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CNN Talkback Live

Who Are John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo?

Aired October 28, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN HOST: Hello everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
There are lots of unanswered questions about two alleged snipers accused of terrorizing the Washington D.C. area for three weeks. The details of their relationship are just becoming to come out. We're going to look into their lives and the charges against them. Also, what if anything, does Islam have to do with the killing spree?

Then stay tuned as Democrats call on an old warrior to help fight for control of the Senate.

Right now though, let's meet our guests. Elaine Shannon, a criminal justice correspondent for "Time" magazine. Elaine is author of "Desperadoes: Latin Drug Lords, U.S. Lawmen and the War America Can't Win."

Also with us is James Wright, assistant city editor for "The Seattle Post Intelligencer."

Welcome to both of you.

JAMES WRIGHT, ASSISTANT CITY EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE POST INTELLIGENCER": Hello.

NEVILLE: Elaine, I'm going to start with you today. As you were doing extensive research on this story, what did you find to be most shocking or unbelievable?

ELAINE SHANNON, CORRESPONDENT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, the killings themselves are unbelievable.

What is remarkable about this whole case is here a couple of people that seem very disorganized, homeless, very confused. The note they sent is very confused. They don't know how to work an ATM card well, because they asked for unlimited access. They're going to get $300, I guess, a day out of the $10 million. That doesn't work that way.

And yet they were able to commit all of these murders and attempted murders without anyone getting a good look at them.

NEVILLE: James, what about you, what did you find to be most shocking or unbelievable while you were researching this story?

WRIGHT: I think it's just the notion that two people could be committing crimes like this halfway across the country and somehow it comes back to our own backyard.

People who here may have been totally off the radar screen for years suddenly are thrust in the spotlight.

NEVILLE: Elaine, so what do you know, what more do you know about John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo?

SHANNON: Well, it looks like they met in Antigua. I think that Muhammad was down there and it is said that one of the things he was doing was help people that wanted to come to the United States get some phony documents. So he met Malvo's mother supposedly there.

And then later, the boy became essentially a runaway and took off with Muhammad.

NEVILLE: Right. James, at any point, if you want to add to, this feel free. Because I also want to know if you -- either of you, would be any closer to a why, why this happened?

WRIGHT: You know, there's been a lot of speculation about that. We don't know, and frankly, it's going to be some time before we have a really good idea of what the motive is.

Probably it will have to come from one of the two people in custody.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about Nathaniel Osbourne. Police have him in custody as a material witness. He is not a suspect. What do you think Nathaniel Osbourne can provide? What information can he provide in this case?

SHANNON: Well, he might provide some insights into all of this. We've heard from other people who knew Muhammad, who has talked about how he was carrying around this book that was instructions on how to make a silencer and how he talked about shooting policemen or setting off a big fire, shooting a gas tank and creating a big scene out on the highway.

This is a guy who's talking about mass murder, indiscriminate murder. He didn't care about sex, age, race, and I think all that's consistent with somebody who's very disturbed, very angry.

NEVILLE: And what, James, what more do you know about Nathaniel Osbourne?

WRIGHT: Almost nothing. He seems to have no ties to this area at all, and just from the kind of reading I've been doing about it from the media everywhere, he seems to be a sideline in this thing. He may have some knowledge, but it appears that he's not involved in the actual snipings.

NEVILLE: Hey, listen, guys, I don't want to box you into any kind of corner here, so I want you to tell me, when -- you both did extensive research on this story. So, you're here to talk to us here on TALKBACK LIVE and to share your perspectives.

So why don't you go ahead and shoot, just kind of a stream of consciousness on this story.

Elaine, I'm going to start with you on that.

SHANNON: Well, obviously this came out of nowhere and just hit this area in a way that we didn't even see in 9/11. The tip line got 138,000 calls, which is, I think, a lot more than 9/11, and it's certainly a lot more than any other serial killing of this kind.

We have so many questions about this pair. I know that ATF is now going to look at ballistics results from unsolved murders all over the country to see if Muhammad or others associated with him committed other crimes some place else. They're also going to be looking at unidentified prints from crimes, robberies, maybe see how these guys were supporting themselves.

NEVILLE: Yes, because I understand that Muhammad had a lot of cash on hand at one point.

SHANNON: That's what we've heard.

WRIGHT: He seems to have always had the ability to go places and do things, whether or not he was doing that through odd jobs, we've heard some of that, or whether he had other sources that involved criminal activity is still anyone's guess.

I think it's fairly safe to say, though, he was living on the margin for several years and probably didn't have a big overhead except for maybe travel costs.

NEVILLE: OK, let's get the audience involved here. I have Dan (ph) from New York.

DAN: Is there any thought on why Washington D.C. was chosen, since they weren't from that area?

WRIGHT: There is some speculation that he might have been trying to catch his ex-wife's attention. She lives in the Washington D.C. area now.

But there's really no indication that he even knew that she was there. We don't know exactly what drew him there at this point.

NEVILLE: I see and I have John (ph) from Pennsylvania.

JOHN: Yes, what I wanted to know is there's been chatter about Muhammad's sympathy with the September 11 hijackers. I was wondering if anybody's found out anything more about that? Does he have a real connection to them or anything like that?

SHANNON: He looks like, to me, so many people who have done terrible things, Tim McVeigh, others in that realm who are -- maybe have looked at -- dabbled in various movements, picked up a little rhetoric, showed up here and there but are never regular attendees at meetings and certainly not in the leadership, just sort of hanging around the edges and maybe spreading rhetoric here or there. But there's no rhetoric in any of these notes. It's just about money and about ego.

WRIGHT: I would second that. There seems to be a lot of indication this guy told all kinds of stories to everybody at any time. For one person he was a CIA operative. For another one he was a successful businessman. I don't know that you can really trust anything that he says as being his true feelings.

On top of that, we have found no one who really says he showed any indication that said he was involved in terrorism or had inclination to it, other than what he's already done. But politics, we don't know.

NEVILLE: Let's go to the phones. Don (ph) is standing by right here in Georgia.

CALLER: Good morning. Hello.

NEVILLE: Hello. You're live.

CALLER: Yes, hi. One quick question -- not a question, but just a brief statement.

NEVILLE: Turn your TV down.

CALLER: It's on mute.

NEVILLE: Oh, okay.

CALLER: Oh, that's up. No, I would like to see, irrespective of jurisdiction up in the Maryland/D.C. area, I don't think that's critically important.

I think what needs to be done in an expeditious manner is that they're prosecuted and executed. Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Guys, I want to get into a Jamat al Fuquah (ph), a Muslim group that the state department says operates out of -- is a terrorist organization operates out of -- it's a terrorist organization operating out of Afghanistan and North America. There was mention that perhaps Muhammad and Malvo might have been connected.

You have heard any further information on that?

SHANNON: I have not. I think that the FBI, ATF, Montgomery County, other members of the task force are going to be trying to backtrack through these people's lives as they did with Tim McVeigh and others to try and figure out where they've been and who they've been associated with over the years.

But these are terrible, senseless, stupid, meaningless crimes. And it would -- some people terribly want to find a conspiracy here and there just may not be one.

NEVILLE: Hey James, you know, earlier we touched on the fact that Malvo -- Muhammad at one point had a lot of cash in hand. Wondering if you have any information as to whether or not this had anything to do with his so-called import/export immigration business?

WRIGHT: It may well have. That's an area that's really now just coming to light and no one is exactly sure what was going on with that. It's notable that, as recently as last June, he was able to buy what was a very expensive high-end weapon, if in fact he did buy it. Even that is still up in the air. There are a lot of cheaper rifles he could have bought, but he liked the best, apparently.

NEVILLE: But let's talk about this so-called immigration import/export business. Tell me more about that. What is that?

WRIGHT: I don't really have a lot on that. That's coming out of Miami, and all we know there he apparently was providing documentation to people coming in from the Caribbean through Miami, through a system that he would somehow get them paperwork that would get them through customs.

He was caught, however. And we're still trying to piece out why he was not prosecuted. He was apparently just let go.

NEVILLE: Listen, I have to take a break right now.

Up next, we are going to talk to two people who knew John Allen Muhammad. Find out what he told them, and whether he showed any signs of violence. They're standing by. And then later, I'll talk to you about a turf battle raging over who should get first crack at prosecuting the sniper suspects. Our lawyers will explain why it matters.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They would come in, use the equipment -- treadmill, other types of cardio equipment. The older fellow seemed to be talkative, the younger fellow was always very quiet, never said a word. They were always together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. We are talking about suspected snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, and right now, I'd like you to meet Lynn Farmer, owner of the Waterfront Tavern in Bellingham, Washington. Also Wally Oyens, a bartender at the tavern. They knew John Allen Muhammad. They say he was a regular customer at the tavern. And Lynn and Wally -- are they gone, guys? OK -- I think we have lost -- that's fine. We lost that satellite. We are going to get it back up and bring those guys to you -- in fact, I think we have them back.

Lynn and Wally, are you there? Great.

LYNN FARMER, OWNER, WATERFRONT TAVERN: Yes, we are.

NEVILLE: Thanks so much for being with us here on TALKBACK LIVE today.

FARMER: You're welcome.

NEVILLE: OK, listen. Which one of you was the last to see John Muhammad and Malvo?

FARMER: I don't know. I would see them on a regular basis, seven days a week, when he would come in in the mornings. I can't recall if he stopped coming in during the week or on a weekend, which is when Wally works.

NEVILLE: So tell me, the last time you saw John Muhammad, what was he doing, why was he in your place of business, and what did you guys talk about?

WALLY OYENS, BARTENDER, WATERFRONT TAVERN: Basically, when he came in, it's really like we don't have a specific memory of exactly when he stopped coming in. He really did nothing to attract attention. The pattern that kind of follows here with the people who are basically transients, is that we will see them for a period of time, and then one day they just don't show up anymore. We really don't think too much special of it.

NEVILLE: But Wally, when you -- I understand you served Mr. Muhammad beers. Is that true?

OYENS: Yes. He -- every time he came in, he usually came in during the same time frame every day, roughly 9:00 to 11:00 in the morning, and he would nurse two or three beers over a period of time, and then get up and leave. He was always polite. He was -- he was never really outgoing. He didn't initiate any conversation, so he really didn't do anything much to distinguish himself.

NEVILLE: And so he never really talked too much to you, so you have no recollection of any conversations, specific conversations with him. Lynn, did you run into Muhammad? What was your encounter like?

FARMER: I would see him every morning. During the week, he would come in anywhere from 7:00 to 10:00. He would come in earlier during the week, and I would get here about 8:10, and I'd go behind the bar and I would just say hello to him, the same I did with the other customers, and he would, say -- I would say, How are you doing? And he would say, Fine, how are you doing? And then that would be pretty much the extent of our conversation. I talked to him a little bit more when he applied for the cook's position. We weren't hiring at the time, so I told him we would just keep his application on file. But that was the most that I had spoken to him.

NEVILLE: And did you read his application, was there anything that stood out? What did he say on the application?

FARMER: He filled it out John Allen Muhammad. I can't recall a lot of details. I do recall that he put down the address of the mission. And that's pretty much is -- what I can remember as far as his application goes. NEVILLE: Now, I know you don't know exactly the date, but I just want to get an idea of a time frame of when we're talking about, two weeks ago, three weeks ago? When was this?

FARMER: He filled out the job application last October, November, but he had been coming in the tavern before that, and he continued to come in after that as well.

NEVILLE: Hey, Wally, when you noticed Muhammad, did you notice him carrying anything? I mean, I've read reports where he, at some point, always carried a long black bag.

OYENS: It was a long, dark-colored bag. We have a strict policy here, people checking in their bags at the -- when they come in. We don't want them carrying them around the tavern or whatever, and he usually had to be reminded of that, he wanted to keep it with him. We're accustomed to seeing the people who live at the mission, the ones that do come in here, tend to carry their belongings with them, rather than leaving them at the mission all day. So there wasn't anything that we thought was particularly unusual.

NEVILLE: But now, when you told Muhammad -- reminded him, Listen, you can't carry your bag around the restaurant, what did he say? Did he say, Great, I'll check it in, or...

OYENS: Yes. He always handed it over willingly. I would stick it behind the bar. Never noticed anything -- there wasn't anything to attract attention to the bag, other than the fact that he did usually have to be reminded that he needed to turn it in.

NEVILLE: Hey Lynn, before I let you guys go, when you see someone's picture on the news being a suspected sniper, knowing that you ran into this person, had some sort of contact with the person, what did you think when he saw his picture on the news?

FARMER: We were stunned. We were absolutely stunned. My comment to my other bartender, Millie (ph), was Oh my God, Millie (ph), you served him every day for like a month, and then I called my previous kitchen manager and said, Debbie (ph), turn on the news, you're not going to believe this, and we were stunned. We were all in shock.

NEVILLE: Wow. Lynn Farmer and Wally Oyens, thank you very much for being here with us today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And Elaine and James, I know you're still standing there. You were listening to that conversation. Before I let you go, kind of a little bit of a turn here, several years ago John Muhammad became John Muhammad. He was John Allen Williams before. I just wanted to know what you had been reporting regarding his Muslim ties?

WRIGHT: Well, we're still -- again -- piecing that together. It appears that he converted to Islam -- or to the Nation of Islam in 1985, but he didn't change his name until about a year ago, a little over a year ago. He was, by some accounts, an observant Muslim, by some accounts not. He did drink beer apparently. It's very unclear whether he had really much contact with the Nation of Islam other than occasionally attending a temple here in Seattle. It's been reported that he provided security at the Million Man March. I understand the Nation of Islam says, No, that's not true. They never heard of him. And from what I know of his veracity on other subjects, it's entirely possible he told neighbors that's where he was going and went some place else.

NEVILLE: Hey, Elaine, do you know if authorities are looking into possible other crimes that may have been committed by Muhammad and/or Malvo?

SHANNON: Oh, absolutely. There are still a lot questions about what they were doing in Montgomery and if somebody was with them. They have been, I believe, charged with -- or their going to be in the killing of the one woman and the wounding of the second.

And obviously, they did have some money, maybe not a great deal, but it costs money to travel. So there'll be crimes all across the country that'll be looked at.

NEVILLE: OK, Elaine Shannon and James Wright, thank you both for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And up next, do the sniper killings call out for the death penalty, even if one of the accused snipers is a juvenile? We're going to get a rundown of the charges being brought against Muhammad and Malvo after this. And you can you go ahead and call or e-mail to get in on the conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everyone.

Earlier today suspected snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo were in -- indicted in Virginia. CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now to spell out the details.

Hi, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Arthel.

NEVILLE: First of all, what exactly are those charges and how likely is it that we'll see a trial in Virginia?

KOCH: Well, it's quite a long list of charges. And I'll go through them. These were filed in two Virginia counties, Spotsylvainia and Hanover.

The first one, Spotsylvania, they charged the two men with capital murder, that was for the shooting October 11, of Philadelphia Businessman Kenneth Bridges at that gas station.

Then in Hanover County, we had a long list of charges. Attempted murder, conspiracy to commit capital murder, aggravated malicious wounding. Also in both cases they were charged with two counts of use of firearm in the commission of a felony and the commission of a terrorist act. And these were for the shootings on October 4 of that woman outside the Michael's craft store and then October 19 shooting of that gentleman outside the steakhouse in Ashland, Virginia.

Virginia believes it has strong cases. It has had both fatalities and both woundings in that state. However, as we all are aware, Montgomery County jumped out early on Friday, announced its intention to go forward with six capital murder charges. Obviously that caused a great deal of consternation because the other jurisdictions said, Hey wait. We haven't reached any sort of agreement on this.

And -- but Doug Gansler, the Montgomery County state attorney, he said, Well, since we had the six murders -- six of the ten murders in our county, we have more evidence, we can present the best case and we can get a conviction.

But you know, Arthel, the whole debate is who can get the death penalty. And in Maryland, only adults can be put to death.

NEVILLE: Right.

KOCH: The state also has this moratorium on the death penalty which is due to expire this spring. But nonetheless, many people feel having executed only three people since 1976 versus some -- I think it's some 84, I believe, 83 in Virginia. The Virginia's death penalty law's much stronger and they have no exclusion on the execution of minors. Hot debate.

NEVILLE: Exactly. Then I understand there is sort of a situation between the federal and local authorities not being on the same page as to who is going to try these guys. And again, it just is sort of very -- a tangled legal web there.

KOCH: It is. And I think that the federal government, at this point they still have the two men in custody. You know, what do they say? What is the old saying? Possession is nine-tenths of law. And they haven't indicated at this point they're ready to turn them over to any other jurisdiction to be tried.

But again, Virginia is trying to say, We have the stronger death penalty law. We should go ahead first, even though we may not have had the number of deaths Maryland has had. And then there's also Alabama that has filed some charges. It wants to try to bring these men to justice as well.

So a lot of competition now that the men are in custody.

NEVILLE: Kathleen Koch, thank you very much for the update.

And when we come back, you head Kathleen Koch, she told us there's a long list of charges against these two men. OK, so what will prosecutors have to do to make those charges stick? And what will defense attorneys have to do to get those two to walk free? We'll talk about it with our legal guests who are standing by. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

With us now is former federal prosecutor Raoul Lionel Felder and former U.S. attorney Marcellus McRae. Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.

Marcellus, I'm going to go with you first on this one. Seven jurisdictions here, Maryland and Virginia, already filed charges. Who's going to get first crack at these two men in a courtroom?

MARCELLUS MCRAE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: That's a very good question. As you know, both federal and state authorities are pondering that issue now. I think the key thing to focus on is the fact that the two men are presently in federal custody. And ultimately, the federal authorities are going to decide who gets to go first with respect to their criminal cases.

NEVILLE: Does it matter who goes first, Raul?

RAOUL FELDER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it really doesn't matter, but it should be the one who has the best case. Now really the best case ought to be ready by Alabama at this point, because they have been investigating a long time. The first one out of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) happened over there. And it seems -- and they have a death penalty, too, Alabama.

So it seems more sensible to be Alabama. But you know there's a lot of sort of politics in the air, prosecutorial politics, and you never can tell what's going to happen. But he's quite right, the Feds have the suspects now and they're going to make the decision at some point.

NEVILLE: Well then, Marcellus, talk about, if you will, the ramifications involved, depending on where these two men are tried?

MCRAE: Well, I think the ramifications are exactly what Mr. Felder was pointing out. I think the critical issue is that you want to make sure that you have the best case, obviously with the highest likelihood of getting the death penalty if you're a prosecutor. Certainly the other factor to consider is that you want to make sure that while the witnesses are fresh, while their memories are strong, while the evidence is in the best form that it can possibly be, you proceed in that jurisdiction where you're most likely to have a conviction.

NEVILLE: So would that be Maryland, do you think?

MCRAE: Well, the problem with Maryland, as you know, is Maryland has the issue with respect to the moratorium on the death penalty.

NEVILLE: Right, but you were saying in terms of witness, the most -- the fresher memory.

MCRAE: I think that for purposes of talking about fresher memory and the evidence, I think both Virginia and Maryland have fairly compelling claims with respect to that. And I think the other point to consider is not only getting a conviction, but making sure that the conviction is upheld.

There you have to look to Virginia. Since 1976, Virginia has had at lease 86 cases where people have been put to death, as opposed to Maryland, which have had three which have been stayed. And I think you have a higher likelihood with the federal authorities and the courts in Virginia upholding those death penalty convictions.

NEVILLE: Let me go to Florida, where Bob is standing by on the phone. Go ahead, Bob, you're live.

CALLER: Thanks for taking my call. I just want to comment that, from where I sit on the outside, it looks to me like we have a bunch of prosecuting attorneys that are on an ego trip. They all want to be in the limelight to hang these people if they're guilty. And I think they ought to sit down and get their heads together and decide among themselves where's the best place to get a speedy trial and speedy justice in favor of the community as a whole. Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thank you. Raoul, you're shaking your head.

FELDER: Well, you everybody wants to be Chris Darden and Marcia Clark. And everybody has political aspirations. But Mr. McRae had a good point. This is hardball in the big leagues. You have to look at the appellate courts and see what kind of sustaining record they have.

And, of course, Virginia has since '76, 83. The other state has three -- or 86 I think it has. So Virginia looks like the place to go to, because you can get the juvenile in there also.

NEVILLE: Let me get Marvin's (ph) opinion. You are from Maryland, sir.

MARVIN: I'm from Montgomery County, Maryland. I lived through this, I caught the anxiety. You know there has been a lot of people released from prison because of DNA evidence. These peoples had been convicted based on the evidence Based on the numbers, I think it's safe to say that at least 10 percent of the people in this country is executed were innocent. I mean that is worse than what this crime -- the crime that these men...

NEVILLE: And your point regarding this case is?

MARVIN: That they should not be -- that we should not have the death penalty. They should not be executed. They should be put in a maximum security prison with limited life experience and be there for the rest of their life.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, Marvin (ph).

And I have Priscilla (ph) who is standing by on the phone. She's also from Maryland. Go ahead, Priscilla (ph).

CALLER: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I think that it's really terrible that they're going to kill these guys, execute them or whatever. Make them suffer. I mean, you know, that's like (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They don't care about dying. It's obvious from them doing the crimes.

So why just kill them? Make them suffer. The families are suffering, everybody's suffering. And they won't be the ones to suffer. It will be done and over with.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much for calling, Priscilla (ph). Let me get Jason (ph) from New Mexico.

JASON: A question I've got for you guys is why not just do it federal? Because then couldn't all the jurisdictions from all the different states get in under one lump sum?

FELDER: No. As far as I know, the Hobbs Act (ph) is the only federal crime here, which is basically using -- crossing state lines for extortion. They wanted $10 million at some point. But that's not a death penalty case as far as I know.

NEVILLE: Hey, Marcellus, so if one jurisdiction hands down the death penalty, is it a moot point for the others to try these guys?

MCRAE: I don't think it's a moot point. I think the fact is that each one of the jurisdictions that would seek to have these criminal proceedings have constituents, they have families that have lost people. And I think there's a point for these people to be brought to justice in each one of the jurisdictions where's this occurred. I think it would be far from moot.

NEVILLE: Let's get Melissa's (ph) reaction here from Washington, D.C.

MELISSA: I think that we have a larger problem in the federal death penalty and in the state death penalty programs. And I think until that we look at the racial disparities in the death penalty system, we can't arbitrarily pick different people to stay executions and different people to execute.

NEVILLE: OK. Thank you, first of all, for standing up.

And Raoul, I want you to touch on something that Marcellus just said. And that is, in fact, if one jurisdiction hands down the death penalty, then it's not a moot point for the others to try those guys. Could you expound on that for us?

FELDER: No, you can have multiple jurisdictions. One doesn't depend on the other. Although, testimony of one could be used in the other jurisdictions. It's surprising to have three people here who are against the death penalty. Now, you now if we meet it squarely on, just as this whole horrible episode was a downer for the pro-gun people, it had to be an upper for people who want the death penalty.

And yet you have three people who are not in favor of it. I mean if any case cries out for the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate penalty, it's certainly this man. These two people have held five million people hostage, tide up 2,000 members of the law enforcement community, destroyed an economy for many days in areas. This is horrendous, and yet you see people are against the death penalty.

NEVILLE: People against it, like Marvin (ph), who is from Montgomery County, Maryland. Raoul Felder and Marcellus McRae, thank you very much for joining us here today.

FELDER: Thank you.

MCRAE: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK.

Up next, can an old war horse help Democrats hold on to Paul Wellstone's Senate seat in Minnesota? We'll talk about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These continue to be very difficult times for the Democratic family across the state of Minnesota.

NEVILLE: What effect will Senator Paul Wellstone's untimely death have on the balance of power in the Senate? And can this man keep Democrats in the running? The talk continues after this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

Supporters in Minnesota, as well as members of the U.S. Senate, today mourned the death of Senator Paul Wellstone. As you might know, Wellstone along with his wife, daughter and five others, were killed when their small plane crashed on Friday.

Wellstone was in the midst of a very tough re-election campaign, and his untimely death put pressure on state Democrats to come up with a candidate before next week's elections. With just days to go and control of the Senate up for grabs, party leaders called on former Vice President Walter Mondale to help out, as well as one of Mr. Wellstone's sons.

Here to talk about it are Sherry Bebitch Jeffe, a political science professor and senior scholar with the School of Policy Planning and Development and the University of Southern California -- hello.

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: Hi, Arthel.

NEVILLE: And Rich Galen, a political columnist with Mullings.com -- hi, Rich. RICH GALEN, MULLINGS.COM: Hi. I want it noted for the record, it took me 7.5 years to get my undergraduate degree. So this is not going to be fair.

NEVILLE: You know what, Rich, somehow I think you can handle yourself.

BEBITCH JEFFE: I have no doubt, Rich.

NEVILLE: But you know what? I am going to start with Sherri, no favoritism here. Sherri, can Mondale win and is he a good choice?

BEBITCH JEFFE: Well, I think he's just about the only choice right now, Arthel. The other name that was mentioned, Allen Paige (ph), who is a Supreme Court justice, is an interesting choice, but Mondale's got the stature, the experience, the name recognition. And the campaign is a week long.

NEVILLE: And what platform will he stand on in that short amount of time?

BEBITCH JEFFE: I expect he's not going to rely on his own career. He will be the fighter for the little guy. He will be carrying the torch for the Wellstone legacy. And he will work -- he will position himself as carrying on the role of Paul Wellstone for Minnesota. Ironically, he will be running for the seat that he once held, that Mondale once held.

NEVILLE: Yes. That's correct. Rich, of course, you just heard what Sherry said in terms of running on Wellstone's platform and what his legacy and his work. Certainly not...

GALEN: Want me to help?

NEVILLE: No, no, no. I'm just saying, of course, this is a difficult thing. Because you don't want to seem callous, but then the idea of a sympathy vote does come to mind. And I just wanted your thoughts on that.

GALEN: Well, this is completely different from a situation like we had in Missouri...

NEVILLE: Right.

GALEN: ... where the Senators -- or the governor's wife was going to be the stand-in for Mel Carnahan. And in fact, she has been.

In this case, what we have is a situation where Senator Wellstone will not appear on the ballot. Where there will be a sympathy vote to some degree, but you know Norm Coleman used to be a Democrat. He's a pretty well respected guy in his own right. And I think you have to look at Walter Mondale. The fact is that the last time he served in public office was 1980, when he and Jimmy Carter lost to Ronald Reagan.

And so people -- it's been 22 years since anybody in Minnesota has seen Walter Mondale as a political figure. So I'm not so sure -- I think Sherriy's right. The name ID is a big deal here, but it's not clear to me that there will be a huge sweep of support for Walter Mondale.

NEVILLE: Really?

BEBITCH JEFFE: I don't know.

NEVILLE: If you can excuse me, Sherry, I want to take a call now from Minnesota where Jeff (ph) is standing by on the line. Go ahead, Jeff (ph).

CALLER: Yes, hi. Actually, I know where Mondale is half the time. He's at home by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) raking his leaves. But anyhow, I used to deliver pamphlets for this man, Mondale, back in the '80s. And through the years, I've dabbled into being republic into the Democratic issue here...

GALEN: What were you delivering pamphlets for in the '80s.

CALLER: He was running for vice president with Ferraro.

GALEN: No, that was in 1976.

(CROSSTALK)

BEBITCH JEFFE: He ran for president in 1984. Let's not forget that.

GALEN: Yes, OK. Right. And he got 13 votes.

CALLER: Right, I'm sorry. It's 2003 now or 2003 we're in.

NEVILLE: It's OK.

CALLER: But anyhow, what I'm saying is Mondale and Wellstone did get along good as running partners or whatever -- little idea takers. But they do share negative opinions on certain things.

NEVILLE: So, Jeff (ph), do you think Mondale could win?

CALLER: I believe so, and that is partially through the sympathetic vote.

NEVILLE: And your question is?

CALLER: My question is, is what are the -- I've heard through comments and everybody else and when I'm talking with other people here in Minnesota, which there's a guy from me who's devastated. He ran for Wellstone. He worked every day. He's a very hard worker for him.

NEVILLE: Yes.

CALLER: And he's crushed. We gave him flowers and everything.

NEVILLE: Oh, that was very nice.

CALLER: But what I'm trying to get to is what does Mondale's negative opinions and Wellstone -- because they've had controversies where they didn't agree on certain things.

NEVILLE: right.

CALLER: Now what are those things?

NEVILLE: OK. Sherry, I'm not sure if you want to address that. If not, I can move on.

BEBITCH JEFFE: Well, in general, there is a feeling that Mondale is not -- excuse me, the natural inheritor of the Wellstone mantle. He is not quite so liberal on some issues as is Wellstone. And in fact, Newt Gingrich was on television on the chat shows this Sunday pointing out that Mondale chaired a commission which called for the privatization of Social Security, which called for raising the retirement age.

And I think this is the tact that Republicans will take. I don't think Coleman will engage in that attack. It's much too dicey and insensitive.

NEVILLE: Exactly.

BEBITCH JEFFE: But Newt Gingrich and others will go a long way to pointing out where Mondale stood and stands now.

NEVILLE: I want to talk a little bit more after the break, but I do have to take a break right now.

When we come back, moving tributes to Senator Paul Wellstone on Capitol Hill today. CNN's Jonathan Karl is there and we'll bring you that story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

We're talking about the battle for control of the Senate in light of Senator Paul Wellstone's untimely death. Joining us now is CNN's Congressional Correspondent Jonathan Karl.

Good afternoon, Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Arthel.

NEVILLE: If you could tell us the mood in Washington today.

KARL: Well, here at the Capitol, you know it's quiet, because they are only in pro forma session. But even on this quiet day, you look out, the flag is at half staff. And today, they took and they draped Senator Wellstone's desk on the Senate floor in black and put a vase of flowers on it, as a series of senators who were here, the handful that are in town came out and eulogized him.

He is really an incredibly fondly remembered figure, because although many people, especially on the conservative side, disagreed with him philosophically, he was beloved as somebody who really stood up for his belief and cared less about political calculations than about his liberal principles.

And even just among the people here that work, the rank and file, the capital policemen, the people who drive the subways in the capital, the people that work in the cafeterias, I've talked to many of them who just reach out to me because they've seen me covering the story and talk about how sad they are to see Wellstone is gone. Because Wellstone is one of those senators that reached out to the people who didn't have the big titles and the big salaries up here.

He was the kind of person that knew the elevator operators by name, knew the subway operators, took time to talk to them. And he's really missed by everybody up here.

NEVILLE: Jonathan Karl, thank you very much for that perspective. We do have to take a break right now. More on TALKBACK LIVE in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Unfortunately, we are out of time. I want to thank so much to Sherry Bebitch Jeffe and Rich Galen. I really enjoyed talking to both of you. I want to have you back again if you would come back -- good.

I'm Arthel Neville. Join me again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific for more TALKBACK LIVE. Wolf Blitzer is next with a news update.

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Aired October 28, 2002 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN HOST: Hello everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
There are lots of unanswered questions about two alleged snipers accused of terrorizing the Washington D.C. area for three weeks. The details of their relationship are just becoming to come out. We're going to look into their lives and the charges against them. Also, what if anything, does Islam have to do with the killing spree?

Then stay tuned as Democrats call on an old warrior to help fight for control of the Senate.

Right now though, let's meet our guests. Elaine Shannon, a criminal justice correspondent for "Time" magazine. Elaine is author of "Desperadoes: Latin Drug Lords, U.S. Lawmen and the War America Can't Win."

Also with us is James Wright, assistant city editor for "The Seattle Post Intelligencer."

Welcome to both of you.

JAMES WRIGHT, ASSISTANT CITY EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE POST INTELLIGENCER": Hello.

NEVILLE: Elaine, I'm going to start with you today. As you were doing extensive research on this story, what did you find to be most shocking or unbelievable?

ELAINE SHANNON, CORRESPONDENT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, the killings themselves are unbelievable.

What is remarkable about this whole case is here a couple of people that seem very disorganized, homeless, very confused. The note they sent is very confused. They don't know how to work an ATM card well, because they asked for unlimited access. They're going to get $300, I guess, a day out of the $10 million. That doesn't work that way.

And yet they were able to commit all of these murders and attempted murders without anyone getting a good look at them.

NEVILLE: James, what about you, what did you find to be most shocking or unbelievable while you were researching this story?

WRIGHT: I think it's just the notion that two people could be committing crimes like this halfway across the country and somehow it comes back to our own backyard.

People who here may have been totally off the radar screen for years suddenly are thrust in the spotlight.

NEVILLE: Elaine, so what do you know, what more do you know about John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo?

SHANNON: Well, it looks like they met in Antigua. I think that Muhammad was down there and it is said that one of the things he was doing was help people that wanted to come to the United States get some phony documents. So he met Malvo's mother supposedly there.

And then later, the boy became essentially a runaway and took off with Muhammad.

NEVILLE: Right. James, at any point, if you want to add to, this feel free. Because I also want to know if you -- either of you, would be any closer to a why, why this happened?

WRIGHT: You know, there's been a lot of speculation about that. We don't know, and frankly, it's going to be some time before we have a really good idea of what the motive is.

Probably it will have to come from one of the two people in custody.

NEVILLE: Let's talk about Nathaniel Osbourne. Police have him in custody as a material witness. He is not a suspect. What do you think Nathaniel Osbourne can provide? What information can he provide in this case?

SHANNON: Well, he might provide some insights into all of this. We've heard from other people who knew Muhammad, who has talked about how he was carrying around this book that was instructions on how to make a silencer and how he talked about shooting policemen or setting off a big fire, shooting a gas tank and creating a big scene out on the highway.

This is a guy who's talking about mass murder, indiscriminate murder. He didn't care about sex, age, race, and I think all that's consistent with somebody who's very disturbed, very angry.

NEVILLE: And what, James, what more do you know about Nathaniel Osbourne?

WRIGHT: Almost nothing. He seems to have no ties to this area at all, and just from the kind of reading I've been doing about it from the media everywhere, he seems to be a sideline in this thing. He may have some knowledge, but it appears that he's not involved in the actual snipings.

NEVILLE: Hey, listen, guys, I don't want to box you into any kind of corner here, so I want you to tell me, when -- you both did extensive research on this story. So, you're here to talk to us here on TALKBACK LIVE and to share your perspectives.

So why don't you go ahead and shoot, just kind of a stream of consciousness on this story.

Elaine, I'm going to start with you on that.

SHANNON: Well, obviously this came out of nowhere and just hit this area in a way that we didn't even see in 9/11. The tip line got 138,000 calls, which is, I think, a lot more than 9/11, and it's certainly a lot more than any other serial killing of this kind.

We have so many questions about this pair. I know that ATF is now going to look at ballistics results from unsolved murders all over the country to see if Muhammad or others associated with him committed other crimes some place else. They're also going to be looking at unidentified prints from crimes, robberies, maybe see how these guys were supporting themselves.

NEVILLE: Yes, because I understand that Muhammad had a lot of cash on hand at one point.

SHANNON: That's what we've heard.

WRIGHT: He seems to have always had the ability to go places and do things, whether or not he was doing that through odd jobs, we've heard some of that, or whether he had other sources that involved criminal activity is still anyone's guess.

I think it's fairly safe to say, though, he was living on the margin for several years and probably didn't have a big overhead except for maybe travel costs.

NEVILLE: OK, let's get the audience involved here. I have Dan (ph) from New York.

DAN: Is there any thought on why Washington D.C. was chosen, since they weren't from that area?

WRIGHT: There is some speculation that he might have been trying to catch his ex-wife's attention. She lives in the Washington D.C. area now.

But there's really no indication that he even knew that she was there. We don't know exactly what drew him there at this point.

NEVILLE: I see and I have John (ph) from Pennsylvania.

JOHN: Yes, what I wanted to know is there's been chatter about Muhammad's sympathy with the September 11 hijackers. I was wondering if anybody's found out anything more about that? Does he have a real connection to them or anything like that?

SHANNON: He looks like, to me, so many people who have done terrible things, Tim McVeigh, others in that realm who are -- maybe have looked at -- dabbled in various movements, picked up a little rhetoric, showed up here and there but are never regular attendees at meetings and certainly not in the leadership, just sort of hanging around the edges and maybe spreading rhetoric here or there. But there's no rhetoric in any of these notes. It's just about money and about ego.

WRIGHT: I would second that. There seems to be a lot of indication this guy told all kinds of stories to everybody at any time. For one person he was a CIA operative. For another one he was a successful businessman. I don't know that you can really trust anything that he says as being his true feelings.

On top of that, we have found no one who really says he showed any indication that said he was involved in terrorism or had inclination to it, other than what he's already done. But politics, we don't know.

NEVILLE: Let's go to the phones. Don (ph) is standing by right here in Georgia.

CALLER: Good morning. Hello.

NEVILLE: Hello. You're live.

CALLER: Yes, hi. One quick question -- not a question, but just a brief statement.

NEVILLE: Turn your TV down.

CALLER: It's on mute.

NEVILLE: Oh, okay.

CALLER: Oh, that's up. No, I would like to see, irrespective of jurisdiction up in the Maryland/D.C. area, I don't think that's critically important.

I think what needs to be done in an expeditious manner is that they're prosecuted and executed. Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Guys, I want to get into a Jamat al Fuquah (ph), a Muslim group that the state department says operates out of -- is a terrorist organization operates out of -- it's a terrorist organization operating out of Afghanistan and North America. There was mention that perhaps Muhammad and Malvo might have been connected.

You have heard any further information on that?

SHANNON: I have not. I think that the FBI, ATF, Montgomery County, other members of the task force are going to be trying to backtrack through these people's lives as they did with Tim McVeigh and others to try and figure out where they've been and who they've been associated with over the years.

But these are terrible, senseless, stupid, meaningless crimes. And it would -- some people terribly want to find a conspiracy here and there just may not be one.

NEVILLE: Hey James, you know, earlier we touched on the fact that Malvo -- Muhammad at one point had a lot of cash in hand. Wondering if you have any information as to whether or not this had anything to do with his so-called import/export immigration business?

WRIGHT: It may well have. That's an area that's really now just coming to light and no one is exactly sure what was going on with that. It's notable that, as recently as last June, he was able to buy what was a very expensive high-end weapon, if in fact he did buy it. Even that is still up in the air. There are a lot of cheaper rifles he could have bought, but he liked the best, apparently.

NEVILLE: But let's talk about this so-called immigration import/export business. Tell me more about that. What is that?

WRIGHT: I don't really have a lot on that. That's coming out of Miami, and all we know there he apparently was providing documentation to people coming in from the Caribbean through Miami, through a system that he would somehow get them paperwork that would get them through customs.

He was caught, however. And we're still trying to piece out why he was not prosecuted. He was apparently just let go.

NEVILLE: Listen, I have to take a break right now.

Up next, we are going to talk to two people who knew John Allen Muhammad. Find out what he told them, and whether he showed any signs of violence. They're standing by. And then later, I'll talk to you about a turf battle raging over who should get first crack at prosecuting the sniper suspects. Our lawyers will explain why it matters.

TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They would come in, use the equipment -- treadmill, other types of cardio equipment. The older fellow seemed to be talkative, the younger fellow was always very quiet, never said a word. They were always together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. We are talking about suspected snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, and right now, I'd like you to meet Lynn Farmer, owner of the Waterfront Tavern in Bellingham, Washington. Also Wally Oyens, a bartender at the tavern. They knew John Allen Muhammad. They say he was a regular customer at the tavern. And Lynn and Wally -- are they gone, guys? OK -- I think we have lost -- that's fine. We lost that satellite. We are going to get it back up and bring those guys to you -- in fact, I think we have them back.

Lynn and Wally, are you there? Great.

LYNN FARMER, OWNER, WATERFRONT TAVERN: Yes, we are.

NEVILLE: Thanks so much for being with us here on TALKBACK LIVE today.

FARMER: You're welcome.

NEVILLE: OK, listen. Which one of you was the last to see John Muhammad and Malvo?

FARMER: I don't know. I would see them on a regular basis, seven days a week, when he would come in in the mornings. I can't recall if he stopped coming in during the week or on a weekend, which is when Wally works.

NEVILLE: So tell me, the last time you saw John Muhammad, what was he doing, why was he in your place of business, and what did you guys talk about?

WALLY OYENS, BARTENDER, WATERFRONT TAVERN: Basically, when he came in, it's really like we don't have a specific memory of exactly when he stopped coming in. He really did nothing to attract attention. The pattern that kind of follows here with the people who are basically transients, is that we will see them for a period of time, and then one day they just don't show up anymore. We really don't think too much special of it.

NEVILLE: But Wally, when you -- I understand you served Mr. Muhammad beers. Is that true?

OYENS: Yes. He -- every time he came in, he usually came in during the same time frame every day, roughly 9:00 to 11:00 in the morning, and he would nurse two or three beers over a period of time, and then get up and leave. He was always polite. He was -- he was never really outgoing. He didn't initiate any conversation, so he really didn't do anything much to distinguish himself.

NEVILLE: And so he never really talked too much to you, so you have no recollection of any conversations, specific conversations with him. Lynn, did you run into Muhammad? What was your encounter like?

FARMER: I would see him every morning. During the week, he would come in anywhere from 7:00 to 10:00. He would come in earlier during the week, and I would get here about 8:10, and I'd go behind the bar and I would just say hello to him, the same I did with the other customers, and he would, say -- I would say, How are you doing? And he would say, Fine, how are you doing? And then that would be pretty much the extent of our conversation. I talked to him a little bit more when he applied for the cook's position. We weren't hiring at the time, so I told him we would just keep his application on file. But that was the most that I had spoken to him.

NEVILLE: And did you read his application, was there anything that stood out? What did he say on the application?

FARMER: He filled it out John Allen Muhammad. I can't recall a lot of details. I do recall that he put down the address of the mission. And that's pretty much is -- what I can remember as far as his application goes. NEVILLE: Now, I know you don't know exactly the date, but I just want to get an idea of a time frame of when we're talking about, two weeks ago, three weeks ago? When was this?

FARMER: He filled out the job application last October, November, but he had been coming in the tavern before that, and he continued to come in after that as well.

NEVILLE: Hey, Wally, when you noticed Muhammad, did you notice him carrying anything? I mean, I've read reports where he, at some point, always carried a long black bag.

OYENS: It was a long, dark-colored bag. We have a strict policy here, people checking in their bags at the -- when they come in. We don't want them carrying them around the tavern or whatever, and he usually had to be reminded of that, he wanted to keep it with him. We're accustomed to seeing the people who live at the mission, the ones that do come in here, tend to carry their belongings with them, rather than leaving them at the mission all day. So there wasn't anything that we thought was particularly unusual.

NEVILLE: But now, when you told Muhammad -- reminded him, Listen, you can't carry your bag around the restaurant, what did he say? Did he say, Great, I'll check it in, or...

OYENS: Yes. He always handed it over willingly. I would stick it behind the bar. Never noticed anything -- there wasn't anything to attract attention to the bag, other than the fact that he did usually have to be reminded that he needed to turn it in.

NEVILLE: Hey Lynn, before I let you guys go, when you see someone's picture on the news being a suspected sniper, knowing that you ran into this person, had some sort of contact with the person, what did you think when he saw his picture on the news?

FARMER: We were stunned. We were absolutely stunned. My comment to my other bartender, Millie (ph), was Oh my God, Millie (ph), you served him every day for like a month, and then I called my previous kitchen manager and said, Debbie (ph), turn on the news, you're not going to believe this, and we were stunned. We were all in shock.

NEVILLE: Wow. Lynn Farmer and Wally Oyens, thank you very much for being here with us today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And Elaine and James, I know you're still standing there. You were listening to that conversation. Before I let you go, kind of a little bit of a turn here, several years ago John Muhammad became John Muhammad. He was John Allen Williams before. I just wanted to know what you had been reporting regarding his Muslim ties?

WRIGHT: Well, we're still -- again -- piecing that together. It appears that he converted to Islam -- or to the Nation of Islam in 1985, but he didn't change his name until about a year ago, a little over a year ago. He was, by some accounts, an observant Muslim, by some accounts not. He did drink beer apparently. It's very unclear whether he had really much contact with the Nation of Islam other than occasionally attending a temple here in Seattle. It's been reported that he provided security at the Million Man March. I understand the Nation of Islam says, No, that's not true. They never heard of him. And from what I know of his veracity on other subjects, it's entirely possible he told neighbors that's where he was going and went some place else.

NEVILLE: Hey, Elaine, do you know if authorities are looking into possible other crimes that may have been committed by Muhammad and/or Malvo?

SHANNON: Oh, absolutely. There are still a lot questions about what they were doing in Montgomery and if somebody was with them. They have been, I believe, charged with -- or their going to be in the killing of the one woman and the wounding of the second.

And obviously, they did have some money, maybe not a great deal, but it costs money to travel. So there'll be crimes all across the country that'll be looked at.

NEVILLE: OK, Elaine Shannon and James Wright, thank you both for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.

And up next, do the sniper killings call out for the death penalty, even if one of the accused snipers is a juvenile? We're going to get a rundown of the charges being brought against Muhammad and Malvo after this. And you can you go ahead and call or e-mail to get in on the conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everyone.

Earlier today suspected snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo were in -- indicted in Virginia. CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now to spell out the details.

Hi, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Arthel.

NEVILLE: First of all, what exactly are those charges and how likely is it that we'll see a trial in Virginia?

KOCH: Well, it's quite a long list of charges. And I'll go through them. These were filed in two Virginia counties, Spotsylvainia and Hanover.

The first one, Spotsylvania, they charged the two men with capital murder, that was for the shooting October 11, of Philadelphia Businessman Kenneth Bridges at that gas station.

Then in Hanover County, we had a long list of charges. Attempted murder, conspiracy to commit capital murder, aggravated malicious wounding. Also in both cases they were charged with two counts of use of firearm in the commission of a felony and the commission of a terrorist act. And these were for the shootings on October 4 of that woman outside the Michael's craft store and then October 19 shooting of that gentleman outside the steakhouse in Ashland, Virginia.

Virginia believes it has strong cases. It has had both fatalities and both woundings in that state. However, as we all are aware, Montgomery County jumped out early on Friday, announced its intention to go forward with six capital murder charges. Obviously that caused a great deal of consternation because the other jurisdictions said, Hey wait. We haven't reached any sort of agreement on this.

And -- but Doug Gansler, the Montgomery County state attorney, he said, Well, since we had the six murders -- six of the ten murders in our county, we have more evidence, we can present the best case and we can get a conviction.

But you know, Arthel, the whole debate is who can get the death penalty. And in Maryland, only adults can be put to death.

NEVILLE: Right.

KOCH: The state also has this moratorium on the death penalty which is due to expire this spring. But nonetheless, many people feel having executed only three people since 1976 versus some -- I think it's some 84, I believe, 83 in Virginia. The Virginia's death penalty law's much stronger and they have no exclusion on the execution of minors. Hot debate.

NEVILLE: Exactly. Then I understand there is sort of a situation between the federal and local authorities not being on the same page as to who is going to try these guys. And again, it just is sort of very -- a tangled legal web there.

KOCH: It is. And I think that the federal government, at this point they still have the two men in custody. You know, what do they say? What is the old saying? Possession is nine-tenths of law. And they haven't indicated at this point they're ready to turn them over to any other jurisdiction to be tried.

But again, Virginia is trying to say, We have the stronger death penalty law. We should go ahead first, even though we may not have had the number of deaths Maryland has had. And then there's also Alabama that has filed some charges. It wants to try to bring these men to justice as well.

So a lot of competition now that the men are in custody.

NEVILLE: Kathleen Koch, thank you very much for the update.

And when we come back, you head Kathleen Koch, she told us there's a long list of charges against these two men. OK, so what will prosecutors have to do to make those charges stick? And what will defense attorneys have to do to get those two to walk free? We'll talk about it with our legal guests who are standing by. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

With us now is former federal prosecutor Raoul Lionel Felder and former U.S. attorney Marcellus McRae. Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.

Marcellus, I'm going to go with you first on this one. Seven jurisdictions here, Maryland and Virginia, already filed charges. Who's going to get first crack at these two men in a courtroom?

MARCELLUS MCRAE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: That's a very good question. As you know, both federal and state authorities are pondering that issue now. I think the key thing to focus on is the fact that the two men are presently in federal custody. And ultimately, the federal authorities are going to decide who gets to go first with respect to their criminal cases.

NEVILLE: Does it matter who goes first, Raul?

RAOUL FELDER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it really doesn't matter, but it should be the one who has the best case. Now really the best case ought to be ready by Alabama at this point, because they have been investigating a long time. The first one out of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) happened over there. And it seems -- and they have a death penalty, too, Alabama.

So it seems more sensible to be Alabama. But you know there's a lot of sort of politics in the air, prosecutorial politics, and you never can tell what's going to happen. But he's quite right, the Feds have the suspects now and they're going to make the decision at some point.

NEVILLE: Well then, Marcellus, talk about, if you will, the ramifications involved, depending on where these two men are tried?

MCRAE: Well, I think the ramifications are exactly what Mr. Felder was pointing out. I think the critical issue is that you want to make sure that you have the best case, obviously with the highest likelihood of getting the death penalty if you're a prosecutor. Certainly the other factor to consider is that you want to make sure that while the witnesses are fresh, while their memories are strong, while the evidence is in the best form that it can possibly be, you proceed in that jurisdiction where you're most likely to have a conviction.

NEVILLE: So would that be Maryland, do you think?

MCRAE: Well, the problem with Maryland, as you know, is Maryland has the issue with respect to the moratorium on the death penalty.

NEVILLE: Right, but you were saying in terms of witness, the most -- the fresher memory.

MCRAE: I think that for purposes of talking about fresher memory and the evidence, I think both Virginia and Maryland have fairly compelling claims with respect to that. And I think the other point to consider is not only getting a conviction, but making sure that the conviction is upheld.

There you have to look to Virginia. Since 1976, Virginia has had at lease 86 cases where people have been put to death, as opposed to Maryland, which have had three which have been stayed. And I think you have a higher likelihood with the federal authorities and the courts in Virginia upholding those death penalty convictions.

NEVILLE: Let me go to Florida, where Bob is standing by on the phone. Go ahead, Bob, you're live.

CALLER: Thanks for taking my call. I just want to comment that, from where I sit on the outside, it looks to me like we have a bunch of prosecuting attorneys that are on an ego trip. They all want to be in the limelight to hang these people if they're guilty. And I think they ought to sit down and get their heads together and decide among themselves where's the best place to get a speedy trial and speedy justice in favor of the community as a whole. Thank you.

NEVILLE: Thank you. Raoul, you're shaking your head.

FELDER: Well, you everybody wants to be Chris Darden and Marcia Clark. And everybody has political aspirations. But Mr. McRae had a good point. This is hardball in the big leagues. You have to look at the appellate courts and see what kind of sustaining record they have.

And, of course, Virginia has since '76, 83. The other state has three -- or 86 I think it has. So Virginia looks like the place to go to, because you can get the juvenile in there also.

NEVILLE: Let me get Marvin's (ph) opinion. You are from Maryland, sir.

MARVIN: I'm from Montgomery County, Maryland. I lived through this, I caught the anxiety. You know there has been a lot of people released from prison because of DNA evidence. These peoples had been convicted based on the evidence Based on the numbers, I think it's safe to say that at least 10 percent of the people in this country is executed were innocent. I mean that is worse than what this crime -- the crime that these men...

NEVILLE: And your point regarding this case is?

MARVIN: That they should not be -- that we should not have the death penalty. They should not be executed. They should be put in a maximum security prison with limited life experience and be there for the rest of their life.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, Marvin (ph).

And I have Priscilla (ph) who is standing by on the phone. She's also from Maryland. Go ahead, Priscilla (ph).

CALLER: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I think that it's really terrible that they're going to kill these guys, execute them or whatever. Make them suffer. I mean, you know, that's like (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They don't care about dying. It's obvious from them doing the crimes.

So why just kill them? Make them suffer. The families are suffering, everybody's suffering. And they won't be the ones to suffer. It will be done and over with.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much for calling, Priscilla (ph). Let me get Jason (ph) from New Mexico.

JASON: A question I've got for you guys is why not just do it federal? Because then couldn't all the jurisdictions from all the different states get in under one lump sum?

FELDER: No. As far as I know, the Hobbs Act (ph) is the only federal crime here, which is basically using -- crossing state lines for extortion. They wanted $10 million at some point. But that's not a death penalty case as far as I know.

NEVILLE: Hey, Marcellus, so if one jurisdiction hands down the death penalty, is it a moot point for the others to try these guys?

MCRAE: I don't think it's a moot point. I think the fact is that each one of the jurisdictions that would seek to have these criminal proceedings have constituents, they have families that have lost people. And I think there's a point for these people to be brought to justice in each one of the jurisdictions where's this occurred. I think it would be far from moot.

NEVILLE: Let's get Melissa's (ph) reaction here from Washington, D.C.

MELISSA: I think that we have a larger problem in the federal death penalty and in the state death penalty programs. And I think until that we look at the racial disparities in the death penalty system, we can't arbitrarily pick different people to stay executions and different people to execute.

NEVILLE: OK. Thank you, first of all, for standing up.

And Raoul, I want you to touch on something that Marcellus just said. And that is, in fact, if one jurisdiction hands down the death penalty, then it's not a moot point for the others to try those guys. Could you expound on that for us?

FELDER: No, you can have multiple jurisdictions. One doesn't depend on the other. Although, testimony of one could be used in the other jurisdictions. It's surprising to have three people here who are against the death penalty. Now, you now if we meet it squarely on, just as this whole horrible episode was a downer for the pro-gun people, it had to be an upper for people who want the death penalty.

And yet you have three people who are not in favor of it. I mean if any case cries out for the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate penalty, it's certainly this man. These two people have held five million people hostage, tide up 2,000 members of the law enforcement community, destroyed an economy for many days in areas. This is horrendous, and yet you see people are against the death penalty.

NEVILLE: People against it, like Marvin (ph), who is from Montgomery County, Maryland. Raoul Felder and Marcellus McRae, thank you very much for joining us here today.

FELDER: Thank you.

MCRAE: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK.

Up next, can an old war horse help Democrats hold on to Paul Wellstone's Senate seat in Minnesota? We'll talk about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These continue to be very difficult times for the Democratic family across the state of Minnesota.

NEVILLE: What effect will Senator Paul Wellstone's untimely death have on the balance of power in the Senate? And can this man keep Democrats in the running? The talk continues after this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

Supporters in Minnesota, as well as members of the U.S. Senate, today mourned the death of Senator Paul Wellstone. As you might know, Wellstone along with his wife, daughter and five others, were killed when their small plane crashed on Friday.

Wellstone was in the midst of a very tough re-election campaign, and his untimely death put pressure on state Democrats to come up with a candidate before next week's elections. With just days to go and control of the Senate up for grabs, party leaders called on former Vice President Walter Mondale to help out, as well as one of Mr. Wellstone's sons.

Here to talk about it are Sherry Bebitch Jeffe, a political science professor and senior scholar with the School of Policy Planning and Development and the University of Southern California -- hello.

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: Hi, Arthel.

NEVILLE: And Rich Galen, a political columnist with Mullings.com -- hi, Rich. RICH GALEN, MULLINGS.COM: Hi. I want it noted for the record, it took me 7.5 years to get my undergraduate degree. So this is not going to be fair.

NEVILLE: You know what, Rich, somehow I think you can handle yourself.

BEBITCH JEFFE: I have no doubt, Rich.

NEVILLE: But you know what? I am going to start with Sherri, no favoritism here. Sherri, can Mondale win and is he a good choice?

BEBITCH JEFFE: Well, I think he's just about the only choice right now, Arthel. The other name that was mentioned, Allen Paige (ph), who is a Supreme Court justice, is an interesting choice, but Mondale's got the stature, the experience, the name recognition. And the campaign is a week long.

NEVILLE: And what platform will he stand on in that short amount of time?

BEBITCH JEFFE: I expect he's not going to rely on his own career. He will be the fighter for the little guy. He will be carrying the torch for the Wellstone legacy. And he will work -- he will position himself as carrying on the role of Paul Wellstone for Minnesota. Ironically, he will be running for the seat that he once held, that Mondale once held.

NEVILLE: Yes. That's correct. Rich, of course, you just heard what Sherry said in terms of running on Wellstone's platform and what his legacy and his work. Certainly not...

GALEN: Want me to help?

NEVILLE: No, no, no. I'm just saying, of course, this is a difficult thing. Because you don't want to seem callous, but then the idea of a sympathy vote does come to mind. And I just wanted your thoughts on that.

GALEN: Well, this is completely different from a situation like we had in Missouri...

NEVILLE: Right.

GALEN: ... where the Senators -- or the governor's wife was going to be the stand-in for Mel Carnahan. And in fact, she has been.

In this case, what we have is a situation where Senator Wellstone will not appear on the ballot. Where there will be a sympathy vote to some degree, but you know Norm Coleman used to be a Democrat. He's a pretty well respected guy in his own right. And I think you have to look at Walter Mondale. The fact is that the last time he served in public office was 1980, when he and Jimmy Carter lost to Ronald Reagan.

And so people -- it's been 22 years since anybody in Minnesota has seen Walter Mondale as a political figure. So I'm not so sure -- I think Sherriy's right. The name ID is a big deal here, but it's not clear to me that there will be a huge sweep of support for Walter Mondale.

NEVILLE: Really?

BEBITCH JEFFE: I don't know.

NEVILLE: If you can excuse me, Sherry, I want to take a call now from Minnesota where Jeff (ph) is standing by on the line. Go ahead, Jeff (ph).

CALLER: Yes, hi. Actually, I know where Mondale is half the time. He's at home by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) raking his leaves. But anyhow, I used to deliver pamphlets for this man, Mondale, back in the '80s. And through the years, I've dabbled into being republic into the Democratic issue here...

GALEN: What were you delivering pamphlets for in the '80s.

CALLER: He was running for vice president with Ferraro.

GALEN: No, that was in 1976.

(CROSSTALK)

BEBITCH JEFFE: He ran for president in 1984. Let's not forget that.

GALEN: Yes, OK. Right. And he got 13 votes.

CALLER: Right, I'm sorry. It's 2003 now or 2003 we're in.

NEVILLE: It's OK.

CALLER: But anyhow, what I'm saying is Mondale and Wellstone did get along good as running partners or whatever -- little idea takers. But they do share negative opinions on certain things.

NEVILLE: So, Jeff (ph), do you think Mondale could win?

CALLER: I believe so, and that is partially through the sympathetic vote.

NEVILLE: And your question is?

CALLER: My question is, is what are the -- I've heard through comments and everybody else and when I'm talking with other people here in Minnesota, which there's a guy from me who's devastated. He ran for Wellstone. He worked every day. He's a very hard worker for him.

NEVILLE: Yes.

CALLER: And he's crushed. We gave him flowers and everything.

NEVILLE: Oh, that was very nice.

CALLER: But what I'm trying to get to is what does Mondale's negative opinions and Wellstone -- because they've had controversies where they didn't agree on certain things.

NEVILLE: right.

CALLER: Now what are those things?

NEVILLE: OK. Sherry, I'm not sure if you want to address that. If not, I can move on.

BEBITCH JEFFE: Well, in general, there is a feeling that Mondale is not -- excuse me, the natural inheritor of the Wellstone mantle. He is not quite so liberal on some issues as is Wellstone. And in fact, Newt Gingrich was on television on the chat shows this Sunday pointing out that Mondale chaired a commission which called for the privatization of Social Security, which called for raising the retirement age.

And I think this is the tact that Republicans will take. I don't think Coleman will engage in that attack. It's much too dicey and insensitive.

NEVILLE: Exactly.

BEBITCH JEFFE: But Newt Gingrich and others will go a long way to pointing out where Mondale stood and stands now.

NEVILLE: I want to talk a little bit more after the break, but I do have to take a break right now.

When we come back, moving tributes to Senator Paul Wellstone on Capitol Hill today. CNN's Jonathan Karl is there and we'll bring you that story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

We're talking about the battle for control of the Senate in light of Senator Paul Wellstone's untimely death. Joining us now is CNN's Congressional Correspondent Jonathan Karl.

Good afternoon, Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Arthel.

NEVILLE: If you could tell us the mood in Washington today.

KARL: Well, here at the Capitol, you know it's quiet, because they are only in pro forma session. But even on this quiet day, you look out, the flag is at half staff. And today, they took and they draped Senator Wellstone's desk on the Senate floor in black and put a vase of flowers on it, as a series of senators who were here, the handful that are in town came out and eulogized him.

He is really an incredibly fondly remembered figure, because although many people, especially on the conservative side, disagreed with him philosophically, he was beloved as somebody who really stood up for his belief and cared less about political calculations than about his liberal principles.

And even just among the people here that work, the rank and file, the capital policemen, the people who drive the subways in the capital, the people that work in the cafeterias, I've talked to many of them who just reach out to me because they've seen me covering the story and talk about how sad they are to see Wellstone is gone. Because Wellstone is one of those senators that reached out to the people who didn't have the big titles and the big salaries up here.

He was the kind of person that knew the elevator operators by name, knew the subway operators, took time to talk to them. And he's really missed by everybody up here.

NEVILLE: Jonathan Karl, thank you very much for that perspective. We do have to take a break right now. More on TALKBACK LIVE in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Unfortunately, we are out of time. I want to thank so much to Sherry Bebitch Jeffe and Rich Galen. I really enjoyed talking to both of you. I want to have you back again if you would come back -- good.

I'm Arthel Neville. Join me again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific for more TALKBACK LIVE. Wolf Blitzer is next with a news update.

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