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Sniper on the Loose: How Trained is the Sniper?

Aired October 16, 2002 - 10:13   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Now with few known clues about the identity of the sniper, many have publicly speculated that the shooter may have some military training in marksmanship. But such skills can also be developed in private schools.
Training schools such as the Gunsite Academy in northern Arizona offer numerous courses, including precision rifle firing, what many would consider to be sniper training. Now some question the need to teach long-range shooting techniques.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM DIAZ, VIOLENCE POLICY CENTER: I think it's irresponsible for people who have this knowledge to simply teach it at random to civilians who have -- literally have no business sniping.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: An official with the academy says that it is a mistake to assume that the D.C. area sniper has any training, saying that even a first-time shooter could have carried out these fatal attacks with the proper rifle and the proper scope.

Now our next guest is a world class shooter and a 20-year military veteran. And during his time with the U.S. Army, he earned the designation of sniper qualified. He is a founding member of the Delta Force and he's also the author of the new book "Inside Delta Force: The Story of America's Elite Counterterrorist Unit."

Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney has visited, as I understand it, nine of the shooting scenes and has used his expertise to form some theories of his own.

You've been to nine of these sites, what struck you when you visited these sites?

ERIC HANEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): The meticulous care with which the shooters are selecting the sites from which to shoot, that's more important than anything else to them, and the ability to immediately leave the area unobtrusively once they've taken the shoot.

HARRIS: But what have you learned then about these getaways? Because we were talking about this yesterday quite a bit, and it seems to be mystifying most of the experts we've talked to so far. You think you know how they're getting away?

HANEY: Well certainly, they're just driving away; but there's a bit of deception involved here. In most all of the sites that I've looked at, the shooting takes place near a major intersection just away from an interstate, and I think that's the deception. The original police idea is they're jumping on the interstate and making their getaway.

HARRIS: Right.

HANEY: I don't believe so. I think they're using smaller roads and feeder roads. Because one thing that greatly struck me is the ability of this person, these people, to understand the little alleys and the back ways around the strip malls because this is where the shootings are taking place.

HARRIS: And what do you discern from that?

HANEY: I -- in my own mind I think the person is probably a delivery driver, they've had a lot of experience around the area. And the fact that the Michaels store played a part, was nearby in at least four of them that I looked at, tells me the person may have been a delivery driver. He was familiar with the Michaels, he knows these small strip mall areas, he knows the little back roads and exactly where to go from there.

HARRIS: Speaking of where to go, I read somewhere that you said that you believe these guys are taking right-hand turns wherever they go?

HANEY: I'm positive of it. The way they set up for the shot, it's positioned so that they -- once the shot is taken, the driver then puts the vehicle in gear, he pulls forward and within 20 feet he's making a right-hand turn onto one little feeder lane. When they come out to the first road, they make a right-hand turn so they never have to stop for traffic. They never have to cross a lane.

HARRIS: Which would explain the situation that happened with the last shooting in Falls Church where at that Seven Corners area, which is such a very congested area traffic wise with all the lights that were there, the lights did not pose a problem.

HANEY: No. No. No, they don't.

HARRIS: Interesting.

HANEY: And also, people focus on the victim when they hit the ground, you're not looking outward. In most of these cases, the shots have been fired from inside a vehicle, which muffles the sound. So outside, anyone -- the only thing they'll hear is just sort of a pronounced thump, nothing that they associate with a rifle shot.

HARRIS: Well considering that you're talking about that level of planning, that intricate level of consideration of every single level here, you don't think this was someone with special training, with military training?

HANEY: There's nothing in the military that teaches that at the -- at the very levels that we work at. This is cleverness. Now there's a -- there's always a great deal of cleverness associated with evil.

HARRIS: Interesting.

Well Daryn Kagan is standing by in Montgomery County. You may have heard her moments ago.

HANEY: Yes.

HARRIS: She wants to jump in here -- Daryn..

HANEY: All right.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Eric, I've had the chance to go by some of the sightings of these shootings. I just, and I was talking with Leon about this earlier this morning before we went on the air, I just find it remarkable that anybody found a place to set up and take a shot like this. I'd like to call on your expertise as a shooter and as a marksman to tell us a little bit about exactly how you think this person is doing that.

HANEY: What they're doing most often, not in every case, there -- some of them have a little bit of difference, but there's a great commonality to them. In most of the cases of the strip mall shootings, they pull to the end of a -- of a lane. Now think of when you pull into a strip mall or any parking area at your grocery store, you have the lanes that you drive down with the marked parking spaces left and right.

They pull to the far end of the parking lot where people tend not to want to park. Everyone wants to park up front. They position their vehicle so that the rear of the vehicle faces down a lane. People walk down those same lanes that you drive. Think of it, when you walk to the store. So as they either get out of their car and walk to the store or they're walking back to their car, all the person -- the shooter has to do is take the shot at a person walking straight towards him or straight away.

And for all appearance representation for the shot, it's a person standing still. And all events had a little more -- that first shot at the Michaels store where there's a bullet hole in the window about 6 feet 4 inches above the ground.

HARRIS: Right.

HANEY: And everyone said he shot a window, why? He didn't shoot a window, he shot at a person and missed. There was one person walking around in that area who heard the sharp sonic crack of a bullet go by but didn't recognize what it was and they lived through it.

HARRIS: But every report about that hole in the window was that it was a small hole and we're talking...

HANEY: Oh it is a small hole.

HARRIS: But the bullet that we've been seeing, that's been exhibited as the one that the people -- that the experts believe is the kind that's being used here believe that it was a rather large bullet. That wouldn't -- and we've seen...

HANEY: No.

HARRIS: ... what it can do to a human body. You say that even if that was to hit a window it would make a small hole?

HANEY: It makes a tiny hole. When this -- when this round goes through glass or something hard that thin, it can't dump all of its energy, which it does in a human body.

HARRIS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have a shot of it up on the screen as a matter of fact.

HANEY: Sure.

HARRIS: A graphic shot of that. And as I understand it, you say that -- I've heard from the experts that that bullet technically is about the same size as a .22 bullet, which is small. However,...

HANEY: Yes.

HARRIS: ... the amount of gunpowder in there is a lot larger.

HANEY: Well, yes, it has a lot more power. It has a -- leaves the muzzle at a much, much faster velocity. Leaves the muzzle at better than 3,200 feet per second. So it has a lot of energy.

But in that first shot at Michaels, what I -- what I surmised was that was at one of the longest ranges he attempted a shot, which was 100 meters. Since, he has never attempted a shot at 100 meters at a moving person. In the other cases, the gentleman shot in Manassas at the gas station was shot from across the road at 100 meters. He was standing still. Anyone else who has been moving has been shot at 50 meters.

HARRIS: The boy at school even? I thought that one was...

HANEY: The little boy...

HARRIS: ... from a far distance in the woods.

HANEY: The little boy was walking straight towards the shooter and the range was 75 meters and the shooter was lying on the ground. So he either -- if he intended to kill the little boy, he shot low. My view is that he intended to severely wound the child, which is what he did. There's nothing more damaging than a gut shot, an abdomen shot.

HARRIS: You don't think he intended to kill that boy...

HANEY: Well I...

HARRIS: ... considering that sort of -- that kind of bullet hitting any kind of a small child wouldn't that? HANEY: The only reason the little boy lived was he was -- his aunt was right there, she knew what had happened and he was...

HARRIS: That's right.

HANEY: ... so close to a hospital. Usually that kind of wound, particularly if it cuts the stomach, and the doctors will tell you about that,...

HARRIS: Yes.

HANEY: ... so devastating that had it lasted another 20 minutes, he would not have survived.

HARRIS: All right. Finally, we have to go real quickly here, but I want to know have you seen or heard anything that would dissuade you from believing that there were two people involved here?

HANEY: No, I'm convinced there are two.

HARRIS: You're convinced there are two?

HANEY: They're two. They're operating in tandem. One shoots while the other either drives the vehicle and is sitting in the driver's seat watching. He's also pulling security. He tells the shooter, OK, no one's nearby us right now. When you have a person in your sights, take the shot. Then when the shot is fired, the driver slips it into gear and they unobtrusively pull way. Inside of 20 seconds, they're a couple of blocks away.

HARRIS: Boy, this is awfully sobering. Very sobering.

HANEY: Yes, it is.

HARRIS: Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney, thank you very much. Appreciate the expertise.

HANEY: Sure -- Leon (ph).

HARRIS: Hope to talk to you again about this, perhaps after we get this solved and get some answers and all.

HANEY: Well, let's hope it's helpful.

HARRIS: Yes, good deal. Thank you very much for your time.

HANEY: All right. You bet.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 16, 2002 - 10:13   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Now with few known clues about the identity of the sniper, many have publicly speculated that the shooter may have some military training in marksmanship. But such skills can also be developed in private schools.
Training schools such as the Gunsite Academy in northern Arizona offer numerous courses, including precision rifle firing, what many would consider to be sniper training. Now some question the need to teach long-range shooting techniques.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM DIAZ, VIOLENCE POLICY CENTER: I think it's irresponsible for people who have this knowledge to simply teach it at random to civilians who have -- literally have no business sniping.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: An official with the academy says that it is a mistake to assume that the D.C. area sniper has any training, saying that even a first-time shooter could have carried out these fatal attacks with the proper rifle and the proper scope.

Now our next guest is a world class shooter and a 20-year military veteran. And during his time with the U.S. Army, he earned the designation of sniper qualified. He is a founding member of the Delta Force and he's also the author of the new book "Inside Delta Force: The Story of America's Elite Counterterrorist Unit."

Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney has visited, as I understand it, nine of the shooting scenes and has used his expertise to form some theories of his own.

You've been to nine of these sites, what struck you when you visited these sites?

ERIC HANEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): The meticulous care with which the shooters are selecting the sites from which to shoot, that's more important than anything else to them, and the ability to immediately leave the area unobtrusively once they've taken the shoot.

HARRIS: But what have you learned then about these getaways? Because we were talking about this yesterday quite a bit, and it seems to be mystifying most of the experts we've talked to so far. You think you know how they're getting away?

HANEY: Well certainly, they're just driving away; but there's a bit of deception involved here. In most all of the sites that I've looked at, the shooting takes place near a major intersection just away from an interstate, and I think that's the deception. The original police idea is they're jumping on the interstate and making their getaway.

HARRIS: Right.

HANEY: I don't believe so. I think they're using smaller roads and feeder roads. Because one thing that greatly struck me is the ability of this person, these people, to understand the little alleys and the back ways around the strip malls because this is where the shootings are taking place.

HARRIS: And what do you discern from that?

HANEY: I -- in my own mind I think the person is probably a delivery driver, they've had a lot of experience around the area. And the fact that the Michaels store played a part, was nearby in at least four of them that I looked at, tells me the person may have been a delivery driver. He was familiar with the Michaels, he knows these small strip mall areas, he knows the little back roads and exactly where to go from there.

HARRIS: Speaking of where to go, I read somewhere that you said that you believe these guys are taking right-hand turns wherever they go?

HANEY: I'm positive of it. The way they set up for the shot, it's positioned so that they -- once the shot is taken, the driver then puts the vehicle in gear, he pulls forward and within 20 feet he's making a right-hand turn onto one little feeder lane. When they come out to the first road, they make a right-hand turn so they never have to stop for traffic. They never have to cross a lane.

HARRIS: Which would explain the situation that happened with the last shooting in Falls Church where at that Seven Corners area, which is such a very congested area traffic wise with all the lights that were there, the lights did not pose a problem.

HANEY: No. No. No, they don't.

HARRIS: Interesting.

HANEY: And also, people focus on the victim when they hit the ground, you're not looking outward. In most of these cases, the shots have been fired from inside a vehicle, which muffles the sound. So outside, anyone -- the only thing they'll hear is just sort of a pronounced thump, nothing that they associate with a rifle shot.

HARRIS: Well considering that you're talking about that level of planning, that intricate level of consideration of every single level here, you don't think this was someone with special training, with military training?

HANEY: There's nothing in the military that teaches that at the -- at the very levels that we work at. This is cleverness. Now there's a -- there's always a great deal of cleverness associated with evil.

HARRIS: Interesting.

Well Daryn Kagan is standing by in Montgomery County. You may have heard her moments ago.

HANEY: Yes.

HARRIS: She wants to jump in here -- Daryn..

HANEY: All right.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Eric, I've had the chance to go by some of the sightings of these shootings. I just, and I was talking with Leon about this earlier this morning before we went on the air, I just find it remarkable that anybody found a place to set up and take a shot like this. I'd like to call on your expertise as a shooter and as a marksman to tell us a little bit about exactly how you think this person is doing that.

HANEY: What they're doing most often, not in every case, there -- some of them have a little bit of difference, but there's a great commonality to them. In most of the cases of the strip mall shootings, they pull to the end of a -- of a lane. Now think of when you pull into a strip mall or any parking area at your grocery store, you have the lanes that you drive down with the marked parking spaces left and right.

They pull to the far end of the parking lot where people tend not to want to park. Everyone wants to park up front. They position their vehicle so that the rear of the vehicle faces down a lane. People walk down those same lanes that you drive. Think of it, when you walk to the store. So as they either get out of their car and walk to the store or they're walking back to their car, all the person -- the shooter has to do is take the shot at a person walking straight towards him or straight away.

And for all appearance representation for the shot, it's a person standing still. And all events had a little more -- that first shot at the Michaels store where there's a bullet hole in the window about 6 feet 4 inches above the ground.

HARRIS: Right.

HANEY: And everyone said he shot a window, why? He didn't shoot a window, he shot at a person and missed. There was one person walking around in that area who heard the sharp sonic crack of a bullet go by but didn't recognize what it was and they lived through it.

HARRIS: But every report about that hole in the window was that it was a small hole and we're talking...

HANEY: Oh it is a small hole.

HARRIS: But the bullet that we've been seeing, that's been exhibited as the one that the people -- that the experts believe is the kind that's being used here believe that it was a rather large bullet. That wouldn't -- and we've seen...

HANEY: No.

HARRIS: ... what it can do to a human body. You say that even if that was to hit a window it would make a small hole?

HANEY: It makes a tiny hole. When this -- when this round goes through glass or something hard that thin, it can't dump all of its energy, which it does in a human body.

HARRIS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have a shot of it up on the screen as a matter of fact.

HANEY: Sure.

HARRIS: A graphic shot of that. And as I understand it, you say that -- I've heard from the experts that that bullet technically is about the same size as a .22 bullet, which is small. However,...

HANEY: Yes.

HARRIS: ... the amount of gunpowder in there is a lot larger.

HANEY: Well, yes, it has a lot more power. It has a -- leaves the muzzle at a much, much faster velocity. Leaves the muzzle at better than 3,200 feet per second. So it has a lot of energy.

But in that first shot at Michaels, what I -- what I surmised was that was at one of the longest ranges he attempted a shot, which was 100 meters. Since, he has never attempted a shot at 100 meters at a moving person. In the other cases, the gentleman shot in Manassas at the gas station was shot from across the road at 100 meters. He was standing still. Anyone else who has been moving has been shot at 50 meters.

HARRIS: The boy at school even? I thought that one was...

HANEY: The little boy...

HARRIS: ... from a far distance in the woods.

HANEY: The little boy was walking straight towards the shooter and the range was 75 meters and the shooter was lying on the ground. So he either -- if he intended to kill the little boy, he shot low. My view is that he intended to severely wound the child, which is what he did. There's nothing more damaging than a gut shot, an abdomen shot.

HARRIS: You don't think he intended to kill that boy...

HANEY: Well I...

HARRIS: ... considering that sort of -- that kind of bullet hitting any kind of a small child wouldn't that? HANEY: The only reason the little boy lived was he was -- his aunt was right there, she knew what had happened and he was...

HARRIS: That's right.

HANEY: ... so close to a hospital. Usually that kind of wound, particularly if it cuts the stomach, and the doctors will tell you about that,...

HARRIS: Yes.

HANEY: ... so devastating that had it lasted another 20 minutes, he would not have survived.

HARRIS: All right. Finally, we have to go real quickly here, but I want to know have you seen or heard anything that would dissuade you from believing that there were two people involved here?

HANEY: No, I'm convinced there are two.

HARRIS: You're convinced there are two?

HANEY: They're two. They're operating in tandem. One shoots while the other either drives the vehicle and is sitting in the driver's seat watching. He's also pulling security. He tells the shooter, OK, no one's nearby us right now. When you have a person in your sights, take the shot. Then when the shot is fired, the driver slips it into gear and they unobtrusively pull way. Inside of 20 seconds, they're a couple of blocks away.

HARRIS: Boy, this is awfully sobering. Very sobering.

HANEY: Yes, it is.

HARRIS: Command Sergeant Major Eric Haney, thank you very much. Appreciate the expertise.

HANEY: Sure -- Leon (ph).

HARRIS: Hope to talk to you again about this, perhaps after we get this solved and get some answers and all.

HANEY: Well, let's hope it's helpful.

HARRIS: Yes, good deal. Thank you very much for your time.

HANEY: All right. You bet.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com