CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Search Warrants Executed in Sniper Investigation
Aired October 23, 2002 - Washington, D.C.; Violence; Crime; Murders ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We have a major panel that will join us in just a moment, but first we're going to go Washington and CNN headquarters where Kelli Arena is standing by. She is our Justice Department correspondent and she is on top of this going on in Tacoma. What -- take us from the top. What is this all about?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Larry, sources tell us that there were search warrants executed in Tacoma, Washington, in relation to the sniper investigation.
We are also told by sources that federal investigators were most interested in a tree trunk on a residential property in relation to possible target practice. What investigators are looking for are bullets or shell casings, possible weapons on the property as well. We are told that the search is not being conducted in connection to an individual but rather the property itself.
An FBI and ATF agents also part of the sniper task force were on the premises. We are also told that, possibly not even connected to this, but perhaps, we are expecting the police chief, Charles Moose, in Montgomery County, at least according to federal law enforcement sources, to come out shortly and announce the name of two individuals who are wanted for questioning in connection to the sniper investigation.
Our sources were pretty stern and said these are not to be described in any way as suspects or possible suspects, but rather people that investigators have a serious interest in talking to. They at least expect that the Police Chief Moose will make that announcement sometime this evening, although we haven't gotten any official word, Larry.
KING: And there also may be an FBI press conference, which we will carry, of course. And we're running commercial-free tonight so we stay on top of this story.
Kelli, who got the first tip on the Tacoma link? Was it based on a letter from the suspect? I mean, why Tacoma?
ARENA: Larry, it's not clear at this point. One source suggested that it was information that was fed into investigators here in Washington although that has not been -- we have not been able to confirm that with a variety of sources.
And I'll tell you, on this story we have really tried to build a consensus on our sourcing because there are just so many different agencies involved and little bits and pieces of information that sometimes people are not able to connect those puzzle pieces properly for us.
So I can tell you that at least according to one source it was information that was called in to the sniper task force that led investigators across the country to Washington state for this search warrant.
But a little bit of a hedge here, Larry. There have been other search warrants issued and searches conducted.
KING: Oh, really?
ARENA: Yes, in relation to the sniper investigation that have led investigators nowhere. So, this may be a dead end. It may not be. But it may be. So we have to let our viewers keep this in perspective.
KING: So this could be much adieu about nothing or could be something major? The other day we thought we had something major with the white truck at the gas station. Turned into a kind of -- almost a comedy of errors. Is anyone optimistic about this?
ARENA: Well, they're certainly taking it seriously, Larry. And unfortunately, all of this is happening under the glare of the video camera lights. And lots of optimism and hopes are raised.
But again, this is an ongoing investigation, and investigations are usually not conducted in public like this. So to sort of get the reality check here. They've been hopeful before. It hasn't panned out. They are pursuing, they're trying to prioritize leads. Obviously, this was a lead that got some priority.
And obviously, to get onto a property you have to show probable cause. Even if it's a consensual search, you have to go before a judge and say, Hey, look, you know, we think we have very good reason to be here. So obviously, that was -- it was a convincing enough argument.
KING: Kelli Arena, and she'll be standing by in Washington for any further developments. She's she's standing by at our bureau there.
Let's meet our panel.
In New York is Steve Kroft, correspondent and co-editor of CBS News' "60 Minutes." In Washington is Mitch Miller, who's been covering the sniper story for WTOP radio and CNN.
Here in New York, Bill Daly, former FBI investigator, senior vice president of Controls Risk Group.
In Minneapolis is Pat Brown, the famed criminal profiler, CEO of the Sexual Homicide Exchange. That's a Washington-based criminal research and profiling organization. And she's got a book coming out soon called "Killing for Sport: Inside the Minds of Serial Killers." And here in New York, Dr. Michael Welner, associate professor of psychiatrist, NYU School of Medicine. He's interviewed spree killers, consulted for the defense and prosecution in more than 20 states, and also developer of the depravity scale, an effort to provide a standardized forensic definition of evil. He's chairman of the forensic panel, the first and only peer-reviewed forensic practice in the United States.
Steve Kroft, what do you make of this whole thing from Wednesday, October 2, to now?
STEVE KROFT, CBS' "60 MINUTES": Like everybody else, I don't think there's an analogy. We've never had a situation like this, where so many people have been killed and where the authorities seem to know so little about what's going on. No evidence, apparently. And everybody -- the thing that I find most amazing, looking today at an aerial photograph in one of the papers, how he -- how this person is able to get in there, pull the trigger, and get out without anybody seeing him.
KING: Does this Tacoma thing look encouraging to you as for a lead?
KROFT: I think like Kelli said, there have been so many red herrings in this investigation, it's hard to place too much emphasis on it. But you want to believe it. You'd like to think that they have some names or some information that is helping them gear in on a couple of people.
KING: Mitch Miller, what's your read on this Tacoma story?
MITCH MILLER, WTOP REPORTER: I think caution is definitely the byword here, as both Steve and Kelli have pointed out, I mean, we can go down a lot of different alleys and a lot of these investigative techniques are used, of course, every single day in all kinds of investigations, and sometimes we just don't know where they lead.
Of course, you alluded to it earlier. We had the shell casing that was found in that box truck just recently. And that just turned out to be nothing. And there are a lot of different things that happen during an investigation like this that we just don't know where they're going to go.
And just to show you how edgy things are here in Washington, I mean, just late in this afternoon we had a school bus driver who said that she thought she saw someone point a gun at her school bus along I-270, one of the busiest highways in the Washington area. That brought traffic to an absolute standstill once again in the Washington area until everything was sorted out. It wasn't really clear whether a gun was actually pointed.
But it just goes to show how edgy things are here in the Washington area.
KING: Bill Daly, what is it we do with tips? If someone called now from Minneapolis and said, you know, there was a guy in the backyard next door shooting with rifles and he seemed kind of strange and he hasn't been here in three weeks, would you go converge on a Minneapolis house?
BILL DALY, PRESIDENT, CONTROLS RISK GROUP: Well, if they based it on that Larry is the system they have set up right now, prioritizes leads, it takes a look and sees whether or not it's corroborated with any other information that comes through.
So it's based on a priority, what requires taking a look at. I mean, right now they're getting literally thousands of tips.
KING: So based on your experience, what do you think was called in to cause them to make this kind of thing, search they're doing in Tacoma?
DALY: Well, I believe, it's my opinion, that there was probably some information that corroborated with some other information that came about through either sources, people they interviewed, observations, and they've now decided they had enough to go before a judge, get a search warrant, and have gone in there and expended certainly a lot of manpower.
KING: They're leading you to believe, are they not be, that the suspect once lived there? I mean, isn't that the --
DALY: Well, if we read -- but just kind of reading through the video shots here, is that's what's being suggested. But as said before, is that we need to proceed with caution, treason being is that, you know, in these investigations, apart from the eye in the sky and apart from, you know, international news networks on these investigations, these type of twists and turns take place all the time, and we have to be careful that we don't start reading into the video clips and say, Gee, it was the guy who lived there two years ago.
KING: What would it say to you, Pat Brown, if this was someone who lived in Tacoma and has come East to do this?
PAT BROWN, CEO, SEXUAL HOMICIDE EXCHANGE: Well, I would find that a little bit strange because the patterns that I've seen up till now, Larry, seems like the guy really knows his area. He really knows Montgomery County, Maryland. He really knows Spotsylvania, Virginia. He seems to be running a pattern back and forth between the two.
So it would seem to me he's a fairly long-time resident. So I'm not too sure what this tip is that came in. But I want to also say I'm glad they don't have total tunnel vision, because one of the problems with cases a lot of times is you get your theories, and I certainly have mine, and I would say this is the one I'm thinking most likely the theory.
But if you get tunnel vision and don't look at anything else, you just may miss out on the exact thing that's going to catch this guy.
KING: Dr. Welner, is this guy enjoying this?
MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: No.
KING: He's not?
WELNER: If he had the capacity for enjoyment, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about a spree crime.
KING: So what is going through him if he's let's say watching this now?
WELNER: I believe that he's very conscious of how much evidence the police have collected. I think that that's why he --
KING: Is he methodical?
WELNER: Well, I think he's -- I don't think that his spree has been methodical. I think that it has been sophisticated in terms of his thinking ahead of time about how to get away with this.
But when this started nobody was looking for him. Now everybody's looking for him. And every time he kills he leaves evidence behind. And if the police missed him by five minutes, he knows the police missed him by five minutes, and he knows that if he does this again he leaves more evidence.
What's in Tacoma? Maybe what he buried at target practice, which matches a ballistic or maybe irrelevant, of course.
KING: By the way, we will include phone calls during this hour. We're running commercial-free a special edition of "LARRY KING LIVE," and you can call in. We'll be taking calls for our panel. If there is any kind of press conference during the hour, of course, we will go to it.
Steve Kroft, journalistically, why has this story pushed elections, Iraq, everything to page 2?
KROFT: There's never been anything like it in my lifetime that I can remember. That's one thing. And I think it's like something out of a -- it's a movie. I mean, in some ways it's Hollywood. It's the kind of things you see in movies and on television shows that never really happen in real life, only this time it's happening in real life.
KING: Why are we fascinated by this suspect? That's a correct word, fascinated.
KROFT: I think two things. I think it's random, so everybody is a potential target. And I think it's the fact that he does not seem to be leading any evidence behind -- at least that we know about -- other than these notes. And it's amazing to me that in a suburban area the size of Montgomery County and Virginia, around Washington, that somebody could actually shoot 13 people without so much as, we're led to believe, a reliable witness...
KROFT: ... not license plates, nothing, nothing.
KING: Not one reliable witness.
Mitch, as a reporter, do you have a personal fear?
MILLER: Well, I share the same concerns that every average citizen here in Washington does. I mean, you just have to be concerned about your personal safety to a certain extent.
But on the other hand, like a lot of people did today with their school children, walking their kids to school, a lot of parents showing a little bit of a different attitude today -- I think a little -- some of them a little more defiant, saying we're tired of getting rattled by this individual.
And it was just mentioned that this person could have been caught within a matter of minutes. That's actually very true. I mean, we have learned today that that gas station that the calls were made from recently in the Richmond area, where the two immigrants were picked up, that it appears, law enforcement authorities believe the sniper had actually been at or near that phone only minutes away. So very -- a lot of frustration, I think, from law enforcement knowing that they literally almost had this person in their hands.
KING: Bill Daly, you're a former FBI investigator.
How much of the FBI now is concentrating on this? I mean, they've got a lost work to do in a lot of states, right? And there's a lot of agents out there, and there's a lot of crimes.
DALY: A lot of crimes. You also have terrorism that we're fighting.
KING: So how do they determine what kind of focus they put on this?
DALY: In this case, Larry, they'd be drawing from both the headquarters facilities, support the forensic examination of information, coordinate really the plethora of data they have. And you have to realize that, at any one time in this case, you have multiple jurisdictions where they're gathering evidence which they hope to use in prosecution. They hope to bring to court.
You have to make sure that this is handled in a chain of custody. So you have people assigned to handle just the administrative side. Plus you have people on the ground from the field offices -- both out of Maryland -- which I'm sure they're drawing out of Baltimore, Virginia, coming up from Richmond, as well as Washington field office.
KING: And how are they using their profilers?
DALY: The profiles, I think what we've seen now is pretty much the profilers supporting, really direct support to Chief Moose and others. In fact, I would suggest that what he's saying is pretty much orchestrated and scripted by the forensic profilers, by the behavioral science people. It helps them put it all together. KING: Let's go back to Tacoma, Lilian Kim reporting for CNN. Our entire panel is here, Lilian. And if any of them, Steve Kroft, Mitch Miller, or anyone, have questions, we'll have them throw them as well.
Anything -- what's the latest to report there?
LILIAN KIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The FBI spokesperson did speak to reporters a little bit ago, and she didn't reveal much. She was very tight lipped. The information that we have, we have some sources and according to sources, as you already have heard, is that they have removed a tree trunk, that they have sawed up at its roots. They then wrapped it in plastic before sending it off to evidence.
This search began earlier this afternoon, and they expect it to be wrapped up in about an hour or so. So it looks like they are closing in towards the conclusion of this search. And there is a lot of media people here. There are a lot of neighbors here. Of course, they are very surprised that this quiet neighborhood in Tacoma is the -- is now the center of an intense search, of a case that is happening clear across the other side of the country.
So very interesting developments here -- Larry.
KING: Is the thinking, Lillian, if it's a tree trunk they're looking for remnants of bullets?
KIM: That is the belief, that they think that that trunk could have been used for target practice, and may contain bullets or bullet fragments. So they are looking closely at that.
KING: Steve, you have a question for Lillian? Lillian, it's Steve Kroft. Go ahead.
KROFT: Hi, Lilian.
Is it known who lives there?
KIM: Neighbors tell us that the current owners aren't the subject of this search, that it was the previous tenant. That is according to a neighbor. We haven't gotten much information from the FBI because they haven't really said anything to us here. So it is the understanding of the people who actually live here that whoever may have used the tree trunk as target practice wasn't used by the current occupant but the previous tenant.
KROFT: And nobody -- you haven't been able to find out yet who that would be?
KIM: At this point, we do not know.
KING: That had to be some tip.
Mitch Miller, do you have a question for Lilian?
MILLER: I was wondering when it was made clear that this search warrant was actually served. Was it served earlier this morning? Because we were trying to find out how it came back to investigators here in the Washington area.
KIM: I'm not exactly sure of the time line, but we do know that search warrants have been executed. So we do know that obviously they did not enter the grounds before they had a search warrant. But as for the exact time line, we are not sure of that. Again, they're being very tight lipped here, not releasing a whole lot of detail. So information that we're getting are through sources, and the information is being -- slowly being leaked out.
KING: Thank you, Lilian.
I'm sorry, Mitch. Go ahead.
MILLER: I just had one more question. Any indication whether or not that forensic evidence would be examined there or is likely to be shipped back out here for FBI and forensics experts to look at in Washington?
KIM: So what was the question? I'm sorry. Whether it's going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KING: Are they going to examine it there or in Washington, D.C.?
KIM: They haven't said one way or the other.
KING: Alright, Lilian, you stand by. We'll be getting back to you.
By the way, what will they do, Bill, just with the periphery you know.
DALY: Just based on what we're seeing here, because to expedite this, I would imagine they'd have the evidence specialists look at this collection, whether it's out of their log or whether we saw them with magnetometers looking through the back yard to see if there are fragments.
If they picked anything up, they would immediately ship that over for examination. But I don't they'd wait to ship the whole log, I think they'd go to try to take samples out of that and ship that back as best as possible.
KING: By the way, you can continue calling in. We will be taking calls.
Pat Brown, this is strictly a what if, strictly hypothetical. If this person or persons did live there in Tacoma -- Pat is not there. I'll ask Dr. Welner.
BROWN: I'm here.
KING: Oh, Pat is there. They just told me you were gone.
BROWN: Oh, no, I'm here. KING: If this person did live in Tacoma -- if that was his house -- what's going through him now watching this?
BROWN: He would obviously be a little worried that they're going to obviously make the connection. But I say this is still so speculative. I do want to back up on a point that I really disagree with. I think that this guy is enjoying the heck out of this game he's playing.
First of all, he's not a spree killer. He started out killing a bunch of people in one day to get the media attention, and then he moved to a regular serial killer pattern of shooting and taking downtime. He's playing a huge game, and he's envisioning himself as the biggest serial killer that ever hit the world.
He's envisioning himself perhaps as the Tarot card sniper or some such name, and he's hoping the book will come out. And I can tell you right now there's deals being made for books. And he's probably thinking Morgan Freeman can play Chief Moose, and I wonder who they are going to get for me? He's having a marvelous time. This is his fantasy come true.
KING: Dr. Welner, do you want to respond?
I'll be happy to tell you you're right after I have the opportunity to interview him and he has the opportunity to tell me exactly what he was thinking when he was going through this.
KING: Your guess is the opposite?
DR. WELNER: My guess is only based on precedent and not based on the presumption of what's going through him emotionally.
KING: What do you make of -- that there's nothing journalism can do here, Steve, but speculate. I mean, what else can we do? You see a tree trunk, you speculate about the tree trunk. You see Tacoma, you speculate. And isn't this kind of, for want of a better term, weird as a reporting area?
KROFT: If we reported what we knew, everybody would write two inches.
KING: We wouldn't be on.
KROFT: That's about it. The reporting would be confined only to the circumstances of the crimes. But I think everybody is trying to reach out and come up with some sort of answers and speculations. And I think the police, in some ways, is feeding that with the daily news conferences. I mean, Chief Moose stands out there every day and doesn't answer any questions. And it's very frustrating.
KING: Bill, what is the effect of the press on this? How does the FBI view us?
DALY: Well, you know, Larry, back when I was in the Bureau, first thing we were taught was, you know, everything's on a need to know basis. And I remember press conferences where, you know, here the perpetrator is, you know, is who he -- either arrested or here's the number you want to call if you have information. There was very little of this dialogue.
I've seen over the years, probably the last half a dozen years, this development where police need to come out and have periodic conversations with the media. Now, I don't know which side is driving which. But I've seen this change where we've had more of a dialogue. And I would probably say in this case, when it first started having press conferences, was I think kind of a post-9/11 feeling that we need to connect, we need to tell people what's going on, we need to put them at ease and slowly we realized that at the same time, that kind of empathy, that kind of pouring forth, was being used against them.
KING: Mitch, do you think you're getting less than you deserve?
MILLER: Well, I think the police are trying to provide as much information as they can. Certainly they don't want to put out too much information because they don't want to undermine their investigation. So, you know, as reporters, we have to do a lot of reading in between the lines and probing and asking more questions.
Just one example today -- the police chief, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose, held a news conference in which he discussed the fact that they were basically reaching out to immigrants in the Washington area, suggesting that perhaps they may have seen something that they just hadn't come forward with, information related to the latest shooting, which incidentally, we had to make the inference that it was likely the sniper.
That indeed was confirmed, that the bus driver that was shot yesterday was in fact shot by the sniper. So there is a lot of -- you have to learn a few things every few minutes. And in connection with these -- their immigrant appeal there was a question related to, Well, if you are essentially going to give these people a bye, if you will, if they have any immigration problems, what about the two men that were arrested down in the Richmond area when they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
So sometimes you get some contradictory information and you just try to sort out the best information you have at the time and go with it.
KING: What's the effect, Pat Brown, what is the recommendation of people like yourself, if asked, would make to the media -- would make to the FBI or the police as to what they should say and not say?
BROWN: Well, I've been very concerned about the amount of press conferences Chief Moose has been giving from the very beginning. He's put himself out there as the nemesis for this serial killer. The sniper is looking at him and going, ah-ha, here's the opponent in my game, kind of like a big comic book superhero thing.
And Moose keeps coming out and he keeps talking and he gets very emotional, and then he's communicating with the serial killer, which I think is a terrible idea. I don't think you ever communicate with serial killers like this.
And I think what he should be doing is getting a spokesperson out there to give a very plain and to the point information to the media and to the citizens and stop playing these very long speaking games, which the serial killer is just enjoying the heck out of. And that's why he's writing these letters to the police and making them jump through hoops, and I don't think it's a healthy thing to do.
KING: Dr. Welner?
WELNER: I think there's a lot that the police department can do, and I think that the media can actually make things better.
Why is it that now we're facing a situation of national panic and concern that's on the proportion of post-9/11 terrorism and the media dealt with law enforcement and rescue agencies after 9/11 by giving them a wide berth, by being supportive, by being encouraging and in the press conferences that we're seeing the media is confrontational?
The by-product of that, and I think -- you know, I'd love to hear what Bill has to say about this, but it puts the police in a defensive posture. It forces investigators to perhaps be overzealous. From a forensic psychiatric perspective, that's how I end up getting involved in cases where people claim forced confessions. And these are the types of case that's they happen in because there's so much pressure because the police are always hearing that they have failed instead of we're watching your back, we're all Americans, we trust you because we need you to protect us, so please do your best, and we're right behind you and we will collaborate in helping you to identify the killers.
KING: Is that right, Bill?
DALY: Yes, I mean, I would go along with pretty much all of what you said. And kind of getting back to my point, which is, you know, sometimes the least said the better. You don't open yourself up to this kind of we don't know, we're speculating, are you, you know, questioning these people.
WELNER: But there's one main thing missing. And that is the people of Maryland and Virginia don't know what to do. And in Israel and other places that have achieved -- that have experienced disaster and terror, right next to them, the way they avoid panic is that everybody knows what to do. If you say go look for something suspicious, well, that's fine.
So what do I look for? What's suspicious? Do people really know what they should be noticing? Do people really know what the boundaries of their vigilance should be? And if people are informed and they're aware and they are collaborating with law enforcement, I think people will have more confidence. Based on the experience of where we've seen it work elsewhere.
KROFT: I have -- I would disagree just on the analogy between the relationship between the press and the authorities after 9/11. It's an entirely different situation. Here you have an ongoing crime spree that has been going on for I don't know how many days now in which
KING: October 2.
KROFT: Three weeks, right? In which very little progress -- no, I change that. No progress has been made that we know of. It was the police chief who initially criticized the media for releasing parts of the..
KING: Tarot card.
KROFT: The Tarot card. And I think he started off the adversarial relationship. At one point, he says that -- at one point he criticizes the press for putting out information. And then the next day he comes back and wants the press to cooperate with him. I think the media down there, and I think one of our jobs, is to report information when we get it as long as we don't think it's going to jeopardize a hot lead or something that is about to break. It's one thing if we know that they're honing in on somebody, getting close to something, they've got a promising lead, and when you've got no information at all.
KING: Your role is what?
KROFT: To get the information out there. That's always our role. To tell people what we know and what we're able to find out.
KING: But Mitch, not at all costs, right?
MILLER: No, not at all costs. Certainly, you want to, as we've talked about before, make sure that you listen to what law enforcement is telling you behind the scenes. And certainly, there's all kinds of information coming out from behind the scenes.
Whether it's detrimental to the investigation, we saw the reports that began in "The Washington Post" today that questioned some of the interagency cooperation and some of the backbiting that goes on, or whether it's just overt information that we're getting out to the public.
But as Steve said, that's really our predominant role. We just need to get the information out to the public. And I think, unfortunately, if you look through history, if we only relied on what the police wanted to tell the people about an investigation at that time, I don't necessarily think we'd be better off.
KING: We're going to start to include your phone calls, but we want to go to Kathleen Koch at the command center in Rockville, Maryland, for an update as to what's happening there.
We're supposed to have a press conference or not, Kathleen?
KOCH: Well, Larry, when we spoke with the people upstairs, the public information officers here at the Montgomery County Police Department. They said they have no confirmation whatsoever that any decision has been made to have any sort of press conference tonight or make any announcement. Now, they are, though, not behind these closed door meetings that Police Chief Charles Moose is involved in. So that decision could have been made, they may not be aware of it. But they're saying no decision has been made to have one tonight. So we wait.
KING: And now let's go to the -- our Pentagon Correspondent, Barbara Starr, who has some news on what these two witnesses that they want to talk to -- is that it, Barbara?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Larry, defense officials in fact, are now confirming that they do have what they call a high level of interest in two individuals. They are not calling them suspects yet. They are not calling them witnesses. All they will tell us this evening is that they know law enforcement has high interest in two individuals, one of which had prior military service in the army at Ft. Lewis, Washington, within commuting distance, certainly, of Tacoma.
What we also know now, Larry, is this person, one of the individuals who did have prior active-duty military service, was not sniper trained, was not in special forces, but was part of the conventional side of the house at Ft. Lewis, someone who had some expertise in combat support missions.
But the fact that military officials have some familiarity this evening now with the service record of this person and the name of this person, though they've certainly not disclosed that to us, suggests this is someone who they are looking at quite seriously as someone they urgently want to talk to.
KING: Does that lend you to think, Barbara, that this is someone who might know the suspect?
STARR: It's hard to say at this point. They will tell us again that there are two people, one with prior active duty military service. And they just simply don't know. But there is certainly something that has drawn them this evening to both of these people as people they urgently do want to talk to.
KING: Kathleen Koch at the command center, has there been optimism increasing over all of this there?
KOCH: Well, Larry, I think there's been a clear sense of momentum, you know, since this dialogue began on Sunday with the first of these five messages that Police Chief Charles Moose had sent to the killer or killers because things have really been seeming to be bogged down in the investigation.
You know, we'd had the red herring the week before where that supposed witness had seen so much, and then it turns out apparently that they had made it all up, that at the site of that shooting down in Falls Church, Virginia.
So I think there had been this feeling that things were at least moving forward. There was a dialogue beginning. Perhaps the police could convince this person or these people to stop. So again, these developments tonight only lend to, at least, optimism on the part of us here that this will all be over. We live in this community, Larry. We have families here, we have children here, and we want it to end soon.
KING: Let's meet -- I want to reintroduce our panel again. Steve Kroft is correspondent and co-editor of CBS News "60 Minutes." Mitch Miller has been covering the sniper story for WTOP and CNN. Bill Daly is the former FBI investigator and senior vice president of Controlled Risks Group. In Minneapolis is Pat Brown, criminal profiler and co-author of an upcoming book, "Killing for Sport: Inside the Minds of Serial Killers," and in New York, Dr. Michael Welner, associate professor of psychiatry, NYU School of Medicine. We're going to also include some of your phone calls.
This is a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE, commercial-free. Let's go to New Waterford, Nova Scotia -- hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry and panel members.
CALLER: I'm just wondering, with all the coverage this is getting, and people getting back to life, will this sniper become bored and just drop out of sight like the Zodiac killer?
KING: Possible, Dr. Welner, that he just leaves?
WELNER: I think the -- I think it depends on how he sizes up the increasing pressure and avalanche of evidence that is against him. If he sizes up that if he goes out looking to hunt and to continue to hunt, that he may well be caught or that the evidence will tie him in, then he may decide that it's not worth continuing, but that depends on whether it's enough for him to be notorious in his own mind, rather than to be exposed to the public. That worked for the Zodiac killer, but we don't know him well enough to know whether it's enough for him.
One thing we can say, if this money demand is not a con, and there's actually something legitimate, then it does demonstrate that he needs an incentive to continue to do this, because it's not enough for him to put himself out there anymore.
KING: Buy that, Bill?
DALY: Well, I feel as though this person -- first of all, we get into the money issue, is that money is not the end game here. This person got into it, and this is just another way to show control and show leverage, whether it's $1 million, $5 million, $100 million, it doesn't really matter. The money is not the issue. It's watching the police, it's watching the media react. So I believe that this person has gotten fixated on this coverage and I don't believe that he will just disappear. The only thing that might drive him to ground will be information, perhaps, what we're seeing tonight, or we may see another night where we see, you know, tangible evidence that this person now says, ah ha, they're on my trail, and starts to run. Other than that, I think, you know, he's into it for the long haul.
KING: We have joining us now a member of the Tacoma Police Department, Jim Mattheis. Are you there, Jim?
JIM MATTHEIS, TACOMA POLICE DEPARTMENT: I'm here.
KING: OK. What was your involvement in all of this today?
MATTHEIS: Well, we were notified by the FBI about 10:00 this morning that they needed assistance in securing a scene in the 3300 block of South Procter (ph) which is in the city limits of Tacoma. And that's where we've been. We're actually just securing the scene now.
KING: And what did you observe?
MATTHEIS: Well, we've had, I guess, about 15 of our officers out here today just doing scene security, along with probably about 15 FBI agents that have been here on the scene.
KING: Did they tell you what they wanted with that tree trunk?
MATTHEIS: All those questions have been referred to the Seattle office of the FBI.
KING: What was your reaction to all of this, as a person who's read about this story from 3,000 miles away, to suddenly have it hit home?
MATTHEIS: Well, I think it's -- you know, if anything, with national security right now, it can happen in anybody's back yard. The president's been very clear that everybody has to remain vigilant. So I don't think anybody is innocent in any of these cases, no matter where you live.
KING: Steve Kroft of CBS wants to ask you something, Jim.
KROFT: I just am curious whether you know anything about the progeny or the -- about the people that have lived in that house prior to the current tenants.
MATTHEIS: Again, those questions are all -- we've been told have to be referred to the FBI office in Seattle.
KING: What's been the interest in the community? Are there a lot of people gathering around looking at all this?
MATTHEIS: Yes, right now just in the neighborhood, I would guess we've probably good 100, 150 onlookers in the area.
KING: What kind of neighborhood is that, Jim?
MATTHEIS: It's an older part of town, all residential. KING: All right. Thanks for reporting to us, Jim. We understand that Police Chief Moose of Montgomery County will name the two individuals that they want to talk to sometime later tonight.
What do you make of all that, Mitch, these two people?
MILLER: Well, it's certainly an interesting bit of information, and going back to the report about the military ties, that would seem to -- in some way be connected with what's happening in Tacoma. My understanding from some of the people that live out there is that that is a community that has a lot of military people that live there, not far from the base. So maybe there is some connection there. I really couldn't say exactly how these people might be in some way interested -- that law enforcement might be interested in these people. But clearly, they want to ask them something about something that they know, either related to the sniper or related to possibly something in someone's background related to the sniper.
KING: Pompano Beach, Florida -- hello.
CALLER: Hello. If these two people of interest are, in fact, connected and they are suddenly becoming on the run, is that going to be a good thing, and is that the intention, to get them on the run?
DALY: Yes, you know, it's a very interesting question, as we were just talking about it, I was thinking that to announce people's names is one thing. That shows to me that they've gone, tried to knock on the door, and tried to see if they're home, or tried to locate them, and they can't.
So, apparently, these two people are not attainable through normal sources. Otherwise, they would have just gone and talked to these people and we wouldn't probably have known about it until after they talked to them, if we knew about it at all.
So it's interesting that by naming the people, they're actually going to solicit help in trying to find out where they are.
KING: So they would be using...
DALY: So they would be using, and they would also be, in this case, I believe, people that important that they're going to be going out and asking for people to provide assistance.
KROFT: And I think it goes back to what -- the point made that Bill made earlier, I think one of the ways to stop it is to put them on the run, and I think the one thing that would put them on the run and make them stop would be a sense that the police are getting close. Pictures, descriptions, photographs, anything like that that could help identify and pin somebody down.
KING: Pat Brown, wouldn't you think these two people would want to help? BROWN: Well, it depends on their situation. They would want to help if they just happened to be out of -- you know, just moving around and not realizing that there's a problem here. If they're immigrants, and I'm not sure if that's what they said before, after watching what happened down in Richmond, that debacle down there, where the guys get taken away by Immigration, they sure as heck don't want to talk to the police because they think they're not going to be treated properly.
And of course, if they're connected, they're obviously not going to want to talk to them either. But if this is the only way to contact them, then the police have got to do what they've got to do to get the information in.
KING: Good idea to name the names, Dr. Welner?
WELNER: Well, we had that guy in West Virginia that we were looking for around the Elizabeth Smart investigation, and he didn't turn out to be involved. So I think -- I'm just the headset guy. I leave the law enforcement stuff to the law enforcement people. But I would say this -- I think that what's remarkable about this case, I've already said my opinion, that I believe that it's a spree killing, is that the person responsible has not left Washington, and that people who conduct these types of prolific, destructive acts, stay on the run, whether they're identified or whether they aren't. It's quite obvious that people are looking for the person responsible. Something is keeping him there. That's a very important component to this, to understanding what the motivation is.
KING: And what do you make of that as a former FBI investigator?
DALY: Well, my take on it is that, you know, there may be some roots in the area, there's something that has connected him there in the past, but I think right now what's connecting him is the fact that these are the people he's been able to manipulate, these are the people who have this focus. If he goes to another location, he has to work with different personalities, gather a feeling for a different group of people.
Plus, you know, this is not somebody who really wants to hide in the dark because he's still shooting the same weapon. That's how we've been able to connect them all. That's his calling card. If this was somebody who didn't want to get caught, wanted to travel around, they would have changed weapons, they would have moved randomly, and that would be even more difficult.
KING: What happens if he panics, Pat?
BROWN: Well, I want to say, Larry, first of all, this is what makes him a serial killer and not a spree killer, first of all. He's working in an area where he's very, very comfortable. Serial killers tend to work their territory. They don't just go to another location and start committing crimes because they don't feel comfortable there, they don't think they can get away with it, and they want to slither in and slither out and be able to blend in so that no one notices them. That's how serial killers get away with their crimes, and that's why so few serial killers are actually caught. And this guy's doing the same thing. He's probably going to work every day, so when people see him arrive at work, and when he comes home and does other things, they say, Well, it's probably not him because he's just a normal guy like us, even if he's weird and psychopathic. They still think because he's doing daily routines it's not the guy.
KING: Pat, hold on one second. The truck you're seeing on the screen, for those watching us and not listening on the simulcast on radio, is the truck that gathered evidence, I guess the tree trunk and other things, from that house in Tacoma, and they're taking it to wherever they're taking it to.
Now back to the question, Pat. What happens if he panics?
BROWN: Well, I don't know that this guy's really going to panic. Serial killers tend not to panic. The most likely thing he'll do if he thinks they're coming close is simply stop and go on with his normal life and have the arrogance to think they'll really never actually catch up with him. So I don't think we're going to see a panic situation here.
KING: New York City -- hello.
CALLER: Yes. That was kind of the answer to my question. I was wondering if this link to Tacoma could possibly -- they feel set him off watching this tonight.
KING: What do you think, Dr. Welner?
WELNER: I think we don't know what's going on here. I mean, we've got notifications from the federal government that they were worried about Seattle because they thought that it was a great place for al Qaeda to set up shop. And we have no idea whether this person is focusing on the Washington, D.C. area because this is a terrorist act. It certainly might explain why he hasn't gone away. It certainly might explain why more than one person would be involved in a crime that we normally associate with alienated people.
Now, I have not been inclined to consider terrorism, but I think the level of organization of a crime like this, already with precedent of al Qaeda operating with single, lone wolves in the United States, LAX a great example, you know, all bets are off until they answer the magic question, which is what's the guy's name? And then we know immediately.
KING: Bill Daly, why are you shaking your head?
DALY: Well you know, Larry, early on in this I think there was more of a window of possibility. We need to look at terrorism. I think as time has gone along is that I've narrowed that window down. You still always keep that possibility out there, but there's certain things here you see afoot.
I would point out three factors. One of them is that terrorists usually act to have some significant event out there that they conduct that sends terror throughout the country. This is terrorizing people nonetheless, in this area and getting us all concerned, but it's not something of a significant event that's tied to a terrorist group.
No. 2, if we thought or if the law enforcement thought there was some connection, we would have seen the joint terrorism task force, we would have seen another posture by the government getting involved.
You know, and the third part of this is that if this was a terrorist we would have seen a much more stealth type of operation, one that as I mentioned before, larger pattern spread out. You wouldn't see evidence you wouldn't see Tarot calls, you wouldn't see calls coming in. They're not out there to taunt the police or do a cat and mouse. They're out there to make an impression and kill people.
KING: Dawn Scott of KIRO TV in Seattle is on the scene in Tacoma. What can you tell us, Dawn?
SCOTT: Well I can tell you it looks as though they're wrapping up their investigation here in this -- what is normally a quiet neighborhood of Tacoma, Washington.
If you take a look behind me, just a couple of houses down this block here, which has been blocked off by Tacoma police, there is a duplex, and that is where the FBI and police have focused their attention today. A duplex they believe to be connected to the sniper shootings in Washington, D.C.
I can tell you that they were searching the backyard with metal detectors. I also spoke with a fire department spokesperson here in Tacoma, Washington who tells me that the FBI removed a portion of a tree stump that it appeared there may have been some sort of -- it may have been used as like a target for shooting practice.
But I do know that they did remove part of a tree stump and loaded it into a U-Haul van, which I can tell you just about five minutes ago left the scene.
We were told in a news conference about 5:30 or 6:00 this evening that they would only be here for a couple of more hours. And as I mentioned, it looks like things are wrapping up here right now.
KING: Thank you, Dawn Scott.
Let's take a call. Keane, New Hampshire -- hello.
CALLER: I'm calling to find out why they are allowing so much media coverage. Isn't this person or persons playing right into whatever's going on? You're giving him too much information?
KING: Too much, Steve? KROFT: Haven't gotten any.
KING: What information have you gotten, ma'am?
CALLER: I haven't gotten any. But I mean, aren't we telling him too many things about what we are doing? What you people are doing as opposed to what -- you know, he's going to play into it. If you say something, he's going to go out and do the opposite of what you just said.
KROFT: I'm not sure the media knows that much about what's going on and what's really happening and what the police are doing. I don't -- there's been some coverage. But obviously, from the developments that are going on in Tacoma tonight, we certainly don't know anything.
KING: We could sum up three weeks and we don't know.
KROFT: We don't know.
KING: Kelli Arena is the Justice Department correspondent who began the program, is back with us with an update -- Kelli.
ARENA: Well, Larry, sources tell us that there is an intense debate going on among law enforcement officials over whether or not this is the right time and whether a press conference is the proper forum to release the names of the two individuals that law enforcement officials are very seriously interested in talking to.
Obviously, they are not aware of their location. It is not clear whether or not they think that they should hold this off until they try to investigate and find them on their own or if they come out tonight and release those names.
But intense debate going on right now. Federal sources had expected earlier, fully expected that we would get those two names announced in a presser this evening, and now this that may not be happening.
KING: Bill Daly, what do you make of that?
DALLY: Well, you know, Larry, I think this is, from a law enforcement perspective, this is a good turn because what they're doing is they're really trying to think and orchestrate this in the proper way, in the proper sequence. Is that rather than kind of let's go out there, as I mentioned earlier, let's just tell them what's going on, and field questions. A lot of times when there's an answer, even we don't know suggests that, well, they really don't know or do they know and they're holding back on something.
So I think in this case they're taking a proper spin effect on it and thinking it through and determining when it's best to announce the names, when it's best to tell them what they're doing about this evidence, when they're going to have a press conference, and it keeps everyone guessing, including, including this suspect, this sniper.
KING: This is because there are three agencies involved here, right? And therefore three inputs.
DALY: Not only three inputs. We're actually talking about many more inputs from state and local. We have Virginia, we have Maryland, we have county, we have federal. And so jurisdictionally, this gets very complicated, and who's going to step up, who's going to announce it...
KING: Is the FBI in charge?
DALY: Officially, no. Officially, Chief Moose is. And local and state law enforcement. These are capital offenses, Larry, and that's where that should lie.
However, we have seen the federal agencies take more of a role in helping orchestrate this. And I think this is what we're seeing now, even getting back to the point of evidence gathering and assimilation for potential prosecution.
KING: Back to Dawn Scott of KIRO TV on the scene in Tacoma, what are we watching, Dawn?
SCOTT: You're watching somewhat of a mob scene, here. When police opened the scene that they've been investigating, this duplex here in Tacoma, a mob of not only neighbors, residents of Tacoma, and also members of the media rushing to the front door, or I should say doors of this duplex to see who it is that lives here, why in fact this duplex has been targeted by the FBI, and of course many curious neighbors, a lot of these people have not been able to get home this evening and are rushing in to see what is happening here.
We should get some answers soon as to what is going on here in Tacoma, but at this point we do have crews over there asking questions and finding out who it is that lives there and why their house was targeted here tonight.
KING: Yes, we don't know who lives there.
DALY: We don't know who lives there. Just one point. It seems to me like the back yard of a residential neighborhood. We saw it. It's not very big. It seems like a strange place to take target practice with a long rifle.
KING: Well, yes, that's weird.
Kelli Arena, is this story getting tougher and tougher to cover?
ARENA: It's getting very difficult, Larry. Source that's were willing to talk, at least on a, you know, background basis, are really clamming up.
The more information that's getting out, particularly when information regarding the second written communication from what investigators believe is the sniper came out, information that he made a demand for $10 million, had threatened children -- that really caused quite a change among members of the task force and among just law enforcement in general, that they're getting very nervous about information that's getting out because there's just no predictability to this case whatsoever.
This is something that no one has ever seen before, they've never dealt with anything like this before, and they just don't know what will set the sniper off and how to proceed. So, yes, it's getting more and more difficult.
And Larry, I wanted to clear something up. Earlier we had said on CNN air that there was a search warrant that was executed, and our sources have gotten back to us and said that actually, government lawyers were ready to execute a search warrant, ready to go to court for a search warrant. However, the individual who lives at that property consented, gave consent for law enforcement officials to go onto that property and conduct that search.
And again, we have to underscore that our sources are telling us that it is not the individual who lives there now that they were interested in but it was rather the property that they were interested in. So I wanted to clear that up.
KING: Good idea. Thanks for that. So a warrant was never officially served.
You're watching a commercial-free edition of LARRY KING LIVE tonight, covering this breaking news story. In ten minutes we'll be turning the podium over to Aaron Brown here in New York for more coverage, and we'll be staying on this 24 hours, keeping you updated with other headlines running along the bottom script on the bottom of the screen.
Pat Brown, would you say that things are looking better?
BROWN: Well, I don't know if I would say better. I'm just hoping that with the time frame we've got here, as each day passes, the police have more opportunities to follow up on the tips that are coming in.
It is also my hope that at some point they will release the contents of that letter to show the public the writing and the style of writing so that they can help identify this guy. This is one thing I don't know why they're withholding from the public. I think they're going to have to do this in order to get the public's help in identifying the suspect.
But it's hard to say whether the guy's going to keep shooting or he's going to stop. But he's playing a marvelous game with the police, he's having a great time, and he's using, what's really interesting is, he's using any justification he can for shootings.
Hey, I made five phone calls, and you didn't answer them, so I shot five people. Hey, you're not going to give me $10 million, I'll kill more people.
He's not really expecting he's going to get $10 million. What he's really doing is saying, It's all your fault that I have to kill these people. It's an old serial killer trick of blaming the victims.
KING: Barbara Starr, when do we learn the witnesses' names?
STARR: Larry, I think it will be up to law enforcement officials. It's clear tonight that more and more Pentagon, defense, and military people are beginning to learn the name and beginning to understand what's in play here, but they're certainly not revealing that name to us.
They are very adamant they will leave it up to the FBI and civilian law enforcement to take the next step.
KING: Mitch Miller, Mitch Miller -- what -- I'm sorry. I've got three people talking to me at once, and it got a little confusing. So I didn't hear what the person in my ear said.
Mitch, are you getting any word there on when you might learn this name if at all tonight?
MILLER: Well, as Kelli said, I think it's really up in the air, and it's ultimately going to be up to law enforcement officials to decide exactly when they want to release this information.
I think one thing that's important to know is when we get caught up in this moment of an investigation, the waiting for a name, for example, that we need to remember that sometimes these names later on, way down the road, sometimes they're forgotten, sometimes they become very prominent in the probe.
But of course, we learned some lessons from various incidents. You know, we've had the anthrax investigation here in Washington where several names have been bandied about, and people have been under investigation, and I think we always just need to be careful to remember the names that are being brought up, how they're portrayed, whether or not we're implicating them or whether or not they may have just some innocent link to what may be something much, much more.
So, of course, we can always go back to the Olympics in Atlanta and the Jewel case. So, it's just something to keep in mind as we move along, I think, in this investigation.
KING: Kathleen Koch, you wanted to add something about our friend, the police chief?
KOCH: This goes to the -- because Police Chief Moose has been very careful from the start. Can you hear me, Larry?
KING: Yes, I hear you. Go ahead.
KOCH: OK. Police Chief Moose has been very careful from the start not to implicate anyone in this case, not to name a name, not to put out a picture if they were not 100 percent certain. And we've had several false alarms.
The very first weekend after the shootings began there was a man who had been oddly missing since Monday, missing man, and then there was a report that he owned the type of gun that could fire a .223 round. They found him later on, a couple of days later. He was not involved in the case whatsoever. He had already sold his gun. Unfortunately, the man's name got out, it was broadcast. Chief Moose was very upset about that.
A few days later, there was a mentally ill man who began firing a gun in his home. Of course, the cameras swarmed over there, totally unrelated to this case. So Chief Moose himself, he used those words. He said he did not want to Richard Jewel anyone. This was off camera to the reporters. Because he said he didn't want to permanently damage someone's reputation.
And in this case, Larry, if they put out the wrong name right now or a name that was similar to, say, one in the community, could you imagine? I mean, there have been 10 people killed, 13 people shot. Not only the damage that could do to a reputation but the potential for a vigilante crowd that could gather.
KING: Kelli Arena, another update on the Justice Department side -- Kelli?
ARENA: Well, Larry, right -- you've got all that I've got. But one thing that officials have consistently pointed out is that you are watching the ebb and flow in an investigation. And any investigation is a fluid thing. This is something that changes minute to minute.
And so, this happens to be a very public investigation, and we're being let in on twists and turns that you normally are not let in on because of the high-profile nature of this case.
Again, as I said earlier, big debate over whether or not to release those names. No clear indication on whether or not a decision has been made.
KING: Steve Kroft, all in all, and the odd part of this coverage is years ago, before all news television, this would have just been seen on the 6:30 news, right?
KROFT: And you would have had two minutes, two-and-a-half minutes, maybe four minutes from two different reporters bringing people up to date on what had happened or not happened during the day.
KING: And now you have a rolling flow and obviously more opportunities for error.
KROFT: It's true. And it's very -- you know, if you're a reporter and you're sitting here on the set, it's very seductive to see finally a piece of evidence or a piece of information, and immediately we begin talking about it and we probably jump to all sorts of conclusions that you have to go back to the beginning and say, We don't know whether this is going to be anything or not.
KING: Does the FBI like the CNNs? Like having this coverage?
KROFT: I can't speak for the FBI, but...
KING: Do you like it?
KROFT: I certainly like CNN. But I can tell you...
KING: I mean do you like the fact that what happens in stories like this, you get suppositions?
KROFT: You know, I think, Larry, it's not a matter of almost liking. I mean, it is here. It is what it is. And it changed from having, you know, film at 11:00 to where we have, you know, constant coverage, we're watching a truck with a tree trunk in it go down the streets, you know, in the northwest of the U.S. And we're all wondering what it is.
I mean, it is part of our fabric now. And the question is, Does it impede the investigation? I think following what Steve said earlier, if you take prudent journalistic steps to make sure you're not releasing information that is going to harm anyone or compromise the investigation, that's OK.
The rest of it is it's a matter of life and they're dealing with it, and I think eventually, we'll see a better way to handle press conferences come out of this.
KING: Kelli Arena, you have something else?
ARENA: Yes, Larry. We've just learned that police in the D.C. area have issued a lookout for a 1990 Chevy Caprice that is blue and burgundy with a New Jersey license plate. This car being sought in connection with the sniper investigation.
Once again, it is a 1990 Chevy Caprice. It is blue and burgundy in color with a New Jersey license plate, Larry.
KING: Hey, Mitch. Things are neverending.
MILLER: Never a dull moment, unfortunately. And it is tough because you get so involved in what's happening minute by minute. Literally, we're sitting here as information is coming in, coming into our ear, coming in from a piece of paper here or there, or coming in from a phone call, and as Steve pointed out and as Kelli has pointed out, we just all need to sometimes take a deep breath and just say, What do we know right now? What is the next step?
And certainly, there are going to be a lot of interesting steps over the next hour, over the next 24 hours.
KING: And we'll be right on top of it. We only have a couple minutes left.
Pat brown, is all news television beneficial to this?
BROWN: Well, I think it's going to help if the police use it properly and get out a good list of information as to what the public should look for in the suspect, which they haven't done yet.
A clear list like the other person was saying on the panel, that we don't know what to look for. They need to very specifically say that on a daily basis so that people can start looking. The media will be very, very helpful in that because how else is it going to get out to the people, all the citizens in the area, 24 hours a day so someone can turn in the information? I think it's great.
KING: Helpful, dr. Welner?
WELNER: I look forward to the day when a community in Washington, everybody will get together, get all their kids together, and go out to an open field where there are no hedges. This could be done tomorrow. And all the parents stand around by perimeter and let the kids play.
Because what we need is normalcy and that's something that can come from the community because all of this news is vital, but it does take people out of that element.
KING: But are we adding to the abnormalcy?
WELNER: I think this is a necessary role of the press, but people have to know what they can do to protect their children and give them a sense of day-to-day normalcy, and they have to do it together.
And I hope that they do.
KING: Do you agree?
DALY: Yes, but I go back to my point, the fact that, you know, this is news, it's information, you put it out there. What people do with it is their own prerogative.
Whether they want to share it with their children, change the channel, you can do that. It's here to stay, and it's here, you have to deal with it. And it's the way investigations are going to be done further in the future.
KING: All right. As part of this -- in case you missed it. The Washington D.C. police are looking for a 1990 blue Chevrolet Caprice.
We thank Steve Kroft of "60 Minutes," Mitch Miller of WTOP radio and CNN, Bill Daly, the former FBI investigator, Pat Brown, the criminal profiler, and Dr. Michael Welner, the associate professor of psychiatrist at the NYU School of Medicine for participating with us.
We did not run any commercials tonight. Continuous coverage. And we'll continue that way as we stay atop this story here on CNN.
So instead of any breaks or any fall to rawl or opening credits, we're just going the scene over to Aaron Brown here in New York -- Aaron.
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