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Encore Presentation: Interview With Williams Family

Aired November 2, 2002 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight -- exclusive, you know him as the alleged sniper, John Allen Muhammad, also known as John Allen Williams. They know him as husband, father and uncle.
Tonight, the sniper suspect's family speaks out. Joining us for their first interview, John Allen Muhammad's first wife, Carol Williams. Their 20-year-old son Lindbergh Williams. He'll explain why he's not showing his face. Also in shadows, Muhammad's nephew, 19-year-old Edward Williams II. Both Muhammad and John Lee Malvo stayed at his house over the summer.

Plus, Carol's current fiance, Vincent Hutchinson, and the family's attorney, Gail Horn Ray (ph).

All exclusive, all next on LARRY KING WEEKEND.

Thanks for joining us. When I sat down for this exclusive interview with the Williams family earlier this week, the story of the sniper suspects, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, was still developing. Who would prosecute first and where? And lots of unanswered questions about the death penalty.

We got some extraordinary insight into the two men now accused in the killing spree that terrorized people in the Washington area last month. And I began with John Muhammad's son, and a very obvious question.


KING: Lin, will you tell us why you are not being seen?

LINDBERGH WILLIAMS, SNIPER SUSPECT'S SON: Because, I always wanted to be in the news, but not for this reason right here, so I rather not have my face shown on television.

KING: Are you worried that people might harm you or something because you're the son of this accused sniper?

L. WILLIAMS: Not so far as harm, but asking many questions that I'd rather not answer.

KING: All right, we'll start with Carol and we'll be including you throughout. And we'll including your phone calls as well.

How did you learn -- how did you first learn, when you read about the sniper and everything, that the suspect was your first husband? CAROL WILLIAMS, SNIPER SUSPECT'S EX-WIFE: I received a phone call.

KING: From?

C. WILLIAMS: From, I think it was the media first, but -- and then I also got a call from the FBI.

KING: When was your first reaction?

C. WILLIAMS: Unbelievable. I just never thought, you know, someone would call me or tell me that, you know, he was accused of killing people.

KING: When the sniper story was going on, and you were reading about it and watching on television as everybody was, did you ever think, ever think, this could have been John?

C. WILLIAMS: No. No, I never would think that.

KING: And the FBI subsequently interviewed you, right?


KING: For any information that you might -- will you be able to be helpful to them?

C. WILLIAMS: I think so.

KING: Was John -- let's go back. How did you meet John?

C. WILLIAMS: We lived in the same neighborhood, and he dated my younger sister.

KING: And got more attracted to the older sister?

C. WILLIAMS: Well, John's brother dated my youngest sister -- Edward. So I met John through Edward.

KING: And what attracted to you him?

C. WILLIAMS: He was just a nice looking young man.

KING: Nice to you?

C. WILLIAMS: Very nice.

KING: What was his occupation when you got married?

C. WILLIAMS: He was a welder.

KING: What is the role, by the way, Gail, you have in this? Is Carol going to need legal representative?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she's been bombarded from the very beginning from all different facets of the media. And they asked me to assist her in any way. I don't think that she -- she definitely has no criminal culpability or any knowledge in that area. She's fully cooperated with the authorities, her entire family has in attempted to assist them so.

KING: And, Lin, what was your reaction when you learned that the suspect was your dad?

L. WILLIAMS: I was very surprised. My mother had called me right when I walked into the door and said, You ready for this? They say they looking for your father. I said, For what? They accusing him of being a sniper. And told me I had to go talk to the FBI immediately. And we went my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) house, and they asked a lot of question, I just told them everything that I knew.

KING: Was your father ever -- did you ever see areas of violence in him?

L. WILLIAMS: At times, but it wasn't -- it wasn't a lot, but when he got angry, you knew he was angry. And I rather not been around him when he's angry because I didn't like that side of him.

KING: Did he ever strike you?

L. WILLIAMS: Not unless I deserved it. Not just out and strike me. Now if I did something and deserved to be chastised for it, then I was chastised. But just to come out and hit me, he never did that.

KING: Did you ever see him threaten other people or show violent tendencies?

L. WILLIAMS: Not so far as threatening anyone. But I have seen a violent side of him.

KING: What about you, Carol? Did he ever hit you?

C. WILLIAMS: No, he's never hit me.

KING: Did you ever see -- did he like guns? Did he talk about killing people?

C. WILLIAMS: He was always fascinated with guns.

KING: Did he have guns?

C. WILLIAMS: No. Not that I know of.

KING: All right, by fascinated, you mean what?

C. WILLIAMS: He always liked guns. I mean, my father is a hunter. He, you know, loved to see his guns. And on one occasion, we had kind of a little problem with a gun.

KING: What do you mean?

C. WILLIAMS: I just really rather not get into it, you know? Not right now, anyway. KING: Were you threatened with a gun?

C. WILLIAMS: Not actually threatened, but just something do with a gun.

KING: But still, you had no idea...


KING: I know you --- we'll get into this summer and John Lee Malvo and everything else. And Lin, was his only son, right?

C. WILLIAMS: No. It's his only son with me.

KING: With you. That's what I mean, with you.

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.

KING: What was the reason -- did you represent her in the divorce.


KING: What was the reason for the divorce?

C. WILLIAMS: He was a man and he liked women.

KING: Oh, he cheated on you?


KING: Couldn't stop?


KING: Was it a contested divorce?

C. WILLIAMS: No, I didn't contest it. He filed for the divorce.

KING: He filed for the divorce? And you got custody of Lin? Or didn't you?

C. WILLIAMS: I got custody of Lin because when he lived in Tacoma, Lin went to visit for a summer, and once he got there, he called me and told me that he actually was going to keep Lin. So I had to fight to get Lin back. And I had to get a lawyer in Tacoma and a lawyer in Baton Rouge to fight my case.

KING: How old was Lin at that point?

C. WILLIAMS: Lin was -- I want to say maybe around 11 or something like that.

KING: What do you remember about that legal -- about being in Tacoma and being kept there, Lin? L. WILLIAMS: Not too much, really, but I can remember him telling me he's not sending me home. That I'm going to stay here with him.

KING: How do you feel about that?

L. WILLIAMS: At the time I really didn't know, because I really didn't know what was going on. Because he kept saying that my mother wasn't treating me right and at the -- a child that age keep hearing something over and over again, he's going to eventually start believing it. So that's what I started believing.

KING: What kind of work was your dad doing in Tacoma?

L. WILLIAMS: When I was down there, he was a part -- he had a business with another friend, with a karate dojo. And he owned his business. He was a mechanic around this time.

KING: Now you had to go to Tacoma for this legal battle, right?

C. WILLIAMS: No. My lawyer represented me. So I didn't have to do anything. he -- the lawyer in Tacoma spoke with the lawyer in Baton Rouge.

KING: And you got the custody back?


KING: And Lin was returned home?

C. WILLIAMS: Lin was returned home. But if it wasn't for his second wife, he wouldn't have been returned because he wanted to take him and just run with him, and his second wife had three other kids. She kind of convinced him into...

KING: Sending him back.

C. WILLIAMS: ... sending him back. But I think after that, their marriage was never the same.

KING: Do you get along with your stepmother, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Very well.

KING: Did you like her?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: But did you realize that she was the one who had your father send you back or was influential in that?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir, I didn't.

KING: So you learned that later?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. KING: How long was Lin, way from you?

C. WILLIAMS: It was just over the summer. Maybe about a month and a half.

KING: When you said he wanted to run with him, what did you mean?

C. WILLIAMS: He was packing bags and taking Lin -- you know, at that time he had became a Muslim and he was just go underground or whatever.

KING: But he wanted to take Lin with him?

C. WILLIAMS: He wanted to take Lin with him, and I guess, you know, maybe just leave his other family behind because I can't, you know, see how you get on the run with, you know, five other people.

KING: When you surprised he became a Muslim?

C. WILLIAMS: No, I wasn't surprised.

KING: He was interested in it when you were married?

C. WILLIAMS: Always interested in something and he just didn't know what it was, but I think that once he got to Tacoma, you know?

KING: Lin, did you become a Muslim?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir but I was taught the religion when I was down there.

KING: But you were never converted.

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: We'll be right back with Carol Williams and Lindbergh Williams, her son. And Gail Horn Ray, their attorney. We'll be joined later by Edward Williams, Jr., the nephew and Vincent Hutchinson, who is currently Carol's fiance. We'll also be including your phone calls. This is LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.


KING: Welcome back. In case you missed it, a 20-count federal complaint was issued today against John Allen Muhammad, charging him as the killer in seven of the sniper attacks, in the case that could result in the death sentence, included in that complaint. Six killings in Montgomery County, one in the District of Columbia. The accomplice, John Lee Malvo, accused accomplice, was not named in the federal complaint, because he is a juvenile.

While the break was on, Carol said something very interesting to me that we might elaborate on. She believes that if Lindbergh, Lin, did not return home from Tacoma to be with her and stayed with him, he would have been in that car with John. Why do you think that? C. WILLIAMS: Because he was a very controlling person, and everything had to go his way, and he controlled Lin, and Lin may not remember, but he wasn't -- he couldn't actually be a child, he had to be military.

KING: Meaning?

C. WILLIAMS: Meaning, everything was military. It was the military -- that he stand up straight, yes sir, no sir, and that's good, but he had to run. He had to exercise. He had to keep fit. He couldn't put -- he couldn't eat anything he wanted to eat.

KING: How did you meet Malvo?

C. WILLIAMS: During the summertime when John...

KING: This summer.


KING: And who did he say Malvo was?

C. WILLIAMS: His son.

KING: From what marriage?

C. WILLIAMS: He didn't actually get into it. He just introduced him as his son.

KING: And you accepted that.


KING: Your sister told us the other night that Malvo called him "father," right? Not "daddy," or anything.

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, "father."

KING: And, Lin, so you accepted Malvo as your step-brother?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes sir. I know what kind of man my dad was, I know he had children everywhere, so when he said this is -- this is your brother, I just took it in stride.

KING: How did you get along with him, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: We got along -- we got along all right. He was very respectful towards all my relatives, and when it came to my little cousins and my little brother, he would go outside play with them, read them books. He was a very cool person.

KING: Courteous?

L. WILLIAMS: Very courteous.

KING: Nothing strange about him? L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did you ever find out who his mother was, or ever ask?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: What did you think of Malvo, Carol?

C. WILLIAMS: I think that Malvo was a very respectable child. He was, Yes ma'am, No ma'am. Like Lin said, he played with the kids. He enjoyed sitting down reading. My little cousin -- my little niece Latoya (ph), he just -- he just fell in love with her. He just loved talking to her. He just loved sitting down, having conversations. I think he just wanted somebody to listen to him.

KING: What were they doing there this summer?

C. WILLIAMS: Visiting.

KING: Just visiting. But your sister said she never saw an automobile.


KING: You didn't either?

C. WILLIAMS: Always walking.

KING: Did you ever see a car, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did they say how they got there?

L. WILLIAMS: They said they walked from the bus station.

KING: Oh, they took a bus?

L. WILLIAMS: That's what they told us.

KING: And the bus was from where?

L. WILLIAMS: They didn't say.

KING: So you never saw a Caprice, or any kind of vehicle?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did you ever see your dad with a rifle or a gun?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did he ever talk about rifles or guns?

L. WILLIAMS: Not really, not around me.

KING: All right. Did you ever see Malvo refer to anything like violence or guns or anything?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: So this, Carol, has got to boggle you. I mean, just -- must -- how do you account for it? Let's say -- I mean, he is a suspect. Let's say he did do this. How in your own mind do you rationalize it? How do explain it to yourself, where did this come from?

C. WILLIAMS: I would say from his childhood. From -- from his childhood, maybe from losing his kids. I mean, the courts gave me my child back. The courts gave his second wife -- their kids back. And just with -- he always loved kids. Always. He always loved kids, and I think with just...

KING: Do you think he snapped?

C. WILLIAMS: Yes. A bad childhood and -- losing his kids, his marriages. I think he just snapped.

KING: He had a bad childhood himself?

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, he had a terrible childhood.

KING: Terrible in what way?

C. WILLIAMS: He was just mistreated as a child.

KING: By parents?

C. WILLIAMS: No. His parents -- by his relatives. His mother died and...

KING: He was beaten?

C. WILLIAMS: Not beaten. I wouldn't say beaten. Just -- just -- just not given things that they should have been given, treated like other kids should have been treated.

KING: Not loved?


KING: But nothing about him spelled violence, right? Didn't hit you, didn't hit kids?


KING: He may have hit you, Lin, but it was only when you thought you deserved it, right?


KING: So you never saw him shoot a gun, fire a weapon, right? He loved kids, yet he is accused of shooting a kid.


KING: Does that surprise you?

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, that surprises me.

KING: How do you feel about the victims?

C. WILLIAMS: I just have sympathy for them because I -- I can't imagine what they are going through. So I just pray for them, and hope and pray that, you know, they find some kind of way to get through this.

KING: Lin, how do you feel?

L. WILLIAMS: I feel terrible. First of all, I would like to apologize to all of the victims, even though I know I can't do anything to change it, and I know what he did was wrong. I just want to say I am sorry, because it was just uncalled for. No matter what he was going through and how terrible it was, it does not give you the right to go shoot innocent people.

KING: Back to your husband. He had an anger problem, did he not? Would you say he had an anger problem?

C. WILLIAMS: At times. He wasn't just always angry. Something had to happen to make him angry.

KING: But whatever set him off, set him off?


KING: He was in the National Guard, right?


KING: Was he a good soldier?

C. WILLIAMS: Excellent soldier. Like I said, he was always military.

KING: Gail (ph), what do you make of this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it is really, really puzzling. It's an unusual case, for somebody to randomly go out and shoot people for no reason. Something, I would think, had to be going on to cause that to happen, because there was no note that he was part of any organization. No specific goal in mind. The notes from -- that were left apparently were rambling type of notes.

KING: Yes. Did he say anything, Lin, this summer, to lend you to think that he was on the verge of doing something nutty?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir. Nothing.

KING: When he left this summer, where did he say they were going? L. WILLIAMS: He didn't say. He just said he was leaving the next day, and I didn't see him.

KING: And he walked off?

L. WILLIAMS: I didn't see him at all. I just seen him -- I say twice when I was down there, yes, twice.

KING: You saw more of Malvo?

L. WILLIAMS: I seen him twice. When I seen one, I seen the other one.

KING: That whole summer, while he was there a lot of time, you only spent two times with him?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: And you liked Malvo?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: And you noticed no specific change in your father?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir. It's probably because I was never around him to see how is he really like. So when I seen him, I just accepted that's the way that he's supposed to be. That's the way he act. So I didn't question anything.

KING: We'll be right back with more. We'll include phone calls. We're going to meet other members of the contingent, Edward Williams Jr., the nephew, and Vincent Hutchinson, the current fiance of Carol, who also met John Muhammad on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Don't go away.



KING: Members of the panel will join us. Was -- he was always health and fitness conscious, right, Carol?


KING: He was kind a nut in that regard, right?


KING: Took care of himself, watched what he ate?


KING: Were you surprised that he -- you weren't surprised he converted to Muslim..


KING: Were surprised he changed his name?


KING: Were you surprised, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did he talk to you about his new faith?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. When I went down for the summer, I learned a let about the religion.

KING: Were you attracted to it?

L. WILLIAMS: It was interesting. It was very interesting.

KING: Did he ever talk about spending time in the Caribbean, where I guess he was supposed to have met Malvo?


KING: I am sorry, for both of you. Carol, no?


KING: Did he ever talk to you about the Caribbean?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir. He talked to me at one time, when we conversated on the phone, he said that is why where he was staying, but he didn't say nothing about Malvo.

KING: Did he ever talk, Carol, ever about 9/11?

C. WILLIAMS: No, because he was never around me. I only saw him that -- once, when he came down here.

KING: In the summer?

C. WILLIAMS: In the summer.

KING: So, when 9/11, you weren't talking to him?


KING: Did he ever talk about Afghanistan?

C. WILLIAMS: I haven't seen him for over 10 years, no.

KING: So he didn't talk about politics or Muslims versus Christianity or anything like that?


KING: What did you talk about? C. WILLIAMS: I didn't talk to him. I hadn't talked to John in 10 years.

KING: So when you saw him this summer, you just was -- everyday kind of how are you talk.

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, just basically Lin.

KING: Talked about Lin? How he was doing?

Lin, what did you talk about? What did you talk about with Malvo?

L. WILLIAMS: Not much really. He just told me at times he was -- he was having problems with his mother. And that's how he came to stay with his father. That's what he told me.

KING: Did he like his father a lot?

L. WILLIAMS: From what I seen, yes.

KING: Let's take a call. Morgantown, North Carolina, hello.

CALLER: Hello.


CALLER: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Go ahead.

CALLER: Yes, I just wanted to say what an awesome response by Lin here just a moment ago, apologizing for his dad. That young man surely earned great respect by many of us here in America, and our love and prayers, I'm sure, for this family, are extended and basically -- especially all of the innocent victims involved, and I have three quick questions...


CALLER: I'll make them brief. No. 1, twofold question to both individuals here. Your feelings for the accused here, being an ex- spouse and being a dad, what are your feelings towards him before this situation? and then, as opposed to maybe now, you know, sympathetic or...

KING: And then second question? What was the second question?

CALLER: The second question, what are their thoughts on the death penalty for -- for the situation?

KING: OK, two good questions. What were your feelings before this incident for your ex-husband?

C. WILLIAMS: I had no feelings.

KING: No love anymore?


KING: Now, what feelings do you have?

C. WILLIAMS: I guess I feel sorry for him.

KING: Sorry for him?

C. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.

KING: Lin, before and after?

L. WILLIAMS: Before, I just know him as daddy.

There was no really feelings because he was never there for feelings to be grown.

And now it's -- to be honest, it's the same. Nothing has changed.

KING: You feel terrible for the victims...

L. WILLIAMS: I feel terrible for the victims but far as him, it's the same because he was never there. I can't care for someone that's never there.

KING: He wasn't there for you then, he's not there for you now?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: Feelings about the death penalty, carol?

C. WILLIAMS: My feelings are I really don't know. I mean, if you can sit back in a car and kill someone, I just don't want to judge. I just feel like, you know...

KING: Are you saying in some cases they might deserve to die?

C. WILLIAMS: If he sits in a car and shot innocent people, if they find him guilty for that, yes.

KING: Yes. And Lin, he's your dad. How do you feel?

L. WILLIAMS: Even though he is my father, in my eyes, you reap what you sow. If you did it -- you was man to enough to do it, you are man enough to pay the consequences.

KING: So you would favor the death penalty if he did it and if he's convicted?

L. WILLIAMS: If he's convicted and that's the law, he has to deal with it.

KING: Modesto, California, hello.

CALLER: Hello?

KING: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hello?

KING: Go ahead.

CALLER: Hello, Larry?

KING: Yes.

CALLER: Hi. Hi, Larry. Hi, family. Part of my question was already answered, but if -- if he is found guilty and doesn't get the death penalty, are they going to feel satisfied with that or if he gets the death penalty in another part of the state -- how are..

KING: I don't understand the question. You mean, if he gets life in prison, would that change your feelings at all about this. I don't understand the question.

C. WILLIAMS: If he gets life -- I don't understand it either. What does she mean?

KING: I don't understand it. I don't get it.

Lin, would you want to go visit him?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. I would just like to sit down and talk to him and see what is going on inside his head. Just, what was he thinking - if he did it, what was he thinking while he was doing it? What was going through his mind?

KING: Because you're still -- you wouldn't go to visit him.


KING: You're an ex-wife. But you can -- and as you're his son, you -- I guess, when they set these things up, you can go see him.

L. WILLIAMS: I wouldn't mind. I just -- I would just like to know, what was he thinking. And after he tell me that, I would like to know, did he persuade Malvo to do this -- just -- what was really going on?

KING: You're shocked Malvo is part of this, aren't you, too?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, because the impression he gave me was he was quiet. See, I can't see Malvo doing anything like this. Anything.

KING: Carol, the Malvo you met, you feel the same way?

C. WILLIAMS: I feel the same way.

KING: We're going to take a break, and when we come back, Edward Williams Jr., the nephew of the sniper suspect, the nephew of the sniper suspect John Muhammad will join us. He also saw them this summer.

And Vincent Hutchinson, who is fiance of Carol, who always me John Muhammad. We'll also be including more phone calls.

And tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, Heather Mills will be our special guest. She's the wife of Paul McCartney.

Don't go away.


KING: Let's meet our entire group of guests now.

They are Carol Williams the first weapon of sniper suspect John Muhammad. He was known as John Williams when they were married. She talked with John this summer and also talked with the other sniper suspect, John Lee Malvo. This is her first interview since both men were arrested last week.

Lindbergh Williams, Lin is the son Carol and John, the man now known as John Muhammad. This is his first interview since his father was arrested in connection with the sniper shootings. He is 20 years old.

We are now joined by Edward Williams Jr. He's the nephew of John Muhammad. John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo stayed at Edwards' parent's home this summer in Baton Rouge, and also his first interview.

Vincent Hutchinson also joins us. He's the fiance of Carol Williams and he knows John Muhammad.

And remaining with us is Gail Horn Ray, the attorney for the family.

Vincent, how -- did you meet John this summer?

VINCENT HUTCHINSON, SNIPER SUSPECT'S EX-WIFE'S FIANCE: Fortunately, no. Not this summer I didn't.

KING: When did you meet him?

HUTCHINSON: I met him on two occasions throughout our 18 years of being together.

KING: You two have been together 18 years?

C. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.

KING: Not married but together 18 years?


KING: What were those meetings like?

KING: Pretty much like any normal meeting. I mean, I would greet him as her ex-husband and you know, it's just like -- it's mutual respect there.

KING: You were raising his son too, right?


KING: Did you get along very well with Lin?

HUTCHINSON: Oh, correct. Yes, sir.

KING: What did you think of John Muhammad?

HUTCHINSON: I really wasn't opinionated by him, because I really didn't know him to judge opinion about him. And, you know, I really didn't think too much of it.

KING: You were equally shocked, then, when you heard?

HUTCHINSON: Oh, most definitely.

KING: And Edward, what were your thoughts about your uncle this summer?

EDWARD WILLIAMS JR., SNIPER SUSPECT'S NEPHEW: He's a great guy. I looked up to him all of the time.

KING: You liked him a lot?

E. WILLIAMS: I loved him.

KING: Still love him?

E. WILLIAMS: I still do.

KING: Shocked by all this?

E. WILLIAMS: Very shocked.

KING: Now, here's -- explain how you are the nephew. Your father is his brother?

E. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. And my mother is my aunt's sister. That's Carol.

KING: I see. So this is a family that's intertwined here, right?


KING: OK. And Ed, how old are you?


KING: Where did you hear of this?

E. WILLIAMS: From my mother. I was trying to go to sleep in my room, and my mother told my sister that my uncle might be the sniper and I had to find out so I went to go ask her.

KING: Why do you choose to be in darkness?

E. WILLIAMS: I just choose not to let anybody who I am. I won't let anybody see my face.

KING: Are you ashamed of what happened?

E. WILLIAMS: Not exactly ashamed of what happened. But just very shocked.

KING: Did you meet Malvo?

E. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: What did you think of him?

E. WILLIAMS: He's a very cool person. He's just like a brother to me.

KING: He was very friendly to you?

E. WILLIAMS; Very friendly.

KING: Did you meet him, Vince?

HUTCHINSON: No sir, I didn't meet him.

KING: You didn't meet him?

E. WILLIAMS: No, I didn't meet Malvo.

KING: The general opinion here is everyone liked Malvo.

You liked him right, Carol?


KING: And you liked him right, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: Edward, you really liked him?

E. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: So would you -- would you make it, Lin, that your father just really controlled Malvo? If your father is as charged, the killer in this, do you think he just controlled Malvo?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. He's a very good manipulator. He can talk very well. And if you let him inside of your head, he will take control over your head.

KING: You agree with Vince? HUTCHINSON: Yes, well, the only -- the only downside of all of this here is that the -- the only problem they ever had was the time that, you know, we allowed Lin to go and stay with him and then we --

KING: And tried keep him?

HUTCHINSON: And we just -- you know, and this here went on, and went on and it was so stressful. And if, you know, if it wasn't from the family members, her mother and sisters, for the support that we got to try to get Lin back, like Lin said earlier, he was a lot too young to remember this.

But it wasn't nothing nice because, I mean, you know, we were accused of doing just crazy crazy things to Lin, which was untrue. And to this day, like I said, if it wasn't from her mother and the family members, you know, being there by our side and helping us through this here, we don't know what would have happened.

KING: Were you -- are you surprised, Carol, of how much Ed feels for his uncle?


KING: And still feels for his uncle?


KING: Ed, if the charges are true, wouldn't that change how you feel?

E. WILLIAMS: No, it really wouldn't. I would still love him for who he was. That would never change.

KING: Would you want to go see him?

E. WILLIAMS: I would love to see him.

KING: Do you have any thoughts -- this is for everybody -- any thoughts as to what you think happened to your uncle?

E. WILLIAMS: I have no idea what happened.

KING: Lin, what do you think happened to your father?

L. WILLIAMS: I think over the years of so much stuff, he just snapped. The loss of his children, the military, that's stressful enough on its own, being in the war. You don't know if he had any counseling when he got out of the war. Was he just put back on the streets, he just snapped.

KING: Did he talk about the war much?

L. WILLIAMS: He really didn't talk about the war much, but at times, when I was still in Washington, I don't what it's called, but he just jump up out of sleep for no reason and screamed.

Or if somebody slam a door too hard, he'll jump. Little things that just spooked him.

KING: No kidding? Anything would -- that was since coming home from the Gulf War?

L. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

KING: Do you notice anything like that, Ed?

E. WILLIAMS: There's only one time I can recall that when I was playing the game on the computer, the volume was up a little too loud, and he heard a gunshot, he jumped up.

And I said, It's only the computer. And he started -- that people were still shooting -- the television I lived in (ph).

KING: Did you ever see him have any connections with guns, Ed?

E. WILLIAMS: I don't understand the question.

KING: Did you ever see him hold a gun? Talk about guns, et cetera?

E. WILLIAMS: Not -- no, sir.

KING: In other words, he didn't say, Boy, that's a great looking rifle I saw at the store the other day?

E. WILLIAMS: no, sir.

KING: Did you ever, Vincent, have any connection with him and weapons?

HUTCHINSON: No, only that the family told me. That he was fascinated with guns. And just a lot of things that we care not to collaborate on as of this moment.

KING: Madisonville, Kentucky -- hello.

CALLER: Hello. Lin, if you could say one thing to your father right now, what would it be and why?

L. WILLIAMS: What were you thinking? That's all I really want to know: what were you thinking? Why did you do what you did? If you did this, why did you do it? That's the only question I really want to know.

KING: And this is the answer that everyone is asking, right, Carol? You must ask this every day.


KING: Why? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you knew him intimately?


KING: You were married to him. C. WILLIAMS: Yes.

KING: You have his child?


KING: What you must -- what are you going through?

C. WILLIAMS: Right now I'm not sleeping. I can't sleep because I feel that if it's actually him and they hadn't caught him, I would have been in the number. I would have been one of the ones that he'd have killed.

KING: You think he would have been after you?


KING: Because?

C. WILLIAMS: Because I was one of the -- I got my child. I have sole custody of Lin.

KING: You hurt him? So if it comes up in revenge factor...

C. WILLIAMS: I hurt him. I think he was in Maryland for his second wife, and he would have came on around, and you know...

KING: You think he would have killed her too?


KING: She was in Maryland? Sometimes.

C. WILLIAMS: You know, not really sure but somewhere.

KING: Gail, do you buy any of this? Do you think that the family had reason to be fearful?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that they definitely did. Anybody who would take the kind of action that he took, certainly they need to be concerned and worried. He lost his mind probably -- his son with Carol. I understand that maybe he ran off with two -- several of the children from the second marriage, and those children were taken back. And then comes up with the child that was not, apparently taken in and try to make his son. So this may have had a large effect on him.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more, don't go away.



JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I consider the matters charged in the federal indictment today to be atrocities. They're tragedies. They are very serious. And it's important that we have available the very most serious penalties in a setting like this and we want to be able to make sure that the -- the system of justice operates to effectively to make sure that the most serious penalties are available to address very serious crimes like this.


KING: Now, Carol tells me during the break that the morning she learned that she -- the morning that she learned that her ex-husband was arrested in connection with -- or was wanted in connection this, and apprehended, you got a death threat.

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, I received a death threat at my job Wednesday morning around 10:15. I didn't know that John was a suspect then. I found out that night about 9:30.

KING: How was the death threat delivered?

C. WILLIAMS: By telephone.

KING: And what was said?

C. WILLIAMS: When I answered the phone, the gentleman said, Good morning. I said, Good morning. How you doing? And he start to say some words that I can't say on TV, and told me that he was going to kill me.

KING: Who did you think it was?

C. WILLIAMS: I had no idea. I just thought it was a crank call.

KING: Voice sound familiar?


KING: So it wasn't John?

C. WILLIAMS: I don't know who it was.

KING: It could have been John?

C. WILLIAMS: It could have been, but I just don't know. And that is what scares me.

KING: Did you report it?

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, we called authorities.

KING: It gets curiouser and curiouser.

Athens, Georgia -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, I have a question for the family. I was wondering -- I know that you said that you have gotten threats, but do you think that it probably could be the Nation of Islam? And also to the nephew, have you converted over, and why do you look so highly up to your uncle?


E. WILLIAMS: No, I have not converted. I look up to him because he's one of my role models in the family. He's one of the ones that -- well, I wanted to go into the military. He's one of the ones that gave me the reasons to go to the military. Other than my father and my other uncle.

KING: And so even if these things are true, you still continue to hold him in high regard?

E. WILLIAMS: I always will.

KING: So then you think something snapped in him? You think he went crazy? If he did it.

E. WILLIAMS: I don't think he went crazy, and I don't really think he did it.

KING: You may be in denial maybe?

E. WILLIAMS: No, really not. That's how much I look up to my uncle. I don't think that he would do that kind of stuff to anybody, to anyone. I don't think he would -- not even Lee would do that to anyone. I just don't think they would do that to anyone.

KING: To Tampa, Florida -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, my question for the panel and for the family is, have they had any offers related to tabloids concerning the story of not only themselves but also Mr. Muhammad himself?

KING: Carol? Gail?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There have been all kinds of offers, but I don't think that they want to discuss any of that.

KING: People have been out offering them, tell your the story.

HUTCHINSON: This is what we definitely want to get out. We give out the most deepest sympathy to the family members and to the friends who've lost someone in this tragic incident. And we're not here to gain any, you know, prestige in this, not at all. We're only here just to tell the truth. And that's what it's at. It's not about the media, and it's not about all of this here. It's about just telling the truth and getting it out. And I mean, it's just so much -- and, Mr. King, there is not enough time within this hour for the truth to really be told -- be told.

KING: You mean there's things you're not saying tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think they are saying that -- this probably is a long story, because it starts from so long ago, and covers such a long period of time. It is not that they are not saying things, but because it is so complicated in their minds, and with so many different issues and terms that it couldn't be told in one hour.


HUTCHINSON: I could only speak in terms of how he was when I met the young man. I mean, he greeted me as I man, and so forth, and he understood the fact that whatever they had in their past was so far gone, but now it affects my family. I mean, you know, Lin -- I have been a part of his life, and I consider him as my son, ever since he was at the age of 3.

So it's like she said. I mean, right now, it's hard for her to sleep because of the phone calls that she received. We are not saying that it was him. We don't know who it was. But -- and I could imagine -- Lin is doing great. He is holding up...

KING: Lin, how do you explain how well you are doing?


KING: You are doing pretty good.

L. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

KING: I mean, how do you explain it?

L. WILLIAMS: I don't know. It just -- when I first heard it, it didn't bother me. Of course, I didn't believe it, I had to turn the television on myself to see the picture, but once I seen that, it was just, like, it happened. I feel for the families, but it happened, and I just got to deal with it.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Carol Williams and Lin Williams and Edward Williams, Jr., and Vincent Hutchinson, and the attorney Gail Horn Ray (ph). Don't go away.


JIM WYDA, FEDERAL PUBLIC DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At this point, we still have not heard any evidence in a court of law against Mr. Muhammad. We know a few things at this point. Mr. Muhammad is a 41- year-old father. He was an American who served in the Persian Gulf. He was honorably discharged from the United States military. He has never been convicted of another crime at any time, anywhere.



KING: Edward, we are told that Malvo sent a letter to your sister, in which he appeared to be crying for help. Is that true?

E. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. That is correct.

KING: OK. Did it make it appear like he was in a trapped situation?

E. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Not just the note made it seem like he was in a trapped situation, but when I spoke to him several times, he was actually calling for help, but I just didn't notice it at the time.

KING: Did you read the letter, Carol?


KING: Did it look like -- I know you don't want to quote from it, but did it look like a cry for help?

C. WILLIAMS: It was a cry for help. I know it was.

KING: He was asking for what?

C. WILLIAMS: He was asking for -- to just not be in a situation that he was in.

KING: He was like, Get me out of this?


KING: But you didn't take any action -- well, he was gone, right?

C. WILLIAMS: Yes, I only seen him once.

KING: And then he left. Edward, what did your sister do with the letter? What did she think of it? Gail, do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think the...

KING: The authorities...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the authorities have possession of the letter at this time, so...

KING: But have you seen it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not seen it.

KING: But you would all call it a cry for help. Have you seen it, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: I have seen it, but I really couldn't read it because the handwriting was so bad, but the parts I did see, it was a loud cry for help that nobody heard -- that nobody heard.

KING: All right. One more quick call. Montreal -- quickly, hello.

CALLER: Yes, hello, Mr. King.


CALLER: I have a question for the family. Through the time periods in which either Muhammad or Malvo were in their life, did they ever see Tarot cards in their possession?

KING: Tarot cards, did you ever see them?


KING: Did you ever see them, Lin?

L. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Edward?

E. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Did he ever say anything about Tarot cards?

E. WILLIAMS: No, sir.

KING: Thank you all very much. I know this has not been easy, I appreciate your coming.

We thank Carol Williams and her son Lindbergh Williams, and Edward Williams Jr., the nephew, and Vincent Hutchinson, who is the fiance of Carol, and of course, the attorney, Gail Horn Ray (ph).


KING: What a great hour of television.

Tomorrow night, Ed and Lois Smart, the parents of Elizabeth Smart, the Utah girl who was kidnapped from her bedroom last June. This Sunday marks her 15th birthday.

Also joining us, the rock legend, Rod Stewart, who'll even sing for us.

Thanks for joining us and good night.


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