an explosion outside the Philippine consulate in Manado, Indonesia, followed a few hours later by the explosions in Bali.
The Indonesian -- the Indonesians have called it the worst terrorist act in history. This is the first time that all Indonesian officials have publicly stated there is the presence of terrorism in their country. That has been a bone of contention for many months now, not only between Indonesia and the United States but also between Indonesia and its neighboring countries -- Carol.
LIN: Maria, why hasn't then Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) been arrested?
RESSA: Well, that's been part of the problem. Indonesia claims that it will not arrest him unless it has concrete evidence. That evidence has been turned over, according to Singapore and Malaysian and Filipino officials. Indonesia claims it is not enough. Part of the problem is that Indonesian has the world's largest Muslim population. Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) has tapped into growing anti-U.S. and anti-western sentiment in Indonesia. He has played on that.
Basically, arresting Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph) without sufficient evidence could trigger a domestic backlash against this government. It is a fledgling democratic government. It's the fourth administration in Indonesia in four years. Analysts have pointed out that moving against Bashir (ph) and triggering that domestic backlash could actually topple this government. So Indonesia's had to move very carefully.
In addition, the U.S. government has had to walk a very tight balancing act between continuing pressure behind the scenes on Indonesia, but at the same time, allowing Indonesia to take ownership of the war on terror so that it maintains a unity among its people -- Carol.
LIN: Maria, that's very interesting, because when I spoke with the U.S. ambassador there, he was very tentative when I asked him whether he was satisfied with the way the Indonesian government has been handling the war on terrorism. He was extremely tentative, and what you are describing here sounds look a recipe, frankly, for inaction. What leverage does the United States then have to put more pressure on the Indonesian government to crack down on terrorism?
RESSA: Well, this is why it's so delicate at this point. If the U.S. moves too quickly, too harshly, too strongly, it could trigger a backlash in Indonesia, a country which has until very recently, until today's attack, denied the presence of terrorists and al Qaeda in the region, despite overwhelming evidence from its neighbors.
Secondly, Indonesia must push ahead on its own. No -- no country in Southeast Asia wants to see Indonesia destabilized. Stable, democratic government in Indonesia is very key, not only for Indonesia and the region but for the United States. This is one of the key messages of Osama bin Laden. He wants to topple democratic governments and replace them with Islamic governments. This is Osama -- Abu Bakhar Bashir (ph), the Asian Osama bin Laden, this is his goal. He is living freely and openly in Indonesia, and campaigning for an Islamic state.
Finally, just to wrap up what is facing the U.S. government. The U.S. ambassador is walking -- is a wonderful diplomat in the sense that he is working with Indonesian officials to help them take ownership of the war on terror. At the same time, he is very aware of the dangers, and there are multiple dangers for U.S. interests there. The al Qaeda operatives in the region, the arrests of many of them not only the ones in U.S. custody, but also in custody in Singapore, in Malaysia and in the Philippines have pointed out to several plots that are still active and still able to be triggered at the drop a hat, if you'd call it that.
So he is actually in a position, where, as he said himself, they are evaluating whether or not to keep the U.S. embassy personnel there. What will determine that? Well, really, it depends on whether or not Indonesia does take strong action.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Maria Ressa, reporting live from Manila -- Renay.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: The explosions in Bali are the latest in the string of suspected terrorist attacks. Here to talk more about this latest round in the war on terrorism is CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. He joins us from Washington. Peter, good morning.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: Good morning.
SAN MIGUEL: As we just heard Maria Ressa say, apparently these cells have been active in Indonesia since 1988. What can you tell us about these particular cells and their possible ties to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden?
BERGEN: Well, CNN's actually reported in the past that Ayman al Zawahiri, bin Laden's number two, a very important member of al Qaeda, visited Indonesia. Obviously Indonesia would be a good place. It's -- as Maria earlier said, it's the largest Muslim group of Muslims in the world in one country, 200 million. It's a very large place with all these island, a lot of them remote. So it's a rather good place to relocate. And it's quite possible that a number of al Qaeda have gone to Indonesia or certainly Southeast Asia in general.
I think what we have seen this week -- this is the first time, if indeed this is linked to al Qaeda, that they've attacked tourists. And if you take this together with the -- with the attack earlier this week on the Yemen tanker, the oil tanker in Yemen, it represents I think a shift in al Qaeda's tactics to really attack economic targets.
Tourism is one of the most important industries around the world. Clearly, the oil business is very important to Western economies and the world in general. So these attacks, I think, are designed to really attack economic targets. Previously, al Qaeda tended to focus on attacking U.S. embassies, or military targets. I think this represents a shift in tactics, if indeed both of them are linked to al Qaeda. And I think certainly if they are not al Qaeda itself, they are affiliates of al Qaeda.
SAN MIGUEL: In fact, you mentioned that. You talk about the economic angle on this. I believe the last tape that we heard, audiotape that was purported to be from Osama bin Laden talked about attacking hinges of the economy.
Now, as you mentioned, we have these latest attacks. We don't know if they are attached to al Qaeda yet. The Kuwaiti incident involving the shooting of the U.S. Marine there and the attack on the Yemen oil tanker. I was wondering, do you believe then that there was some kind of a code or some kind of a message in those latest tape that we have heard from supposedly Osama bin Laden and from what U.S. officials believe to be al Zawahiri?
BERGEN: Well, it wasn't really code; it was fairly explicit. I mean, are they related? It's hard to tell. But certainly I think that bin Laden took a very important lessen away from the 9/11 attacks. He gloated over the fact that it cost the American economy $1.4 trillion. Ramzi Binalshibh, who was arrested recently in Pakistan, who was really the operational sort of, I guess, he was the liaison between al Qaeda and Mohamed Atta in the 9/11 attacks. He also in an interview with Al Jazeera television said, "these attacks made the American airline industry have to lay off all these people."
So I think they took away from 9/11 that attacking American economic targets, or Western economic targets would be very useful. And that's why I think those messages in the tapes that you refer to I think are important. And unfortunately, this may represent a new tactic on their part, and in a way, it makes -- it makes the war on terrorism even more sort of dispersed, because Western businesses and American businesses around the world may become targets. And in fact, we have already seen -- I think for the al Qaeda, they talk about the crusaders and the Jews, it's a war against the crusaders.
Well, in that view, Americans of course are number one targets, but we have seen with this attack in Indonesia, most of the people who have been killed in this attack are Australians and a number of Europeans. And I think this represents a very disturbing new phase, where not simply just Americans, but we've seen since 9/11 attacks on German tourists in Tunisia, attacks on French defense contractors in Karachi. So I think that we are going to see more and more Western targets in general, not just the sort of American embassies or American military targets as it were in the past.
SAN MIGUEL: And the message to the other cells from these -- in these audiotapes was overt, as you say. What does that tell you about the lethal effectiveness, if you will, of the training in those camps in Afghanistan, the idea that everybody, all these cells are pretty much autonomous now?
BERGEN: Well, I think that's a very important word, autonomous. In a way, it doesn't really matter who is behind these attacks. The point is, though, you know, certain people have got training. They've sort of got the message. And I think one thing -- there is a phenomenal called leaderless resistance, which the right-wing militia movement in this country developed. I think we're seeing a bit of that with al Qaeda now.
Recently, I don't even remember, there was a couple arrested in Germany, apparently planning to attack the American military base in Heidelberg, Germany. They have absolutely no relationship with al Qaeda. Allegedly they were planning to attack this American military base. This is very disturbing, because it's very hard to find people who have got absolutely no relationship, who are just doing these things on their own. And so, you know, this is -- all of this is bad news.
SAN MIGUEL: And the idea that anybody with a grudge against Western interests, not just anybody who's -- may not be involved with Islamic-type of cases, but just anybody that hates the West.
BERGEN: We saw another good example of this. I mean, again, it's an allegation, but a guy was getting on a plane in Sweden, who supposedly forgot that he had a handgun in his luggage. The plane was going to go to London. Luckily, he was caught. The Swedes have arrested him and held him. They can't prove hijacking, but they're going to charge him on weapons charges. Again, not -- it doesn't appear he has any links to al Qaeda; it seems to have taken this upon himself.
SAN MIGUEL: Peter Bergen is the author of "Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden," and he is our CNN terrorism analyst. Thank you for joining us this morning.
BERGEN: Thank you, Renay.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
