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CNN Talkback Live
Sniper Suspects Linked to Georgia Murder; Jesse Jackson Speaks Out on Democratic Party
Aired November 07, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Well, you just heard Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington say authorities here in Atlanta say they believe a September shooting at a liquor store could be related to the Beltway sniper suspects, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. We're going to get a live update.
And then stay tuned, because Jesse Jackson is going to tell us what he thinks is wrong with the Democrats. And later, find out why a flag in Georgia is still making waves in this state.
But, first, let's find out about whether Georgia has a link to the D.C. area snipers.
CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman is outside an Atlanta liquor store where a shooting occurred in September.
Good afternoon, Gary, first of all.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, good afternoon to you.
NEVILLE: Gary, why don't you recap for us how authorities were able to connect this Atlanta shooting to the snipers.
TUCHMAN: OK. That's a good idea, because the news conference was a bit confusing.
But here's what we know. This is Sam's Package Store, a liquor store in the southern part of Atlanta. On the morning of September 20, shortly after midnight, it is believed the a man was inside this liquor store visiting a friend of his who works inside. As a matter of fact, his friend, a woman, is inside the store right now.
They both, apparently, according to the woman inside, saw a suspicious car outside, although the woman says she wasn't able to see what the car looked like. She says her friend went outside to look at the car. And, at that point, she heard two gunshots. She ran out. Her friend lay dying on the street. His name: Million Woldemarian. He is either 41 or 42 years old, an immigrant from Ethiopia, moved to Canada in 1977, then moved here to the United States about five or six years ago.
Now, according to police authorities, they have been able to take ballistics information from the pistol used in this shooting and match it up with a pistol that was found in Alabama about seven hours later after another shooting we're all familiar with in Montgomery, Alabama. There, a woman was killed, another woman wounded at another liquor store seven hours later.
Now, police found the pistol there. They don't believe the pistol was used in Alabama. They believe a rifle was used in Alabama, a rifle that matched up with the other shootings in Washington. But they found the pistol, compared the ballistics from that pistol to the pistol that was actually used here.
So, by process of elimination, they believe this shooting, the shooting in Alabama seven hours later, another shooting in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, two days after that, are all connected to the 13 shootings in the Washington, D.C. area that began nine days after the Louisiana shooting and 11 days after this shooting.
NEVILLE: Now, Gary, the lady who is working inside of the store now, a friend or a co-worker of the victim, was she able to tell you whether or not there were two people in this car?
TUCHMAN: No. She tells us this was her friend just paying a visit to her while she was working here by itself. It was a very quiet store. It was late at night.
But she says she doesn't know what the car looks like or who was in the car. All she know is that there was a suspicious car in the driveway late at night. She was concerned. She said her friend told her: "Please, don't go outside. I'll go outside and take a look." He came out, was shot twice, once in the head, once in the body, and died.
Through good police work -- and we just heard this during the news conference -- they were able to match the bullet here with the pistol that was found in Montgomery, Alabama.
NEVILLE: So it looks like perhaps no motive of robbery or anything like this, just someone being in an unfortunate situation, wrong place, wrong time, and kind of being a so-called good samaritan and trying to check the situation out.
TUCHMAN: Well, you bring up a good point, Arthel.
It's very rare that you have a shooting at this type of business that's not a robbery. And it makes us scratch our heads, because when you hear about a case like this, this happened here in the city of Atlanta before the Washington string all began. But this wasn't a huge local news story. Usually, you would consider it to be a huge local news story if someone shot for no reason, no robbery attempt, outside of a liquor store. But, as we saw, if this is linked to all these other shootings, these were all inexplicable.
NEVILLE: Gary, this is so unfortunate. Here a guy I think you said just coming to the United States just several years ago, and had to meet this unfortunate situation.
Again, tell me a little bit more about what the lady who works in the store, his friend, had to say about him, the victim? Tell us his name again if you would, too.
TUCHMAN: I would be happy to, Arthel.
By the way, the woman would who works inside this store is a little camera-shy. She didn't want her face to appear on camera. But we did talk to her and have her on audio on camera, which we'll play for you later.
But she did us that this man came from Ethiopia to Canada in 1977, moved to the Atlanta area in 1996, 19 years late. We're told that he was either 41 or 42 years old when shot. His name: Million Woldemarian. We're told he worked at a Wolf camera store. A friend of his came by a short time ago, also talked to reporters. He didn't want to appear on camera either. He said he was a wonderful man, a religious man. He came here to keep a friend company that night and ended up being a victim of a murder.
NEVILLE: OK, Gary Tuchman, thank you very much for the report.
And later this hour, Attorney General Ashcroft will have a news conference concerning federal charges against Malvo and Muhammad. Of course, we will bring you that live when it happens.
And right now, we're going to take a break.
And up next, have you been watching what the Democrats -- what happened to them? Well, tell me what you think is wrong with the party. Does it need a new leader or new leaders, a new message, or a new image? You can go ahead and give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or, of course, you can e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com. Jesse Jackson joins us with some ideas.
And then later: Should this flag be put to a vote? It's the kind of thing that can make or break a governor. Maybe it already did.
I'll explain when TALKBACK LIVE continues. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE:
SONNY PERDUE (R), GEORGIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: Free at last, free at last! Thank God, almighty, free at last!
NEVILLE: Was Georgia's governor-elect out of line when he used what some civil rights leaders consider sacred words? Also, what role did this flag play in the Georgia election? And could it come back to haunt Republicans?
The talk continues after this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Democrats are still reeling from Tuesday's crushing defeat. House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt is giving up his post in light of those losses. Was it the candidates, the message, the platforms? Were the voters, why were they turned off? And can Democrats do anything about it?
Here to talk about it is the Reverend Jesse Jackson, a former presidential candidate and founder of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.
Hello, Reverend Jackson. Good to see you.
REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: How do you do?
NEVILLE: All right.
And Peter Beinart, editor of "The New Republic."
Hey, Peter.
PETER BEINART, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Hi. Nice to be here.
NEVILLE: And syndicated columnist Terry Jeffrey.
Hi, Terry. He's also the editor of "Human Events."
I want to welcome all of you to the show.
Now, before we move on, I want to start by reading a portion of the letter Congressman Gephardt sent to the House today. He said: "I've concluded that in fairness to my friends and colleagues in the House, they need a leader for the next two years who can devote his or her undivided attention to putting our party back in the majority. It's time for me personally to take a different direction, look at the country's challenge from a different perspective and take on this president and the Republican Party from a different vantage point."
Peter Beinart, I'll begin with you.
Gephardt no longer wants to be House minority leader. Is this about the elections or personal political aspirations?
BEINART: Well, I think it's about both.
I think a lot of people expected he would do this afterwards, because he wants to run for president. And it's very difficult to run for president while you're also trying to lead the Democrats in the House. Unfortunately, for Gephardt, the new spin on this move after the elections is that it's not entirely clear that Gephardt would have been able to run uncontested again for House minority leader, because there's a lot of dissatisfaction about his inability to take back the House for the Democrats in four straight election cycles now. So, unfortunately, for him, this move now looks a little bit like an escape hatch from a guy who's career as the House leadership wasn't going so well.
NEVILLE: So, Terry, how do you see it?
TERRY JEFFREY, EDITOR, "HUMAN EVENTS": Well, I think unless there's -- Gephardt better give up on thinking he's going to be president in 2004, because, unless there's a dramatic shift in the direction of the country, George Bush is going to be reelected easily.
But the Democratic leader in Washington that should take the brunt of the blame for the Democratic disaster is Tom Daschle, the Senate leader, because what happened is, he was set up by the Republicans in Washington for this defeat. They passed through the House a number of bills that the president supported that are broadly popular in the country, making his tax cuts permanent, for example, the Homeless Security Department bill, that Tom Daschle blocked in the Senate.
And the president went out and made those the feature issues in this campaign and slam-dunked the Democrats because of what Daschle did in the Senate.
NEVILLE: Reverend Jackson?
JACKSON: I think the Democrats lost in part because of Bush's hard-working popularity, in the greater measure because of a blurred message in the crisis.
Mr. Bush came in office two years ago with a $1.5 trillion surplus, now a $200 billion deficit and rising, driving all states into deficit spending, cutting Medicare and public education and public transportation. And we've lost two million jobs in the last two years. We've gone from surplus to deficit in two years.
Humongous scandals: Enron and Halliburton and Harken. The workers have lost billions of dollars in pension funds and in 401(k) funds. These issues of great economic substance for common people were never discussed. And, so, fundamentally, Saddam may or may not come, but the jobs are leaving. And we should have run on that economic platform.
NEVILLE: Now, didn't the Democrats -- did they not highlight that, though? Because some people are saying that they did not focus on the whole Iraq situation. They should have and not talked so much about the economy.
JACKSON: Well, you have a combination.
On the one hand, people know that their pension funds matter. You now have got 65-year-old people going back looking for a job, because they've lost their 401(k). They've lost their pension. And the economy does matter. Democrats made two fundamental errors, in my judgment: one, the $1.5 trillion surplus. Some Democrats voted for a tax cut rather than reinvest in America, a fundamental breakaway from the base. The other is that agreeing to attack Iraq preemptively and unilaterally, risking global disaster -- when Wellstone took a position against that, his arrow went up. Durbin in Illinois, his arrow went up. So Democrats have an identity crisis about what matters in foreign policy and what priorities are in domestic policy.
NEVILLE: Let me bring up an e-mail right now and share this with you. It's from Alex in New Jersey. He says: "Unless Democrats return to their values and move away from middle-of-the-road politics, they will never gain a solid majority again. I have lost faith in them and will now vote Green."
And, Reverend Jackson, I don't mean to have an imbalance here in my guests, but I do want to go back to you on this and ask you if you feel the Democrats perhaps would be taking their voter base, their liberal voter base for granted?
JACKSON: Who is their base? Their base is organized labor. They choose wages for workers over tax cuts for a few. Who is our base? Women who want gender quality. Who is their base? African- Americans.
In Florida, Georgia, South and North Carolina, New York, Texas and Louisiana, Democrats lost the election, by fewer than the number of unregistered -- by fewer the number of registered uninformed black voters. They invested almost no money in turning out that part of their base. That's what I call an identity crisis.
NEVILLE: Terry, I think you wanted to jump in.
JEFFREY: Yes, Arthel, I would point that out one of the reasons the Democrats lost the Senate is because of organized labor and the pressure that big labor put on the Democrats not to pass a homeland security bill unless it has labor-union-type protections for federal workers. Its first job is to protect the security of Americans against terrorists.
If you read the speeches that President Bush gave in the last few weeks of this campaign, he went to state after state after state where there was a close election hitting the Democrats with precisely that issue. Democrats lost because they pandered to big labor, not because big labor didn't support them.
JACKSON: In 1986, when Mr. Reagan was a popular president, we pulled in two million new votes in my 1984 campaign. And across the South, in the height of Reagan's popularity, Democrats took the Senate back because new voters voted. This time, those who would Democrats in fact did not vote. And we lost by a margin of uninspired voters.
NEVILLE: Listen, I have to take a break.
Jeffrey, I haven't forgotten you, by the way.
Still ahead, I want to tell you why this flag, what it has to do with the governor-elect in Georgia, and a promise he made to voters.
TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Listen, as we do here on TALKBACK LIVE, we continue our discussions during the break. I want to share some of that with you. We're talking about elections.
And, Terry, you were saying what?
TERRY: I was saying that I don't understand what kind of change people want to see with this Republican revolution again, because it seems like, to me, the people that have been in control who have had the power are also responsible for the big scandals economically in the country. So what is it that they want to do that they haven't already been doing?
NEVILLE: And I think you also asked what does this mean to you and to the average American person?
JACKSON: Mr. Bush has not met with organized labor one time in two years. That is a message to working people. He has not met with the NAACP one time in two years, nor Ashcroft, a message to black people.
That is real polarization, economic polarization and race polarization. And we deserve a one-big-tent view of American government and justice.
NEVILLE: OK, listen.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang for a sec. I've got to go to the phones now, Florida. Richard is standing by.
You say what, sir?
CALLER: Yes.
First of all, I'm not a Democrat. After daddy Bush's reign, I consider myself to be an anti-Republican. I don't agree with all the Democratic viewpoints. However, I was hoping that the Democrats were going to save this country from this complete and total takeover by this, what seems to be a very harsh and corrupt government that we seem to have.
And, you know, I'm very surprised that they didn't try very hard. It seems like they had a lot of opportunities to exploit Enron, a lot of opportunities to exploit the massive giveaways after 9/11, and the fact that it seems like we're going to go to Iraq, whether we want to or not as a population. They didn't do any of this. They just sat there quiet, as if they wanted to lose. (CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: That's what I meant by identity crisis.
Some Democrats voted for the tax cut and therefore couldn't run against its disastrous impact. Some voted for the against Iraq war without a compelling case. So, in a confused identity, they lost, because two Republicans parties are illegal. One is enough.
NEVILLE: OK, Peter, I think you wanted to jump in. Go ahead.
BEINART: Yes, I think the caller is absolutely right.
The Democrats ran this race the way they ran the race in 2000 and 1998, on old standby issues like Social Security and prescription drugs. And they were confident because they thought they knew how to turn out their vote better. But America has changed radically in the last two years. It's changed because of this proposed war on Iraq and the war on terrorism. And it's changed because of the Bush tax cut.
And the Democratic Party, fundamentally, tried to say as little as possible about those two things as they could. The Democratic Party will not fundamentally return, I think, to strength until it finds something distinctive to say about the national security threat facing the United States. I think that has to include support for the war on Iraq, but it has to include other things as well.
A party that never talks about foreign policy and national security, when it's the most important thing to the country right now, will not be considered credible to Americans, who are still very anxious about the threat from abroad.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have to take a break right now.
Russ, I will get you when I come back.
And we are still waiting for a news conference from Attorney General John Ashcroft on the sniper investigation. We're going to bring that live to you when it happens.
And when we come back: What did Georgia's governor-elect say to anger civil rights leaders? And what did the Confederate flag have to do with his upset victory in the governor's race?
We're going to talk about that when we come back. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: OK, Michael (ph), in California, thanks so much for sending in that e-mail. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
We're continuing this discussion here on what happened on election night to the Democrats. And Heather, you're saying what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a problem with people saying that the Democrats are only focusing on Medicare, they're only focusing on Social Security and they need to be supporting the country and the Republicans in the foreign policy and the homeland security. But I think the problem with the economy right now is that President Bush only focuses on homeland security.
And when the economy takes a downturn, he's now turning around and making press conferences and saying, well, we need to build up the economy. Well, he's the only one that's focusing on homeland security.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Jeffrey, do you want to jump in here?
TERRY JEFFREY, EDITOR, "HUMAN EVENTS": Yes. The problem with the economy for the Democrats is that the economy was not doing bad. They were talking the economy down, they were actually rooting for a double dip recession that didn't show up.
The week before the election, we found out the economy grew at a 3.1 percent base in the third quarter. Inflation was down. Interest rates were down.
Unemployment did not spike this month. It was 5.7 percent, which, by the way, is the average it held through the '90s when Bill Clinton was President. So the reason the economic issue didn't work for the Democrats, is because they wanted to raise taxes and the economy is doing well and people are not upset about Bush's leadership on the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
JESSE JACKSON? Are you saying that we're better off economically than we were two years ago? Are you saying that?
JEFFREY: Absolutely, Jesse Jackson. If you want to check the statistics put out by Bill Clinton's government, we started into recession when Bill Clinton was still in office. We then cut taxes with George Bush's leadership.
And despite September 11 and the impact it had on the economy, we grew out of recession in the post September 11 period. The economy is growing, unemployment is staying down, interest rates are down, inflation is down. Those are the economic facts you have to deal with.
JACKSON: Two million unemployed workers would not agree with you.
JEFFREY: Well, that's not good. We'd like to have everybody employed, Reverend Jackson. But the truth is, it's a fact that the unemployment rate right now is 5.7 percent. That's what it averaged when Bill Clinton was president. And you weren't complaining about it then, because you're economic complaints are partisan not based on reality.
JACKSON: Poverty is up and unemployment is up.
NEVILLE: OK. You know what I want to do here, is I want to take a poll of the audience. You've been listening to this conversation. I want to hear what the people have to say about this.
If you think the economy is better now than it was before, go ahead and applaud. If you think the economy is worse off now than it was before.
OK, Russ (ph), let me go ahead and start with you. You say the economy is better now. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel it's turning around. I mean, I'm from the northeast, of upstate New York, and it's in the pits. But it's not as bad today as it was six months ago. Things are starting to change around.
I live in the Corning area, which is Corning glass. And they Just laid off another 2,000 people up there. And it's turning around.
I mean, it's like you're on the bottom of the ocean, and there's only one place to go now. And that's going back up. Your stock market is starting to go back up, and the economy follows the stock market up. Everybody gets an extra dollar in their pocket.
NEVILLE: OK, let me go ahead -- Peter.
PETER BEINART, THE NEW REPUBLIC: But most Americans think the economy is bad and getting worse. They disagree with Terry Jeffrey.
JEFFREY: That's why they voted Republican on Tuesday.
BEINART: No, they didn't vote on that issue.
JEFFREY: Oh yes they did.
BEINART: But the polls are overwhelming on that regard. You can't. I mean it's obvious.
JEFFREY: No. The polls put the Republicans and a majority in the Senate in midterm election. They should have lost.
BEINART: Sure, but it wasn't because of the economy.
JEFFREY: They increased the Republican representatives in the House, never done before in the history of the country. The president stumped every close state talking about the economy, talking about his tax cuts, talking about the fact the Democrats wouldn't make it permanent. Tom Daschle...
(CROSSTALK)
BEINART: He didn't talk about not making the tax cut permanent. That's nonsense. JEFFREY: The reality is the economy is growing. That's a fact. The Democrats didn't want to deal with it, they paid for it politically.
BEINART: Well most Americans disagree with that.
NEVILLE: OK. And listen, let me jump in here now, because I want to talk to Reverend Jackson about one other point. I understand that Reverend Al Sharpton believes there needs to be moved leadership amongst the Democrats. What do you think?
JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), leadership, it is very early to determine who that will be. Congressional leadership, for example, Gephardt stepped down as the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who will do that. The DNC leadership may be challenged. The Senate leadership may be challenged.
Maybe in election 2004, since a lot of kind of moving (ph) around as to who will emerge and what group of leaders, there obviously must be a change in Democrat leadership and change the course with a clearer message.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I want to move on now. The Democrats were stunned in Georgia when Republican Sonny Purdue unseated Governor Roy Barnes. It was the first time a Republican had won the governorship in 130 years, but the governor-elect already is clashing with civil rights leaders who say he was more than insensitive during this outburst of joy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SONNY PURDUE (R), GOVERNOR ELECT, GEORGIA: I think there's an old expression, free at last, free at last, thank god, almighty, free at last.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Once again, Reverend Jackson, I'm going to start with you on that for obvious reasons. I want to ask if you think these comments or this reaction was inappropriate or did he have the right to say that?
JACKSON: He had the right to say it, but it seems to be a mockery. I mean free of what? Free to fly the confederate flag again? Free to end affirmative action? Free to cut back on equal pay for women.
I mean it was not in his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to, in effect, quote that was not the king had made famous. He's free to say it. It seemed to have been a mockery. That's why many people feel insulted.
NEVILLE: Hey Terry, what do you think about this?
JEFFREY: Listen, I think that civil rights leaders should be glad that in 2002 a white Republican governor of Georgia will stand up and approvingly use the words of Martin Luther King. And, in fact, Sonny Purdue has said he admires Martin Luther King and admires his message.
And I can tell you one of my favorite quotes that I like to use is from the Reverend Martin Luther King's letter from the Birmingham jail, where he quotes St. Augustine of St. Thomas Aquinas and he says that a just law is a law that accords with the law of god. An unjust is a law that does not accord with the law of god.
And just like the Jim Crow laws in Birmingham and in Georgia in the 1950s and '60s and before that did not accord with the law of god, the abortion laws in this country, including in Georgia today, do not accord with the law of god. And Sonny Purdue is on the good side of that civil rights battle and Jesse Jackson and the outgoing Governor Barnes are not.
BEINART: Look, this quote from Roy Barnes is terrific for the Democratic Party. And I can guarantee you, in the White House right now, they're gnashing their teeth over it. Because it reminds people, when a Republican governor of Georgia, when everybody who knows anything about politics in the state of Georgia know the Republican Party in Georgia has re-created itself in the post civil rights era by being the party of anti civil rights.
JEFFREY: That's not true.
BEINART: Oh, come on. Everyone uses that phrase and then says we're going to have a referendum on the confederate flag. Don't be naive, Terry. We know what's going on here. And the Democratic Party, if they didn't get their base out last time, they will next it out next time, where people like that are around (ph).
JACKSON: To me, the tragedy of this is that, in Georgia, 60 percent of all Georgians make less than $20,000 year and half of them make less than $10,000. So rather than focus on the American flag, which unites us, debating the confederate flag (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that war is over, and not focus at all on 60 percent of all Georgians make less than $20,000 a year. That's an issue that really matters and should be a matter of debate.
JEFFREY: And the Democrats want to raise your taxes. And I believe this is effort...
JACKSON: Raise wages, not taxes.
JEFFREY: ... to retroactively -- excuse me -- this is an effort to retroactively racialize the election...
BEINART: By Democrats?
JEFFREY: Yes.
BEINART: Who's putting the confederate flag on the ballot? Sonny Purdue is...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JEFFREY: Let me finish my thought. One of the best things about this election is it lacks a degree of racial demagoguery and polarization that we've seen in previous elections, particularly from the Democratic party. Now retroactively that the Democrats have lost, these issues are being raised in an effort to polarize the country again. It's wrong.
NEVILLE: Let me jump in here and get Neil (ph) from Connecticut to speak out. Go ahead, Neil (ph).
CALLER: Reverend Jackson, I'm a huge fan. I love the work that you've done, but here we go again, where just because some words have come out of the mouth of a famous black leader, they're sacred somehow. We're as much off target here with this as we were talking about the "Barbershop" movie a few weeks back.
You know just because it came out of the mouth of a black person does not make these words sacred. The next thing you know, if everything that a black leader is thought to have said at some point, a beloved black leader, if those words are suddenly going to become sacred, the next words that are going to become sacred are, I did not have sex with that woman.
JACKSON: The fact is, he has a right to say it. It comes off as a mockery. And, frankly, his "free at last" statement in the end does not deal with the economic and educational substance. More important than that, the confederate flag will re-divide us again. We should be rallying behind the American flag, not divided by the confederate flag. One flag is enough for one nation.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, we have to take a break right now. I want to remind you that we're waiting for a news conference from Attorney General John Ashcroft on the sniper investigation. We're going to bring that live to you when it happens. And coming back, what did the confederate flag that we're talking about here have to do with Purdue's win in Georgia?
We're going to discuss that when we come back, so don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
The new Georgia state flag seems to have had something to do with the defeat of Governor Barnes. Barnes was responsible for getting rid of the old flag, which prominently featured the confederate emblem. But some Georgia voters thought Barnes should have had a referendum, and they held their own referendum on the governor.
Apparently they believe the old flag might still wave under Purdue. And Peter, I'll start with you on this one. That Purdue, in fact, is calling for a statewide vote to let the people decide what to do with the flag. Is this a good move or could it backfire with perhaps the Democrats here?
BEINART: Well, I think it's not a good move. And this is what's so laughable about Terry saying that the Democrats are injecting race into this. When you come to office after a long painstaking process, bipartisan in the Georgia state legislature and with the governor when they've gotten rid of the flag, and you say you want to hold a referendum on it, you have to be incredibly naive to think that this guy is not re-injecting race into Georgia politics because he thinks it's going to help him with white voters.
He actually might be right, but in the long term -- and I'm going to give a little bit of credit to George W. Bush here. In the long term, if the Republican Party is going to have a future, it's going to have to get away from the racial politics that have been a staple of its appeal in the south. And I think Sonny Purdue in that regard is a very unfortunate throwback.
JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) represents secession from the U.S., slavery and segregation. And they lost that war and the union won. Thus, we have a United States.
We have soldiers today in foreign countries. They're all operating under the American flag. We who love America should choose the American flag that unites us, and not the confederate flag that divides us. And that's not an issue of black and white. It's almost an issue of loyalty versus lack of it.
NEVILLE: Let me get this gentleman, Stone (ph), to stand up for me. And tell me what you are thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm thinking that we have a governor that has not even made it to office and already he's showing his true colors. He won't make it.
NEVILLE: But some are saying that's how he got put in to office, that the folks in rural Georgia came out to vote against Barnes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It won't last. That, I'm confident of.
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
JACKSON: Even if in the next election blacks come alive and blacks and whites together defeat the flag issue, it's still divisive. How can we -- you could not have the Atlanta Braves and the Atlanta Hawks, the Falcons, the -- the new south united around the American flag. The new south came around racial reconciliation.
That flag symbolizes separation and segregation and slavery and sedition. We should know better than that in the year 2002.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Jeffrey -- I mean Terry. Excuse me.
JEFFREY: I'll agree with Jesse Jackson on this score, I think all Americans have to look to our national flag. That we have to look at what unites us as a people beyond race and any other consideration. And that we don't want any political issue that's going to unnecessarily divide us along those lines.
However, I think this emphasis on this flag issue is actually a Democratic and liberal tactic to divide us, not to unite us. And the fact is, if you look at the election returns in Georgia -- you folks are sitting right there in Atlanta -- the reason Mr. Purdue was elected governor is because he did better in the suburbs of Atlanta than Republicans running for governor have done in the past. And as you people know, right there in Atlanta, the suburbs in Atlanta aren't filled with old southerners, they're filled with a lot of people that have moved to Georgia from other states in the last couple of decades.
BEINART: Hey, what percentage of the black vote did Sonny Purdue get? Come on. Did he get five percent?
NEVILLE: OK, listen, what I'm going to do right now is call up an e-mail and share that with you. Let's see. It's from Susan (ph) in Texas.
"The rebel flag was not meant as a racist symbol. It was meant to show southern pride. How many times does that have to be said? Some people are determined not to hear that."
JACKSON: It flew over slavery. It flew over that which divided our nation. More Americans died in the Civil War than World War I or II. And when you lose the war, the vanquished must submit their properties. That flag should be in the museum, not flying almost coequal with the American flag.
It clearly, as a symbol, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that divides Americans. No American in Afghanistan today will wave that flag, and should not. One America, one flag.
NEVILLE: Interesting. Let me come over here, Terry (ph). Stand up. You're from South Carolina. You're jumping to get in it here. Go ahead, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we had this issue in South Carolina, flag flying over the state house, and it came down. But what a lot of people don't remember is when that flag first went up on the state house, and I believe the year was 1962, and you tell me that wasn't a message to people in the state of South Carolina? When the flag was put in the state house in 1962, right in the height of the civil rights era?
JACKSON: It did not fly from 1863 until 1956 in Georgia. They began to fly the flag again as an ally of segregation against Martin Luther King, who was from Atlanta, Georgia. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) resurrection of that flag as symbol of southern loyalty was the southern way of life that was divided.
We can't have the new south in all of its glory and the old south a racial division. You can't reconcile it. You can't have it both ways.
NEVILLE: Hey, listen, Reverend Jackson, we're waiting for that news conference from Ashcroft. But, in the meantime, I want to ask you something about the Democrats. Getting back to that.
Listen, if, in fact, the Democrats took their voter base for granted, what can they do to gain back their confidence? JACKSON: In 1986, the respected Republicans that went (ph) in to keep the Senate, Mr. Reagan was a very popular president at that time, we put on two million new voters in '84 and Democrats took the Senate back. Even guys like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Georgia got 32 percent of his vote was white, he still won it.
This time around, the basic black alliance in the party was not informed, inspired and vested in. We lost...
NEVILLE: Why is that?
JACKSON: Well, because party leadership underestimated. Democrats want the vote but not the relationship. That's why they call it an identity crisis. The Democratic Party is black, white, male, female, Hispanic and labor. It must honor its base.
If Georgia Tech were playing University of Georgia in a football game, you should not spend your time if you go to Georgia Tech trying to keep Georgia from being angry. Inspire your base. Don't try to make the other base quiet.
The Democrats did not inspire their base and paid a huge price for it on Tuesday.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, you know what, I have an e-mail coming in now that I want to share with everybody. It's actually regarding the flag. It's from Daniel (ph) in Georgia.
He says, "The changing of the flag isn't the issue. It's the matter in which the flag was changed. The Democrats knew that if citizens had voted that the flag would not be changed."
JACKSON: Explain that. What does that mean?
NEVILLE: I wish Daniel (ph) were on the phone and he could tell us what he meant. Let me see -- go ahead, sir. Stand up for me. I think you wanted to say something on this subject.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were talking about the confederate flag flying over slavery. The stars and stripes flew over more slaves than the confederate battle flag ever flew over. The battle flag, as we call it, the confederate flag, is nothing but a rally flag.
NEVILLE: Rallied for what and for whom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A rally for the troops when they were in the heat of battle.
NEVILLE: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the Civil War.
BEINART: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war between the states, my mistake.
NEVILLE: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war between the states in the battle.
JACKSON: To maintain slavery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Slavery was brought into the issue much later. Much later.
BEINART: The point is that the American flag, while it might have flown over slavery, was also the flag that liberated people from slavery. The confederate flag did not. That's the fundamental divide.
JACKSON: It is amazing that in the year 2002 we're debating about which flag should fly over the United States.
NEVILLE: OK. Reverend Jackson, excuse me right now.
(INTERRUPTED BY BREAKING NEWS)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Speaks Out on Democratic Party>
Aired November 7, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Well, you just heard Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington say authorities here in Atlanta say they believe a September shooting at a liquor store could be related to the Beltway sniper suspects, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. We're going to get a live update.
And then stay tuned, because Jesse Jackson is going to tell us what he thinks is wrong with the Democrats. And later, find out why a flag in Georgia is still making waves in this state.
But, first, let's find out about whether Georgia has a link to the D.C. area snipers.
CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman is outside an Atlanta liquor store where a shooting occurred in September.
Good afternoon, Gary, first of all.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, good afternoon to you.
NEVILLE: Gary, why don't you recap for us how authorities were able to connect this Atlanta shooting to the snipers.
TUCHMAN: OK. That's a good idea, because the news conference was a bit confusing.
But here's what we know. This is Sam's Package Store, a liquor store in the southern part of Atlanta. On the morning of September 20, shortly after midnight, it is believed the a man was inside this liquor store visiting a friend of his who works inside. As a matter of fact, his friend, a woman, is inside the store right now.
They both, apparently, according to the woman inside, saw a suspicious car outside, although the woman says she wasn't able to see what the car looked like. She says her friend went outside to look at the car. And, at that point, she heard two gunshots. She ran out. Her friend lay dying on the street. His name: Million Woldemarian. He is either 41 or 42 years old, an immigrant from Ethiopia, moved to Canada in 1977, then moved here to the United States about five or six years ago.
Now, according to police authorities, they have been able to take ballistics information from the pistol used in this shooting and match it up with a pistol that was found in Alabama about seven hours later after another shooting we're all familiar with in Montgomery, Alabama. There, a woman was killed, another woman wounded at another liquor store seven hours later.
Now, police found the pistol there. They don't believe the pistol was used in Alabama. They believe a rifle was used in Alabama, a rifle that matched up with the other shootings in Washington. But they found the pistol, compared the ballistics from that pistol to the pistol that was actually used here.
So, by process of elimination, they believe this shooting, the shooting in Alabama seven hours later, another shooting in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, two days after that, are all connected to the 13 shootings in the Washington, D.C. area that began nine days after the Louisiana shooting and 11 days after this shooting.
NEVILLE: Now, Gary, the lady who is working inside of the store now, a friend or a co-worker of the victim, was she able to tell you whether or not there were two people in this car?
TUCHMAN: No. She tells us this was her friend just paying a visit to her while she was working here by itself. It was a very quiet store. It was late at night.
But she says she doesn't know what the car looks like or who was in the car. All she know is that there was a suspicious car in the driveway late at night. She was concerned. She said her friend told her: "Please, don't go outside. I'll go outside and take a look." He came out, was shot twice, once in the head, once in the body, and died.
Through good police work -- and we just heard this during the news conference -- they were able to match the bullet here with the pistol that was found in Montgomery, Alabama.
NEVILLE: So it looks like perhaps no motive of robbery or anything like this, just someone being in an unfortunate situation, wrong place, wrong time, and kind of being a so-called good samaritan and trying to check the situation out.
TUCHMAN: Well, you bring up a good point, Arthel.
It's very rare that you have a shooting at this type of business that's not a robbery. And it makes us scratch our heads, because when you hear about a case like this, this happened here in the city of Atlanta before the Washington string all began. But this wasn't a huge local news story. Usually, you would consider it to be a huge local news story if someone shot for no reason, no robbery attempt, outside of a liquor store. But, as we saw, if this is linked to all these other shootings, these were all inexplicable.
NEVILLE: Gary, this is so unfortunate. Here a guy I think you said just coming to the United States just several years ago, and had to meet this unfortunate situation.
Again, tell me a little bit more about what the lady who works in the store, his friend, had to say about him, the victim? Tell us his name again if you would, too.
TUCHMAN: I would be happy to, Arthel.
By the way, the woman would who works inside this store is a little camera-shy. She didn't want her face to appear on camera. But we did talk to her and have her on audio on camera, which we'll play for you later.
But she did us that this man came from Ethiopia to Canada in 1977, moved to the Atlanta area in 1996, 19 years late. We're told that he was either 41 or 42 years old when shot. His name: Million Woldemarian. We're told he worked at a Wolf camera store. A friend of his came by a short time ago, also talked to reporters. He didn't want to appear on camera either. He said he was a wonderful man, a religious man. He came here to keep a friend company that night and ended up being a victim of a murder.
NEVILLE: OK, Gary Tuchman, thank you very much for the report.
And later this hour, Attorney General Ashcroft will have a news conference concerning federal charges against Malvo and Muhammad. Of course, we will bring you that live when it happens.
And right now, we're going to take a break.
And up next, have you been watching what the Democrats -- what happened to them? Well, tell me what you think is wrong with the party. Does it need a new leader or new leaders, a new message, or a new image? You can go ahead and give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN or, of course, you can e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com. Jesse Jackson joins us with some ideas.
And then later: Should this flag be put to a vote? It's the kind of thing that can make or break a governor. Maybe it already did.
I'll explain when TALKBACK LIVE continues. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE (voice-over): Today on TALKBACK LIVE:
SONNY PERDUE (R), GEORGIA GOVERNOR-ELECT: Free at last, free at last! Thank God, almighty, free at last!
NEVILLE: Was Georgia's governor-elect out of line when he used what some civil rights leaders consider sacred words? Also, what role did this flag play in the Georgia election? And could it come back to haunt Republicans?
The talk continues after this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Democrats are still reeling from Tuesday's crushing defeat. House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt is giving up his post in light of those losses. Was it the candidates, the message, the platforms? Were the voters, why were they turned off? And can Democrats do anything about it?
Here to talk about it is the Reverend Jesse Jackson, a former presidential candidate and founder of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.
Hello, Reverend Jackson. Good to see you.
REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: How do you do?
NEVILLE: All right.
And Peter Beinart, editor of "The New Republic."
Hey, Peter.
PETER BEINART, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Hi. Nice to be here.
NEVILLE: And syndicated columnist Terry Jeffrey.
Hi, Terry. He's also the editor of "Human Events."
I want to welcome all of you to the show.
Now, before we move on, I want to start by reading a portion of the letter Congressman Gephardt sent to the House today. He said: "I've concluded that in fairness to my friends and colleagues in the House, they need a leader for the next two years who can devote his or her undivided attention to putting our party back in the majority. It's time for me personally to take a different direction, look at the country's challenge from a different perspective and take on this president and the Republican Party from a different vantage point."
Peter Beinart, I'll begin with you.
Gephardt no longer wants to be House minority leader. Is this about the elections or personal political aspirations?
BEINART: Well, I think it's about both.
I think a lot of people expected he would do this afterwards, because he wants to run for president. And it's very difficult to run for president while you're also trying to lead the Democrats in the House. Unfortunately, for Gephardt, the new spin on this move after the elections is that it's not entirely clear that Gephardt would have been able to run uncontested again for House minority leader, because there's a lot of dissatisfaction about his inability to take back the House for the Democrats in four straight election cycles now. So, unfortunately, for him, this move now looks a little bit like an escape hatch from a guy who's career as the House leadership wasn't going so well.
NEVILLE: So, Terry, how do you see it?
TERRY JEFFREY, EDITOR, "HUMAN EVENTS": Well, I think unless there's -- Gephardt better give up on thinking he's going to be president in 2004, because, unless there's a dramatic shift in the direction of the country, George Bush is going to be reelected easily.
But the Democratic leader in Washington that should take the brunt of the blame for the Democratic disaster is Tom Daschle, the Senate leader, because what happened is, he was set up by the Republicans in Washington for this defeat. They passed through the House a number of bills that the president supported that are broadly popular in the country, making his tax cuts permanent, for example, the Homeless Security Department bill, that Tom Daschle blocked in the Senate.
And the president went out and made those the feature issues in this campaign and slam-dunked the Democrats because of what Daschle did in the Senate.
NEVILLE: Reverend Jackson?
JACKSON: I think the Democrats lost in part because of Bush's hard-working popularity, in the greater measure because of a blurred message in the crisis.
Mr. Bush came in office two years ago with a $1.5 trillion surplus, now a $200 billion deficit and rising, driving all states into deficit spending, cutting Medicare and public education and public transportation. And we've lost two million jobs in the last two years. We've gone from surplus to deficit in two years.
Humongous scandals: Enron and Halliburton and Harken. The workers have lost billions of dollars in pension funds and in 401(k) funds. These issues of great economic substance for common people were never discussed. And, so, fundamentally, Saddam may or may not come, but the jobs are leaving. And we should have run on that economic platform.
NEVILLE: Now, didn't the Democrats -- did they not highlight that, though? Because some people are saying that they did not focus on the whole Iraq situation. They should have and not talked so much about the economy.
JACKSON: Well, you have a combination.
On the one hand, people know that their pension funds matter. You now have got 65-year-old people going back looking for a job, because they've lost their 401(k). They've lost their pension. And the economy does matter. Democrats made two fundamental errors, in my judgment: one, the $1.5 trillion surplus. Some Democrats voted for a tax cut rather than reinvest in America, a fundamental breakaway from the base. The other is that agreeing to attack Iraq preemptively and unilaterally, risking global disaster -- when Wellstone took a position against that, his arrow went up. Durbin in Illinois, his arrow went up. So Democrats have an identity crisis about what matters in foreign policy and what priorities are in domestic policy.
NEVILLE: Let me bring up an e-mail right now and share this with you. It's from Alex in New Jersey. He says: "Unless Democrats return to their values and move away from middle-of-the-road politics, they will never gain a solid majority again. I have lost faith in them and will now vote Green."
And, Reverend Jackson, I don't mean to have an imbalance here in my guests, but I do want to go back to you on this and ask you if you feel the Democrats perhaps would be taking their voter base, their liberal voter base for granted?
JACKSON: Who is their base? Their base is organized labor. They choose wages for workers over tax cuts for a few. Who is our base? Women who want gender quality. Who is their base? African- Americans.
In Florida, Georgia, South and North Carolina, New York, Texas and Louisiana, Democrats lost the election, by fewer than the number of unregistered -- by fewer the number of registered uninformed black voters. They invested almost no money in turning out that part of their base. That's what I call an identity crisis.
NEVILLE: Terry, I think you wanted to jump in.
JEFFREY: Yes, Arthel, I would point that out one of the reasons the Democrats lost the Senate is because of organized labor and the pressure that big labor put on the Democrats not to pass a homeland security bill unless it has labor-union-type protections for federal workers. Its first job is to protect the security of Americans against terrorists.
If you read the speeches that President Bush gave in the last few weeks of this campaign, he went to state after state after state where there was a close election hitting the Democrats with precisely that issue. Democrats lost because they pandered to big labor, not because big labor didn't support them.
JACKSON: In 1986, when Mr. Reagan was a popular president, we pulled in two million new votes in my 1984 campaign. And across the South, in the height of Reagan's popularity, Democrats took the Senate back because new voters voted. This time, those who would Democrats in fact did not vote. And we lost by a margin of uninspired voters.
NEVILLE: Listen, I have to take a break.
Jeffrey, I haven't forgotten you, by the way.
Still ahead, I want to tell you why this flag, what it has to do with the governor-elect in Georgia, and a promise he made to voters.
TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Listen, as we do here on TALKBACK LIVE, we continue our discussions during the break. I want to share some of that with you. We're talking about elections.
And, Terry, you were saying what?
TERRY: I was saying that I don't understand what kind of change people want to see with this Republican revolution again, because it seems like, to me, the people that have been in control who have had the power are also responsible for the big scandals economically in the country. So what is it that they want to do that they haven't already been doing?
NEVILLE: And I think you also asked what does this mean to you and to the average American person?
JACKSON: Mr. Bush has not met with organized labor one time in two years. That is a message to working people. He has not met with the NAACP one time in two years, nor Ashcroft, a message to black people.
That is real polarization, economic polarization and race polarization. And we deserve a one-big-tent view of American government and justice.
NEVILLE: OK, listen.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang for a sec. I've got to go to the phones now, Florida. Richard is standing by.
You say what, sir?
CALLER: Yes.
First of all, I'm not a Democrat. After daddy Bush's reign, I consider myself to be an anti-Republican. I don't agree with all the Democratic viewpoints. However, I was hoping that the Democrats were going to save this country from this complete and total takeover by this, what seems to be a very harsh and corrupt government that we seem to have.
And, you know, I'm very surprised that they didn't try very hard. It seems like they had a lot of opportunities to exploit Enron, a lot of opportunities to exploit the massive giveaways after 9/11, and the fact that it seems like we're going to go to Iraq, whether we want to or not as a population. They didn't do any of this. They just sat there quiet, as if they wanted to lose. (CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: That's what I meant by identity crisis.
Some Democrats voted for the tax cut and therefore couldn't run against its disastrous impact. Some voted for the against Iraq war without a compelling case. So, in a confused identity, they lost, because two Republicans parties are illegal. One is enough.
NEVILLE: OK, Peter, I think you wanted to jump in. Go ahead.
BEINART: Yes, I think the caller is absolutely right.
The Democrats ran this race the way they ran the race in 2000 and 1998, on old standby issues like Social Security and prescription drugs. And they were confident because they thought they knew how to turn out their vote better. But America has changed radically in the last two years. It's changed because of this proposed war on Iraq and the war on terrorism. And it's changed because of the Bush tax cut.
And the Democratic Party, fundamentally, tried to say as little as possible about those two things as they could. The Democratic Party will not fundamentally return, I think, to strength until it finds something distinctive to say about the national security threat facing the United States. I think that has to include support for the war on Iraq, but it has to include other things as well.
A party that never talks about foreign policy and national security, when it's the most important thing to the country right now, will not be considered credible to Americans, who are still very anxious about the threat from abroad.
NEVILLE: OK, listen, I have to take a break right now.
Russ, I will get you when I come back.
And we are still waiting for a news conference from Attorney General John Ashcroft on the sniper investigation. We're going to bring that live to you when it happens.
And when we come back: What did Georgia's governor-elect say to anger civil rights leaders? And what did the Confederate flag have to do with his upset victory in the governor's race?
We're going to talk about that when we come back. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: OK, Michael (ph), in California, thanks so much for sending in that e-mail. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
We're continuing this discussion here on what happened on election night to the Democrats. And Heather, you're saying what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a problem with people saying that the Democrats are only focusing on Medicare, they're only focusing on Social Security and they need to be supporting the country and the Republicans in the foreign policy and the homeland security. But I think the problem with the economy right now is that President Bush only focuses on homeland security.
And when the economy takes a downturn, he's now turning around and making press conferences and saying, well, we need to build up the economy. Well, he's the only one that's focusing on homeland security.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Jeffrey, do you want to jump in here?
TERRY JEFFREY, EDITOR, "HUMAN EVENTS": Yes. The problem with the economy for the Democrats is that the economy was not doing bad. They were talking the economy down, they were actually rooting for a double dip recession that didn't show up.
The week before the election, we found out the economy grew at a 3.1 percent base in the third quarter. Inflation was down. Interest rates were down.
Unemployment did not spike this month. It was 5.7 percent, which, by the way, is the average it held through the '90s when Bill Clinton was President. So the reason the economic issue didn't work for the Democrats, is because they wanted to raise taxes and the economy is doing well and people are not upset about Bush's leadership on the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
JESSE JACKSON? Are you saying that we're better off economically than we were two years ago? Are you saying that?
JEFFREY: Absolutely, Jesse Jackson. If you want to check the statistics put out by Bill Clinton's government, we started into recession when Bill Clinton was still in office. We then cut taxes with George Bush's leadership.
And despite September 11 and the impact it had on the economy, we grew out of recession in the post September 11 period. The economy is growing, unemployment is staying down, interest rates are down, inflation is down. Those are the economic facts you have to deal with.
JACKSON: Two million unemployed workers would not agree with you.
JEFFREY: Well, that's not good. We'd like to have everybody employed, Reverend Jackson. But the truth is, it's a fact that the unemployment rate right now is 5.7 percent. That's what it averaged when Bill Clinton was president. And you weren't complaining about it then, because you're economic complaints are partisan not based on reality.
JACKSON: Poverty is up and unemployment is up.
NEVILLE: OK. You know what I want to do here, is I want to take a poll of the audience. You've been listening to this conversation. I want to hear what the people have to say about this.
If you think the economy is better now than it was before, go ahead and applaud. If you think the economy is worse off now than it was before.
OK, Russ (ph), let me go ahead and start with you. You say the economy is better now. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel it's turning around. I mean, I'm from the northeast, of upstate New York, and it's in the pits. But it's not as bad today as it was six months ago. Things are starting to change around.
I live in the Corning area, which is Corning glass. And they Just laid off another 2,000 people up there. And it's turning around.
I mean, it's like you're on the bottom of the ocean, and there's only one place to go now. And that's going back up. Your stock market is starting to go back up, and the economy follows the stock market up. Everybody gets an extra dollar in their pocket.
NEVILLE: OK, let me go ahead -- Peter.
PETER BEINART, THE NEW REPUBLIC: But most Americans think the economy is bad and getting worse. They disagree with Terry Jeffrey.
JEFFREY: That's why they voted Republican on Tuesday.
BEINART: No, they didn't vote on that issue.
JEFFREY: Oh yes they did.
BEINART: But the polls are overwhelming on that regard. You can't. I mean it's obvious.
JEFFREY: No. The polls put the Republicans and a majority in the Senate in midterm election. They should have lost.
BEINART: Sure, but it wasn't because of the economy.
JEFFREY: They increased the Republican representatives in the House, never done before in the history of the country. The president stumped every close state talking about the economy, talking about his tax cuts, talking about the fact the Democrats wouldn't make it permanent. Tom Daschle...
(CROSSTALK)
BEINART: He didn't talk about not making the tax cut permanent. That's nonsense. JEFFREY: The reality is the economy is growing. That's a fact. The Democrats didn't want to deal with it, they paid for it politically.
BEINART: Well most Americans disagree with that.
NEVILLE: OK. And listen, let me jump in here now, because I want to talk to Reverend Jackson about one other point. I understand that Reverend Al Sharpton believes there needs to be moved leadership amongst the Democrats. What do you think?
JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), leadership, it is very early to determine who that will be. Congressional leadership, for example, Gephardt stepped down as the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who will do that. The DNC leadership may be challenged. The Senate leadership may be challenged.
Maybe in election 2004, since a lot of kind of moving (ph) around as to who will emerge and what group of leaders, there obviously must be a change in Democrat leadership and change the course with a clearer message.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, I want to move on now. The Democrats were stunned in Georgia when Republican Sonny Purdue unseated Governor Roy Barnes. It was the first time a Republican had won the governorship in 130 years, but the governor-elect already is clashing with civil rights leaders who say he was more than insensitive during this outburst of joy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SONNY PURDUE (R), GOVERNOR ELECT, GEORGIA: I think there's an old expression, free at last, free at last, thank god, almighty, free at last.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Once again, Reverend Jackson, I'm going to start with you on that for obvious reasons. I want to ask if you think these comments or this reaction was inappropriate or did he have the right to say that?
JACKSON: He had the right to say it, but it seems to be a mockery. I mean free of what? Free to fly the confederate flag again? Free to end affirmative action? Free to cut back on equal pay for women.
I mean it was not in his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to, in effect, quote that was not the king had made famous. He's free to say it. It seemed to have been a mockery. That's why many people feel insulted.
NEVILLE: Hey Terry, what do you think about this?
JEFFREY: Listen, I think that civil rights leaders should be glad that in 2002 a white Republican governor of Georgia will stand up and approvingly use the words of Martin Luther King. And, in fact, Sonny Purdue has said he admires Martin Luther King and admires his message.
And I can tell you one of my favorite quotes that I like to use is from the Reverend Martin Luther King's letter from the Birmingham jail, where he quotes St. Augustine of St. Thomas Aquinas and he says that a just law is a law that accords with the law of god. An unjust is a law that does not accord with the law of god.
And just like the Jim Crow laws in Birmingham and in Georgia in the 1950s and '60s and before that did not accord with the law of god, the abortion laws in this country, including in Georgia today, do not accord with the law of god. And Sonny Purdue is on the good side of that civil rights battle and Jesse Jackson and the outgoing Governor Barnes are not.
BEINART: Look, this quote from Roy Barnes is terrific for the Democratic Party. And I can guarantee you, in the White House right now, they're gnashing their teeth over it. Because it reminds people, when a Republican governor of Georgia, when everybody who knows anything about politics in the state of Georgia know the Republican Party in Georgia has re-created itself in the post civil rights era by being the party of anti civil rights.
JEFFREY: That's not true.
BEINART: Oh, come on. Everyone uses that phrase and then says we're going to have a referendum on the confederate flag. Don't be naive, Terry. We know what's going on here. And the Democratic Party, if they didn't get their base out last time, they will next it out next time, where people like that are around (ph).
JACKSON: To me, the tragedy of this is that, in Georgia, 60 percent of all Georgians make less than $20,000 year and half of them make less than $10,000. So rather than focus on the American flag, which unites us, debating the confederate flag (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that war is over, and not focus at all on 60 percent of all Georgians make less than $20,000 a year. That's an issue that really matters and should be a matter of debate.
JEFFREY: And the Democrats want to raise your taxes. And I believe this is effort...
JACKSON: Raise wages, not taxes.
JEFFREY: ... to retroactively -- excuse me -- this is an effort to retroactively racialize the election...
BEINART: By Democrats?
JEFFREY: Yes.
BEINART: Who's putting the confederate flag on the ballot? Sonny Purdue is...
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JEFFREY: Let me finish my thought. One of the best things about this election is it lacks a degree of racial demagoguery and polarization that we've seen in previous elections, particularly from the Democratic party. Now retroactively that the Democrats have lost, these issues are being raised in an effort to polarize the country again. It's wrong.
NEVILLE: Let me jump in here and get Neil (ph) from Connecticut to speak out. Go ahead, Neil (ph).
CALLER: Reverend Jackson, I'm a huge fan. I love the work that you've done, but here we go again, where just because some words have come out of the mouth of a famous black leader, they're sacred somehow. We're as much off target here with this as we were talking about the "Barbershop" movie a few weeks back.
You know just because it came out of the mouth of a black person does not make these words sacred. The next thing you know, if everything that a black leader is thought to have said at some point, a beloved black leader, if those words are suddenly going to become sacred, the next words that are going to become sacred are, I did not have sex with that woman.
JACKSON: The fact is, he has a right to say it. It comes off as a mockery. And, frankly, his "free at last" statement in the end does not deal with the economic and educational substance. More important than that, the confederate flag will re-divide us again. We should be rallying behind the American flag, not divided by the confederate flag. One flag is enough for one nation.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, we have to take a break right now. I want to remind you that we're waiting for a news conference from Attorney General John Ashcroft on the sniper investigation. We're going to bring that live to you when it happens. And coming back, what did the confederate flag that we're talking about here have to do with Purdue's win in Georgia?
We're going to discuss that when we come back, so don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
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NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
The new Georgia state flag seems to have had something to do with the defeat of Governor Barnes. Barnes was responsible for getting rid of the old flag, which prominently featured the confederate emblem. But some Georgia voters thought Barnes should have had a referendum, and they held their own referendum on the governor.
Apparently they believe the old flag might still wave under Purdue. And Peter, I'll start with you on this one. That Purdue, in fact, is calling for a statewide vote to let the people decide what to do with the flag. Is this a good move or could it backfire with perhaps the Democrats here?
BEINART: Well, I think it's not a good move. And this is what's so laughable about Terry saying that the Democrats are injecting race into this. When you come to office after a long painstaking process, bipartisan in the Georgia state legislature and with the governor when they've gotten rid of the flag, and you say you want to hold a referendum on it, you have to be incredibly naive to think that this guy is not re-injecting race into Georgia politics because he thinks it's going to help him with white voters.
He actually might be right, but in the long term -- and I'm going to give a little bit of credit to George W. Bush here. In the long term, if the Republican Party is going to have a future, it's going to have to get away from the racial politics that have been a staple of its appeal in the south. And I think Sonny Purdue in that regard is a very unfortunate throwback.
JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) represents secession from the U.S., slavery and segregation. And they lost that war and the union won. Thus, we have a United States.
We have soldiers today in foreign countries. They're all operating under the American flag. We who love America should choose the American flag that unites us, and not the confederate flag that divides us. And that's not an issue of black and white. It's almost an issue of loyalty versus lack of it.
NEVILLE: Let me get this gentleman, Stone (ph), to stand up for me. And tell me what you are thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm thinking that we have a governor that has not even made it to office and already he's showing his true colors. He won't make it.
NEVILLE: But some are saying that's how he got put in to office, that the folks in rural Georgia came out to vote against Barnes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It won't last. That, I'm confident of.
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
JACKSON: Even if in the next election blacks come alive and blacks and whites together defeat the flag issue, it's still divisive. How can we -- you could not have the Atlanta Braves and the Atlanta Hawks, the Falcons, the -- the new south united around the American flag. The new south came around racial reconciliation.
That flag symbolizes separation and segregation and slavery and sedition. We should know better than that in the year 2002.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Jeffrey -- I mean Terry. Excuse me.
JEFFREY: I'll agree with Jesse Jackson on this score, I think all Americans have to look to our national flag. That we have to look at what unites us as a people beyond race and any other consideration. And that we don't want any political issue that's going to unnecessarily divide us along those lines.
However, I think this emphasis on this flag issue is actually a Democratic and liberal tactic to divide us, not to unite us. And the fact is, if you look at the election returns in Georgia -- you folks are sitting right there in Atlanta -- the reason Mr. Purdue was elected governor is because he did better in the suburbs of Atlanta than Republicans running for governor have done in the past. And as you people know, right there in Atlanta, the suburbs in Atlanta aren't filled with old southerners, they're filled with a lot of people that have moved to Georgia from other states in the last couple of decades.
BEINART: Hey, what percentage of the black vote did Sonny Purdue get? Come on. Did he get five percent?
NEVILLE: OK, listen, what I'm going to do right now is call up an e-mail and share that with you. Let's see. It's from Susan (ph) in Texas.
"The rebel flag was not meant as a racist symbol. It was meant to show southern pride. How many times does that have to be said? Some people are determined not to hear that."
JACKSON: It flew over slavery. It flew over that which divided our nation. More Americans died in the Civil War than World War I or II. And when you lose the war, the vanquished must submit their properties. That flag should be in the museum, not flying almost coequal with the American flag.
It clearly, as a symbol, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that divides Americans. No American in Afghanistan today will wave that flag, and should not. One America, one flag.
NEVILLE: Interesting. Let me come over here, Terry (ph). Stand up. You're from South Carolina. You're jumping to get in it here. Go ahead, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we had this issue in South Carolina, flag flying over the state house, and it came down. But what a lot of people don't remember is when that flag first went up on the state house, and I believe the year was 1962, and you tell me that wasn't a message to people in the state of South Carolina? When the flag was put in the state house in 1962, right in the height of the civil rights era?
JACKSON: It did not fly from 1863 until 1956 in Georgia. They began to fly the flag again as an ally of segregation against Martin Luther King, who was from Atlanta, Georgia. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) resurrection of that flag as symbol of southern loyalty was the southern way of life that was divided.
We can't have the new south in all of its glory and the old south a racial division. You can't reconcile it. You can't have it both ways.
NEVILLE: Hey, listen, Reverend Jackson, we're waiting for that news conference from Ashcroft. But, in the meantime, I want to ask you something about the Democrats. Getting back to that.
Listen, if, in fact, the Democrats took their voter base for granted, what can they do to gain back their confidence? JACKSON: In 1986, the respected Republicans that went (ph) in to keep the Senate, Mr. Reagan was a very popular president at that time, we put on two million new voters in '84 and Democrats took the Senate back. Even guys like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Georgia got 32 percent of his vote was white, he still won it.
This time around, the basic black alliance in the party was not informed, inspired and vested in. We lost...
NEVILLE: Why is that?
JACKSON: Well, because party leadership underestimated. Democrats want the vote but not the relationship. That's why they call it an identity crisis. The Democratic Party is black, white, male, female, Hispanic and labor. It must honor its base.
If Georgia Tech were playing University of Georgia in a football game, you should not spend your time if you go to Georgia Tech trying to keep Georgia from being angry. Inspire your base. Don't try to make the other base quiet.
The Democrats did not inspire their base and paid a huge price for it on Tuesday.
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, you know what, I have an e-mail coming in now that I want to share with everybody. It's actually regarding the flag. It's from Daniel (ph) in Georgia.
He says, "The changing of the flag isn't the issue. It's the matter in which the flag was changed. The Democrats knew that if citizens had voted that the flag would not be changed."
JACKSON: Explain that. What does that mean?
NEVILLE: I wish Daniel (ph) were on the phone and he could tell us what he meant. Let me see -- go ahead, sir. Stand up for me. I think you wanted to say something on this subject.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were talking about the confederate flag flying over slavery. The stars and stripes flew over more slaves than the confederate battle flag ever flew over. The battle flag, as we call it, the confederate flag, is nothing but a rally flag.
NEVILLE: Rallied for what and for whom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A rally for the troops when they were in the heat of battle.
NEVILLE: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the Civil War.
BEINART: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war between the states, my mistake.
NEVILLE: Battling for what, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war between the states in the battle.
JACKSON: To maintain slavery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Slavery was brought into the issue much later. Much later.
BEINART: The point is that the American flag, while it might have flown over slavery, was also the flag that liberated people from slavery. The confederate flag did not. That's the fundamental divide.
JACKSON: It is amazing that in the year 2002 we're debating about which flag should fly over the United States.
NEVILLE: OK. Reverend Jackson, excuse me right now.
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