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CNN Talkback Live

Sniper Investigation: Two Arrested in Connection With Murders

Aired October 24, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Our coverage of the fast-breaking developments in the sniper investigation continues with a special hour of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer. I'll be anchoring the show from here in Montgomery County, Maryland, the hub of the sniper investigation. Thanks very much for joining us.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: And I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be anchoring from CNN world headquarters here in Atlanta.

We're going to try to answer the questions everyone wants answered. I'll ask experts about the suspects and a possible motive in the crime.

But right now back, let's go back to Montgomery County and Wolf Blitzer for the very latest in this case -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks very much,Arthel.

Twenty-two days after a deadly string of sniper shootings began in the Washington, D.C. area, there is a bit of hope and relief. Police arrested two men overnight, 41-year-old John Allen Muhammad and 17-year-old John Lee Malvo. Since that time, new developments have been streaming in.

Let's get right to all the late-breaking developments. Joining me here in Montgomery County: CNN's Kathleen Koch.

You've been following it very closely. Give our viewers who may just be tuning in the absolute latest. What's going on?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right.

Well, Wolf, as we know, very early this morning, around 3:19, SWAT teams were able to swoop in on this blue Chevrolet Caprice that had been spotted by a very alert motorist who apparently was in the area. This was near Frederick, Maryland, about 50 miles northwest of Washington, D.C. They found inside the vehicle these two men sleeping. Again, police aren't calling them suspects, but that's who we believe are in the sniper case.

Now, at this point, after the men were apprehended, they were questioned here in Montgomery County. And now they are being taken to face a federal court appearance in Baltimore. We don't know if that has taken place yet, but it is due to take place at some point this afternoon.

What did they find in the car? Law enforcement sources tell CNN that they did find a Bushmaster .223. Now, that type of rifle is capable of firing the .223 rounds that have been used, as far as we know, in all 13 of the shootings. Apparently, some black bags were also found in the car.

Now, the car, as we know, had New Jersey plates. And there was a search that was conducted before this lookout was put out to reporters last night of the apartment in New Jersey. That's according to New Jersey Police Captain Joe Richardson. They haven't yet told us what they have found in this apartment. This is an apartment to which these plates, this vehicle was registered to.

Also, of course, we all witnessed the lengthy search of this home, the backyard of this home in Tacoma, Washington. This is apparently where we were told that at least John Allen Muhammad had lived for some period of time, FBI, ATF involved in a very lengthy search there yesterday. We saw them remove a tree trunk. We are being told that they were examining that for possible bullet fragments.

Also, you see they had that tape spread out across the backyard, where they were looking for not only bullet fragments, but shell casings that might connect to the sniper shootings here in the Washington, D.C. area.

So, right now, at this point, Wolf, we're waiting for a briefing. We had been promised a briefing earlier today at noon. Then it got pushed to 1:00, 2:00. Now we are hearing 6:00. p.m. So we are hoping at that point perhaps to hear about any ballistics match that might have been made with this weapon that was found in the vehicle.

BLITZER: Of course,, we'll have live coverage right here behind me and you from Montgomery County.

KOCH: I'll be here.

BLITZER: Kathleen Koch, thanks for that.

The suspects are expected in federal court in Baltimore, Maryland, this hour.

CNN affiliate WJZ reporter Suzanne Collins is outside the courthouse.

Suzanne, from what you can see and hear and what you have heard, what is happening?

SUZANNE COLLINS, WJZ REPORTER: Well, first we saw a great presence of police officers, the Baltimore City SWAT team arrived. They surrounded the courthouse. We had bicycle officers. We had a helicopter overhead. And that is very unusual, because they don't normally have that kind of security. And that indicated that one or both of the suspects were to be arriving here.

Since then, we did notice one federal car -- and we have some video of that that we can show you -- pulling into the parking garage beneath the federal courthouse building. And I am to learn from a law enforcement source that that is the 17-year-old who arrived first. At this point, we are still waiting for John Muhammad to arrive. And we understand that is to happen perhaps within the next half-hour, 45 minutes.

There are no federal charges against the 17-year-old. So what we will probably see happen is, we will see John Muhammad have an arraignment before a federal magistrate here in the court after he is processed. And at that time, we're not sure right now whether they will be allowing us all into the court, because they say they have major security concerns and they haven't quite worked out those details. But that is what we are anticipating this afternoon.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Suzanne Collins, of our affiliate WJZ. She's on the scene for us in Baltimore. We'll be touching base with you, of course, periodically.

A big break in the sniper case came from a link to a shooting in Alabama. A woman was killed and another wounded outside a liquor store on September 21.

CNN's Brian Cabell is joining us now from Montgomery, Alabama. He's picking up that part of the story -- Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for those of us who were wondering for the last day or so what the connection was between Montgomery County, Maryland, and Montgomery, Alabama, we found out earlier this morning.

What we found out was, they have found fingerprints here of John Malvo connected to a crime that was committed here some five weeks ago. About five weeks ago, September 21, at this ABC beverage store in Montgomery, Alabama, two women were coming out of the store. They're employees. They were closing up the shop for the night when they were approached by a man from the back. He shot both of them in the back. He killed one of them.

He fled. A police officer ran after him, tried to catch him, did not catch him. He disappeared into the night. And now, as I say, some five weeks later, they have determined that in fact John Malvo, this 17-year-old sniper suspect, his fingerprints were found at the scene here. Apparently all this started a few days ago when someone called in anonymously saying that there might be a connection with a crime here in Montgomery, Alabama.

Sure enough, they checked into it. They have been working on it for the last three or four days. And today, they determined definitely that Malvo's fingerprints were at the scene here on the 21st -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian, but they have also said that the bullets used in Montgomery, Alabama, were not of that .223 caliber, similar to the bullets that were used here in the Washington area in this killing spree that's been going on. What do authorities say about that?

CABELL: All they're saying is that they were not .223. And they say it actually was handgun, in all likelihood. The officer who chased him said he did not have a rifle. It was not a long gun. It was a handgun. He won't give us the caliber, but he says definitely it was not a .223 -- so a different bullet, a different gun. But the fingerprints do seem to be a match.

BLITZER: And there is some sort of training gun range or training camp that's nearby there that's caused some early excitement that seems to have gone away. Fill our viewers in. Clarify that part of the story.

CABELL: Well, this training camp known as Ground Zero USA is about probably 50 miles to the northwest of here, thought to be a hot lead as of yesterday, a training camp where they said maybe had paramilitary ties, even Islamic ties, a lot of rumors circulating about, Wolf.

Also, there was the report that we got, fairly definitive, that the FBI had actually searched that area, that camp, within the last day or so. It turns out, we learned this morning, that was a false rumor. That was not a good report. The FBI never did search that area. In fact, the FBI has told us they have no interest in that area.

The camp director there, the manager, had told us last night repeatedly he knew nothing about an FBI search, about any connections possibly with the snipers. It turns out he was absolutely correct. The reports were wrong.

BLITZER: And getting back, Brian, to that killing on September 21 at that liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama, was it deemed to have been a robbery or a robbery attempt or simply a homicide?

CABELL: Well, the police chief is treating it as a robbery, because, apparently, the man who shot the two women was seen rifling through at least one of their purses. Apparently, nothing was taken. He apparently said almost nothing to them. He apparently shot them in their back without even accosting them, simply shot them.

So it's a rather peculiar crime, but they are treating it as a robbery because he was seen going through their purses. So it appeared he was trying to steal something, although apparently he was foiled because an officer started chasing him.

BLITZER: One woman was killed. Another one has survived. But tragedy, of course, occurred.

Brian Cabell, for us in Montgomery, Alabama, thanks for that report.

Coming up, we'll go live to Tacoma, Washington, where authorities searched the yard of a home yesterday. CNN's James Hattori is standing by there. He is ready to talk to us.

And, in Atlanta, Arthel, tell us what you have.

NEVILLE: Wolf, thanks a lot.

Right now, we have to take a break.

But when we come back, we're going to talk to a man who has studied serial killers for 20 years. Tomas Guillen will give us his take on the men in custody. Does this arrest make any sense? And what could the motive be in the sniper spree?

Keep it right here. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE (voice-over): A series of crosscountry clues lead police to the men in custody.

JOHN TIMONEY, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: You talk about making an argument for ballistics-identification testing, this will be it.

NEVILLE: What exactly is the evidence and where will it take us from here?

We'll talk to some experts when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back, everyone. This is a special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer on the scene in Montgomery, Maryland.

The investigation into this sniper attack has taken authorities all the way to Tacoma, Washington, where the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms have dispatched agents. They searched the backyard of a duplex yesterday looking for evidence.

CNN's James Hattori is joining us now from Tacoma with the Washington state connection -- James.

JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as you say, they did search the backyard of this home behind me, where John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo were living for a time earlier this year. They spent the whole day looking, collected a lot of evidence, including a tree stump, as we've all heard, which may have been used for target practice. We have been told they were looking for bullet fragments or possibly shell casings in the backyard.

And, obviously, this is material that they're going to be collecting, examining as they try to begin to build a case against these two suspects. Now, at the same time, federal agents also are were up in Bellingham, Washington, two, three hours north of here, near the Canadian border, where they seized some documents from Bellingham High School, where Mr. Malvo was a student for a time.

Now, we've also obtained some information about Mr. Muhammad's second marriage here in Tacoma and a restraining order that was filed by his wife. Apparently, it was a very messy situation that ended in divorce and accusations back and forth of child abductions. His wife at one point was hospitalized because of all the stress she had undergone. She had maintained in court filings that she feared for her life from Mr. Williams. His name was Williams at that time, before he changed it to Muhammad.

And they had three kids. At that period, they were aged 8, 10 and 6, I believe. A divorce was finally granted in October and September. But, in the filings, she is quoted as saying: "I'm afraid of John. He was a demolitions expert." She also told authorities that John came over at one point and "was not going to let me raise my children."

Afterwards, the temporary restraining order was filed. Her name is Mildred, by the way. She is the second ex-wife. At one point, the children were taken out of Muhammad's custody in Whatcom County, which is also in Bellingham, taken in custody of child protective services and then returned eventually to Mildred Williams.

The last legal filing was in September of 2001, about one year ago. Mr. Muhammad claims that his ex-wife improperly took the children, vanished and apparently caused some consternation. So this was a very messy situation between Mr. Williams and his second wife -- Wolf.

BLITZER: James Hattori, he's on the scene for us in Washington state. Thanks very much, James. We'll be checking back with you.

And we just want to reiterates what our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena reporting: Earlier, we were reporting what authorities were telling us, that there was this stepson-stepfather relationship between these two individuals, John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. We're told that, legally speaking at least, he was not, John Malvo was not the stepson of John Muhammad.

We'll be continuing to monitor that situation. But, for now, let's go back to Arthel at the CNN Center in Atlanta -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf, I'll take it from here.

Now, of course, we now know a little bit more about the suspects in this case. So do they fit the profile of someone who could commit these crimes?

Joining us from Seattle is Tomas Guillen, an associate professor at Seattle University and author of "The Search for the Green River Killer."

Welcome, Mr. Guillen.

TOMAS GUILLEN, CO-AUTHOR, "SEARCH FOR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER": Hello.

NEVILLE: Now, some people were surprised when they saw the photos of the men in custody. Does this father and stepson -- we know he's not legally stepson, but they have that relationship -- does this duo fit the profile of a sniper?

GUILLEN: Well, they don't completely. And I think a lot of people have been wondering about motive and so forth. Now that you see who they have arrested, basically, you can understand why the motive has not been clear. They appear to be maybe common thugs, basically.

They did identify with some terrorist movement, but they were asking for money, and they were shooting people in Alabama. They seem to be wanderers, vagabonds. And I think they were very disorganized. And you can see it in the communiques. And that's why the motive was not clear. And that's why it was unclear who they were or whether they were spree killers or serial killers.

NEVILLE: Now, there has been mention of an anti-American bias and a remote possibility of sympathy towards the September 11 terrorists. So, I ask you, given the evidence at hand, what do you think the motive could have been?

GUILLEN: Well, you know, I'm not sure. Like I said, it's very confusing, because they did identify with that political area. But, in fact, it wasn't that strong.

And their communiques indicated that they were all over the place in terms of what their philosophy was. So, we'll have to wait for the court trial to see if there is something a little stronger that points to a political agenda. Right now, you have a person who identified partly with Muslims. You have a person who was wandering around, living on the streets, or just moving around the country.

I get the feeling that they were just regular thugs that didn't care about people and ended up shooting them for a variety of reasons.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about the dynamics involved here. You have a father figure and a so-called stepson figure here. How would this work in terms of this team, the dynamics here involved? Would there be one who is more dominant?

GUILLEN: There usually is one that's more dominant. And it's odd to find, I think, serial killers, or even sniper killers -- whatever they want to call them now -- that work in tandem. The dynamics here might have been something completely different than the obvious serial killers.

You have an older person, a dad, a stepson, if that's the stepson. And they just got along. They thought the same. And together, they created a danger. I think you have seen that in previous cases. Partly, you might have seen that in "In Cold Blood." You find a combination of personalities that leads to a lot of trouble. And I don't really think they were really in tandem like Bianchi and some of the other serial cases. But I think they worked together.

NEVILLE: But, sir, does it surprise you, though, that you have an older man and a 17-year-old person who looks up to this guy? GUILLEN: It does surprise me. But, also, what surprises me is that the individual who did the shooting in Alabama was a younger individual. So you wonder what's going on here, who is influencing whom.

NEVILLE: Listen, Mr. Guillen, if you could stand by for me right now, I'm going to toss it back to Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County.

Wolf, I understand you have some new info for us.

BLITZER: We do have some new information. Our Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, is developing some new information on this 17- year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo.

We're going to have that right after this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County.

We're continuing our coverage of what's going on right now.

And CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena has found some new information about the 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo.

Kelli, what have you discovered?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources tell us, Wolf, that, back in December, December 19, in Bellingham, Washington, John Lee Malvo was taken into INS custody when his mother apparently was involved in a situation in which she was taken into custody for some time.

It is not clear what that situation was or if she was ultimately charged. But because she was involved in some sort of dispute, her son, who was a minor and who was here without legal documentation, was turned over to INS custody. He was released. It's not clear if he was released on his own recognizance. And he was supposed to return for a hearing on November 20, an immigration hearing on November 20.

It's a date he'll probably not make, Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelli, I want to just interrupt you for a moment. Stand by for one minute, because, as you're developing information on the 17-year-old suspect, our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, is developing some new information on the 41-year-old suspect, John Allen Muhammad.

Barbara, tell us precisely what you've discovered.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we have just learned from defense officials here at the Pentagon some new details about John Muhammad's service record with the U.S. military, with the U.S. Army. And what we have learned is that, while he served in the Army as a mechanic, as an enlisted sergeant, he also earned what we are told is the M-16 marksmanship expert badge. Now, in the Army, this is the highest level of expertise with the M-16, the expert badge. Below that, it is rated as expert marksman or sharpshooter. But this is the highest-level expert badge in M-16 marksmanship.

What we are told by officials: that this means, once a year when he was qualifying with his M-16 weapon, he successfully hit 36 of 40 targets at a range of about 50 to 300 meters. This is the standard test for M-16 marksmanship. And he clearly excelled at that.

Some of the other details now that we have learned about his military record: He was a sergeant. And his specialties were in combat engineer, as a mechanic, as a water truck driver, that sort of thing, nothing to do with particularly the Army Rangers or special forces, the very elite units that also are at Fort Lewis, Washington, which was his final posting in the U.S. Army. But we are now just learning he clearly was an expert marksman with the M-16 rifle -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Barbara Starr, stand by. I want to get some further elaboration on this very important point.

And for that, we turn to CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps.

But you know something about what this means, Kelly, to be an M- 16 marksmanship expert and to receive a badge. What precisely does that mean?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, soldiers and Marines, as part of their promotion in the lower enlisted ranks, actually, that counts towards their promotion or promotability. So everyone is motivated to shoot as well as they can, every Marine rifleman and every soldier rifleman.

Still, at the higher end, if he demonstrated that kind of skill, it doesn't go to the exceptional level of skill, say, of a sniper, because that's a whole other school, a whole other professional school. That's quite a long school, as a matter of fact. But it does show a proficiency in handling, an understanding of the weapon, of the ballistics, etcetera.

Now, remember that, in the service, it is not routine to qualify or to handle your weapon in an extraordinary amount. People qualify once a year. There's the concept, of course, that people always have those weapons around. They don't. So, this clearly showed a personal interest as well that went beyond his job.

BLITZER: Tell our viewers who are not familiar with these weapons the difference between the M-16, which, of course, is standard in the U.S. military, and the Bushmaster, a civilian long-range rifle that was apparently discovered in the Caprice, the Chevy Caprice that was impounded, taken into custody today. MCCANN: Well, the service rifle, of course, has an automatic fire feature on some models. And some have a three-round burst model, which are illegal for civilians to possess unless they have a class- three firearms license, which means that you have to have that paperwork colocated with you and the gun at all times. It's quite expensive.

The Bushmaster is a civilian clone of the Colt family of weapons. If you looked at them from a distance, most people would be unlikely to tell the difference: same capabilities, same rounds, same function, Wolf, as a Colt weapon.

BLITZER: All right, Kelly McCann, thanks very much.

Barbara Starr, I want to thank you as well.

Kelli Arena, before I let you go, I interrupted you. You were giving us new some information about the 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo, that the INS had apparently had him in some sort of custody a year ago? Fill us in on the various details of that. It's a fascinating aspect of this story.

ARENA: Well, there was some incident involving his mother -- who we are not naming, because she is not in any way connected to this case at all. But there was some incident involving his mother.

Because he is a minor, he was not here legally, he was taken into INS custody on December 19. He was later released. We're not sure if he was detained for any substantial period of time, but was released -- also, not clear if he was released on his own recognizance. There's some dispute over that. But he was supposed to return for an INS hearing on November 20 to deal with the issue of his being here undocumented -- obviously, November 20 yet to come.

So that is just a little bit of information as we're trying -- we're just -- basically, what this is all gearing toward is trying to find out what his relationship was with John Allen Muhammad and how that got from him being with his mother to him being with Mr. Muhammad. So we're just trying to figure that out. And in the course of that reporting work, we came upon this information.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, doing extensive reporting on all aspects of this story. Thanks very much. We'll be getting to you as well.

For now, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland. Back to Arthel and TALKBACK LIVE.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf.

Listen, I want to bring Tomas Guillen back into this conversation. Mr. Guillen, you just heard Barbara Starr report that while in the military, Mr. Muhammad, John Muhammad earned an M-16 marksmanship expert badge. Asking you now, this information does, this help you develop a better profile of the snipers?

GUILLEN: Well, not really. I mean, he had a fascination with weapons and he wanted to use them. I think mostly what you look at is just his behavior and how he lived life. And basically, you know these two individuals do not fit the typical profile of a serial killer or snipers. I think there were a lot of dysfunctionalism involved in their family.

This morning, I had a conversation with a business partner of the adult gentleman they have taken into custody. And they were business partners. He was surprised that this person would show violence. He was not surprised that the youth was showing violence. But he knew them both. They hung out together a lot.

And so I don't think they fit the typical profile, especially, like you mentioned, a young person with an adult person. I think they were doing other things, bumming around and they came together and their personalities worked in a negative way.

NEVILLE: Interesting. Listen, Mr. Guillen, stand by for me. I have to take a break right now if you would stay there with me.

And when we come back, we're going to bring in a military expert, a lieutenant colonel retired from the U.S. Army. A special edition of TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the sniper attacks. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland.

I want to update you now on what's going on in Baltimore, Maryland. The 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo, is being arraigned at this hour right now, we're told, in a closed hearing. We're told also that he's being arraigned as a material witness in the sniper case.

We don't have more specifics, but once again, being arraigned this hour in Baltimore by federal authorities. We'll have much more on this as we get more information. But for now, back to Arthel and TALKBACK LIVE -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf.

Now, if and when the case advances, what specific charges would the two suspects currently in custody face? Keep in mind, as you just heard, one of them is only 17 years old. Former New York state prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Pamela Hayes joins us from New York for more on the legal perspectives on this case. Hello, Ms. Hayes.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: How are you doing?

NEVILLE: Good, good. Listen, let's talk about possible charges separately in this case. I want to start with the 17-year-old. I mean, keeping in mind, of course, that he is 17 and, in fact, that he is a citizen of Jamaica.

HAYES: OK, Arthel. The first thing you have to realize is he's 17 years old and that means he's a juvenile. There are certain laws that protect individuals who are under the age of majority and they're treated in a certain fashion. So what we have to find out is whether the government is going to charge him as a juvenile or whether he's going to be charged as an adult.

Right now, it seems that he's being charged as a material witness, which means his testimony is essential. And because it's so essential, the court looks at it in a way that you must guarantee that he is there to help and to cooperate. And that means that you have to set some sort of bail or some sort of remand.

What further complicates this entire matter is that he is a citizen of another state. And down the line, you'll be looking at immigration charges, deportation charges and various things like that, if, in fact, he is convicted of anything. But we don't know whether he's an active participant in these homicides. If he is, he could be charged with murders.

There is various weapons charges he could be charged with. You have the state system. Then you have to go to the federal system. If he is going to be charged with some homicides, the question then becomes, Maryland, which is under a moratorium in terms of death penalty, how do they proceed?

Virginia is going death penalty all the way. And D.C. doesn't have a death penalty statute. So we really have to wait and see what the prosecutors are going to do. But clearly, a material witness, weapons charges and homicides are all in the mix.

NEVILLE: Now, it was because the crimes took place in various states, what does this mean legally in terms of attorneys?

HAYES: What it means is every state has a bite at the defendant. Maryland has to protect its citizens. The District of Columbia has to protect its citizens, as well as the commonwealth of Virginia. Everybody has a bite at the apple, which means they have to set up a strategy in terms of who is going to try these individuals first.

Is it going to be Maryland, where it started out, where the people were caught, where they are now in court? Or is it going to be in Virginia maybe, who doesn't have a death penalty issue, if that's the type of thing they're going to pursue. I suspect that since they are in Baltimore -- I guess they're in the district court in Baltimore County -- that's the federal court -- that they're going to be starting this whole process.

But the key is to find out what the adult is going to be charged with. You know, they may even want to use the 17-year-old as a cooperative witness and they'd get more leverage out of that rather than, you know, pursuing him as a defendant.

NEVILLE: Pam Hayes, that's exactly where I wanted to go with you next, regarding the interrogation. And I want you to take us behind the scenes in that process. But right now I have to take a break if you could stand by for me. Tomas Guillen, stay there with me as well. When we get back, we're going to talk to a military expert. As you heard earlier, Muhammad earned a badge for expert in marksmanship using an M-16. What does this all mean in this case? TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: One of the suspects is a Gulf War veteran.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you link that with the way he possibly feels about the attacks on America and sympathizing with them, it could -- could paint a different picture than people have suspected.

NEVILLE: What type of military training did John Allen Muhammad have and how does that affect the case? We'll try to answer some of those questions when we return. That, and more, when TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.

I'm going to continue my conversation now with Pam Hayes. She's in New York. She is indeed a former New York State prosecutor, as well as criminal defense attorney. Also standing by with us is Tomas Guillen, a professor at the Seattle University.

And now, Ms. Hayes, back to you now. Before we took a break, you started to give us a little bit of insight in terms of the interrogation process. You have a 17-year-old in custody. And help us understand what police would do in order to maybe coerce any sort of cooperation out of Mr. Malvo.

HAYES: Well, we don't want them to coerce, because that brings on other issues. But what we do want to do is find out what the rules are in the jurisdiction of Maryland. Do they require a parent to be present with a child before he or she is interrogated? And that's a factor or variable that I don't have at my hands right now.

I do know that in New York state if you are 15 years old, you -- or under, you must have your parent there with you or a guardian. In this instance, we have a problem because the individual who is putting himself in that paternal seat is the co-defendant, the person who, if I was arguing, led this child to this course of conduct that he cannot be rectified from and it's problematic.

But you've got to find out, does he need a lawyer, has he requested a lawyer? If he has requested a lawyer, there are no questions. You know it stops and the lawyer comes and then they make a decision on what to do. In this instance, you need some type of legal representation for this person who is 17 years old so they could proceed.

Maybe he wants to talk. Maybe he wants to cooperate. Maybe this guy had him under a Svengali influence. We don't know the factors.

But all of those go into consideration when you're interrogating a juvenile. An adult is different. They have their regular Miranda rights. They can decide whether they want to talk or not. If they request a lawyer, it's over until the lawyer comes and that's where we go.

NEVILLE: Let me get Mr. Guillen in this conversation. I asked you this earlier, sir, but since Ms. Hayes has just brought it up again, Ms. Hayes, I think she intimated that perhaps the younger person in this duo might have been influenced by the adult. What's your take on that?

GUILLEN: Well, it's very possible. I think they were working in tandem and they were probably influencing each other. But the legal system will prove that out.

I basically think these two individuals were acting very, very different from any other cases that I've seen. You seem to see people being flippant. For instance, an example is the final communique. Basically, there's an announcement that they're looking for two individuals, they put out the licenses. In between that time and the arrest there is a call reportedly from the sniper telling the chief to read a communique, saying, you know, that the duck is in the noose.

NEVILLE: The duck is in the noose.

GUILLEN: And that's very odd behavior, because normally people run, whether they are son of Sam, whether it's a sniper, they run. And in this case, very flippant behavior, very unusual behavior, and that raises more questions than answers in this whole thing of personality and who they were and who was influencing whom.

HAYES: You know, I was just going to say that phrase "the duck is in the noose," I've never heard it. You know we're interpreting it, as professionals say, that means that you've got the person, you've got your prey. But I don't know if that's what that means.

So you know this jargon that went back between Chief Moose and this individual, whoever was doing the talking, is very questionable. And I suspect we're going to need some sort of interpreter to tell us what they were meaning. People have codes that they talk in. They have various street language, slang language, and we need to know what they were talking about.

NEVILLE: OK. Ms. Hayes, two things. One, do you think it is likely that Malvo will be charged as an adult? And, secondly, what about charges against Muhammad? What might they be?

HAYES: Well, clearly, if they are alleging that he is the sniper, he's going to be charged with murder. You know, there may be first degree murder, second degree murder, death penalty murder. He's going to be charged with state and federal weapons charges. He could also be charged with extortion.

I think there was information that came out talking about he was asking for $10 million. There was something with a bank account. There is some sort of federal wire fraud or charges or things like that that they could charge him with. And what we have to do is just go to the prosecutors and ask.

But clearly, you have an extortion count. You have several murder counts. You have capital murder counts. There are just any number of things that you want to charge this person with.

And, you know, you want to tighten it, you know, so that this young person who is being charged with a material witness, you want to use that person, because he's right there. He knows everything. And it will help you put the case together.

NEVILLE: Will it be easy to get information from him?

HAYES: Well, we don't know. If he's talking, it will be the greatest thing that's ever happened for them. But you just don't know. You just have to wait and see.

NEVILLE: And that is the final word on this segment. Pam Hayes and Tomas Guillen, thank you very much for giving us your insights.

And coming up, we know one of the two suspects was once in the U.S. military. And next we'll talk to a retired lieutenant colonel about that. We're back in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland. I want to update you on what's going on right now.

We're told that John Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old suspect, is being arraigned in federal court in Baltimore, Maryland at this moment. Arraigned as a material witness in connection with the sniper investigation. We're awaiting the arraignment of John Allen Muhammad, the 41-year-old suspect. We expect that to happen also in Baltimore shortly.

He is being arraigned in connection with firearms violations in Washington state. We have learned during the course of today that in the automobile, the Chevy Caprice, that they were found in, in the middle of the night, at 3:00 AM in Frederick, Maryland, they did find a Bushmaster rifle capable of firing those .223 caliber bullets.

One additional note, we have been told that -- by our Pentagon Correspondent, Barbara Starr -- that Muhammad did receive an M-16 expert marksmanship badge while he served in the U.S. Army at Fort Lewis, Washington. Much more information coming up as we develop it.

We're standing by for a news conference with the Montgomery County police chief in about two hours, 6:00 PM Eastern. We'll have that live here on CNN as well. For now, back to Arthel in Atlanta -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: All right, Wolf. Thank you very much. Now one of the suspects, John Allen Muhammad, is a 41-year-old Gulf War veteran. We -- will that play into this case? Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman joins us from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He has done much research on the psychological cost of war. Thanks so much for joining us.

LT. COL. DAVE GROSSMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Glad to be here.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about the weapon found in the car: a semiautomatic civilian version of a military M-16. Also, a short while ago, Barbara Starr reported that while in the military John Muhammad earned an M-16 expert marksmanship badge. Now, typically, who uses this kind of weapon, how could Muhammad get a hold of one, and what does that mean to this case?

GROSSMAN: Every young soldier who goes through basic training in the military, in most of the branches of the military, gets an opportunity to qualify with an M-16 rifle. And the numbers vary greatly, but roughly 20 percent of every individual, the millions and millions of individuals who pass through the armed forces, have qualified expert with the basic assigned weapon.

The M-16 is a basic assigned weapon. In this case, he's found a civilian weapon that's similar to that M-16. The shots this guy was making -- I'm, as you said, author of the book "On Killing" and adviser The American Sniper Association, technical adviser. The shots this guy was making weren't hard. Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone could put a bullet in a man's head and be a first-time kill. We were dropping buffalo from 200 yards with shots to the head 200 years ago.

The new ingredient is not the capacity to do this. The new ingredient is really the mental mindset of a human being who desires to do something unlike anything that's ever been done before in history.

NEVILLE: Could Muhammad have taught Malvo to use the M-16?

GROSSMAN: It's entirely possible. I could teach you in an hour to be able to make the kind of shots that these guys were making. It is not hard and it's entirely possible he could have taught him.

Like I said, the other part of the equation is the mental part. In the sniper world they talk about one-shot snipers, people who were able to kill one person but never can do it again. No shot snipers who look down the scope and can't kill a human being. The ability to watch a human being's head explode and do it again and again, that takes a degree of desensitization to human death and suffering.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Colonel Grossman, I want you to continue that thought after the break. I do have to take a break at this point, but when we come back I would like you to continue your thought. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. Continuing our conversation now with Colonel Grossman. Before the break, sir, you were telling us about the mental state of someone who could watch someone's head explode.

GROSSMAN: Over the centuries, literally over the centuries, the United States armed forces have trained millions of boys to be capable of doing what this guy did. And yet, statistically speaking, the returning veteran is less likely to commit violent crimes than a non- veteran of the same age and the same sex.

There is a new ingredient in the equation. We don't know what it is, but in Columbine, Jonesboro, Paduca, the media violence, the violent video games -- and once we look, we may find violent video games are a piece of the equation here.

NEVILLE: Colonel Grossman, thank you very much.

CNN's special in-depth coverage on this fast-moving story will continue throughout the day. That's it for us today. Thanks for watching.

I'm Arthel Neville. I'll see you again tomorrow.

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Aired October 24, 2002 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Our coverage of the fast-breaking developments in the sniper investigation continues with a special hour of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer. I'll be anchoring the show from here in Montgomery County, Maryland, the hub of the sniper investigation. Thanks very much for joining us.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: And I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be anchoring from CNN world headquarters here in Atlanta.

We're going to try to answer the questions everyone wants answered. I'll ask experts about the suspects and a possible motive in the crime.

But right now back, let's go back to Montgomery County and Wolf Blitzer for the very latest in this case -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks very much,Arthel.

Twenty-two days after a deadly string of sniper shootings began in the Washington, D.C. area, there is a bit of hope and relief. Police arrested two men overnight, 41-year-old John Allen Muhammad and 17-year-old John Lee Malvo. Since that time, new developments have been streaming in.

Let's get right to all the late-breaking developments. Joining me here in Montgomery County: CNN's Kathleen Koch.

You've been following it very closely. Give our viewers who may just be tuning in the absolute latest. What's going on?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right.

Well, Wolf, as we know, very early this morning, around 3:19, SWAT teams were able to swoop in on this blue Chevrolet Caprice that had been spotted by a very alert motorist who apparently was in the area. This was near Frederick, Maryland, about 50 miles northwest of Washington, D.C. They found inside the vehicle these two men sleeping. Again, police aren't calling them suspects, but that's who we believe are in the sniper case.

Now, at this point, after the men were apprehended, they were questioned here in Montgomery County. And now they are being taken to face a federal court appearance in Baltimore. We don't know if that has taken place yet, but it is due to take place at some point this afternoon.

What did they find in the car? Law enforcement sources tell CNN that they did find a Bushmaster .223. Now, that type of rifle is capable of firing the .223 rounds that have been used, as far as we know, in all 13 of the shootings. Apparently, some black bags were also found in the car.

Now, the car, as we know, had New Jersey plates. And there was a search that was conducted before this lookout was put out to reporters last night of the apartment in New Jersey. That's according to New Jersey Police Captain Joe Richardson. They haven't yet told us what they have found in this apartment. This is an apartment to which these plates, this vehicle was registered to.

Also, of course, we all witnessed the lengthy search of this home, the backyard of this home in Tacoma, Washington. This is apparently where we were told that at least John Allen Muhammad had lived for some period of time, FBI, ATF involved in a very lengthy search there yesterday. We saw them remove a tree trunk. We are being told that they were examining that for possible bullet fragments.

Also, you see they had that tape spread out across the backyard, where they were looking for not only bullet fragments, but shell casings that might connect to the sniper shootings here in the Washington, D.C. area.

So, right now, at this point, Wolf, we're waiting for a briefing. We had been promised a briefing earlier today at noon. Then it got pushed to 1:00, 2:00. Now we are hearing 6:00. p.m. So we are hoping at that point perhaps to hear about any ballistics match that might have been made with this weapon that was found in the vehicle.

BLITZER: Of course,, we'll have live coverage right here behind me and you from Montgomery County.

KOCH: I'll be here.

BLITZER: Kathleen Koch, thanks for that.

The suspects are expected in federal court in Baltimore, Maryland, this hour.

CNN affiliate WJZ reporter Suzanne Collins is outside the courthouse.

Suzanne, from what you can see and hear and what you have heard, what is happening?

SUZANNE COLLINS, WJZ REPORTER: Well, first we saw a great presence of police officers, the Baltimore City SWAT team arrived. They surrounded the courthouse. We had bicycle officers. We had a helicopter overhead. And that is very unusual, because they don't normally have that kind of security. And that indicated that one or both of the suspects were to be arriving here.

Since then, we did notice one federal car -- and we have some video of that that we can show you -- pulling into the parking garage beneath the federal courthouse building. And I am to learn from a law enforcement source that that is the 17-year-old who arrived first. At this point, we are still waiting for John Muhammad to arrive. And we understand that is to happen perhaps within the next half-hour, 45 minutes.

There are no federal charges against the 17-year-old. So what we will probably see happen is, we will see John Muhammad have an arraignment before a federal magistrate here in the court after he is processed. And at that time, we're not sure right now whether they will be allowing us all into the court, because they say they have major security concerns and they haven't quite worked out those details. But that is what we are anticipating this afternoon.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Suzanne Collins, of our affiliate WJZ. She's on the scene for us in Baltimore. We'll be touching base with you, of course, periodically.

A big break in the sniper case came from a link to a shooting in Alabama. A woman was killed and another wounded outside a liquor store on September 21.

CNN's Brian Cabell is joining us now from Montgomery, Alabama. He's picking up that part of the story -- Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for those of us who were wondering for the last day or so what the connection was between Montgomery County, Maryland, and Montgomery, Alabama, we found out earlier this morning.

What we found out was, they have found fingerprints here of John Malvo connected to a crime that was committed here some five weeks ago. About five weeks ago, September 21, at this ABC beverage store in Montgomery, Alabama, two women were coming out of the store. They're employees. They were closing up the shop for the night when they were approached by a man from the back. He shot both of them in the back. He killed one of them.

He fled. A police officer ran after him, tried to catch him, did not catch him. He disappeared into the night. And now, as I say, some five weeks later, they have determined that in fact John Malvo, this 17-year-old sniper suspect, his fingerprints were found at the scene here. Apparently all this started a few days ago when someone called in anonymously saying that there might be a connection with a crime here in Montgomery, Alabama.

Sure enough, they checked into it. They have been working on it for the last three or four days. And today, they determined definitely that Malvo's fingerprints were at the scene here on the 21st -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian, but they have also said that the bullets used in Montgomery, Alabama, were not of that .223 caliber, similar to the bullets that were used here in the Washington area in this killing spree that's been going on. What do authorities say about that?

CABELL: All they're saying is that they were not .223. And they say it actually was handgun, in all likelihood. The officer who chased him said he did not have a rifle. It was not a long gun. It was a handgun. He won't give us the caliber, but he says definitely it was not a .223 -- so a different bullet, a different gun. But the fingerprints do seem to be a match.

BLITZER: And there is some sort of training gun range or training camp that's nearby there that's caused some early excitement that seems to have gone away. Fill our viewers in. Clarify that part of the story.

CABELL: Well, this training camp known as Ground Zero USA is about probably 50 miles to the northwest of here, thought to be a hot lead as of yesterday, a training camp where they said maybe had paramilitary ties, even Islamic ties, a lot of rumors circulating about, Wolf.

Also, there was the report that we got, fairly definitive, that the FBI had actually searched that area, that camp, within the last day or so. It turns out, we learned this morning, that was a false rumor. That was not a good report. The FBI never did search that area. In fact, the FBI has told us they have no interest in that area.

The camp director there, the manager, had told us last night repeatedly he knew nothing about an FBI search, about any connections possibly with the snipers. It turns out he was absolutely correct. The reports were wrong.

BLITZER: And getting back, Brian, to that killing on September 21 at that liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama, was it deemed to have been a robbery or a robbery attempt or simply a homicide?

CABELL: Well, the police chief is treating it as a robbery, because, apparently, the man who shot the two women was seen rifling through at least one of their purses. Apparently, nothing was taken. He apparently said almost nothing to them. He apparently shot them in their back without even accosting them, simply shot them.

So it's a rather peculiar crime, but they are treating it as a robbery because he was seen going through their purses. So it appeared he was trying to steal something, although apparently he was foiled because an officer started chasing him.

BLITZER: One woman was killed. Another one has survived. But tragedy, of course, occurred.

Brian Cabell, for us in Montgomery, Alabama, thanks for that report.

Coming up, we'll go live to Tacoma, Washington, where authorities searched the yard of a home yesterday. CNN's James Hattori is standing by there. He is ready to talk to us.

And, in Atlanta, Arthel, tell us what you have.

NEVILLE: Wolf, thanks a lot.

Right now, we have to take a break.

But when we come back, we're going to talk to a man who has studied serial killers for 20 years. Tomas Guillen will give us his take on the men in custody. Does this arrest make any sense? And what could the motive be in the sniper spree?

Keep it right here. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE (voice-over): A series of crosscountry clues lead police to the men in custody.

JOHN TIMONEY, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: You talk about making an argument for ballistics-identification testing, this will be it.

NEVILLE: What exactly is the evidence and where will it take us from here?

We'll talk to some experts when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back, everyone. This is a special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer on the scene in Montgomery, Maryland.

The investigation into this sniper attack has taken authorities all the way to Tacoma, Washington, where the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms have dispatched agents. They searched the backyard of a duplex yesterday looking for evidence.

CNN's James Hattori is joining us now from Tacoma with the Washington state connection -- James.

JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as you say, they did search the backyard of this home behind me, where John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo were living for a time earlier this year. They spent the whole day looking, collected a lot of evidence, including a tree stump, as we've all heard, which may have been used for target practice. We have been told they were looking for bullet fragments or possibly shell casings in the backyard.

And, obviously, this is material that they're going to be collecting, examining as they try to begin to build a case against these two suspects. Now, at the same time, federal agents also are were up in Bellingham, Washington, two, three hours north of here, near the Canadian border, where they seized some documents from Bellingham High School, where Mr. Malvo was a student for a time.

Now, we've also obtained some information about Mr. Muhammad's second marriage here in Tacoma and a restraining order that was filed by his wife. Apparently, it was a very messy situation that ended in divorce and accusations back and forth of child abductions. His wife at one point was hospitalized because of all the stress she had undergone. She had maintained in court filings that she feared for her life from Mr. Williams. His name was Williams at that time, before he changed it to Muhammad.

And they had three kids. At that period, they were aged 8, 10 and 6, I believe. A divorce was finally granted in October and September. But, in the filings, she is quoted as saying: "I'm afraid of John. He was a demolitions expert." She also told authorities that John came over at one point and "was not going to let me raise my children."

Afterwards, the temporary restraining order was filed. Her name is Mildred, by the way. She is the second ex-wife. At one point, the children were taken out of Muhammad's custody in Whatcom County, which is also in Bellingham, taken in custody of child protective services and then returned eventually to Mildred Williams.

The last legal filing was in September of 2001, about one year ago. Mr. Muhammad claims that his ex-wife improperly took the children, vanished and apparently caused some consternation. So this was a very messy situation between Mr. Williams and his second wife -- Wolf.

BLITZER: James Hattori, he's on the scene for us in Washington state. Thanks very much, James. We'll be checking back with you.

And we just want to reiterates what our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena reporting: Earlier, we were reporting what authorities were telling us, that there was this stepson-stepfather relationship between these two individuals, John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. We're told that, legally speaking at least, he was not, John Malvo was not the stepson of John Muhammad.

We'll be continuing to monitor that situation. But, for now, let's go back to Arthel at the CNN Center in Atlanta -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf, I'll take it from here.

Now, of course, we now know a little bit more about the suspects in this case. So do they fit the profile of someone who could commit these crimes?

Joining us from Seattle is Tomas Guillen, an associate professor at Seattle University and author of "The Search for the Green River Killer."

Welcome, Mr. Guillen.

TOMAS GUILLEN, CO-AUTHOR, "SEARCH FOR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER": Hello.

NEVILLE: Now, some people were surprised when they saw the photos of the men in custody. Does this father and stepson -- we know he's not legally stepson, but they have that relationship -- does this duo fit the profile of a sniper?

GUILLEN: Well, they don't completely. And I think a lot of people have been wondering about motive and so forth. Now that you see who they have arrested, basically, you can understand why the motive has not been clear. They appear to be maybe common thugs, basically.

They did identify with some terrorist movement, but they were asking for money, and they were shooting people in Alabama. They seem to be wanderers, vagabonds. And I think they were very disorganized. And you can see it in the communiques. And that's why the motive was not clear. And that's why it was unclear who they were or whether they were spree killers or serial killers.

NEVILLE: Now, there has been mention of an anti-American bias and a remote possibility of sympathy towards the September 11 terrorists. So, I ask you, given the evidence at hand, what do you think the motive could have been?

GUILLEN: Well, you know, I'm not sure. Like I said, it's very confusing, because they did identify with that political area. But, in fact, it wasn't that strong.

And their communiques indicated that they were all over the place in terms of what their philosophy was. So, we'll have to wait for the court trial to see if there is something a little stronger that points to a political agenda. Right now, you have a person who identified partly with Muslims. You have a person who was wandering around, living on the streets, or just moving around the country.

I get the feeling that they were just regular thugs that didn't care about people and ended up shooting them for a variety of reasons.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about the dynamics involved here. You have a father figure and a so-called stepson figure here. How would this work in terms of this team, the dynamics here involved? Would there be one who is more dominant?

GUILLEN: There usually is one that's more dominant. And it's odd to find, I think, serial killers, or even sniper killers -- whatever they want to call them now -- that work in tandem. The dynamics here might have been something completely different than the obvious serial killers.

You have an older person, a dad, a stepson, if that's the stepson. And they just got along. They thought the same. And together, they created a danger. I think you have seen that in previous cases. Partly, you might have seen that in "In Cold Blood." You find a combination of personalities that leads to a lot of trouble. And I don't really think they were really in tandem like Bianchi and some of the other serial cases. But I think they worked together.

NEVILLE: But, sir, does it surprise you, though, that you have an older man and a 17-year-old person who looks up to this guy? GUILLEN: It does surprise me. But, also, what surprises me is that the individual who did the shooting in Alabama was a younger individual. So you wonder what's going on here, who is influencing whom.

NEVILLE: Listen, Mr. Guillen, if you could stand by for me right now, I'm going to toss it back to Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County.

Wolf, I understand you have some new info for us.

BLITZER: We do have some new information. Our Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, is developing some new information on this 17- year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo.

We're going to have that right after this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County.

We're continuing our coverage of what's going on right now.

And CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena has found some new information about the 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo.

Kelli, what have you discovered?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources tell us, Wolf, that, back in December, December 19, in Bellingham, Washington, John Lee Malvo was taken into INS custody when his mother apparently was involved in a situation in which she was taken into custody for some time.

It is not clear what that situation was or if she was ultimately charged. But because she was involved in some sort of dispute, her son, who was a minor and who was here without legal documentation, was turned over to INS custody. He was released. It's not clear if he was released on his own recognizance. And he was supposed to return for a hearing on November 20, an immigration hearing on November 20.

It's a date he'll probably not make, Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelli, I want to just interrupt you for a moment. Stand by for one minute, because, as you're developing information on the 17-year-old suspect, our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, is developing some new information on the 41-year-old suspect, John Allen Muhammad.

Barbara, tell us precisely what you've discovered.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we have just learned from defense officials here at the Pentagon some new details about John Muhammad's service record with the U.S. military, with the U.S. Army. And what we have learned is that, while he served in the Army as a mechanic, as an enlisted sergeant, he also earned what we are told is the M-16 marksmanship expert badge. Now, in the Army, this is the highest level of expertise with the M-16, the expert badge. Below that, it is rated as expert marksman or sharpshooter. But this is the highest-level expert badge in M-16 marksmanship.

What we are told by officials: that this means, once a year when he was qualifying with his M-16 weapon, he successfully hit 36 of 40 targets at a range of about 50 to 300 meters. This is the standard test for M-16 marksmanship. And he clearly excelled at that.

Some of the other details now that we have learned about his military record: He was a sergeant. And his specialties were in combat engineer, as a mechanic, as a water truck driver, that sort of thing, nothing to do with particularly the Army Rangers or special forces, the very elite units that also are at Fort Lewis, Washington, which was his final posting in the U.S. Army. But we are now just learning he clearly was an expert marksman with the M-16 rifle -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Barbara Starr, stand by. I want to get some further elaboration on this very important point.

And for that, we turn to CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps.

But you know something about what this means, Kelly, to be an M- 16 marksmanship expert and to receive a badge. What precisely does that mean?

J. KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, soldiers and Marines, as part of their promotion in the lower enlisted ranks, actually, that counts towards their promotion or promotability. So everyone is motivated to shoot as well as they can, every Marine rifleman and every soldier rifleman.

Still, at the higher end, if he demonstrated that kind of skill, it doesn't go to the exceptional level of skill, say, of a sniper, because that's a whole other school, a whole other professional school. That's quite a long school, as a matter of fact. But it does show a proficiency in handling, an understanding of the weapon, of the ballistics, etcetera.

Now, remember that, in the service, it is not routine to qualify or to handle your weapon in an extraordinary amount. People qualify once a year. There's the concept, of course, that people always have those weapons around. They don't. So, this clearly showed a personal interest as well that went beyond his job.

BLITZER: Tell our viewers who are not familiar with these weapons the difference between the M-16, which, of course, is standard in the U.S. military, and the Bushmaster, a civilian long-range rifle that was apparently discovered in the Caprice, the Chevy Caprice that was impounded, taken into custody today. MCCANN: Well, the service rifle, of course, has an automatic fire feature on some models. And some have a three-round burst model, which are illegal for civilians to possess unless they have a class- three firearms license, which means that you have to have that paperwork colocated with you and the gun at all times. It's quite expensive.

The Bushmaster is a civilian clone of the Colt family of weapons. If you looked at them from a distance, most people would be unlikely to tell the difference: same capabilities, same rounds, same function, Wolf, as a Colt weapon.

BLITZER: All right, Kelly McCann, thanks very much.

Barbara Starr, I want to thank you as well.

Kelli Arena, before I let you go, I interrupted you. You were giving us new some information about the 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo, that the INS had apparently had him in some sort of custody a year ago? Fill us in on the various details of that. It's a fascinating aspect of this story.

ARENA: Well, there was some incident involving his mother -- who we are not naming, because she is not in any way connected to this case at all. But there was some incident involving his mother.

Because he is a minor, he was not here legally, he was taken into INS custody on December 19. He was later released. We're not sure if he was detained for any substantial period of time, but was released -- also, not clear if he was released on his own recognizance. There's some dispute over that. But he was supposed to return for an INS hearing on November 20 to deal with the issue of his being here undocumented -- obviously, November 20 yet to come.

So that is just a little bit of information as we're trying -- we're just -- basically, what this is all gearing toward is trying to find out what his relationship was with John Allen Muhammad and how that got from him being with his mother to him being with Mr. Muhammad. So we're just trying to figure that out. And in the course of that reporting work, we came upon this information.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, doing extensive reporting on all aspects of this story. Thanks very much. We'll be getting to you as well.

For now, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland. Back to Arthel and TALKBACK LIVE.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf.

Listen, I want to bring Tomas Guillen back into this conversation. Mr. Guillen, you just heard Barbara Starr report that while in the military, Mr. Muhammad, John Muhammad earned an M-16 marksmanship expert badge. Asking you now, this information does, this help you develop a better profile of the snipers?

GUILLEN: Well, not really. I mean, he had a fascination with weapons and he wanted to use them. I think mostly what you look at is just his behavior and how he lived life. And basically, you know these two individuals do not fit the typical profile of a serial killer or snipers. I think there were a lot of dysfunctionalism involved in their family.

This morning, I had a conversation with a business partner of the adult gentleman they have taken into custody. And they were business partners. He was surprised that this person would show violence. He was not surprised that the youth was showing violence. But he knew them both. They hung out together a lot.

And so I don't think they fit the typical profile, especially, like you mentioned, a young person with an adult person. I think they were doing other things, bumming around and they came together and their personalities worked in a negative way.

NEVILLE: Interesting. Listen, Mr. Guillen, stand by for me. I have to take a break right now if you would stay there with me.

And when we come back, we're going to bring in a military expert, a lieutenant colonel retired from the U.S. Army. A special edition of TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the sniper attacks. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland.

I want to update you now on what's going on in Baltimore, Maryland. The 17-year-old suspect, John Lee Malvo, is being arraigned at this hour right now, we're told, in a closed hearing. We're told also that he's being arraigned as a material witness in the sniper case.

We don't have more specifics, but once again, being arraigned this hour in Baltimore by federal authorities. We'll have much more on this as we get more information. But for now, back to Arthel and TALKBACK LIVE -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK, Wolf.

Now, if and when the case advances, what specific charges would the two suspects currently in custody face? Keep in mind, as you just heard, one of them is only 17 years old. Former New York state prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Pamela Hayes joins us from New York for more on the legal perspectives on this case. Hello, Ms. Hayes.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: How are you doing?

NEVILLE: Good, good. Listen, let's talk about possible charges separately in this case. I want to start with the 17-year-old. I mean, keeping in mind, of course, that he is 17 and, in fact, that he is a citizen of Jamaica.

HAYES: OK, Arthel. The first thing you have to realize is he's 17 years old and that means he's a juvenile. There are certain laws that protect individuals who are under the age of majority and they're treated in a certain fashion. So what we have to find out is whether the government is going to charge him as a juvenile or whether he's going to be charged as an adult.

Right now, it seems that he's being charged as a material witness, which means his testimony is essential. And because it's so essential, the court looks at it in a way that you must guarantee that he is there to help and to cooperate. And that means that you have to set some sort of bail or some sort of remand.

What further complicates this entire matter is that he is a citizen of another state. And down the line, you'll be looking at immigration charges, deportation charges and various things like that, if, in fact, he is convicted of anything. But we don't know whether he's an active participant in these homicides. If he is, he could be charged with murders.

There is various weapons charges he could be charged with. You have the state system. Then you have to go to the federal system. If he is going to be charged with some homicides, the question then becomes, Maryland, which is under a moratorium in terms of death penalty, how do they proceed?

Virginia is going death penalty all the way. And D.C. doesn't have a death penalty statute. So we really have to wait and see what the prosecutors are going to do. But clearly, a material witness, weapons charges and homicides are all in the mix.

NEVILLE: Now, it was because the crimes took place in various states, what does this mean legally in terms of attorneys?

HAYES: What it means is every state has a bite at the defendant. Maryland has to protect its citizens. The District of Columbia has to protect its citizens, as well as the commonwealth of Virginia. Everybody has a bite at the apple, which means they have to set up a strategy in terms of who is going to try these individuals first.

Is it going to be Maryland, where it started out, where the people were caught, where they are now in court? Or is it going to be in Virginia maybe, who doesn't have a death penalty issue, if that's the type of thing they're going to pursue. I suspect that since they are in Baltimore -- I guess they're in the district court in Baltimore County -- that's the federal court -- that they're going to be starting this whole process.

But the key is to find out what the adult is going to be charged with. You know, they may even want to use the 17-year-old as a cooperative witness and they'd get more leverage out of that rather than, you know, pursuing him as a defendant.

NEVILLE: Pam Hayes, that's exactly where I wanted to go with you next, regarding the interrogation. And I want you to take us behind the scenes in that process. But right now I have to take a break if you could stand by for me. Tomas Guillen, stay there with me as well. When we get back, we're going to talk to a military expert. As you heard earlier, Muhammad earned a badge for expert in marksmanship using an M-16. What does this all mean in this case? TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: One of the suspects is a Gulf War veteran.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you link that with the way he possibly feels about the attacks on America and sympathizing with them, it could -- could paint a different picture than people have suspected.

NEVILLE: What type of military training did John Allen Muhammad have and how does that affect the case? We'll try to answer some of those questions when we return. That, and more, when TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.

I'm going to continue my conversation now with Pam Hayes. She's in New York. She is indeed a former New York State prosecutor, as well as criminal defense attorney. Also standing by with us is Tomas Guillen, a professor at the Seattle University.

And now, Ms. Hayes, back to you now. Before we took a break, you started to give us a little bit of insight in terms of the interrogation process. You have a 17-year-old in custody. And help us understand what police would do in order to maybe coerce any sort of cooperation out of Mr. Malvo.

HAYES: Well, we don't want them to coerce, because that brings on other issues. But what we do want to do is find out what the rules are in the jurisdiction of Maryland. Do they require a parent to be present with a child before he or she is interrogated? And that's a factor or variable that I don't have at my hands right now.

I do know that in New York state if you are 15 years old, you -- or under, you must have your parent there with you or a guardian. In this instance, we have a problem because the individual who is putting himself in that paternal seat is the co-defendant, the person who, if I was arguing, led this child to this course of conduct that he cannot be rectified from and it's problematic.

But you've got to find out, does he need a lawyer, has he requested a lawyer? If he has requested a lawyer, there are no questions. You know it stops and the lawyer comes and then they make a decision on what to do. In this instance, you need some type of legal representation for this person who is 17 years old so they could proceed.

Maybe he wants to talk. Maybe he wants to cooperate. Maybe this guy had him under a Svengali influence. We don't know the factors.

But all of those go into consideration when you're interrogating a juvenile. An adult is different. They have their regular Miranda rights. They can decide whether they want to talk or not. If they request a lawyer, it's over until the lawyer comes and that's where we go.

NEVILLE: Let me get Mr. Guillen in this conversation. I asked you this earlier, sir, but since Ms. Hayes has just brought it up again, Ms. Hayes, I think she intimated that perhaps the younger person in this duo might have been influenced by the adult. What's your take on that?

GUILLEN: Well, it's very possible. I think they were working in tandem and they were probably influencing each other. But the legal system will prove that out.

I basically think these two individuals were acting very, very different from any other cases that I've seen. You seem to see people being flippant. For instance, an example is the final communique. Basically, there's an announcement that they're looking for two individuals, they put out the licenses. In between that time and the arrest there is a call reportedly from the sniper telling the chief to read a communique, saying, you know, that the duck is in the noose.

NEVILLE: The duck is in the noose.

GUILLEN: And that's very odd behavior, because normally people run, whether they are son of Sam, whether it's a sniper, they run. And in this case, very flippant behavior, very unusual behavior, and that raises more questions than answers in this whole thing of personality and who they were and who was influencing whom.

HAYES: You know, I was just going to say that phrase "the duck is in the noose," I've never heard it. You know we're interpreting it, as professionals say, that means that you've got the person, you've got your prey. But I don't know if that's what that means.

So you know this jargon that went back between Chief Moose and this individual, whoever was doing the talking, is very questionable. And I suspect we're going to need some sort of interpreter to tell us what they were meaning. People have codes that they talk in. They have various street language, slang language, and we need to know what they were talking about.

NEVILLE: OK. Ms. Hayes, two things. One, do you think it is likely that Malvo will be charged as an adult? And, secondly, what about charges against Muhammad? What might they be?

HAYES: Well, clearly, if they are alleging that he is the sniper, he's going to be charged with murder. You know, there may be first degree murder, second degree murder, death penalty murder. He's going to be charged with state and federal weapons charges. He could also be charged with extortion.

I think there was information that came out talking about he was asking for $10 million. There was something with a bank account. There is some sort of federal wire fraud or charges or things like that that they could charge him with. And what we have to do is just go to the prosecutors and ask.

But clearly, you have an extortion count. You have several murder counts. You have capital murder counts. There are just any number of things that you want to charge this person with.

And, you know, you want to tighten it, you know, so that this young person who is being charged with a material witness, you want to use that person, because he's right there. He knows everything. And it will help you put the case together.

NEVILLE: Will it be easy to get information from him?

HAYES: Well, we don't know. If he's talking, it will be the greatest thing that's ever happened for them. But you just don't know. You just have to wait and see.

NEVILLE: And that is the final word on this segment. Pam Hayes and Tomas Guillen, thank you very much for giving us your insights.

And coming up, we know one of the two suspects was once in the U.S. military. And next we'll talk to a retired lieutenant colonel about that. We're back in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to this special edition of TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Montgomery County, Maryland. I want to update you on what's going on right now.

We're told that John Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old suspect, is being arraigned in federal court in Baltimore, Maryland at this moment. Arraigned as a material witness in connection with the sniper investigation. We're awaiting the arraignment of John Allen Muhammad, the 41-year-old suspect. We expect that to happen also in Baltimore shortly.

He is being arraigned in connection with firearms violations in Washington state. We have learned during the course of today that in the automobile, the Chevy Caprice, that they were found in, in the middle of the night, at 3:00 AM in Frederick, Maryland, they did find a Bushmaster rifle capable of firing those .223 caliber bullets.

One additional note, we have been told that -- by our Pentagon Correspondent, Barbara Starr -- that Muhammad did receive an M-16 expert marksmanship badge while he served in the U.S. Army at Fort Lewis, Washington. Much more information coming up as we develop it.

We're standing by for a news conference with the Montgomery County police chief in about two hours, 6:00 PM Eastern. We'll have that live here on CNN as well. For now, back to Arthel in Atlanta -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: All right, Wolf. Thank you very much. Now one of the suspects, John Allen Muhammad, is a 41-year-old Gulf War veteran. We -- will that play into this case? Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman joins us from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He has done much research on the psychological cost of war. Thanks so much for joining us.

LT. COL. DAVE GROSSMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Glad to be here.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about the weapon found in the car: a semiautomatic civilian version of a military M-16. Also, a short while ago, Barbara Starr reported that while in the military John Muhammad earned an M-16 expert marksmanship badge. Now, typically, who uses this kind of weapon, how could Muhammad get a hold of one, and what does that mean to this case?

GROSSMAN: Every young soldier who goes through basic training in the military, in most of the branches of the military, gets an opportunity to qualify with an M-16 rifle. And the numbers vary greatly, but roughly 20 percent of every individual, the millions and millions of individuals who pass through the armed forces, have qualified expert with the basic assigned weapon.

The M-16 is a basic assigned weapon. In this case, he's found a civilian weapon that's similar to that M-16. The shots this guy was making -- I'm, as you said, author of the book "On Killing" and adviser The American Sniper Association, technical adviser. The shots this guy was making weren't hard. Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone could put a bullet in a man's head and be a first-time kill. We were dropping buffalo from 200 yards with shots to the head 200 years ago.

The new ingredient is not the capacity to do this. The new ingredient is really the mental mindset of a human being who desires to do something unlike anything that's ever been done before in history.

NEVILLE: Could Muhammad have taught Malvo to use the M-16?

GROSSMAN: It's entirely possible. I could teach you in an hour to be able to make the kind of shots that these guys were making. It is not hard and it's entirely possible he could have taught him.

Like I said, the other part of the equation is the mental part. In the sniper world they talk about one-shot snipers, people who were able to kill one person but never can do it again. No shot snipers who look down the scope and can't kill a human being. The ability to watch a human being's head explode and do it again and again, that takes a degree of desensitization to human death and suffering.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. Colonel Grossman, I want you to continue that thought after the break. I do have to take a break at this point, but when we come back I would like you to continue your thought. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. Continuing our conversation now with Colonel Grossman. Before the break, sir, you were telling us about the mental state of someone who could watch someone's head explode.

GROSSMAN: Over the centuries, literally over the centuries, the United States armed forces have trained millions of boys to be capable of doing what this guy did. And yet, statistically speaking, the returning veteran is less likely to commit violent crimes than a non- veteran of the same age and the same sex.

There is a new ingredient in the equation. We don't know what it is, but in Columbine, Jonesboro, Paduca, the media violence, the violent video games -- and once we look, we may find violent video games are a piece of the equation here.

NEVILLE: Colonel Grossman, thank you very much.

CNN's special in-depth coverage on this fast-moving story will continue throughout the day. That's it for us today. Thanks for watching.

I'm Arthel Neville. I'll see you again tomorrow.

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