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American Morning
Bali Blasts; Interview With Eric Margolis
Aired October 14, 2002 - 07:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to continue our discussion here about what we mentioned a few moments ago, this attack in Bali, 187 right now are confirmed dead, at least two Americans, the greater majority of the victims being from Australia. And still, it is feared that hundreds more are still missing.
That attack in Bali, right along Kuta Beach, the seventh bombing in Southeast Asia in three weeks.
Does this signal a new wave of terror? We're going to talk about that with Eric Margolis in a moment, but first, to Mike Chinoy, standing by on the island of Bali with the latest on a Monday morning there.
Mike -- what are we hearing?
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.
Well, I'm just a few yards from where the bomb went off. Behind me, there's this scene. It's eerily quiet. There are small knots of Indonesian police and small groups of somber bystanders. Throughout the course of the day, many people have brought wreaths and lit candles here to commemorate the people who died.
The death toll now at 187, but there are reports that say that up to 220 Australian tourists are still missing.
Throughout the day, Australian Air Force C-130s have been ferrying some of the most badly injured from Bali to hospitals in Australia, about a four-hour flight away. Many other tourists who have been having their holidays here have been swamping the airport in Bali, desperate to get out of Indonesia any way they can.
A U.S. FBI agent has joined Australian forensics experts. A team from Scotland Yard is on its way, as the investigation picks up. All suspicions now are focusing on local Indonesian Islamic groups suspected of ties with al Qaeda -- Bill.
HEMMER: Mike Chinoy by way of videophone -- thanks -- live in Bali.
Let's talk more about it from Toronto now.
Eric Margolis, a former U.S. Army instructor in strategy and tactics, and also author of "War at the Top of the World," and a long- time observer and expert on the al Qaeda group.
Eric, welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING and good morning to you.
ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR, "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD": Good morning.
HEMMER: Is this al Qaeda?
MARGOLIS: Well, maybe. They are certainly high on the suspect list, but there are also nine militant Islamic groups in Indonesia, who have threatened since September -- or October, rather, to take revenge on Western targets for the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. And there are Australian commando troops, SAS, who have been very active in Afghanistan with the American forces.
So, it's just as possible it's one of these nine groups, or in fact, a small, shadowy group we don't even know of.
HEMMER: Eric, tell me this. The defense minister in Indonesia was giving comments just a short time ago out of Jakarta saying -- quote: "We are sure al Qaeda is here. The Bali bomb blast is related to al Qaeda with the cooperation of local terrorists."
That seems to correlate with what you were just saying, right?
MARGOLIS: Well, nobody wants to admit it's their own people who have committed such a terrible crime. So, it's, perhaps, natural for the Indonesians to say, well, it was al Qaeda; they're from outside of Indonesia.
But there are a lot of angry people in Indonesia. The whole country is in semi-chaos, and it's just as likely it was homegrown.
HEMMER: Why is there no claim of responsibility in cases like these?
MARGOLIS: This is a new tactic of these terrorist groups. They find that they sow more fear and uncertainty and terror by not taking responsibility, and of course, they don't offer themselves as a target.
HEMMER: What do you attribute to the connection with the bombing of the Cole two years to the day, October 12? You had the French tanker in Yemen hit last week; still considered suspicious. You have now two cases in Kuwait in the past week with U.S. Marines coming under fire. What's at work right now?
MARGOLIS: It's certainly an intriguing coincidence. The bombs came on the same day. But I...
HEMMER: Just a coincidence?
MARGOLIS: Well, it could be a coincidence, but it's an intriguing one. It's certainly suspicious.
But I find it very odd that Australians were still picked as a target. You know, Kuta was a big party center. It was sort of like the Acapulco and Tijuana for Australians, and there was a lot of alcohol and drugs there being consumed. And local militant Islamic groups, one called the Defenders of Islam, has been bombing clubs and bars in Indonesia for two years. Nobody has noticed. It could have been them, you know. Australians are not high on al Qaeda's target list.
HEMMER: Yes, what does Jakarta do right now? Most people may not realize it, but the island of Java is one of the most densely- populated regions in the entire world. If al Qaeda is trying to hide out, clearly it appears, at least to the eastern edge of that island, there were a number of places -- towns like Surabayer, Jakarta -- very popular in Indonesia.
What does the government do, though, in terms of a crackdown, when it tries to protect not only its image, but right now, its economy? Because, frankly, after these cases, no one is going to Bali.
MARGOLIS: No, it was a terrible blow to Indonesia's tourist business, and Indonesia needs every dollar it can earn.
Well, you know, the writ of the government in Jakarta does not extend over the whole Archipelago in Indonesia. In fact, there are local rebellions going on in many areas with different paramilitary groups, Christians fighting Muslims and vice-a-versa, terrible massacres going on. And so, the government's control is shaky at best.
And I must say, this is the first time something like this has -- serious has happened in Bali, which is primarily a Hindu area.
HEMMER: Eric, thank you.
MARGOLIS: Thank you.
HEMMER: Eric Margolis again from Toronto with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. I'm sure we'll talk again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired October 14, 2002 - 07:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to continue our discussion here about what we mentioned a few moments ago, this attack in Bali, 187 right now are confirmed dead, at least two Americans, the greater majority of the victims being from Australia. And still, it is feared that hundreds more are still missing.
That attack in Bali, right along Kuta Beach, the seventh bombing in Southeast Asia in three weeks.
Does this signal a new wave of terror? We're going to talk about that with Eric Margolis in a moment, but first, to Mike Chinoy, standing by on the island of Bali with the latest on a Monday morning there.
Mike -- what are we hearing?
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.
Well, I'm just a few yards from where the bomb went off. Behind me, there's this scene. It's eerily quiet. There are small knots of Indonesian police and small groups of somber bystanders. Throughout the course of the day, many people have brought wreaths and lit candles here to commemorate the people who died.
The death toll now at 187, but there are reports that say that up to 220 Australian tourists are still missing.
Throughout the day, Australian Air Force C-130s have been ferrying some of the most badly injured from Bali to hospitals in Australia, about a four-hour flight away. Many other tourists who have been having their holidays here have been swamping the airport in Bali, desperate to get out of Indonesia any way they can.
A U.S. FBI agent has joined Australian forensics experts. A team from Scotland Yard is on its way, as the investigation picks up. All suspicions now are focusing on local Indonesian Islamic groups suspected of ties with al Qaeda -- Bill.
HEMMER: Mike Chinoy by way of videophone -- thanks -- live in Bali.
Let's talk more about it from Toronto now.
Eric Margolis, a former U.S. Army instructor in strategy and tactics, and also author of "War at the Top of the World," and a long- time observer and expert on the al Qaeda group.
Eric, welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING and good morning to you.
ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR, "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD": Good morning.
HEMMER: Is this al Qaeda?
MARGOLIS: Well, maybe. They are certainly high on the suspect list, but there are also nine militant Islamic groups in Indonesia, who have threatened since September -- or October, rather, to take revenge on Western targets for the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. And there are Australian commando troops, SAS, who have been very active in Afghanistan with the American forces.
So, it's just as possible it's one of these nine groups, or in fact, a small, shadowy group we don't even know of.
HEMMER: Eric, tell me this. The defense minister in Indonesia was giving comments just a short time ago out of Jakarta saying -- quote: "We are sure al Qaeda is here. The Bali bomb blast is related to al Qaeda with the cooperation of local terrorists."
That seems to correlate with what you were just saying, right?
MARGOLIS: Well, nobody wants to admit it's their own people who have committed such a terrible crime. So, it's, perhaps, natural for the Indonesians to say, well, it was al Qaeda; they're from outside of Indonesia.
But there are a lot of angry people in Indonesia. The whole country is in semi-chaos, and it's just as likely it was homegrown.
HEMMER: Why is there no claim of responsibility in cases like these?
MARGOLIS: This is a new tactic of these terrorist groups. They find that they sow more fear and uncertainty and terror by not taking responsibility, and of course, they don't offer themselves as a target.
HEMMER: What do you attribute to the connection with the bombing of the Cole two years to the day, October 12? You had the French tanker in Yemen hit last week; still considered suspicious. You have now two cases in Kuwait in the past week with U.S. Marines coming under fire. What's at work right now?
MARGOLIS: It's certainly an intriguing coincidence. The bombs came on the same day. But I...
HEMMER: Just a coincidence?
MARGOLIS: Well, it could be a coincidence, but it's an intriguing one. It's certainly suspicious.
But I find it very odd that Australians were still picked as a target. You know, Kuta was a big party center. It was sort of like the Acapulco and Tijuana for Australians, and there was a lot of alcohol and drugs there being consumed. And local militant Islamic groups, one called the Defenders of Islam, has been bombing clubs and bars in Indonesia for two years. Nobody has noticed. It could have been them, you know. Australians are not high on al Qaeda's target list.
HEMMER: Yes, what does Jakarta do right now? Most people may not realize it, but the island of Java is one of the most densely- populated regions in the entire world. If al Qaeda is trying to hide out, clearly it appears, at least to the eastern edge of that island, there were a number of places -- towns like Surabayer, Jakarta -- very popular in Indonesia.
What does the government do, though, in terms of a crackdown, when it tries to protect not only its image, but right now, its economy? Because, frankly, after these cases, no one is going to Bali.
MARGOLIS: No, it was a terrible blow to Indonesia's tourist business, and Indonesia needs every dollar it can earn.
Well, you know, the writ of the government in Jakarta does not extend over the whole Archipelago in Indonesia. In fact, there are local rebellions going on in many areas with different paramilitary groups, Christians fighting Muslims and vice-a-versa, terrible massacres going on. And so, the government's control is shaky at best.
And I must say, this is the first time something like this has -- serious has happened in Bali, which is primarily a Hindu area.
HEMMER: Eric, thank you.
MARGOLIS: Thank you.
HEMMER: Eric Margolis again from Toronto with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. I'm sure we'll talk again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
