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CNN Talkback Live

Sniper on the Loose: Another Deadly Shooting in Maryland

Aired October 22, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville today.
Well, today, another deadly shooting, this time back in Montgomery County, Maryland. Of course, the question everyone is asking today: Is it the sniper? As police investigate the possible link, we focus on the letter left behind at another shooting. And we'll bring you one serial killer expert who says it may mislead the investigation. Also: anxiety in the suburbs. Is today's shooting a reminder that no one is safe? We will talk about coping with fear. So stick around, because we do have a whole lot to talk about.

But first, we want to get the latest on the investigation. Let's go to Daryn Kagan at the task force headquarters in Montgomery County, Maryland.

Tell us about this latest victim, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Carol, very, very sad: a father of two, a married man, a bus driver -- more on him in just a moment.

First, I want to talk about the fear and frustration that extends across Montgomery County and all over the Washington, D.C. area in light of this shooting. It started about 6:00 a.m. this morning, bus driver Conrad Johnson doing what he did many mornings, I believe. He worked for the county for the last 10 years. He was getting his bus ready in a staging area in a part of town called Aspen Hill.

He was by himself on the bus at the top of the stairs when a shot rang out and he was hit. He was airlifted to a suburban hospital in Bethesda. Doctors worked very hard to try to save his life, but he later tied. We'll have to wait, of course, for ballistic tests on the bullet to find out for sure if it's a match, but police are definitely operating on the assumption that it is.

And we have heard earlier today from Police Chief Moose, when he said that he believes that this killer has the ability and the willingness to go ahead and kill people of different ages, different genders and different races. Basically, he does not discriminate.

Let's tell you a little bit more about the man, instead of just focusing on the shooter. Let's focus on the victim today. Conrad Johnson was his name, 35 years old, as I mentioned, a father of two children, also married. And we're finding out from county officials that he worked for Montgomery County for the last 10 years.

If indeed it does turn out to be a match -- and it's looking like that -- he would be the 10th fatality and the 13th victim since these shootings began on October 2 -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Daryn, I did notice something maybe a little unusual. Chief Moose came out for the daily briefing. And it was quite a lengthy one. Also, he did not try in any way to talk to the killer.

KAGAN: Yes, well, as far as we know. It was different from the last two days, where he has sat in front of the cameras and looked directly in it and said send this message along. He has done that the last two days.

He said today, he didn't think it would be appropriate, given what happened, how another man had lost his life. It is possible, though, that he was communicating with the killer by certain language that he was using. But that's not for us to know at this point.

COSTELLO: Yes, it certainly wasn't apparent. Daryn Kagan, thank you very much for the update.

As Daryn mentioned, Conrad Johnson was shot when he stopped his bus near a wooded area in the Aspen Hill area. For now, authorities are treating the shooting as if it is connected to the serial sniper.

We'll go to Bob Franken. He's been at the scene all day long.

Is there still a police presence there, Bob?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, quite a significant one, Carol. You can still see that the bus that Conrad Johnson was driving before he stepped out of it and was gunned down, it's still there, over my shoulder.

And the police are out in the woods, going back and forth, scouring the woods from the ground, looking for any pieces of evidence. As the day has worn on, very observers, including CNN producers, have seen evidence markers put down. They also, at one point -- and we have a picture of this -- watched police officers take a plaster of Paris cast of what appeared to be a footprint. Of course, that's a common police technique. We don't know if it was anything of huge significance or if they are just touching every base.

I can tell you that, hours after that, the police were still scouring the area from the ground. They were still flying a police helicopter low over the area and hovering for considerable periods of time so they could see if they could spot anything from the air. Just a little while ago, we watched as police carried out a yellow bag. We don't know if it was just sort of the potpourri of anything that they have found that might be useful or whether they had found something that could be significant.

And, of course, as everybody is pointing out, they're operating on the premise that this was the work once again of the sniper who has wreaked such havoc over this area for almost three weeks. I should point out that this particular location is just about a half-mile from where the shooting spree began -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Another question I had for you: Where do police believe the shot came from? Because we have heard reports it came from pretty close by that bus.

FRANKEN: Well, let me turn just around and show you.

If you can see where the bus is, right adjacent to the bus, on the right side of the bus, is a wooded area that has a basketball court. It's a basketball court that is connected to an apartment complex across the street. Police have spent the most part of their day searching that area and the area immediately behind that.

And then, of course, there would be an area behind that where there would be the network of side streets and all this thing which would allow somebody to escape and very quickly disappear into the night, particularly given the shock that would follow when anything like this happens.

COSTELLO: Can you give us an estimate of how far away that basketball court is from the bus? Is it 30 yards? Is it 100 yards?

FRANKEN: Oh, I would guess it to be probably in the order of 20 to 30 yards, something like that. But somebody who would be back there, maybe a little bit further back from there, would be, particularly that time of day, really hidden from view. It was dark. It was -- although 6:00 in the morning, as you know, it is dark much later these days. And it was really dark outside, like it was night.

COSTELLO: Understand. Thank you for the update, Bob. Appreciate it.

We now have more information, too, about the contents of that letter, that letter that was found near Saturday's shooting in Ashland, Virginia.

CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena joins us now from Washington with the latest on that.

And, Kelli, does the handwriting in the letter match the handwriting on the tarot card that was found earlier?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources so far have said no, that the handwriting does not match. However, there were similar words or phrases that were used in the letter that were also used on the tarot card. And those phrases, specific phrases were not made public. So investigators do believe that this is a legitimate communication from the sniper. And they're working on that premise.

COSTELLO: And we also heard there was a mention of money in the letter, a lot of money, and if that money was given to the sniper or snipers, maybe the killings would stop. Is that correct?

ARENA: Well, according to our sources, there was a hint at a demand for money, although no one has characterized the amount for us. And, yes, it was allegedly connected to a threat of more killings.

COSTELLO: The mention of schoolchildren in the letter, can you expound on that for us?

ARENA: Yes, there was a threat in the letter that mentioned, if certain demands were not met by a certain time, that schoolchildren would be killed.

Now, this is information that CNN uncovered early yesterday, but we were asked by law enforcement officials not to reveal that information, because there was a great deal of concern that that information could jeopardize the investigation or even put the community and children at more risk than they already were.

Unfortunately, there were some news organizations that chose to publish that information. And so we are now coming forward to at least let our viewers know that that is indeed accurate information, at least according to our sources, Carol.

COSTELLO: Another question I had for you: If the handwriting doesn't exactly match, but some phraseology matches this tarot card that was found, do police believe that it's still absolutely connected to the sniper or that it could have been written by two snipers?

ARENA: Well, there's always been an open question there. And investigators are not limiting this to the theory that it's one sniper, or even that the sniper is male or not working possibly with a female counterpart.

Those are theories, speculation at this point. So, someone else could have, if he's working with someone else or she is working with someone else, maybe they wrote the letter. Or perhaps it was an attempt to disguise the handwriting. We do know that there was a phone call that came in to authorities in which, according to sources, there was a tape recorder or voice device that was used to try to disguise the voice.

And you heard from police officials yesterday making a plea to that individual to call back, because officials could not understand what was said on that phone call.

COSTELLO: So, wait a minute. Was it an actual voice device that the person may have been using?

ARENA: Well, that's according to our sources. They think that it was something like that, a voice synthesizer or a tape recorder that had somehow recorded and then tried to disguise the voice that was used.

So, officials couldn't decipher all of what was being said, which is why we heard that appeal yesterday for that individual to call back. Now, it's not clear -- and there's been no official confirmation -- whether or not officials were talking directly to the sniper or perhaps to an accomplice or perhaps to someone who has been acting as a legitimate tipster and providing information.

COSTELLO: And we also don't know that the police got any kind of callback.

ARENA: Well, so far. We've been checking with sources throughout the day. And there is absolutely no indication case yet -- it's still early in the day -- but there's been no indication that, A, there was a letter or any new information found at this most recent shooting site -- which, we must remind our viewers, has not been linked yet by ballistic evidence or any evidence to the previous shootings.

But nor has there been any phone call, at least according to our sources, after yesterday's plea by the police.

COSTELLO: OK, good enough.

Kelli Arena, thank you very much for your fine reporting work. We appreciate it.

When we come back: inside the sniper mentality -- a letter, a tarot card and a phone call. Will the sniper be caught using his own words? We'll ask a panel of law enforcement and security experts, as the search for the sniper intensifies.

Don't you go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): Messages from a sniper: Is the killer reaching out to police? And could it lead to a capture?

JOE COFFEY, SON OF SAM INVESTIGATOR: Communication always helps, because it gives you an opportunity to figure out what's going on in his mind.

COSTELLO: More on the investigation, as the search for the sniper continues, on TALKBACK LIVE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: We remain concerned about the safety of all the people in our region. We realize that the person or the people involved in this have shown a clear willingness and ability to kill people of all ages, all races, all genders, all professions, different times, different days and different locations.

We certainly encourage everyone to remain cautious, vigilant about their activities, to remain observant of anything out of place, anyone driving away from an area erratically, anyone behaving strangely or in a way that maybe is not themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Today's shooting comes just as authorities appear to have made contact with the sniper. Will opening the lines of communication bring police any closer to catching this killer or killers?

I want to go to our guests now: in New York, Paul Ragonese. He's a former police countersniper for the New York City Police Department; and in Washington, CNN security analyst J. Kelly McCann.

Thank you both for joining us this afternoon.

Now, we just want to operate on the assumption that this most recent shooting is connected to the sniper.

Kelly, I want to start with you.

Is this shooting any different than the others?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Just today, Carol, we looked at the objective. If you think about it, it has a lot of the same elements.

And those elements would be that there's an area to egress to. There's some cover and concealment. There's an open line of sight to a target. And that's what distinguishes it from the other targets. In military terms, a parking lot is what you'd call a target-rich environment. In other words, if you wait, sooner or later, targets will appear, because people are shopping, etcetera.

This is different, because this was an isolated spot where, by routine, county employees would pull their busses over, finish their logbooks, clean the bus, get ready to do the next route, which undoubtedly is done by habit. It wasn't as if a person could, by sheer opportunistic luck, happen on to that. This was carefully planned. It shows a level of sophistication that a parking lot doesn't.

However, we still can't have -- or I don't think there is any physical evidence yet to actually link it. So, at this point, it has all the earmarks, but it is not confirmed.

COSTELLO: Yes, we understand that.

Paul, I want to ask you about that.

This was meticulously planned, according to Kelly there. You're an expert in snipers. Can this guy really be considered a sniper or is this more of an ambush killing?

PAUL RAGONESE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, a sniper is an ambush killer. What he's doing is standard operating procedure for any sniper or countersniper. He's doing his homework. He's scouting the area where he wants to take his shot. He's only taking one shot. He's secreting himself. And one of the things that I've noticed is, I've never noticed heard any of the witnesses say they saw a muzzle flash, which makes me believe he's using a flash suppressor on the gun. And I believe he's using a bolt-action gun, where the round wouldn't be ejected from the gun and he wouldn't have to look around for it in the dark.

COSTELLO: And this wouldn't necessarily have to be a large weapon either, would it? It could be taken apart, I'm saying, and concealed.

RAGONESE: Well, yes. Any sniper gun, countersniper gun, .223 round, just for argument, a Remington 660 -- that's what we use in the emergency service unit in the police department -- you could take it apart. You unscrew the barrel, take the stock off and take the bolt out.

And you can put it in a bag. You could literally stick it down your pants and walk away from the scene. And nobody would notice.

COSTELLO: I understand.

Let's take a look at what we know. There have been seven shootings in Maryland around this Aspen Hill area. You can see two in Aspen Hill, one in Bowie, one in Kensington, one Silver Spring, two in Wheaton, and one in White Flint. All of these areas, well, they're fairly close together. They would be no more, oh, I would say a half- hour drive from one another.

And now the killer has returned. And I'm going on the assumption that this latest shooting in Maryland is connected to the sniper. But the last shooting occurred 90 miles south of Washington. Now he is back.

Does the number of shootings that occurred in Montgomery County suggest that this is the killer's home base, Kelly?

MCCANN: Two things, Carol. First, I just want to return to the last commentary, which was excellent. But, still, don't -- we can't get hung up on the type of weapons. No one has reported seeing an AR- 15, an eyewitness that says that is the type of weapon. No one has reported a bolt-action weapon.

And, as the other guest well knows, there are weapons 14 inches in length, breech-loaded, hunting-format, long-format pistols that chamber a .223 cartridge that can be scoped. So I think everybody needs to step back. And I'm sure everything is realizing this, that a direct eyewitness account has not been managed yet. We've not had any reports.

But to your other question that goes in line with this one, no, we can't assume that, just because there's been a multiple number of murders in Montgomery County and that it started there, that he lives there, or she or they, because there is no physical, unequivocal evidence that points that way.

COSTELLO: Gotcha. Paul, I wanted to ask you this. Chief Moose came out. It appeared he did not try to communicate with the killer this time. Do you think the tactics have changed?

RAGONESE: I've gone through some cases in New York City. I was in the bomb squad and we had serial bombers. And the pressure on the chief or the commissioner is tremendous.

I think he's trying every aspect to solve this case. We were taught, though, in counterterrorism you never negotiate with a terrorist. And while he might not be an international terrorist, he might not be a domestic terrorist, his acts are terrorism. He's terrorized a whole community.

So, we were taught, you never negotiate. You never cater to a demand of a terrorist. But I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And I really have sincere pity for the whole crew down there, because the pressure must be unbelievable to solve this case.

COSTELLO: Oh, you're right about that, just incredible pressure.

Stick around, because we have to take a break right now.

Could police use the sniper's words to set a trap? We were just talking about that.

I want to hear from you on this, though. Call me at 1-800-310- 4CNN or send me an e-mail: TALKBACK@CNN.com.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Of course, we are talking about the Washington area sniper and how to catch a killer or killers. With us now: Kelly McCann and Paul Ragonese.

Thank you for sticking around.

Paul, I wanted to expound on something that you had said before we hit a break. You said that you really don't think it's a good idea for police to try to negotiate or communicate in any way with this killer.

RAGONESE: Well, they might want to communicate with the alleged killer, because you don't know if you're really dealing with the person that's responsible.

But every school that I've been through is, you don't negotiate. You don't be held to a terrorist's demands. There are other ways of catching, investigating and determining who these people are or person is.

COSTELLO: Kelly, I want to bring you in on this. Do you agree with that?

MCCANN: Well, there's competing theories. Paul knows that there are other ways to -- and he was careful not to go into those ways -- to deal with the issue.

But the thing is, is, that you have to be so careful that you don't inflame, that you don't aggravate, that you don't incite, that you don't say the wrong thing, because, truthfully it is an art, not a science, to try to determine what somebody's real motivation is, what their real intent is.

It's funny to hear us on the media, because we're calling them now "he, she, they," because there are so many unknowns. So it's hard to apply a strict process or a strict rule when there are so many variables that you don't know about.

COSTELLO: And I want to pose this to you both, too. A lot of people believe that this letter that police received or found at the scene of one of the shooting scenes, and also the tarot card that police found in Bowie, should be released to the public.

In fact, we have an e-mail about that right now. I want to read it for you. It says: "Since communication has not stopped the killer, why don't police release the written notes and see if anyone recognizes the wording, thoughts or handwriting?" This is from Eric in Idaho.

So why not, Kelly?

MCCANN: Because, again, we don't know what will incite, aggravate, agitate, urge to action this person. If in fact he's seeking faith and trust in the police community by trying to communicate with them, then in fact to reveal what could be, in his mind, an intimate note or message or whatever, would be a slap in his face. It's like standing on top of a basketball, Carol. You try to find that balance point, but it shifts every second. So it's very touchy.

COSTELLO: OK, we have another audience member who wants to say something, Joey from New York.

JOEY: Yes.

I think that they should release it, because, by them releasing it, they would be able to maybe make the people or person that's doing it nervous enough to the point that they are going to lead more into it, as in where they're going to make their next shooting, and possibly you could have an undercover agent there just walking along and possibly catch him at the time, being very notable and

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Sounds like a best-case scenario, but Kelly said you really shouldn't agitate him.

Paul, what do you think about all this? RAGONESE: Well, in every investigation, you hold back some intimate information regarding the case, so that only the perpetrator of the crime would know about it, so, when you do have the individual, he would be the only one, because, during these type of scenarios, you get literally hundreds of people who want to confess. They want their 15 minutes of fame. They want to throw their name into the ring. But you try to hold back something that only the killer would know.

And as far as him being afraid that, as a result of releasing this information, the police -- this person or this group of people, they're cold-blooded. To put a scope on someone's body, on their torso or their head, and to pull the trigger is a cold-blooded act. And being in that -- coming from that business, even when you did have to do it, you did it to save other people's lives. You didn't do it to take an innocent victim's life. So I don't think anything's going to shake this person.

COSTELLO: OK, thank you both, J. Kelly McCann and Paul Ragonese, for joining us today.

Coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE: He has studied serial killers and their communications with police. Now we're asking him about this case. Find out what Tomas Guillen has to say about the serial sniper when TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We have been talking about the sniper's apparent attempts to communicate with authorities. And joining us now, Tomas Guillen. He's an associate professor at Seattle University who has studied serial killers and their messages to police. Welcome to the program.

TOMAS GUILLEN, SEATTLE UNIVERSITY: Good afternoon.

COSTELLO: Tomas, first I want to talk about this letter that was supposedly written by the sniper. It's quite a lengthy letter. What does that say to you about him or her?

GUILLEN: Well, in my mind they want to communicate. It sounds very simple, but they have something to say. And I know that they're killing, but they have something to say. And I think police are right in trying to establish a line of communication to get him to speak his mind and say what is bothering him.

COSTELLO: The mention of money in the letter seems strange to many people. It doesn't seem to fit the pattern here, if there is a pattern at all.

GUILLEN: Well, that troubles me also. First had you a communique that talked about power, you know, "I am god." Now you have a communique that apparently indicates (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some money. To me those are completely different motives. I would not think this case is about money. I think this individual has something to say.

They're more dysfunctional; they want power. But I don't think it's about money. So I think the killer may be trying to throw the case off or misdirect the investigation.

COSTELLO: The way the letter was found was strange, too. It was found in Ashland, Virginia, outside of this Ponderosa restaurant, where a man was shot in the parking lot. And the note was like nailed to a tree in the woods behind the restaurant. Is that any sort of message for police?

GUILLEN: Well, not in my mind. You know communiques come in all different forms. They might be nailed to trees. I've researched cases where they send poetry, they send diagrams of crime scenes that are so detailed they look like pictures. They send telephone calls. So communiques come in different forms: in the mail, and sometimes they even mail pieces of evidence to prove that they are the killer. So that doesn't surprise me at all.

COSTELLO: But by communicating in this way through a lengthy letter, is the killer trying to taunt police or is he or she trying to get more credit?

GUILLEN: I think both. They are trying to taunt police, they're trying to play with them, toy with them, tell them that they can do better than police officers and so forth. To me, the bottom line, I looked at six cases nationwide recently in research, and to me an underlying theme was this they want to be caught. The communiques are a cry out that they want to be caught but they can't get themselves to turn themselves in.

You had the weepy (ph) voice killer from Minnesota. And he would call frequently to police and cry and say he was going to turn himself in but he couldn't do it. And so, to me, that's what the communique is. They are killing, but it's a method of saying that they want to be caught basically.

COSTELLO: But aren't there simpler ways to do that?

GUILLEN: Well, simpler ways? They're in a psychological state (ph); they're dysfunctional. They've got a problem or somebody has done something to them. They may have been victims before they became suspects, in fact. And so I don't think it's anything simple in this case, not when you're dealing with psychiatry, psychology and dysfunctionalism. Nothing is really simple.

COSTELLO: And talking about the strangeness of this case, communiques that came from other serial killers were sort of one-way conversations to police. This killer seems to be trying to create a dialogue, to have a two-way conversation. What does that say about him or her?

GUILLEN: Well, if you look at the past, there have been communiques sent, and they appear to be one-way conversations. But police didn't attempt to communicate with them. I think in every case they can try to do that. The killer wants to talk. The killer has something on his mind. And the question is how can police get him to speak his mind? There's a lot of static, there is a lot of media. Society is interested in this. There are a lot of things getting in the way of a good, clear conversation. And police are trying that but it's very difficult.

COSTELLO: Well, we've heard how police are trying to do that by giving these cryptic messages through the media. Does that sort of thing work?

GUILLEN: Well, I mean, it does work in the sense that they do respond. They are listening. If you look at the zodiac case of San Francisco, at one time a police chief said, I don't believe that the zodiac killed this individual. Well, then a communique came around with a blood stained shirt and a message (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said, I'm listening and I did kill this individual.

It does work. The question is whether they should be cryptic or should they release more information? I believe that police should hold something back for polygraph, but I do believe they could release more of the letter, because this is the moment when people are paying attention. And if there's something in the writing, something in the tone, that will help police now, not a year from now when they want to rejuvenate some tips.

COSTELLO: Got you. We have a phone call from Kim (ph) in Arkansas. Kim (ph), are you still there?

CALLER: Yes, ma'am.

COSTELLO: What do you have to say?

CALLER: A question, please, for your guest. Do you think possibly that this shooter is a current or former policeman? That he knows how the police function and how they think, escape routes and everything? Is he still a cop maybe? I don't know. Thank you.

GUILLEN: Well, I don't know and everybody's guessing. Some people have guessed military, Vietnam. I don't think it's necessarily a police officer. There are a lot of people who know rifles, there are a lot of hunters, there are a lot of people who are very good shots. There a lot of people who took ROTC and never went into the military in college or in high school. It could be anyone.

And I don't necessarily think it's police. They're just type A, they prepare, they look at the ground, they're smart, they're cunning, they use common sense.

COSTELLO: Tomas, stick around. We have to take a break. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back with much more on the D.C. area sniper investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE, more on living in fear. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody know when the next thing will happen. People cancel soccer games, schedules are rearranged, high school football games are canceled. To this point we still have not seen this person or persons. We have no idea who it is.

COSTELLO: We'll talk about today's shooting and what it means to a region already victimized by the sniper. And tell us what you think. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Of course we're talking about the D.C. area sniper and the things he supposedly left behind like this letter in Ashland, Virginia and also a tarot card in Bowie, Maryland. I want to introduce our guest, once again. Tomas Guillen, who studies serial killers.

We didn't talk much about this tarot card and I do want to get into that. What do you think this tarot card meant and why is it so different from this letter that was left in Ashland, Virginia?

GUILLEN: Well, to me the main difference is that it provides a conflict in motive. The tarot card basically tells you he wants power, he wants to be god and so forth. And the other communique talks about money.

What that reminds me of is the lipstick killer of Chicago in 1946, where basically the killer wrote on the wall "Stop me because I'll kill some more." And then later on, to misdirect the investigation, he sends a communique asking for $20,000.

He had misspellings like he was a third grader, when in fact the suspect was a college student, medical student at that. So to me, you can draw parallels to this, where I don't think money is at issue and I think it's going to misdirect the investigation.

COSTELLO: Got you. We have Julie (ph) on the phone from Missouri. Julie (ph), what do you want to say?

CALLER: Hi Carol. I would just like to say that I think the community at large needs to start focusing on their friends, their family, co-workers, neighbors, because whoever is doing this, after three weeks, you -- almost three weeks, you would think that they would start showing some very significant signs of exhaustion and odd behavior. And I believe that somebody out there knows this person.

COSTELLO: Yes, what should people be looking for? If this sniper or snipers live in the Maryland area or in the Virginia area, what should people be looking for?

GUILLEN: Well, I mean, basically the chief of police in Montgomery was pointing some of those items out. And, basically, they're tired, they're secretive, they have used a weapon before, they've talked about using a weapon before. They have been dysfunctional; they've talked about hurting individuals. I think sometimes you can pick up on those vibes.

It's simply to say here's a list of items to look for. But I think if you know of an individual and they talk in a very odd way about hurting people, I think you should contact police and then let them decide whether there's something there or not.

COSTELLO: Tomas Guillen, thank you so much for joining us today. We've learned a lot from you.

Police are still trying. Of course they're determined whether this morning's deadly shooting of a bus driver is the work of the sniper. Either way, it's re-ignited fears in a county already hit six times during the sniper spree.

And, also, we understand that Chief Charles Moose, the Montgomery County police chief, will hold a briefing a few minutes from now. We'll go to that live from we have it.

Joining us now from Rockville, Maryland, though, Sharon Friedman. She is the executive director of the Montgomery Mental Health Association. Welcome.

SHARON FRIEDMAN, MONTGOMERY COUNTY MENTAL HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Hi. How are you?

COSTELLO: I'm fine. I can imagine you're busy these days.

FRIEDMAN: Indeed we are, yes.

COSTELLO: How many calls are you getting?

FRIEDMAN: Well, we generally are getting many, many calls through a hotline that we run from individuals just really wanting some supportive listening. Wanting to talk through how they're feeling, wanting some tips for how they can talk to their children about everything that's going on.

COSTELLO: We've heard that attendance is down in area schools. Can you tell us more about that?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think up until recently we've seen a real good attendance at schools. I think that most people in the face of everything that's going on are really trying to give our children as much normalcy as possible.

COSTELLO: How much normalcy can there be when schools operate in a code blue status? When kids get off the school bus and run zigzag into their school building?

FRIEDMAN: Well, when you have those kinds of variations of your normal pattern, as adults, I think what we have to do is give our children as much of the routine as we can within the face of the crisis situation. And that are things like making sure that the adults give lots of hugs and kisses to their children, that when the families are together, they're spending quality time. That they are talking about the facts but talking about the facts in age-appropriate ways, because you're right, there is so much chaos associated with this situation, so it behooves us as adults to protect the children when we're with them.

COSTELLO: All right. Thank you.

We have to take a break right now. Police in Montgomery County, Maryland will hold a news conference very shortly. Of course we will bring that to you live. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Another reminder for all of you out there, there is an expected news briefing that's going to happen any moment from Montgomery County. We believe it's going to be held by Chief Charles Moose. We will keep you informed. When it happens, we'll go directly there live.

We're talking about the fear factor in the Washington area right now. And many members of our audience have a lot to say about that. Danielle (ph), would you go to Washington, D.C. right now?

DANIELLE: I would not. I have a comfort level that I like to have when I travel and I don't think I would have it being in D.C.

COSTELLO: You have friends in Falls Church, too?

DANIELLE: I have a friend of a friend who doesn't feel comfortable going out and doing simple things, shopping, getting gas in her car. It's not a comfort zone that she would have now.

COSTELLO: We can understand that. Other members of our audience feel differently. I want to go over here and I want to talk to Joey (ph), because you have a planned trip to D.C. in just two weeks. Are you still going to go?

JOEY: Yes, I am. I'm still going to attend that trip.

COSTELLO: Why?

JOEY: I'm going up there for a business trip and to visit friends. And, for me, it's not going to bother me that he's out there or she is out there, because I'm going to still go and hold my head up proud, because, one -- I hate to say it like this and I do feel sorry for the families that this has happened to -- but for me, one minor thing compared to everything that's happened in the past couple of years is not going to stop me from living my life and trying to go on with my dreams.

COSTELLO: You're not going to let fear -- you're from New York. I just want to point that out to let people know what you're talking about.

I want to head back out to Montgomery County and check in with our expert there. Sharon, what do you think about that? The tourist industry is apparently way down in Washington, D.C. at this time. What do you say to tourists? What do you say to people who want to visit Washington, D.C.?

FRIEDMAN: What I say is that, as your guests point out, everybody's comfort level is different. And you know in the face of the chaos, you have to decide what is the best scenario for you. You know, and if the scenario is that you are comfortable coming to visit our area, then that should be the thing that you pursue. And if at this particular time you're not, then that's OK, too.

One of the things that we really are trying to impress upon the residents of the area is that you may need to make some adaptations to your normal schedule. For example, if exercise is something that really helps you through difficult times and you are used to exercising outside, well then maybe you need to be doing some exercising at a health club or in your own home. So I guess what I'm saying is that there really is no right answer for how to deal with this trauma.

COSTELLO: You know, I wanted to ask you this, too, and you've given us good advice. But it's sort of like the entire community has been taken hostage and that this sniper or snipers is the kidnapper.

FRIEDMAN: Yes. I think to some degree that analysis is true, but I also am very, very proud of the way that our community has been handling this, in that people have really striven, for the most part, to try to go about their daily business to the best of their ability within the context of everything that's happening.

COSTELLO: All right. Sharon Friedman, thank you so much for taking time out of your business day and joining us on TALKBACK LIVE.

We're still awaiting that news briefing to begin. So we're going to take a break, but TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We are still awaiting that news briefing out of Montgomery County, Maryland. It's rather a surprise it was not announced beforehand. But you're looking at the podium there, and, as you can see, all of those microphones are ready to go. When it does occur, of course we will go there live.

We want to go to the Pentagon right now to talk with Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr, who has a new development to tell us about. Barbara, what is it?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, just like the rest of Washington, D.C., an awful lot of stress and tension with the local workers here in the Pentagon today. A couple of hours ago, the Arlington County Police Department received a phone call which they do now believe was a crank call, which led to this search of the Pentagon grounds that you're seeing here. This was earlier today just about an hour ago. Military personnel and local police authorities began a search through the woods, as I said, after receiving what they think now was a crank call from someone claiming to have knowledge of some person in the woods here alongside the Pentagon; someone possibly with a weapon.

They conducted a search, a lot of tension and stress here around the Pentagon, but then came up with nothing. They could not find any evidence. They do think it was a crank call.

COSTELLO: And, Barbara, it looked like they had small tanks patrolling the grounds there.

STARR: Well, quite interesting, those are called Humvees. Those are wheeled vehicles that are military police that we have had here at the Pentagon since the 9/11 attack. These are part of the rotating active duty military forces and National Guard and reserve forces that now protect the Pentagon. And security personnel have told us that certainly they have stepped up security in the last couple of weeks around here, but this indeed since the September 11 attacks is one of the most secure places in Washington.

Nonetheless, when they got this report, they immediately started using these military vehicles and military personnel to conduct a sweep through the region. The military is very sensitive to all of this. We can also tell you, ironically, the U.S. Marine Corps base of Quantico, just about 20 miles south of Washington, was scheduled this week to begin their annual sniper competition. It's a military sporting competition, military, Marine Corps sniper teams from around the world were going to be at Quantico competing for what they call the best of the best in military sniper teams.

They canceled that competition. The military, the Marine Corps saying they realized it would just be inappropriate to have such a sporting event at this time in the region. And earlier today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld here in the briefing room again talked about the fact that the military is lending its support to the search for the sniper. There are several military Army surveillance aircraft patrolling the skies over Washington on a random basis.

We don't talk about when, how, where, but they are patrolling the skies. And Defense Secretary Rumsfeld pointed out that this was a very unique thing for the military to be doing. He said, "We don't do it frequently and we don't do it lightly. And we do do it in a supporting role." The military trying to lend its support to law enforcement here in the nation's capital -- Carol.

COSTELLO: We can certainly understand that. Thank you, Barbara Starr, for that update. Very interesting.

We have a viewer calling in. Michelle (ph) are you there?

CALLER: Yes, I am here.

COSTELLO: What do you have to say? CALLER: My question is, by the publication of the media being so widespread, aren't you keeping the sniper in contact and letting him know exactly where everything is? Like there was a map mapped out to show exactly where he had hit, and that he had traveled down to the bottom and he's moving...

COSTELLO: Right. I understand a lot of people have that criticism of the media that we're letting too much information go. Do we have an audience member who wants to add to that? Michael (ph), from Ohio, what do you have to say?

MICHAEL: Yes, the comment was made in the last report about the crank call. How do we know that it is a crank call and be sure of that? I mean why attention isn't being drawn to these areas for specific reasons, that something else might happen in another location, how can they be so quick to rule out that...

COSTELLO: Very good point. We can only express what police are telling us.

We have to say goodbye on TALKBACK LIVE. I guess Wolf Blitzer is out in Rockville right now, where he is awaiting that news briefing to begin by Chief Charles Moose.

Thank you for joining me, and join me tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern Time for more TALKBACK LIVE, with our special guest, Senator John McCain.

Thanks for joining us today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 22, 2002 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville today.
Well, today, another deadly shooting, this time back in Montgomery County, Maryland. Of course, the question everyone is asking today: Is it the sniper? As police investigate the possible link, we focus on the letter left behind at another shooting. And we'll bring you one serial killer expert who says it may mislead the investigation. Also: anxiety in the suburbs. Is today's shooting a reminder that no one is safe? We will talk about coping with fear. So stick around, because we do have a whole lot to talk about.

But first, we want to get the latest on the investigation. Let's go to Daryn Kagan at the task force headquarters in Montgomery County, Maryland.

Tell us about this latest victim, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Carol, very, very sad: a father of two, a married man, a bus driver -- more on him in just a moment.

First, I want to talk about the fear and frustration that extends across Montgomery County and all over the Washington, D.C. area in light of this shooting. It started about 6:00 a.m. this morning, bus driver Conrad Johnson doing what he did many mornings, I believe. He worked for the county for the last 10 years. He was getting his bus ready in a staging area in a part of town called Aspen Hill.

He was by himself on the bus at the top of the stairs when a shot rang out and he was hit. He was airlifted to a suburban hospital in Bethesda. Doctors worked very hard to try to save his life, but he later tied. We'll have to wait, of course, for ballistic tests on the bullet to find out for sure if it's a match, but police are definitely operating on the assumption that it is.

And we have heard earlier today from Police Chief Moose, when he said that he believes that this killer has the ability and the willingness to go ahead and kill people of different ages, different genders and different races. Basically, he does not discriminate.

Let's tell you a little bit more about the man, instead of just focusing on the shooter. Let's focus on the victim today. Conrad Johnson was his name, 35 years old, as I mentioned, a father of two children, also married. And we're finding out from county officials that he worked for Montgomery County for the last 10 years.

If indeed it does turn out to be a match -- and it's looking like that -- he would be the 10th fatality and the 13th victim since these shootings began on October 2 -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Daryn, I did notice something maybe a little unusual. Chief Moose came out for the daily briefing. And it was quite a lengthy one. Also, he did not try in any way to talk to the killer.

KAGAN: Yes, well, as far as we know. It was different from the last two days, where he has sat in front of the cameras and looked directly in it and said send this message along. He has done that the last two days.

He said today, he didn't think it would be appropriate, given what happened, how another man had lost his life. It is possible, though, that he was communicating with the killer by certain language that he was using. But that's not for us to know at this point.

COSTELLO: Yes, it certainly wasn't apparent. Daryn Kagan, thank you very much for the update.

As Daryn mentioned, Conrad Johnson was shot when he stopped his bus near a wooded area in the Aspen Hill area. For now, authorities are treating the shooting as if it is connected to the serial sniper.

We'll go to Bob Franken. He's been at the scene all day long.

Is there still a police presence there, Bob?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, quite a significant one, Carol. You can still see that the bus that Conrad Johnson was driving before he stepped out of it and was gunned down, it's still there, over my shoulder.

And the police are out in the woods, going back and forth, scouring the woods from the ground, looking for any pieces of evidence. As the day has worn on, very observers, including CNN producers, have seen evidence markers put down. They also, at one point -- and we have a picture of this -- watched police officers take a plaster of Paris cast of what appeared to be a footprint. Of course, that's a common police technique. We don't know if it was anything of huge significance or if they are just touching every base.

I can tell you that, hours after that, the police were still scouring the area from the ground. They were still flying a police helicopter low over the area and hovering for considerable periods of time so they could see if they could spot anything from the air. Just a little while ago, we watched as police carried out a yellow bag. We don't know if it was just sort of the potpourri of anything that they have found that might be useful or whether they had found something that could be significant.

And, of course, as everybody is pointing out, they're operating on the premise that this was the work once again of the sniper who has wreaked such havoc over this area for almost three weeks. I should point out that this particular location is just about a half-mile from where the shooting spree began -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Another question I had for you: Where do police believe the shot came from? Because we have heard reports it came from pretty close by that bus.

FRANKEN: Well, let me turn just around and show you.

If you can see where the bus is, right adjacent to the bus, on the right side of the bus, is a wooded area that has a basketball court. It's a basketball court that is connected to an apartment complex across the street. Police have spent the most part of their day searching that area and the area immediately behind that.

And then, of course, there would be an area behind that where there would be the network of side streets and all this thing which would allow somebody to escape and very quickly disappear into the night, particularly given the shock that would follow when anything like this happens.

COSTELLO: Can you give us an estimate of how far away that basketball court is from the bus? Is it 30 yards? Is it 100 yards?

FRANKEN: Oh, I would guess it to be probably in the order of 20 to 30 yards, something like that. But somebody who would be back there, maybe a little bit further back from there, would be, particularly that time of day, really hidden from view. It was dark. It was -- although 6:00 in the morning, as you know, it is dark much later these days. And it was really dark outside, like it was night.

COSTELLO: Understand. Thank you for the update, Bob. Appreciate it.

We now have more information, too, about the contents of that letter, that letter that was found near Saturday's shooting in Ashland, Virginia.

CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena joins us now from Washington with the latest on that.

And, Kelli, does the handwriting in the letter match the handwriting on the tarot card that was found earlier?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources so far have said no, that the handwriting does not match. However, there were similar words or phrases that were used in the letter that were also used on the tarot card. And those phrases, specific phrases were not made public. So investigators do believe that this is a legitimate communication from the sniper. And they're working on that premise.

COSTELLO: And we also heard there was a mention of money in the letter, a lot of money, and if that money was given to the sniper or snipers, maybe the killings would stop. Is that correct?

ARENA: Well, according to our sources, there was a hint at a demand for money, although no one has characterized the amount for us. And, yes, it was allegedly connected to a threat of more killings.

COSTELLO: The mention of schoolchildren in the letter, can you expound on that for us?

ARENA: Yes, there was a threat in the letter that mentioned, if certain demands were not met by a certain time, that schoolchildren would be killed.

Now, this is information that CNN uncovered early yesterday, but we were asked by law enforcement officials not to reveal that information, because there was a great deal of concern that that information could jeopardize the investigation or even put the community and children at more risk than they already were.

Unfortunately, there were some news organizations that chose to publish that information. And so we are now coming forward to at least let our viewers know that that is indeed accurate information, at least according to our sources, Carol.

COSTELLO: Another question I had for you: If the handwriting doesn't exactly match, but some phraseology matches this tarot card that was found, do police believe that it's still absolutely connected to the sniper or that it could have been written by two snipers?

ARENA: Well, there's always been an open question there. And investigators are not limiting this to the theory that it's one sniper, or even that the sniper is male or not working possibly with a female counterpart.

Those are theories, speculation at this point. So, someone else could have, if he's working with someone else or she is working with someone else, maybe they wrote the letter. Or perhaps it was an attempt to disguise the handwriting. We do know that there was a phone call that came in to authorities in which, according to sources, there was a tape recorder or voice device that was used to try to disguise the voice.

And you heard from police officials yesterday making a plea to that individual to call back, because officials could not understand what was said on that phone call.

COSTELLO: So, wait a minute. Was it an actual voice device that the person may have been using?

ARENA: Well, that's according to our sources. They think that it was something like that, a voice synthesizer or a tape recorder that had somehow recorded and then tried to disguise the voice that was used.

So, officials couldn't decipher all of what was being said, which is why we heard that appeal yesterday for that individual to call back. Now, it's not clear -- and there's been no official confirmation -- whether or not officials were talking directly to the sniper or perhaps to an accomplice or perhaps to someone who has been acting as a legitimate tipster and providing information.

COSTELLO: And we also don't know that the police got any kind of callback.

ARENA: Well, so far. We've been checking with sources throughout the day. And there is absolutely no indication case yet -- it's still early in the day -- but there's been no indication that, A, there was a letter or any new information found at this most recent shooting site -- which, we must remind our viewers, has not been linked yet by ballistic evidence or any evidence to the previous shootings.

But nor has there been any phone call, at least according to our sources, after yesterday's plea by the police.

COSTELLO: OK, good enough.

Kelli Arena, thank you very much for your fine reporting work. We appreciate it.

When we come back: inside the sniper mentality -- a letter, a tarot card and a phone call. Will the sniper be caught using his own words? We'll ask a panel of law enforcement and security experts, as the search for the sniper intensifies.

Don't you go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): Messages from a sniper: Is the killer reaching out to police? And could it lead to a capture?

JOE COFFEY, SON OF SAM INVESTIGATOR: Communication always helps, because it gives you an opportunity to figure out what's going on in his mind.

COSTELLO: More on the investigation, as the search for the sniper continues, on TALKBACK LIVE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: We remain concerned about the safety of all the people in our region. We realize that the person or the people involved in this have shown a clear willingness and ability to kill people of all ages, all races, all genders, all professions, different times, different days and different locations.

We certainly encourage everyone to remain cautious, vigilant about their activities, to remain observant of anything out of place, anyone driving away from an area erratically, anyone behaving strangely or in a way that maybe is not themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Today's shooting comes just as authorities appear to have made contact with the sniper. Will opening the lines of communication bring police any closer to catching this killer or killers?

I want to go to our guests now: in New York, Paul Ragonese. He's a former police countersniper for the New York City Police Department; and in Washington, CNN security analyst J. Kelly McCann.

Thank you both for joining us this afternoon.

Now, we just want to operate on the assumption that this most recent shooting is connected to the sniper.

Kelly, I want to start with you.

Is this shooting any different than the others?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Just today, Carol, we looked at the objective. If you think about it, it has a lot of the same elements.

And those elements would be that there's an area to egress to. There's some cover and concealment. There's an open line of sight to a target. And that's what distinguishes it from the other targets. In military terms, a parking lot is what you'd call a target-rich environment. In other words, if you wait, sooner or later, targets will appear, because people are shopping, etcetera.

This is different, because this was an isolated spot where, by routine, county employees would pull their busses over, finish their logbooks, clean the bus, get ready to do the next route, which undoubtedly is done by habit. It wasn't as if a person could, by sheer opportunistic luck, happen on to that. This was carefully planned. It shows a level of sophistication that a parking lot doesn't.

However, we still can't have -- or I don't think there is any physical evidence yet to actually link it. So, at this point, it has all the earmarks, but it is not confirmed.

COSTELLO: Yes, we understand that.

Paul, I want to ask you about that.

This was meticulously planned, according to Kelly there. You're an expert in snipers. Can this guy really be considered a sniper or is this more of an ambush killing?

PAUL RAGONESE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, a sniper is an ambush killer. What he's doing is standard operating procedure for any sniper or countersniper. He's doing his homework. He's scouting the area where he wants to take his shot. He's only taking one shot. He's secreting himself. And one of the things that I've noticed is, I've never noticed heard any of the witnesses say they saw a muzzle flash, which makes me believe he's using a flash suppressor on the gun. And I believe he's using a bolt-action gun, where the round wouldn't be ejected from the gun and he wouldn't have to look around for it in the dark.

COSTELLO: And this wouldn't necessarily have to be a large weapon either, would it? It could be taken apart, I'm saying, and concealed.

RAGONESE: Well, yes. Any sniper gun, countersniper gun, .223 round, just for argument, a Remington 660 -- that's what we use in the emergency service unit in the police department -- you could take it apart. You unscrew the barrel, take the stock off and take the bolt out.

And you can put it in a bag. You could literally stick it down your pants and walk away from the scene. And nobody would notice.

COSTELLO: I understand.

Let's take a look at what we know. There have been seven shootings in Maryland around this Aspen Hill area. You can see two in Aspen Hill, one in Bowie, one in Kensington, one Silver Spring, two in Wheaton, and one in White Flint. All of these areas, well, they're fairly close together. They would be no more, oh, I would say a half- hour drive from one another.

And now the killer has returned. And I'm going on the assumption that this latest shooting in Maryland is connected to the sniper. But the last shooting occurred 90 miles south of Washington. Now he is back.

Does the number of shootings that occurred in Montgomery County suggest that this is the killer's home base, Kelly?

MCCANN: Two things, Carol. First, I just want to return to the last commentary, which was excellent. But, still, don't -- we can't get hung up on the type of weapons. No one has reported seeing an AR- 15, an eyewitness that says that is the type of weapon. No one has reported a bolt-action weapon.

And, as the other guest well knows, there are weapons 14 inches in length, breech-loaded, hunting-format, long-format pistols that chamber a .223 cartridge that can be scoped. So I think everybody needs to step back. And I'm sure everything is realizing this, that a direct eyewitness account has not been managed yet. We've not had any reports.

But to your other question that goes in line with this one, no, we can't assume that, just because there's been a multiple number of murders in Montgomery County and that it started there, that he lives there, or she or they, because there is no physical, unequivocal evidence that points that way.

COSTELLO: Gotcha. Paul, I wanted to ask you this. Chief Moose came out. It appeared he did not try to communicate with the killer this time. Do you think the tactics have changed?

RAGONESE: I've gone through some cases in New York City. I was in the bomb squad and we had serial bombers. And the pressure on the chief or the commissioner is tremendous.

I think he's trying every aspect to solve this case. We were taught, though, in counterterrorism you never negotiate with a terrorist. And while he might not be an international terrorist, he might not be a domestic terrorist, his acts are terrorism. He's terrorized a whole community.

So, we were taught, you never negotiate. You never cater to a demand of a terrorist. But I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And I really have sincere pity for the whole crew down there, because the pressure must be unbelievable to solve this case.

COSTELLO: Oh, you're right about that, just incredible pressure.

Stick around, because we have to take a break right now.

Could police use the sniper's words to set a trap? We were just talking about that.

I want to hear from you on this, though. Call me at 1-800-310- 4CNN or send me an e-mail: TALKBACK@CNN.com.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Of course, we are talking about the Washington area sniper and how to catch a killer or killers. With us now: Kelly McCann and Paul Ragonese.

Thank you for sticking around.

Paul, I wanted to expound on something that you had said before we hit a break. You said that you really don't think it's a good idea for police to try to negotiate or communicate in any way with this killer.

RAGONESE: Well, they might want to communicate with the alleged killer, because you don't know if you're really dealing with the person that's responsible.

But every school that I've been through is, you don't negotiate. You don't be held to a terrorist's demands. There are other ways of catching, investigating and determining who these people are or person is.

COSTELLO: Kelly, I want to bring you in on this. Do you agree with that?

MCCANN: Well, there's competing theories. Paul knows that there are other ways to -- and he was careful not to go into those ways -- to deal with the issue.

But the thing is, is, that you have to be so careful that you don't inflame, that you don't aggravate, that you don't incite, that you don't say the wrong thing, because, truthfully it is an art, not a science, to try to determine what somebody's real motivation is, what their real intent is.

It's funny to hear us on the media, because we're calling them now "he, she, they," because there are so many unknowns. So it's hard to apply a strict process or a strict rule when there are so many variables that you don't know about.

COSTELLO: And I want to pose this to you both, too. A lot of people believe that this letter that police received or found at the scene of one of the shooting scenes, and also the tarot card that police found in Bowie, should be released to the public.

In fact, we have an e-mail about that right now. I want to read it for you. It says: "Since communication has not stopped the killer, why don't police release the written notes and see if anyone recognizes the wording, thoughts or handwriting?" This is from Eric in Idaho.

So why not, Kelly?

MCCANN: Because, again, we don't know what will incite, aggravate, agitate, urge to action this person. If in fact he's seeking faith and trust in the police community by trying to communicate with them, then in fact to reveal what could be, in his mind, an intimate note or message or whatever, would be a slap in his face. It's like standing on top of a basketball, Carol. You try to find that balance point, but it shifts every second. So it's very touchy.

COSTELLO: OK, we have another audience member who wants to say something, Joey from New York.

JOEY: Yes.

I think that they should release it, because, by them releasing it, they would be able to maybe make the people or person that's doing it nervous enough to the point that they are going to lead more into it, as in where they're going to make their next shooting, and possibly you could have an undercover agent there just walking along and possibly catch him at the time, being very notable and

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Sounds like a best-case scenario, but Kelly said you really shouldn't agitate him.

Paul, what do you think about all this? RAGONESE: Well, in every investigation, you hold back some intimate information regarding the case, so that only the perpetrator of the crime would know about it, so, when you do have the individual, he would be the only one, because, during these type of scenarios, you get literally hundreds of people who want to confess. They want their 15 minutes of fame. They want to throw their name into the ring. But you try to hold back something that only the killer would know.

And as far as him being afraid that, as a result of releasing this information, the police -- this person or this group of people, they're cold-blooded. To put a scope on someone's body, on their torso or their head, and to pull the trigger is a cold-blooded act. And being in that -- coming from that business, even when you did have to do it, you did it to save other people's lives. You didn't do it to take an innocent victim's life. So I don't think anything's going to shake this person.

COSTELLO: OK, thank you both, J. Kelly McCann and Paul Ragonese, for joining us today.

Coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE: He has studied serial killers and their communications with police. Now we're asking him about this case. Find out what Tomas Guillen has to say about the serial sniper when TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We have been talking about the sniper's apparent attempts to communicate with authorities. And joining us now, Tomas Guillen. He's an associate professor at Seattle University who has studied serial killers and their messages to police. Welcome to the program.

TOMAS GUILLEN, SEATTLE UNIVERSITY: Good afternoon.

COSTELLO: Tomas, first I want to talk about this letter that was supposedly written by the sniper. It's quite a lengthy letter. What does that say to you about him or her?

GUILLEN: Well, in my mind they want to communicate. It sounds very simple, but they have something to say. And I know that they're killing, but they have something to say. And I think police are right in trying to establish a line of communication to get him to speak his mind and say what is bothering him.

COSTELLO: The mention of money in the letter seems strange to many people. It doesn't seem to fit the pattern here, if there is a pattern at all.

GUILLEN: Well, that troubles me also. First had you a communique that talked about power, you know, "I am god." Now you have a communique that apparently indicates (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some money. To me those are completely different motives. I would not think this case is about money. I think this individual has something to say.

They're more dysfunctional; they want power. But I don't think it's about money. So I think the killer may be trying to throw the case off or misdirect the investigation.

COSTELLO: The way the letter was found was strange, too. It was found in Ashland, Virginia, outside of this Ponderosa restaurant, where a man was shot in the parking lot. And the note was like nailed to a tree in the woods behind the restaurant. Is that any sort of message for police?

GUILLEN: Well, not in my mind. You know communiques come in all different forms. They might be nailed to trees. I've researched cases where they send poetry, they send diagrams of crime scenes that are so detailed they look like pictures. They send telephone calls. So communiques come in different forms: in the mail, and sometimes they even mail pieces of evidence to prove that they are the killer. So that doesn't surprise me at all.

COSTELLO: But by communicating in this way through a lengthy letter, is the killer trying to taunt police or is he or she trying to get more credit?

GUILLEN: I think both. They are trying to taunt police, they're trying to play with them, toy with them, tell them that they can do better than police officers and so forth. To me, the bottom line, I looked at six cases nationwide recently in research, and to me an underlying theme was this they want to be caught. The communiques are a cry out that they want to be caught but they can't get themselves to turn themselves in.

You had the weepy (ph) voice killer from Minnesota. And he would call frequently to police and cry and say he was going to turn himself in but he couldn't do it. And so, to me, that's what the communique is. They are killing, but it's a method of saying that they want to be caught basically.

COSTELLO: But aren't there simpler ways to do that?

GUILLEN: Well, simpler ways? They're in a psychological state (ph); they're dysfunctional. They've got a problem or somebody has done something to them. They may have been victims before they became suspects, in fact. And so I don't think it's anything simple in this case, not when you're dealing with psychiatry, psychology and dysfunctionalism. Nothing is really simple.

COSTELLO: And talking about the strangeness of this case, communiques that came from other serial killers were sort of one-way conversations to police. This killer seems to be trying to create a dialogue, to have a two-way conversation. What does that say about him or her?

GUILLEN: Well, if you look at the past, there have been communiques sent, and they appear to be one-way conversations. But police didn't attempt to communicate with them. I think in every case they can try to do that. The killer wants to talk. The killer has something on his mind. And the question is how can police get him to speak his mind? There's a lot of static, there is a lot of media. Society is interested in this. There are a lot of things getting in the way of a good, clear conversation. And police are trying that but it's very difficult.

COSTELLO: Well, we've heard how police are trying to do that by giving these cryptic messages through the media. Does that sort of thing work?

GUILLEN: Well, I mean, it does work in the sense that they do respond. They are listening. If you look at the zodiac case of San Francisco, at one time a police chief said, I don't believe that the zodiac killed this individual. Well, then a communique came around with a blood stained shirt and a message (UNINTELLIGIBLE) said, I'm listening and I did kill this individual.

It does work. The question is whether they should be cryptic or should they release more information? I believe that police should hold something back for polygraph, but I do believe they could release more of the letter, because this is the moment when people are paying attention. And if there's something in the writing, something in the tone, that will help police now, not a year from now when they want to rejuvenate some tips.

COSTELLO: Got you. We have a phone call from Kim (ph) in Arkansas. Kim (ph), are you still there?

CALLER: Yes, ma'am.

COSTELLO: What do you have to say?

CALLER: A question, please, for your guest. Do you think possibly that this shooter is a current or former policeman? That he knows how the police function and how they think, escape routes and everything? Is he still a cop maybe? I don't know. Thank you.

GUILLEN: Well, I don't know and everybody's guessing. Some people have guessed military, Vietnam. I don't think it's necessarily a police officer. There are a lot of people who know rifles, there are a lot of hunters, there are a lot of people who are very good shots. There a lot of people who took ROTC and never went into the military in college or in high school. It could be anyone.

And I don't necessarily think it's police. They're just type A, they prepare, they look at the ground, they're smart, they're cunning, they use common sense.

COSTELLO: Tomas, stick around. We have to take a break. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back with much more on the D.C. area sniper investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE, more on living in fear. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody know when the next thing will happen. People cancel soccer games, schedules are rearranged, high school football games are canceled. To this point we still have not seen this person or persons. We have no idea who it is.

COSTELLO: We'll talk about today's shooting and what it means to a region already victimized by the sniper. And tell us what you think. TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Of course we're talking about the D.C. area sniper and the things he supposedly left behind like this letter in Ashland, Virginia and also a tarot card in Bowie, Maryland. I want to introduce our guest, once again. Tomas Guillen, who studies serial killers.

We didn't talk much about this tarot card and I do want to get into that. What do you think this tarot card meant and why is it so different from this letter that was left in Ashland, Virginia?

GUILLEN: Well, to me the main difference is that it provides a conflict in motive. The tarot card basically tells you he wants power, he wants to be god and so forth. And the other communique talks about money.

What that reminds me of is the lipstick killer of Chicago in 1946, where basically the killer wrote on the wall "Stop me because I'll kill some more." And then later on, to misdirect the investigation, he sends a communique asking for $20,000.

He had misspellings like he was a third grader, when in fact the suspect was a college student, medical student at that. So to me, you can draw parallels to this, where I don't think money is at issue and I think it's going to misdirect the investigation.

COSTELLO: Got you. We have Julie (ph) on the phone from Missouri. Julie (ph), what do you want to say?

CALLER: Hi Carol. I would just like to say that I think the community at large needs to start focusing on their friends, their family, co-workers, neighbors, because whoever is doing this, after three weeks, you -- almost three weeks, you would think that they would start showing some very significant signs of exhaustion and odd behavior. And I believe that somebody out there knows this person.

COSTELLO: Yes, what should people be looking for? If this sniper or snipers live in the Maryland area or in the Virginia area, what should people be looking for?

GUILLEN: Well, I mean, basically the chief of police in Montgomery was pointing some of those items out. And, basically, they're tired, they're secretive, they have used a weapon before, they've talked about using a weapon before. They have been dysfunctional; they've talked about hurting individuals. I think sometimes you can pick up on those vibes.

It's simply to say here's a list of items to look for. But I think if you know of an individual and they talk in a very odd way about hurting people, I think you should contact police and then let them decide whether there's something there or not.

COSTELLO: Tomas Guillen, thank you so much for joining us today. We've learned a lot from you.

Police are still trying. Of course they're determined whether this morning's deadly shooting of a bus driver is the work of the sniper. Either way, it's re-ignited fears in a county already hit six times during the sniper spree.

And, also, we understand that Chief Charles Moose, the Montgomery County police chief, will hold a briefing a few minutes from now. We'll go to that live from we have it.

Joining us now from Rockville, Maryland, though, Sharon Friedman. She is the executive director of the Montgomery Mental Health Association. Welcome.

SHARON FRIEDMAN, MONTGOMERY COUNTY MENTAL HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Hi. How are you?

COSTELLO: I'm fine. I can imagine you're busy these days.

FRIEDMAN: Indeed we are, yes.

COSTELLO: How many calls are you getting?

FRIEDMAN: Well, we generally are getting many, many calls through a hotline that we run from individuals just really wanting some supportive listening. Wanting to talk through how they're feeling, wanting some tips for how they can talk to their children about everything that's going on.

COSTELLO: We've heard that attendance is down in area schools. Can you tell us more about that?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think up until recently we've seen a real good attendance at schools. I think that most people in the face of everything that's going on are really trying to give our children as much normalcy as possible.

COSTELLO: How much normalcy can there be when schools operate in a code blue status? When kids get off the school bus and run zigzag into their school building?

FRIEDMAN: Well, when you have those kinds of variations of your normal pattern, as adults, I think what we have to do is give our children as much of the routine as we can within the face of the crisis situation. And that are things like making sure that the adults give lots of hugs and kisses to their children, that when the families are together, they're spending quality time. That they are talking about the facts but talking about the facts in age-appropriate ways, because you're right, there is so much chaos associated with this situation, so it behooves us as adults to protect the children when we're with them.

COSTELLO: All right. Thank you.

We have to take a break right now. Police in Montgomery County, Maryland will hold a news conference very shortly. Of course we will bring that to you live. Stick around.

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COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Another reminder for all of you out there, there is an expected news briefing that's going to happen any moment from Montgomery County. We believe it's going to be held by Chief Charles Moose. We will keep you informed. When it happens, we'll go directly there live.

We're talking about the fear factor in the Washington area right now. And many members of our audience have a lot to say about that. Danielle (ph), would you go to Washington, D.C. right now?

DANIELLE: I would not. I have a comfort level that I like to have when I travel and I don't think I would have it being in D.C.

COSTELLO: You have friends in Falls Church, too?

DANIELLE: I have a friend of a friend who doesn't feel comfortable going out and doing simple things, shopping, getting gas in her car. It's not a comfort zone that she would have now.

COSTELLO: We can understand that. Other members of our audience feel differently. I want to go over here and I want to talk to Joey (ph), because you have a planned trip to D.C. in just two weeks. Are you still going to go?

JOEY: Yes, I am. I'm still going to attend that trip.

COSTELLO: Why?

JOEY: I'm going up there for a business trip and to visit friends. And, for me, it's not going to bother me that he's out there or she is out there, because I'm going to still go and hold my head up proud, because, one -- I hate to say it like this and I do feel sorry for the families that this has happened to -- but for me, one minor thing compared to everything that's happened in the past couple of years is not going to stop me from living my life and trying to go on with my dreams.

COSTELLO: You're not going to let fear -- you're from New York. I just want to point that out to let people know what you're talking about.

I want to head back out to Montgomery County and check in with our expert there. Sharon, what do you think about that? The tourist industry is apparently way down in Washington, D.C. at this time. What do you say to tourists? What do you say to people who want to visit Washington, D.C.?

FRIEDMAN: What I say is that, as your guests point out, everybody's comfort level is different. And you know in the face of the chaos, you have to decide what is the best scenario for you. You know, and if the scenario is that you are comfortable coming to visit our area, then that should be the thing that you pursue. And if at this particular time you're not, then that's OK, too.

One of the things that we really are trying to impress upon the residents of the area is that you may need to make some adaptations to your normal schedule. For example, if exercise is something that really helps you through difficult times and you are used to exercising outside, well then maybe you need to be doing some exercising at a health club or in your own home. So I guess what I'm saying is that there really is no right answer for how to deal with this trauma.

COSTELLO: You know, I wanted to ask you this, too, and you've given us good advice. But it's sort of like the entire community has been taken hostage and that this sniper or snipers is the kidnapper.

FRIEDMAN: Yes. I think to some degree that analysis is true, but I also am very, very proud of the way that our community has been handling this, in that people have really striven, for the most part, to try to go about their daily business to the best of their ability within the context of everything that's happening.

COSTELLO: All right. Sharon Friedman, thank you so much for taking time out of your business day and joining us on TALKBACK LIVE.

We're still awaiting that news briefing to begin. So we're going to take a break, but TALKBACK LIVE will be right back.

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COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We are still awaiting that news briefing out of Montgomery County, Maryland. It's rather a surprise it was not announced beforehand. But you're looking at the podium there, and, as you can see, all of those microphones are ready to go. When it does occur, of course we will go there live.

We want to go to the Pentagon right now to talk with Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr, who has a new development to tell us about. Barbara, what is it?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, just like the rest of Washington, D.C., an awful lot of stress and tension with the local workers here in the Pentagon today. A couple of hours ago, the Arlington County Police Department received a phone call which they do now believe was a crank call, which led to this search of the Pentagon grounds that you're seeing here. This was earlier today just about an hour ago. Military personnel and local police authorities began a search through the woods, as I said, after receiving what they think now was a crank call from someone claiming to have knowledge of some person in the woods here alongside the Pentagon; someone possibly with a weapon.

They conducted a search, a lot of tension and stress here around the Pentagon, but then came up with nothing. They could not find any evidence. They do think it was a crank call.

COSTELLO: And, Barbara, it looked like they had small tanks patrolling the grounds there.

STARR: Well, quite interesting, those are called Humvees. Those are wheeled vehicles that are military police that we have had here at the Pentagon since the 9/11 attack. These are part of the rotating active duty military forces and National Guard and reserve forces that now protect the Pentagon. And security personnel have told us that certainly they have stepped up security in the last couple of weeks around here, but this indeed since the September 11 attacks is one of the most secure places in Washington.

Nonetheless, when they got this report, they immediately started using these military vehicles and military personnel to conduct a sweep through the region. The military is very sensitive to all of this. We can also tell you, ironically, the U.S. Marine Corps base of Quantico, just about 20 miles south of Washington, was scheduled this week to begin their annual sniper competition. It's a military sporting competition, military, Marine Corps sniper teams from around the world were going to be at Quantico competing for what they call the best of the best in military sniper teams.

They canceled that competition. The military, the Marine Corps saying they realized it would just be inappropriate to have such a sporting event at this time in the region. And earlier today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld here in the briefing room again talked about the fact that the military is lending its support to the search for the sniper. There are several military Army surveillance aircraft patrolling the skies over Washington on a random basis.

We don't talk about when, how, where, but they are patrolling the skies. And Defense Secretary Rumsfeld pointed out that this was a very unique thing for the military to be doing. He said, "We don't do it frequently and we don't do it lightly. And we do do it in a supporting role." The military trying to lend its support to law enforcement here in the nation's capital -- Carol.

COSTELLO: We can certainly understand that. Thank you, Barbara Starr, for that update. Very interesting.

We have a viewer calling in. Michelle (ph) are you there?

CALLER: Yes, I am here.

COSTELLO: What do you have to say? CALLER: My question is, by the publication of the media being so widespread, aren't you keeping the sniper in contact and letting him know exactly where everything is? Like there was a map mapped out to show exactly where he had hit, and that he had traveled down to the bottom and he's moving...

COSTELLO: Right. I understand a lot of people have that criticism of the media that we're letting too much information go. Do we have an audience member who wants to add to that? Michael (ph), from Ohio, what do you have to say?

MICHAEL: Yes, the comment was made in the last report about the crank call. How do we know that it is a crank call and be sure of that? I mean why attention isn't being drawn to these areas for specific reasons, that something else might happen in another location, how can they be so quick to rule out that...

COSTELLO: Very good point. We can only express what police are telling us.

We have to say goodbye on TALKBACK LIVE. I guess Wolf Blitzer is out in Rockville right now, where he is awaiting that news briefing to begin by Chief Charles Moose.

Thank you for joining me, and join me tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern Time for more TALKBACK LIVE, with our special guest, Senator John McCain.

Thanks for joining us today.

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