CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Panel Discussion of Ryder Verdict
Aired November 6, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find Winona Ryder guilty...
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LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, actress Winona Ryder guilty of two felonies, grand theft and vandalism. Convicted today by a jury of her peers, including one Hollywood movie mogul. We'll take a look inside with those who were there for this sensational trial, including Linda Grasso, who covered it for the E! Television Network, Linda Deutsch of the Associated Press, and Ross McLaughlin of Court TV's "Celebrity Justice."
Also with us, in San Francisco, Marc Klaas, a personal friend of Winona Ryder. In New York, top jury consultant, Jo Ellan Dimitrius. In LA, to give us insight into what the jury was thinking, an alternate juror in the Ryder trial, Sherman Pore. And in Boston, Harvard trained psychiatrist Dr. Marcus Goldman, author of "Kleptomania, the Compulsion to Steal." They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
In case you missed it, Winona Ryder was found guilty of vandalism and felony grand theft and not guilty of second degree commercial burglary. Were you surprised Jo Ellan?
JO ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY CONSULTANT: Oh, I was very surprised. I think it was very interesting to know the composition of the jury and knowing that, in addition to Peter Guber, who was the chief of the studios that produced three of Winona's pictures, that there were three other individuals that were in the entertainment industry. And, clearly, I think the defense thought that they would very much favor Winona, but obviously they did not.
KING: So you were surprised at the guilty on two counts?
DIMITRIUS: I really was surprised. I think everybody was certainly waiting to hear about the mystery director that allegedly told her to take on this role. And from what I understand, apparently, he or she never materialized.
KING: Now, Marc Klaas you're a friend of Winona's. You -- in fact, you attended the first day of the trial, didn't you?
MARC KLAAS, FRIEND OF WINONA RYDER: Yes, that's exactly right, Larry. I attended the trial and basically supported Winona, simply because she is my friend and because of what she did for my family all those years ago when my daughter was kidnapped.
And I would like to remind your watching, viewing public that, despite the fact that she's just been convicted of these two felonies, this is a young woman who, in an unsolicited act of benevolence, offered up to $1 million of her own money for the safe return of my daughter. And that's an act...
KING: Were you...
KLAAS: I believe that's an act that's kind of unprecedented in the entertainment industry.
KING: Were you surprised at the verdict?
KLAAS: I was surprised and very saddened by it, yes.
KING: All right. You were there, Linda, every day?
LINDA GRASSO, E! NEWS LIVE CORRESPONDENT: I was.
I was actually surprised that she wasn't found guilty on all three counts. I thought the prosecution had a much stronger case. I thought the defense made promises that, you know, were -- ended up just being dust kicked in our face.
KING: Promises in the opening argument that never...
GRASSO: Oh, yes. Promises that there was a huge conspiracy going on between Saks officials, Saks security guards and I guess what ended up being the Beverly Hills Police Department. Promises that we'd see that these people were in collusion and that they wanted to benefit or gain from being connected to the case. I just thought some of the defense arguments were actually laughable.
KING: So you were surprised that it wasn't a three-way guilty.
GRASSO: I thought it was.
KING: Linda Deutsch.
LINDA DEUTSCH, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Well, Larry, you know, I'm never surprised at what a jury does. I think you can never predict what they do. And usually...
KING: So you're never surprised and always surprised?
DEUTSCH: That's right, exactly. And what you find, if you cover enough trials, is that juries usually do the right thing. And it's...
KING: You think they did the right thing today?
DEUTSCH: It will be seen when we see the sentencing, if they did the right thing.
KING: How will sentencing help?
DEUTSCH: I would like very much to hear from Winona Ryder about what her take on this is.
KING: but if she doesn't speak -- if she speaks at her sentencing and says she did it, then she put the court through a lot of travail here by going through a trial.
DEUTSCH: That's true, but I doubt if she will do that.
KING: Do you think she will speak?
DEUTSCH: I think she will probably speak, yes.
KING: Ross, what was your reaction to the verdict?
ROSS MCLAUGHLIN, COURT TV: Well, I thought they were going to come back and convict on three charges. I did not think she was going to be acquitted on burglary. And when they did come back and acquit her on burglary, I thought to myself and I reexamined the evidence in my mind. I thought, you know, you're right. There was really no intent shown or no intent proven by the prosecution that she went in there to steal because...
KING: That's what burglary is, intent to commit.
MCLAUGHLIN: Intent to commit burglary, intent to go in with the intent of stealing. And she had a bag. They made much about the bag she went in with, the O'Lilly (ph) shopping bag, the garment bag that she carried, Saks shopping bag and that she used these to stuff merchandise into.
And they made the insinuation that she was going to use the O'Lilly (ph) bag to stock merchandise, and there was no O'Lilly (ph) store in Beverly Hills.
Well, it turns out there was an O'Lilly (ph) store just a short block away. So I think the jury also needed to be convinced that those scissors that came out of her pocket were there for the intent of cutting off sensor tags. And I don't think they were convinced that they were there for that purpose. Women carry things in their purses.
KING: The prosecution has said, Jo Ellan, pretty much implied that they're not interested in sending her away to prison, but getting her help. Do you think she'll get a lighter sentence with help included?
DIMITRIUS: Well, I would certainly hope so. It would appear that she has been made a scapegoat for all celebrities. And I'm sure there are a lot of people around the country that are saying, you know, finally LA convicts a celebrity.
But I would -- I certainly would hope that, in recognition of what I think the disease is that she has, that the judge takes that into consideration in what her ultimate sentence would be. KING: Marc Klaas, did she ever tell you anything in connection with this charge? Did she ever speak to you about it?
KLAAS: Yes, Larry. She told me that she didn't do it. And I absolutely believe that, in her mind, she had no intent of stealing this stuff.
You know, the -- I believe that, although the prosecution is saying all of these nice things now and trying to put a good light on it, they were absolutely and totally after a felony prosecution in this case. They don't want to get Winona help. They want to put a feather in their cap. And I hope they're proud of themselves for having done so.
KING: Normally, Marc Klaas is rather pro prosecution. So it's surprising to hear you say that. Obviously, you really feel close to her.
KLAAS: Well, I just feel so badly that they would go after somebody like that. And I won't, for a moment, suggest that I believe that she did this, but let's just say for a moment that she did. How is anybody best served by prosecuting he for four felonies and ultimately dropping it down to three, when if, in fact, as they say, they want to help her, they could have pursued that goal in many different ways, as they generally do in these kinds of cases. I don't know that there's ever been a shoplifting case that has been prosecuted like this in LA.
KING: Linda Grasso, why didn't the executives just call her into the office, as they might do with a lot of people, and say, ma'am, do you have a credit card? Why press her?
GRASSO: Well, I mean she had a story, according to them. And four people testified she said, hey, you know what, I'm so sorry I did this. I was just researching for a role. First she said, I think, it was "Shop Girl," then she allegedly said it was "Why Chad" (ph).
KING: Why didn't they believe that story, if she was going to pay for it?
GRASSO: Well, I mean -- but she -- that's not the argument, though, that Marc was saying. He was saying, she did not say, oh, my gosh! I'm so sorry! I have a problem. You know what? I need help. I am so sorry. I mean she had a whole story. So had she come in and said, I made a huge mistake. I have a problem. I need help. That's different than sort of having a defense right at the get go.
KING: Do you think it was held against her, Linda Deutsch, that she didn't testify? It's not supposed to be held against you.
DEUTSCH: No, I don't think so. But I would say it was never brought up in this trial that she had any kind of a problem. There has been no testimony about past bad acts. There apparently was a hearing on it in secret, which we did not get to attend, and we haven't seen the transcript. But there was no attempt to prove that she was a kleptomaniac. The only thing they were trying to prove was that she took this specific merchandise.
KING: Ross, was the defense then up against it here?
MCLAUGHLIN: I think so. And I think that earlier on what the defense had said that she had been hammered by the DA's office. "Celebrity Justice," I did the investigation. We looked at felony arrest records from last year. We looked at all shoplifters in LA County. No one had the book thrown at them like Winona Ryder did.
KING: So you think they were out after her?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I think that they did through every possible charge they could through at her. And the former DA, Ira Reiner had gone on record with us saying that when it's a celebrity, it's taken off the assembly line. And every charged that can appropriately be filed will be filed.
And that's what happened here. Statistically, we proved it. Out of 5,000 cases, no one, no shoplifter was treated as harshly as Winona Ryder.
KING: So a celebrity doesn't get a break in a Saks Fifth Avenue, which you would -- the average person I think they do.
MCLAUGHLIN: There's no celebrity discount at Saks.
KING: We'll be right back. And when we come back, an alternate juror will join us. Don't go away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Winona Ryder, not guilty of the crime of second degree commercial burglary.
We, the jury, find the defendant, Winona Ryder, guilty of the crime of vandalism over $400 in damage.
We, the jury, find the defendant, Winona Ryder, guilty of the crime of grand theft of personal property in violation...
WINONA RYDER, ACTRESS: Have you ever confused a dream with life? Or stolen something when you have the cash? Have you ever been blue?
KING: That's a scene from the movie "Girl Interrupted" produced by Winona Ryder, in which she starred, a very, of course, talented lady.
We also mentioned at the start that Ross McLaughlin's program, "Celebrity Justice," seen daily, is a Court TV program. It is not. It is an independent program produced through Telepictures.
We welcome now to LARRY KING LIVE Sherman Pore. He was an alternate juror in the Winona Ryder case. He's a semi-retired maintenance mechanic and inventor as well.
What was it like sitting there every day?
SHERMAN PORE, ALTERNATE JUROR, WINONA RYDER TRIAL: Interesting, Very interesting and very riveting.
KING: Now, they don't call you into the jury room once the trial goes to the jury, right? You're dismissed?
PORE: Right. I'm not dismissed. I wait in the jury room downstairs.
KING: In case someone gets sick or something.
PORE: Yes, in case somebody gets sick.
KING: What's your read on the verdict, Sherman?
PORE: The prosecution, I think, gave a great presentation. I was, you know, beginning to become convinced that she was guilty. The jury -- I mean, they're 12 very, very intelligent people, all of them. They did a great job. But I have some questions.
PORE: The Gucci dress, the tags, the tags in a pocket and then the tags in another pocket behind the pillar, buying one YSL blouse and then cutting up and stealing another one. There are just so many questions in here. And I think that the defense poked some good holes.
KING: So if you were in the jury room, had you been a regular juror, rather than an alternate, you would have voted not guilty on all three counts?
PORE: If I couldn't have filled those holes and filled all of them, I probably would have.
KING: But they might have been filled by asking questions of the other jurors, how they felt about it.
PORE: Quite possible. At this point, I can't reconcile a lot of those holes.
KING: So to you, at this point, you'd have been not guilty?
PORE: I believe so.
KING: OK. You have a question, Linda Grasso?
GRASSO: Oh, no. I was just -- I just was surprised. I was just reacting to that.
KING: Does anyone here have a question? Ross?
MCLAUGHLIN: I'd like to know what your thoughts were about the video that was shown. We saw it frame by frame, an hour-and-a-half of security camera video. What did you think?
PORE: She had a lot of things. They told us what they were. It was all black. There was one white blouse in there that I never saw.
MCLAUGHLIN: What was the most powerful piece of evidence that was presented to you?
PORE: I think the video mainly. You mean so far as her being guilty?
MCLAUGHLIN: What was presented in court.
PORE: Yes. Yes, I think the video was the most powerful piece of evidence.
KING: Linda, you have a question?
DEUTSCH: What did you think about the security guards that testified, particularly Colleen Rainey, who said that she saw Winona snipping tags, security tags off of garments in the dressing room?
PORE: If I had the time to expound on it, I could tell you some things about the mirror through the slats. My question is, is it possible that, part way through this whole thing, she maybe got on to the fact that she was being watched, but she had already done some of these things? And when she left the store, they got her. And she didn't actually have those things in her possession because they didn't -- they told us they had -- she had them in her possession. But is it possible that maybe, just maybe, they found they made a mistake and all she had really done was the vandalism, and then they had to start building the story from that point on?
KING: So it might have been guilty of vandalism only.
PORE: I don't think it was a conspiracy up front.
DEUTSCH: But you haven't seen evidence of that. You saw them stopping her with bags full of stuff.
PORE: Yes. I don't know -- I have to go on their word on what was in those bags.
DEUTSCH: I see.
KING: I see. Linda Grasso has a question. And then Jo Ellan, you may have a question, but Linda first.
GRASSO: I was just wondering -- I mean, why were so many people -- I mean how would the security guards from Saks, the officials and the detective, Mark Parker, who had been with the Beverly Hills Police Department for some 20 odd years, how would they all come up with the same story? I mean, did you really -- did you feel there was some collusion there? I mean did you see them sitting in a room saying, let's get Winona Ryder?
PORE: No. No, no, no. No, not a chance. Possibly, in our discussion, we start talking, we hear it so often that we buy it ourselves. And now I've seen people sit and repeat what a witness said on the stand, even though it wasn't the truth and they knew later, well, wait a second! I know that wasn't the truth. Why did I say that? Because they had heard the witness before them. That's why they're excluding witnesses now. But you can't exclude witnesses when they're around talking about it.
KING: Sherman, what you're saying is, beyond and to the exclusion of a reasonable doubt, they didn't convince you?
PORE: I'm not totally convinced. I would love to see the jurors, at least one or two of them, come on and plug those holes. Now, that doesn't mean that none of the holes were plugged. That means to me that if there's only one or two holes out there unplugged -- does that mean that something else is amiss?
KING: Before Ross has a question, Jo Ellan, I know you're a jury selector of great note. Do you have a question?
DIMITRIUS: Well, no, more of a comment because I understand that the foreperson of this jury was or is an aerospace engineer and certainly coming from a very analytical background. I also understand that he had been on three juries prior to this. First of all, I'm curious about why the defense would allow someone like this to stay on because, clearly, this man had a lot of history. You know, usually, going into cases like this, you want someone who is a virgin juror so that you, as the defense attorney or the prosecution, you can set the stage for what's happening.
So, essentially, he's a rocket scientist. He took this jury, obviously, analytically through the evidence. And I think, as I reflect on the composition of this jury, it's fascinating that Marc would have allowed a person like this to stay on the jury.
KING: But if you were a jury consultant for the defense, then someone like Sherman would have been an ideal guy for you.
DIMITRIUS: He would have been great because Sherman...
KING: He doesn't buy it on face value and he questions.
DIMITRIUS: Well, Sherman understands the value of what "beyond a reasonable doubt" means. And in any criminal case, on a defense side, that's what you want people to really understand. I don't know whether Sherman's been a juror before. But certainly on some level, he understands what "beyond a reasonable doubt" means.
And whether or not he, being exposed to the other jurors, would have changed his mind, we'll never know.
KING: All right. Hold it right there. We're gong to hold Sherman for one more segment, come back with more questions from our panel. We're going to meet a famous doctor as well, Dr. Marcus Goldman, Harvard trained, author of "Kleptomania, the Compulsion to Steal." He'll join the panel at the bottom of the hour. More with our panel and with Sherman Pore right after this. Don't go away.
RYDER: How can I think with all this racket? No I'm just kind of discombobulated. I'm just kind of...
It is, because this year I had so many great movies that you know that if you go to one of these things, you're going to...
RYDER: You know, people have been acting a little strange around here. You know, there's like a lot of locking of doors and shifty eyes and a lot of frisking. Tracy Morgan.
TRACY MORGAN, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Yo! I know how you feel. Those dudes are always following me around, man. It makes you feel like I'm at a Korean grocery store, and I work here.
RYDER: I know. It's weird. To my face, everyone's so sweet and nice, but I always feel like someone's looking over my shoulder.
MORGAN: They all nice to your face because that's because they don't want you to know that they installed security cameras this week.
RYDER: They set up security cameras because of me?
MORGAN: No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
RYDER: But wait. Then why did they set them up this week?
MORGAN: Because I can't think of a lie right now.
KING: Winona Ryder, obviously, poking fun at herself. Do you have a question Ross McLaughlin for Sherman Pore?
PORE: Well, Sherman, you said that the video was the strongest evidence for you. But "Celebrity Justice" today, we did talk to one of the jurors that did not go on camera who told us that, when they got in the jury room, the most powerful piece of evidence for them was the actual merchandise that was brought in and shown to the jury, the clothing that had the big holes cut out of them that was recovered by Winona Ryder after she was taken into the security office at Saks. What do you think?
PORE: Again, I just wonder if it was they found themselves high and dry. And I feel that there's at least one piece of evidence in there which doesn't fit.
KING: What's that?
PORE: That has to do with the tags. She's seen in the video monitor camera number two, allegedly, pulling some things out of her pocket and putting them in a another coat pocket. Now, tags -- we've got the tags on the table, right? Now we have four more tags in an unseen coat pocket behind a pillar that we can't see that they do find. Now, how many total tags were they?
KING: Are you're saying like this was a setup?
PORE: Well, is it possible that they couldn't prove their case totally when they couldn't find that coat that was in number two camera and they went over and they made these other tags up? If they did that to only one item...
KING: Then you've got to toss.
PORE: ... then what else might they have done? And again, it's not a prior thought conspiracy; it's a cover our ass conspiracy.
KING: I'll have Marc Klaas make some -- and Linda, too. But you wanted to say something. You want to elaborate on the Gucci dress.
PORE: Pardon me. We have a guy here who's been in the business 20 years, security. We have a woman here who has just committed grand theft -- grand theft -- on a grand scale. We have a dress that we're just going to ask her if it's hers. We have a dress here that looks like it's probably Saks Fifth Avenue.
We don't look up and down it. We don't go over it with a fine toothed comb. This is an expensive dress. We don't look to see if there are cuts and tears on it? There is a mistake. There's a big mistake. If they made that big mistake, how many other little mistakes might they have made?
KING: Conscientious guy.
MCLAUGHLIN: The Defense attorney, Mark Geragos, probably wishes you had been sitting on that jury.
KING: Linda Deutsch, you want to ask something? And then Marc Klaas, I'll go to you in a moment, Marc. Linda Deutsch?
DEUTSCH: Well, yes. I have a question for you, Sherman. This was a big celebrity case. This is a piece of Hollywood history. How did you feel and how did some of the other jurors feel when, suddenly, you become part of this amazing extravaganza?
PORE: I was scared. Really! I didn't want to have to be part of saying, guilty. I really didn't. I -- part way through it, I said, boy, this lady is guilty as sin. But then I started seeing all these little holes in the dike.
KING: By the way, do you like her? Are you a fan? Do you watch her movies?
PORE: Never seen one of her movies.
KING: Marc Klaas, do you have a question?
KLAAS: Well, first of all, I have to commend Sherman for his thoughtfulness. And I, too, wish he had been on the jury. But, Sherman, do you -- I'm sorry, been in the jury room -- but do you think her case would have been helped at all if she had taken the stand in her own defense?
PORE: I think it's possible. I think it's possible.
PORE: I think it's possible she might have been helped, yes.
DIMITRIUS: Larry, I have a question for Sherman too.
KING: Go ahead, Jo Ellan.
DIMITRIUS: There's been an awful lot of discussion amongst the media about all the different outfits that Winona wore to trial. What was your impression of those outfits and did it, in any way, influence your questioning of the verdict?
PORE: I didn't pay a lot of attention to the outfits. I did pay some attention to her. A lot of times I would look over at her when I saw the witness testifying to see what her responses were to different testimony.
Let's say this, yes, she's an actress, but to mouth some of those protests when the answer was given, she's a damn good actress to mouth those on cue, I'll tell you.
In my own personal opinion, I think her attorney probably told her not to do any of that. She just couldn't keep herself from doing it.
KING: Sherman, thanks for coming. Sherman Pore, alternate juror.
When we come back, I'll re-introduce the panel, and we'll be joined by Dr. Marcus Goldman, psychiatrist, author of "Kleptomania, the Compulsion to Steal."
Tomorrow night, Halle Berry and Pierce Brosnan, they co-star in the latest "James Bond" film coming in about two weeks. Halle Berry and Pierce Brosnan both tomorrow night together for the hour. We'll be right back.
ANN RUNDLE, PROSECUTOR, LA COUNTY: This is her first conviction. It is not a violent crime. I don't believe that she represents a danger to the community. And this would never be the type of case, regardless who the defendant is, that I would ever ask for jail time. This is a case that calls for probation and community service and restitution. And that's what we're going to ask for.
KING: Let's reintroduce our panel. I'll try to get a few phone calls later.
They are Jo Ellan Dimitrius, jury consultant, co-chairman of Vincent & Dimitrius, one of the world's top jury and trial consulting firms. In San Francisco, Marc Klaas, a friend of Winona Ryder. He attended the first day of the trial. When Marc's daughter Polly was abducted from her home, Winona offered money and reward for her return.
In Los Angeles is Linda Grasso, who does her stuff for the E! television network.
Linda Deutsch, the veteran reporter of the Associated Press. She's covered this trial as well as many other high profile L.A. cases.
And Ross McLaughlin, correspondent for the syndicated TV newsmagazine "Celebrity Justice."
We're now joined in Boston by Dr. Marcus Goldman, Harvard trained psychiatrist, author of "Kleptomania: The Compulsion to Steal."
And obviously Winona has not admitted to this, so we're discussing this disease. But she's been found guilty of it, so the jury thinks she has it. What is it, Dr. -- what is kleptomania, Dr.Goldman?
MARCUS GOLDMAN, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, Larry, it's a great question. I think it's been ill defined over the years. But I think first of all I have to say that the majority -- the vast majority of theft that happens in this country and indeed in the world is ordinary theft for a material gain, for monetary profit.
Having said that, there's a wide spectrum of stealing that includes everything from pocketing extra change that's not due you from stores to eating food in grocery stores that doesn't belong to you, to cheating on one's taxes and so on and so forth.
Kleptomania, quite simply, is an irresistible impulse to steal things that are not needed, that are not -- that are easily affordable. A great example that I like to give would be a woman, for example, walking into a store feeling an unbelievable sense of anxiety and tension seeing a blouse that may or may not be her color, her style or even her size and feeling impulsively that she has to possess it. She takes it. She puts it into her purse or her shirt. Immediately feels relief, even pleasure or elation. Heads towards the nearest exit, throws it into the garbage can. That would be a textbook definition of kleptomania.
KING: Are more females affected than males?
GOLDMAN: About 80 percent.
And interestingly enough, it's not so much the items that are stolen but the act of stealing that gives the sense of pleasure. That's why I was interested in the first part of the show. It would be interesting to know what Winona would've done with these objects had she left with them. It's not very clear to me why exactly she was taking these objects.
KING: But it's 80 percent women you say?
GOLDMAN: That's correct.
KING: Now, the kleptomaniac, if that's the correct term, does this, why? Why this need to take something?
GOLDMAN: Well, there are a lot of theories. I mean, my research has shown that...
KING: What's yours?
GOLDMAN: Well, most of the people are folks that are profoundly sad, depressed, anxious. These are folks who use stealing as a form of an antidepressant, for example, or what we call an anxialitic --- an anti-anxiety effect. It's much akin to taking medication or antidepressant. And it tends to kind of get the adrenaline and the endogenous opiates going.
These are very secretive people. They may have very difficult interpersonal relationships, poor social skills, chaotic upbringings. And so there's kind of a profile that we've seen over the last couple years about folks like this.
KING: Linda Grasso has a question for Dr. Goldman.
GRASSO: I was just wondering, after the verdict. the prosecutor Ann Rundell said that her sentence would probably include community service, probation and restitution to Saks. And I was just wondering if you were surprised that she didn't say some kind of counseling or therapy to help her with what is a problem?
GOLDMAN: Well that's a great question. And it certainly remains to be seen what's going to happen at sentencing. But I can tell you I actually just spoke with a gentleman today from a large city in this country whose wife who has been stealing for 34 years and has been apprehended five times. She's only served a sentence once. She served a week or two in prison. This is somebody who actually, for this person who feels very empty, stealing is the only thing she's got, according to her. And she actually doesn't want to give it up. So there isn't that kind of push to request those kinds of things because you have to want to give it up to give it up.
KING: Linda Deutsch.
DEUTSCH: Is it kleptomania treatable successfully, even though we have not heard any credible evidence that Winona Rider ever did this before? In a first offender, would you recommend treatment and would it be possibly successful?
GOLDMAN: Well, that's another good question and I actually have the fortuitous distinction of not being a policeman or a judge or juror, so I don't have to get into whether she is or isn't or guilt or innocence. But I will say that if you've got it and you want to get rid of it, it is possible. I am not of the opinion that medications and psychotherapy are the best ways to rid one's self of this disorder. Behavioral treatments really have the best long term studies and prognosis. And that would involve associating a very unpleasant experience such as pain or headache or nausea with the thought of stealing. So that when somebody goes into a store and impulsively tries to take something, they're immediately hit with this very unpleasant feeling. And really the long term studies have shown that those are some of the kinds of treatments that work.
There's a new treatment out called neltrexone (ph). It's an opiate antagonist. It blocks the rush. It's used in alcoholism. But in my opinion, if that were the drug of choice, we wouldn't have any alcoholism. We wouldn't have any opiate abuse and we wouldn't have any kleptomania. So I don't think drugs are the only answer.
KING: Ross McLaughlin -- then you. Hold it Jo Ellan -- Ross.
MCLAUGHLIN: Couple things. You just mentioned opiates as being a possible treatment. Well Winona Ryder had OxyContin on her person when she was arrested. And that is an opiate.
Beyond that, a lot has been made about the fact that she checked herself into the facility in her 20s for depression. Does she seem like the person who would fit the profile that you mentioned?
GOLDMAN: The profile of the basic kind of person who suffers from kleptomania is that of somebody who has had chaotic upbringing, very difficult interpersonal skills. They may actually have kind of rotating addictive-like behaviors such as drug abuse, promiscuity in some cases, stealing, very definitely depression. These tend to be profoundly sad, anxious people.
KING: Doctor, I got to get a break. I'm going to hold you though.
KING: We'll hold the doctor and we'll include some phone calls. Jo Ellan has a question of him and then we'll take your questions as well with our panel. I'm Larry King and you're watching LARRY KING LIVE and we'll all be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "Mermaids")
RYDER: This is not about him. This is about me, OK? That's over. He is gone. He is long gone.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Surprise,.
RYDER: No! It's not like that. Look, maybe your life works for you but it doesn't work for me and I want to stay!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: And do what?
RYDER: Finish high school!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Great start. What's your major, town tramp?
RYDER: No mom. The town already has one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Winona, could you lend us some money?
RYDER: You guys, you are not going to believe this, but I don't have my wallet either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what are we going to do?
RYDER: What are you looking at me for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I know. Why don't we just steal this stuff?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a great idea. I'm up for it. You, Winona?
RYDER: You guys, absolutely not. I am ashamed of you both. Stealing is wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess I see your point, Winona. But what the frick, let's steal this stuff (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, good call, Mango, you go first. The coast is clear. Go. They're right behind you. Go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Hope that added to your knowledge. Jo Ellan Dimitrius, do you have a question for Dr. Goldman?
DIMITRIUS: I sure do. Doctor, usually the next step in this process is that the defense has someone put together what's called a pre-sentencing report, where they look at the background of the individual, some of the mitigating circumstances in terms of the judge evaluating the ultimate sentence that he's going to be giving to her. Have you ever participated in that kind of process with a crime such as this?
GOLDMAN: Sure. I mean, I've seen dozens and dozens of folks like this, and all those mitigating circumstances will very definitely be taken into account. I would be very surprised, although I can't predict the future, actually psychiatrists are pretty bad at making predictions like this, but my guess is that she will not do any time. Obviously, the DA is not asking for any time. She probably will get counseling. Whether it's helpful or not is unclear.
Again, I mean, these are secretive disorders that are held very closely if this is kleptomania, to these folks, and they are very hesitant to give it up, again, because sometimes it's the only thing they feel they have going for them. I just want to add, Larry, it's a unique disorder because it's sandwiched halfway between mental illness and criminality, which makes it very unique amongst mental disorders.
KING: Well put. Pleasanton, California. We'll take some calls -- hello.
CALLER: Yes, hi, Larry. My question is for Marc. I'm just wondering where is her family in all this? Are they in the court appearing with her also, and how much is she spending on an attorney?
KING: And how much, Marc, have you spoken to her -- have you spoken to her today?
KLAAS: No, I haven't spoken to her yet, although I intend to call her when I get home and offer my continued support. Her mom and dad have been there every day. They're very low profile and very low key people, but they have always been extremely supportive of their daughter. They would go to the moon for her if it were asked. But they have been there every day, and they're giving her as much support as they humanly can.
KING: Are you saying no, Ross?
MCLAUGHLIN: No, no -- well, both parents appeared originally at the beginning of the trial, but for the verdict, I did not see her mother there today. Her father was there, Michael Horowitz (ph), but she was not -- her mother was not there.
KING: San Diego, hello.
CALLER: Hi, I have a quick question and a comment. I am embarrassed for Saks Fifth Avenue. I think their security team could have handled this case differently, seeing that Ms. Ryder is not a career criminal, and I won't be shopping there anymore. Do you think it will hurt their sales? And my comment is, I wish we could dissect the Enron thugs instead of Winona Ryder. Thank you.
KING: OK. Linda Grasso, would you think twice about -- does this affect you that Saks treated her this way?
GRASSO: I think twice of going there after hearing the prices of the stuff she allegedly ripped off...
GRASSO: The socks and the $200 hair bow. But no, of course not, they're security guards. It's their job to go in...
KING: Marc... KLAAS: You know, the first witness, Mr. Evans -- he described his job as asset protection manager, and it seems to me that somebody with an open account at Saks Fifth Avenue like Winona Ryder, who spends thousands upon thousands of dollars in that facility, and wears the purchases to spectacular effect, is really an asset that should have been protected in this situation, and not vilified and prosecuted. I find irony in that.
KING: Aren't there many...
GOLDMAN: Larry, can I pipe in just for a quick second?
KING: Sure, doctor.
GOLDMAN: I just want to say that although Winona was caught on film, kleptomania, if this is indeed what it is, does not know any particular socioeconomic group. It does not know any religion, any race, any creed. This happens thousands of times in this country every single day, losses of billions and billions of dollars. So, again I'm sure that security cameras are picking this up in every store in every country...
KING: Isn't it also true, though, doctor and for the panel, that many stores know the people who do this, and bill them?
GOLDMAN: That's correct. I have heard all kinds of stories about people, actually, who steal and then who kind of walk up and say here's what I took. I just needed to take. That's kleptomania.
KING: And husbands who tell stores -- I know for a fact, Linda Deutsch, that husbands do tell stores, just let me know what she stole and I'll pay it.
DEUTSCH: We have heard that. I think it's interesting what your caller asked about, about how whether Saks would be hurt. People have also said is Winona Ryder's career going to be hurt?
KING: Is it?
DEUTSCH: I don't think so. She's has had such incredible exposure as a result of this trial. She has been on TV every day. Saks' name has been in the press every day. I think it comes back to the old Hollywood saw (ph) about, I don't care what you say about me, as long as you spell my name right.
KING: Do you think...
DIMITRIUS: Larry, can I weigh in on this?
KING: Yes, go ahead Jo Ellan.
DIMITRIUS: What I was going to say is I totally agree with Linda. It's amazing that the American public has a tremendous ability to forgive a celebrity. I mean, we could start naming everybody from Hugh Grant to Halle Berry, Hugh Grant is now on the cover of one of the big magazines as man of the year, whereas, a year ago, he was in front of Jay Leno, saying, Yes, I did it, I am sorry I did it, and made fun of himself. So, it's amazing the way that a celebrity can use even something negative and totally recreate themselves.
KING: Doctor, one more quick question for you. Is it more of a problem, do you think, when the person who is a kleptomaniac sees her picture in the paper or on television?
GOLDMAN: It doesn't act as a very good deterrent, but I will say that in my practice, I tend to hold people accountable. I don't think there's an incentive to change if they're not accountable. Stealing is a moral, ethical, and financial and social wrong. I think that we need to be really cautious about -- in psychiatry, we're supposed to be compassionate, and all forgiving, but I don't think that tough love and compassion are mutually exclusive.
KING: Thank you, Dr. Goldman. We'll be calling on you again. Dr. Marcus Goldman, author of "Kleptomania: The Compulsion to Steal."
We'll come back with our panel and get some other thoughts as well, don't go away.
KING: One more call, Indianapolis, hello?
CALLER: Yes, Larry?
CALLER: I was wondering since Winona's now a convicted felon, in the future in a movie would she be allowed to possess a firearm?
KING: She wouldn't be allowed to possess a firearm in a movie or out of a movie. It's a weird question but it's been a weird case.
How about her publicity -- her publicity angle, Linda Grasso? The magazine covers, "Saturday Night Live," "Free Winona" T-shirts.
GRASSO: You know, there are two schools on that. It could have hurt her in this because, you know, in a way it made her look like she was thumbing her nose at what was happening to her and not taking it seriously. And then on the other hand, you might say, Well, you know what? Maybe they're trying to sort of fuel the thought that, Hey, they're not serious charges. She's not guilty. It's no big deal.
KING: Let's forecast the sentence. Jo Ellan Dimitrius what will the judge do, do you think, based on all you know?
DIMITRIUS: I say probation and a lot of community service and restitution of some substantial amount.
KING: Can you force someone to get psychological help as part of a sentence?
DIMITRIUS: That I'm not sure about. Certainly that's -- I think that's done in like DUI cases, so some sort of an analogy, I think it could be done here as well.
KING: Marc Klaas, what fits?
KLAAS: Well, listen, routinely in this country violent offenders, sexual molesters, rapists, people involved in horrible crimes are plea bargained out of felonies down to misdemeanors simply so that they won't -- simply so that they can save some money and they won't have to take it to trial. I only hope that the LA DA prosecutes these kinds of individuals with the same kind of enthusiasm and vigor that he's prosecuted Winona Ryder. And I hope he's proud of his record.
KING: What do you think, Linda Grasso? What do you think the sentence should be? Be Solomon.
GRASS: Oh, gosh. I mean, she's obviously not going to go jail. She's never been convicted of a crime. I -- you know, from what I hear with the -- Linda was alluding to the sealed statements there might be some prior evidence that she's done this before. I think that she should be required to get counseling. I mean, I think she sounds she's got a little bit of a problem. When you're that wealthy and you steal....
KING: Can -- do you know if they can require someone to get counseling and then if the counselor calls up and says she didn't come for a session, you put them in jail.
MCLAUGHLIN: Counseled for what though, Larry?
MCLAUGHLIN: She hasn't -- it didn't come up in trial. She hasn't been proven to be a kleptomaniac. This is all speculation.
KING: But isn't there now -- the presentence investigation. That could show that she is, right?
GRASSO: Even if you do it one time though. Even if you do it one time, you have a ton of money, you're stealing $5,000 worth of stuff, When they brought up -- she spends that kind of money all the time. She's a big shopper. So, I mean, that to me says she has a problem.
KING: Linda Deutsch, what do you think?
DEUTSCH: She may just like to shop-a-holic. She may just like to shop a lot. We don't know from the evidence. We don't know that she's done this before. It was not in the trial. And you cannot order someone to get treatment for something of which she has not been convicted, as far as I can see.
KLAAS: You know, Larry...
KING: Yes, Marc?
KLAAS: She's not -- she's not in a little bit of trouble. This isn't a minor thing. She's been convicted of two felonies. That potentially makes her a two-striker in the state of California. That means that if she's busted doing anything, she could spend the rest of her life in prison.
So, I mean, you know, I think we shouldn't be making light of this. I think we should be putting it in the context in which it deserves to be put.
GRASSO: I think any woman who has bought a nice outfit, Larry, is going to look at the fact that, you know, she had these outfits, they have giant holes in them. I mean, my gosh, what are you going to do, Go on the street with a bunch of holes in your clothes? Obviously there's a problem that's here.
KING: What were the nine -- the steps you were going to read to us, Ross for the prosecution?
MCLAUGHLIN: During the prosecution's closing arguments. The Top 10 list of what the law doesn't say and I'll just read you a couple of the highlights: Only poor people steal. No video, no crime, alluding --
KING: The prosecution mentioned this?
MCLAUGHLIN: The prosecution mentioned that. No video, no crime, alluding to the fact that they didn't see on the videotape her cutting off the tags with scissors. Crime is OK as long as your director tells you to do it. And here's my favorite: If you sell $200 hair bows, you deserve to get ripped off.
KING: Do you think there is some antagonism towards Saks?
DEUTSCH: Well, I think that there is surprise on the part of the public. I mean, a lot of people didn't know that you could go in and buy a little thermal top which is kind of like long underwear for $750 or that you could get socks for $80. This is pretty surprising.
KING: A lot of people may say, Heck, steal that.
DEUTSCH: Well, that's what the prosecutor was answering. She was saying, Just because you don't like these prices doesn't mean you can say Saks deserved to be ripped off. It just isn't the case.
KING: Linda Grasso, why was this so heavily covered?
GRASSO: Oh gosh. I mean, you have a major celebrity, a two-time Oscar nominee, a woman who has won a Golden Globe, a woman with serious acting chops who's on trial for felonies. I mean, she's sitting at the table in the courtroom as a defendant just like many other criminals. It's an unusual sight for your eyes.
MCLAUGHLIN: It's got all the elements. It's got celebrity. It's got crime and court drama, all the things that sell TV and sell newspapers.
KING: But it's shoplifting. It's not sex. It's not death. It's not murder. It's shoplifting.
DIMITRIUS: Also, like Linda was saying though, she's also incredibly beautiful.
MCLAUGHLIN: It's Winona Ryder.
DIMITRIUS: She is a strikingly beautiful woman.
DEUTSCH: You can't take your eyes off her in the courtroom.
DIMITRIUS: We love to watch celebrities have their dirty laundry aired. It's been a pastime of this country for years and years and will continue for years in the future.
GRASSO: I think it's something even deeper, which is that we think celebrities have perfect lives and if we had them, everything would be great. And then we see something like this and her life isn't perfect.
KING: We thank Jo Ellan Dimitrius of Vincent & Dimitrius, Marc Klaas of the famed Klaas Kids Foundation, Linda Grasso of E! television, Linda Deutsch of the Associated Press and Ross McLaughlin of "Celebrity Justice" for joining us.
I'll come back and tell you about tomorrow night right after this.
Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE Halle Berry and Pierce Brosnan together. They co-star in "Die Again" -- "Die in Die Again" (sic), which is the new James Bond film, which I saw this morning, by the way. "Die Another Day." Somebody's dying in all their titles. It's about dying and living -- a lot of fun.
Halle Berry and Pierce Brosnan tomorrow night.
Aaron Brown is still in Atlanta after last night's yeoman-like job. He had to stay in Atlanta because he must have slept all day. What a great job he did last night.
I got a scoop for you, Aaron, OK? Am I allowed a scoop?
AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: Yes.
KING: OK, it's a baseball scoop.
KING: Dusty Baker is not going to manage the Giants. That was announced today. Just -- you heard it here. The next -- the next manager of...
BROWN: He's going to the Mariners.
KING: Mariners or the Cubs. The next manager of the Giants could be Bobby Valentine. Say nothing. Don't be surprised.
BROWN: I promise I won't be.
KING: And now we turn it over to my esteemed colleague, who did a dynamite job last night anchoring in a very difficult situation. My man Aaron Brown.
BROWN: Thank you, Mr. King.
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