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INSIGHT
INSIGHT For October 21, 2002, CNN INTERNATIONAL
Aired October 21, 2002 - 17:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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SGT. STUART COOK, HANOVER COUNTY, VA: We can and do confirm at this time that the ballistics evidence recovered during our investigation has been matched with the other shooting cases.
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SHIHAB RATTANSI, INSIGHT HOST: The 12th victim of the Beltway Sniper, but this time the shooting occurs on a weekend, and 130 kilometers south from Washington. Also, a note is found at the crime scene.
After lambasting the media for its reporting of the case, the police chief in charge attempts to harness the coverage to communicate with the killer.
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CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: We are going to respond to a message that we have received -- we will respond later.
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RATTANSI: And hello and welcome to INSIGHT, I'm Shihab Rattansi sitting in for Jonathan Mann (ph).
It's been a day of drama and feverish speculation but at the end of it all, only one thing can be said for sure: the sniper -- or snipers -- remains on the loose. On INSIGHT today we'll gauge the progress of the investigation, and ask whether the attendant media circus is helping or hindering the search for the killer.
That in a moment, but first a look at this hour's leading headlines.
Two suicide bombers attacked a bus in Northern Israel on Monday. A total of fourteen people, including the bombers, dead, and more than 50 people have been hurt.
Authorities say a bomb-filled vehicle pulled alongside a bus and detonated. Soon after the blast, the Islamic Jihad organization claimed responsibility for the attack. Israeli and Palestinian officials were quick to condemn the bombing. Palestinian officials said the attack was a sign of the need to return to the peace process.
South Korean media reporting North Korea is ready to discuss its nuclear weapons program with the United States. The remarks were made in a meeting between North and South Korean delegates in Pyongyang.
North Korea's admission puts it in violation of at least four international commitments, including a 1990 war (ph) -- so-called agreed framework with the U.S. Under that framework, the North promised to freeze its suspected nuclear arms program in exchange for U.S. help in building two nuclear reactors and U.S. supplies of heavy fuel oil.
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MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The basic logic of the agreed framework doesn't work any more, and we have to put pressure on North Korea, so the only question -- I think -- is do you cut off all aid or, as I would prefer, do you continue humanitarian relief and some of the fuel oil while you tell North Korea, listen, the long-term deal is off and we're going to have to get a serious new regime of inspections in here before we can engage with you any further.
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RATTANSI: Speaking about Iraq, U.S. President George W. Bush says he'll try diplomacy; quote, "one more time." His remarks came after a meeting with NATO Secretary General George Robertson at the White House. Just hours earlier, U.S. diplomats delivered a draft resolution on Iraq to the United Nations.
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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've tried diplomacy. We're trying it one more time. I believe the free world, if we make up our mind to, can disarm this man peacefully. But if not -- if not -- there is -- we have the will and the desire, as do other nations, to disarm Saddam.
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RATTANSI: At the United Nations, security guards removed demonstrators chanting, "No war on Iraq." The protesters briefly disrupted a meeting of the U.N. General Assembly on Monday morning. The protesters, a group of 13 young people, had been part of a public tour.
Now that Irish voters have given the green light to European Union expansion, EU ministers are not tackling other obstacles to enlargement. EU foreign ministers are holding a two-day meeting in Luxembourg to discuss the addition of the ten new EU members in 2004. One problem being discussed is how to fund the enlargement while still granting protection to the EU's heavily subsidized farmers. Last weekend's Irish enlargement (ph) was seen as the biggest obstacle to expansion.
Well, optimism has given way to frustration and disappointment in the search for the Beltway Sniper. After a police swoop at a petrol station in Richmond, Virginia, two men are apparently cleared of any involvement in the killings terrorizing the Washington area. Gary Tuchman brings us up to date.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN: Well, Shihab, it was a very frantic morning here in Henrico County, Virginia, which is about 15 minutes away from the state capitol of Richmond. About 8:30 this morning up to 30 police vehicles swooped down upon this Exxon gas station. They went car to car looking car to car and then they rushed a van that was parked right next to that telephone that you see right there. Inside that white Plymouth Voyager was a man -- the man was taken into custody. Later authorities took another man into custody in this area.
But, at this point, it appears that there may be no connection whatsoever to these sniper shootings. Sources tell CNN that these two men may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. We are told that they are undocumented workers; one is from Mexico, one is from Guatemala.
Now, why were they here in the first place? Police, well -- they say that they got a call to the sniper tip line. On that call they were told that there is a note in the woods behind the Ponderosa Steak House where the last shooting happened this past Saturday.
Anyway, they did find a note in the woods, but they traced the call to the sniper tip line to a pay phone near this one. So this whole area was under surveillance and that is why, perhaps, when someone in a white van came by, that person was placed under arrest.
We should tell you those two men at this point are still in custody but they have not been arrested but they are being questioned.
This is a very unusual case; we've had this situation here where police are using the news media to communicate with the sniper. They've acknowledged they have gotten communication from the sniper and just a short time ago, the Chief of the Montgomery County Police in Maryland, where the first shootings happened, Charles Moose, had one more communication that he used us to deliver.
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CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTOGOMERY COUNTY, MD, POLICE: The person you called could not hear everything that you said. The audio was unclear and we want to get it right. Call us back so that we can clearly understand.
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TUCHMAN: So that is the message that we're sending to this person who has now killed nine people and wounded three. Now we say wounded three because this last case at the Steak House, the Ponderosa Steak House, Saturday night -- we have just confirmed today through authorities that ballistics testing shows that this was also the work of this sniper. And they were able to do this ballistics testing because they got the bullet out of the last patient who was shot.
We want to tell you an update from the hospital where that 37-year-old man is; he is still in critical condition but he has survived two operations and that, indeed, is very good news.
Shihab, back to you.
RATTANSI: Gary, as a journalist you've come to know this role as a conduit to the killer. Is this affecting your reporting in any way?
TUCHMAN: Well, I think, Shihab, the fact is that we're often the conduits -- it's not often it's so directly stated but a lot of times, whether we're dealing with police or politicians they say something they want sent to the public watching television.
In this case, though, it's very unusual to be very direct about it -- they're saying, we're not going to tell you anything we don't want, and the things we do tell you are usually a message. In this case, for the person who we're looking for. So, it doesn't make us do our jobs any differently. We're still digging, trying to find out information, but it is an unusual situation to be in, no question about that.
RATTANSI: Gary thanks very much. And that was Gary Tuchman speaking to me a little earlier on.
Saturday's shooting in Ashland, Virginia near Richmond was a considerable distance from most of the other attacks. Of the 13 shootings linked to the sniper, seven took place in Maryland and one occurred in Washington. Until Saturday's attack in Ashland, only four sniper attacks had happened in Virginia.
Well, for more now on what's happening in Virginia, we're joined by Jerry Kilgore in Richmond; he's Virginia's Attorney General. Thanks very much for joining us Mr. Kilgore. Can you give us an idea of what's been going on today? How closely involved were you with today's events?
JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, it's good to be with you. Of course, I'm being briefed by the law enforcement officials here in Virginia, keeping abreast of everything that's going on. This morning, of course, our law enforcement officials had tips and felt the need to question these individuals that were making the phone call there at the gas station.
RATTANSI: But judging from the comments of Chief Moose just a few -- an hour or so ago -- it would seem though that the main strategy being employed by investigators is pleading with the killer to get in touch. Would that be correct?
KILGORE: Well, certainly, they want this individual to call and stay in touch and give information.
RATTANSI: So that would be the main strategy, then, for the investigators?
KILGORE: I think so.
RATTANSI: And, do you think the investigation has been proceeding in a positive manner? There have been many people concerned about the chain of command, the level of competence displayed by some of the local officials. Presumably, you stand by them.
KILGORE: I -- I -- do. I think it's been a great show of cooperation among the federal, state, and local law enforcement officials. You know, if you go back to Saturday night's event where the individual was shot here in Ashland, Virginia -- law enforcement had every exit closed to the interstates within seven minutes. That was a remarkable response to this event. They've shown they could work well together; we're going to continue to work well together, as we catch this murderer.
RATTANSI: But nonetheless you found it necessary to close all the schools in Virginia. Will they remain closed for the foreseeable future?
KILGORE: You know, that's going to be announced later this evening. Of course, being a parent of a 9-year-old and a 6-year-old, I was relieved today that, taking all caution, that we closed the schools here in the Richmond area.
RATTANSI: But might not you be spreading fear the chance of being hit by the sniper is very limited -- you have more chance of being involved in a car accident, surely, aren't you?
KILGORE: Yes, but we -- we want to take every caution when it comes to schoolchildren. You know, one child in Maryland was already hit and we don't want a child in Virginia to suffer that same way.
RATTANSI: As an elected official you, indeed, ran on a law and order ticket, do you think that there is some legislative root to try and prevent this sort of violence?
KILGORE: I'm not sure there's a legislative route, but we already have tough laws in Virginia. We have the death penalty in Virginia that we regularly impose upon those that commit the most heinous crimes. As these are; those that would qualify for Virginia's death penalty.
RATTANSI: So would you be pushing for a prosecution, then, in your state, given that you have the highest possible penalties that the sniper could face?
KILGORE: Well, certainly we'd like to catch the individual in Virginia and we would move to prosecute that individual here in Virginia because crimes have been committed against Virginians. You know, under our laws here we would try the individual where they were first captured. And if they're captured first in Virginia we believe we would try him here first or the assortment of individuals here first and then let them go to the other states.
RATTANSI: But you think the death penalty is the answer in cases like this -- this will prevent other snipers from killing innocent civilians?
KILGORE: Well I certainly think it's served us well in Virginia. We have a -- we've seen violent crime reduced in our state over the past few years. And I think, in large part, because we've gotten tough on the violent criminals and we have that ultimate sanction for these penalties.
RATTANSI: Jerry Kilgore, the Attorney General of Virginia, thanks very much for joining us this evening.
KILGORE: Thank you.
RATTANSI: We'll take a break. When we come back, a closer look at the investigation. What do authorities do now? Stay with us.
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RATTANSI: Friends and family paid their final respects on Monday to the last person killed by the sniper. Linda Franklin was laid to rest in Arlington, Virginia. She was cut down outside a hardware store in Falls Church, Virginia one week ago.
Welcome back. Police have turned to the public. Geographic profilers, ballistic experts, even the military in their search for the sniper. So far, at least, nothing seems to have worked. Police now say the investigation is in a, quote, "very sensitive period."
To talk more about this, we're joined by Jake (ph) McCann, a security analyst for CNN and thanks for joining us Mr. McCann. It would seem, then, as indeed the Attorney General just confirmed that the main tactic being employed now is to plead with the killer to get in touch?
KELLY McCANN, SECURITY ANALYST: Sure, they have to re-establish communication, Shihab, you know -- this was an unfortunate circumstance. We don't know what motivated it, either. We don't know whether this was a test, a taunt, a bauble. But certainly re-communicating with the sniper is the first step.
RATTANSI: Do you think this investigation has been handled in a competent manner?
MCCANN: I think that the investigation has been handled as well as it could have been given the information at hand and given the rolling nature of the jurisdictions. In other words, it's been difficult to combine and develop coalitions as you go but I think we're at the point now where a simple repository for the data so that it can be shared collectively in a - - through a -- process instead of just kind of ad hoc is going to be another step that you'll see here shortly.
RATTANSI: Do you think that's how it's been done so far, though, ad hoc? Wouldn't it be sort of -- issues -- have been sorted out?
MCCANN: Well, ad hoc meaning that you've developed a process to support the animal that has been created to do the investigations. Certainly legal procedures have been followed, there's no doubt about that -- but as far as procedural things that will handle multiple jurisdictions as they add on weekly, I'm not sure there is a book that tells people how to do that.
RATTANSI: What do we know now that we didn't know 24 hours ago?
MCCANN: Well I think we know now that there's been an awful lot of conjecture not by the police -- certainly they're the repository of the only unequivocal information that's out there. But I think that the media has fueled many, many conjecture forward -- we've put a lot of ideas forward -- there's been a lot of opinionating and therein lies some of the distracters for the public. I think now re-establishing a basic fact line, which the investigators undoubtedly have and then go forward based on, you know, pure deductive understanding of what we have at hand is going to be key.
RATTANSI: Some irony in this, of course, because we've been speculating as feverishly as anyone else, and we've had the usual pat phrases, certainly on our network -- the loner, disgruntled in society, and so on -- how useful are all these speculations, this profiling. How useful is it to the actual case?
MCCANN: People believing in profiling is pretty -- you know -- it's divisive. And the reason is some people very much believe it based on historical precedence of successes. There are other people who have engaged profilers during their investigations and they haven't found it fruitful at all. Again, it goes to the fact -- you know -- the beautiful thing about physical evidence is that it does not have an opinion, it doesn't have an attitude, and it has no agenda. It just exists. And I think that basically whenever the investigation or when opinion starts to get inundated -- where people get inculcated with it -- things need to stop, take a breath, and reevaluate.
RATTANSI: As an expert, have you personally pulled up a profile of the sort of person you think is carrying this -- these killings -- out?
MCCANN: Not my area of expertise. If you want to know functionally how he's doing what he's doing, in other words, what the capabilities of the weapon are, where you'd need to position yourself, I'd be able to talk to you about that. But I wouldn't even begin to presume to talk about what's going on inside his head.
RATTANSI: What means are at the disposal there of investigators in trying to build up some sort of profile, however helpful that might be?
MCCANN: Well, very experienced people here in the United States who have had interviews, personally, with thousands of killers. There aren't thousands of serial killers incarcerated. They've also got volumes of case studies that they've carefully gone though to develop patterns. But, again, it is more of an art than it is a science, similar to psych -- all psychologies.
RATTANSI: And, as we've heard, actually in the past -- in the end, there are a lot of luck is involved in cracking these cases.
MCCANN: Absolutely. You know, more cases have fallen on chance and luck than probably just about anything else. And sometimes the most seemingly disinteresting piece may surface and there's your key.
RATTANSI: Given that, though, and given that -- I suppose -- one way of cracking the case is for the killer to make a mistake, how likely is it, looking at today's events, that the killer would still be driving around in a white van in the vicinity of the last killing or the last shooting?
MCCANN: Split answer on that one. Number one, I don't think you're likely to see this killer make too many mistakes. He's obviously a very -- a very clever -- man. Secondly, though, it goes to what's been on the media. Shihab, you know that there's not been one direct account of someone driving up in a white vehicle, stepping from it, shouldering a weapon, engaging somebody, getting back in that vehicle, and driving away or shooting from it or shooting from within it or on top of it. But because of the momentum of this investigation the only thing that we know factually is that there have been white vehicles present in some manner when the shooting has occurred. And that's it.
RATTANSI: Criticism leveled at those investigating this case, criticism also leveled right back to the media who's covering the case -- what do you think our role should be in all of this?
MCCANN: Supportive. I mean, it's an odd situation. You know, obviously, the media is going to provide the communicative measure to this person and that's by necessity. But also criticism at a time when people are frustrated and you know it's easy to criticize when you are not responsible for the outcome of something that's fairly significant to public safety. So it's very easy for people to toss darts. However, when it rides on your shoulders and when people have to look at expedience and there's a time-urgency factor, it's much different.
RATTANSI: Kelly McCann, thanks for joining us.
MCCANN: Thanks, Shihab.
RATTANSI: Another break and then talking to the killer -- a closer look at the media's role in all of this when we return. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY CO., MD., POLICE: We'd like to thank the media for carrying a message.
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RATTANSI: Changing fortunes after drawing the wrath of authorities early on in the investigation the media are now apparently a critical part of this. Authorities delivering three cryptic messages to someone on the airwaves in less than 24 hours.
Welcome back. Authorities have scaled back their hourly news conferences but you can still catch a live update every few hours from some official in some county where the sniper has struck.
The U.S. public's thirst for information has led to some of the highest TV ratings for the 24-hour news industry this year. And has now led to an ongoing dialogue with what some believe is a serial killer.
Joining us now to talk about that is Wally Dean, Director of Broadcast Training at the Committee of Concerned Journalists in Washington and Mr. Dean, thanks for joining us. I understand the irony, of course, of us discussing the media's role in all this because we're soaking it up just as much as anyone else by doing this program and are we helping?
WALLY DEAN, CMTE. OF CONCERNED JOURNALISTS: I think in the short term, yes. I'm not sure in the long term how much the media is helping. I believe there are two different media worlds involved in this story. One is the local media world in Washington, D.C., which I would give a grade of B as having done a pretty good job of providing people with the kind of information, the residents, with the kind of information that they need about this story.
Then there's the other media world which, especially the cable news networks, which are providing the rest of the nation and the rest of the world with what is becoming a good deal more less information -- more speculation -- and I'm afraid I would grade them a C- rapidly going to a D.
RATTANSI: Any examples come to mind -- feel free to attack our network. What do you think in particular? Give us an example.
DEAN: Well, I think the -- the problem of having to fill so much air time with so few facts has resulted in your and other networks and news organizations turning to experts -- some of whom are less restrained about their analysis and speculation. The problem is that there are very few facts in this story. And what facts there are that are being reported locally -- many of those are logistical facts.
For example, is there -- are schools going to be locked down? Are there going to be after school activities? Do -- should you worry about going shopping, getting gas? This story directly effects about -- I think about -- five million people. Yet, it is now taken -- it's now on your agenda, it's now on the agenda of the nation. To a proportion, which there are lots of other things of -- one could argue -- greater importance going on in the world, which we're not hearing about because this story is pushing them out.
RATTANSI: I guess in some ways could it be said, then, that our role is to put this story into its context? The -- which of course -- means the minimum likelihood of actually being hit by this sniper and said we apparently the message coming from all this attention would be that everybody should be afraid, very, very afraid.
DEAN: And that seems to be the message, although I can tell you living in Washington, people are concerned, they're paying attention but I certainly would not say they're afraid. You know in the last thirteen months, people in this area have gone through September 11, have been exposed to anthrax, and now this and all in all I think people are really taking this pretty well. I think unfortunately the people who are really paying the price for this are the children.
RATTANSI: One of the sensational developments in this case was the finding of that Tarot card. Should the Washington Post and the local cable station have reported that? The police seem to think not.
DEAN: Well, the Police Chief said not. I would argue that that was appropriate reporting because it involved some enterprise that helped us understand some of what was going on.
Secondly, the local station which broke that story checked with both the police officials and with the county executive -- told them several hours before it aired that they were going to air that information and were not called off from airing that information.
RATTANSI: In some ways should we be relieved at this adversarial role the media is taking; some elements of the media is taken when looking critically at this investigation -- it does seem to contrast enormously with the post-9/11 sense of the U.S. media of being far more wary of criticizing authority. In particular, for example, John Ashcroft's measures in the aftermath of September the 11th. Now, it would seem that law enforcement are fair game again.
DEAN: Well, I would suggest that there has not been very much adversarial reporting yet and partly because its almost impossible to do not knowing very many of the facts. For example, how efficiently is this investigation being run? How well is information being shared? How are they doing following up on tips and other leads? We simply don't know that, and it's probably too early to report it without also exposing investigative details, which would make the situation worse.
In fact, I think that there has been relatively little enterprise on this investigative or enterprise reporting on this story and most of what's happening is we are in the position --- journalists are in the position -- repeating over and over and over again -- or speculating about -- things based on official pronouncements of which there are few because they had a lot less information they wanted to give us.
RATTANSI: Of course my bosses would reply, look, we're just giving the people what they want. The ratings are up; people want to know the latest on the sniper killings even if it is just repetition. Indeed, there was an article that one of the programs on our sister network CNN USA -- their ratings dropped as soon as they discussed the Bali bombings at last week for just a moment there. Everyone switched over to the archrivals to get back with the sniper story.
DEAN: Well, I think to an extent your bosses would be right. In the short term, a story like this boosts ratings. But if we run this story into the ground and so irritate people by repeating the same thing over and over again or wildly speculating about outcomes or giving a huge amount of coverage to things that turn out to be trivial, in the long term that hurts the credibility of all journalists. And that is what is at risk in this story. When we report far more than what we know.
RATTANSI: Wally Dean, thanks very much for joining us.
And that's it for this edition of INSIGHT. I'm Shihab Rattansi.
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