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American Morning
Interview with Con Coughlin
Aired November 08, 2002 - 07:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back to the topic of Iraq right now. Washington predicting victory later today on securing a new U.N. resolution regarding Baghdad. With France on board and Russia inching closer to approval, little appears right now to be standing in the way of its passage.
How is Iraq reacting to this in the ultimate chess game?
Rula Amin now reporting live in Baghdad with more -- Rula, what have you heard?
Good afternoon.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill.
Actually, it's Jane.
But what we just heard moments ago from Iraq's trade minister, Mohammed Mehdi Saleh, is that this is essentially the same resolution, that it's nothing new and there's no need, indeed, for a resolution. Now, that has been Iraq's position, but that's rhetoric, it seems. Iraq is making clear that it still has strong reservations. But there is still the expectation that it will eventually accept this resolution. It really doesn't have any choice.
Now, the official media today is silent on the resolution. It, many of them have articles about President Saddam Hussein, one of them saying that he is healthy, fit and armed, an army reference to those who are ready for battle, which is the other message that Iraq is getting across. If it comes to war, it says, it is ready -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jane, thank you.
Jane Arraf reporting in Baghdad.
I apologize about the name there. We'll get it right, though.
Jane, thank you.
Is there anything in his past, Saddam Hussein's past, that might tell us how he may react in the event of military action? How much do we truly know about the man? Saddam's rise to power detailed now in a new biography. Its author, Con Coughlin, is with us now here in New York City.
Nice to see you.
Good morning.
CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: In a society that is very secretive, for a leader who is described in many ways as paranoid, how does a guy from London get such incredible access?
COUGHLIN: Well, it hasn't been easy, actually. I mean it's a bit like prosecutors who are trying to put together a case against a criminal gangster. Saddam has killed a lot of the people who know his secrets and it's taken me about three or four years of scourging Europe and the Middle East to find people who know Saddam's secrets and have given me unprecedented access.
HEMMER: And these are dissidents who basically have fled the country?
COUGHLIN: Yes...
HEMMER: Some in the '70s and some as early as when?
COUGHLIN: The last came out in 2000.
HEMMER: So that's two years ago?
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: What did they tell you about what they are learning and, in turn, you're learning, as well, about military plans and secrets that Iraq and Saddam Hussein may have on the table right now?
COUGHLIN: Well, Saddam is basically planning a sort of last stand. And I suppose the first thing is that he's ordered his second son, Qusay, to conceal what's left of his weapons of mass destruction. As I say in the book, Qusay was responsible in the '90s for concealing all the weapons of mass destruction under swimming pools in presidential palaces and all things like, all this kind of thing.
And there's a very detailed structure by which they did this. Of course, it's fallen into abeyance since '98 when the inspectors left. But they're going back. I don't think, I mean Saddam is now saying that this resolution is the law of the jungle. I think that shows how seriously he's taking it. He wants to conceal his weapons.
I imagine this is going to lead to conflict. I don't want to see a war, but I think that's the road we're on and he is making preparations for war at the same time. He's ordered his pilots to form suicide squads to attack neighboring countries. He's fitting...
HEMMER: Neighboring countries meaning Israel?
COUGHLIN: Well, the Gulf states. Well, Israel. Also, the Gulf states -- Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, where the Americans have big bases, the oil fields in Saudi Arabia. We just have to remember, look at what he did to Kuwait. When he was force to withdraw from Kuwait, his attitude was, well, if I can't have it, they can't. And he destroyed it. He trashed it. He set the oil fields on fire. Every building was trashed. I saw it when I went in there.
If he's going to be forced out of Baghdad, that's the kind of mentality he's going to have -- if I can't have Iraq, well, then nobody else is going to have it.
HEMMER: Hang on a second, though. If you're sending suicide pilots on missions with airplanes, what do you arm or equip the airplane with?
COUGHLIN: With biological and chemical weapons.
HEMMER: Can they, they have the ability to deliver that right now?
COUGHLIN: I think that's fairly straightforward. They certainly have stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. When the last inspectors came out in '98, they produced a report at the U.N. and it detailed the amount of chemical weapons, biological weapons that Saddam still has.
HEMMER: You described this man as modeling his life after Adolph Hitler.
COUGHLIN: Yes.
HEMMER: After Joseph Stalin.
COUGHLIN: Yes.
HEMMER: In what way?
COUGHLIN: He draws his nationalism from Hitler. The most formative influence on his life was his uncle Tyrella (ph), who was actually jailed by the British for his Nazi sympathies. And this man basically brought Saddam up. Later, when Saddam joined the Baath Party and he was imprisoned for his political activities, he studied the life of Stalin. And the moment he took power in Iraq, he basically Stalinized Iraq. He set up this ferocious security apparatus which has kept him in power for literally, you're talking about years.
HEMMER: From 1979ish.
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: As, we just saw him as a young man. You describe him as a kid who grew up with an inferiority complex.
COUGHLIN: A terrible inferiority complex.
HEMMER: How so? How did this develop and how did it manifest itself into adulthood?
COUGHLIN: Well, it, he was brought up in extreme poverty. Also, his father left the family home soon after he was born. And for most of his childhood, he was accused of being illegitimate, which is a terrible stigma in Arab society. He also had a very poor education. As a young boy, he wants to follow his uncle into the Iraqi Army, but he didn't have the educational qualifications. And so he wasn't accepted for military training.
When he became president, he appointed himself field marshal. When his generals did well, he had them executed because he was jealous of them. And all these childhood insecurities have almost taken over his life when he assumed presidential power.
HEMMER: Take that same argument and put it into his life today. He's 65, right?
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: Yes, mid-60s, roughly?
COUGHLIN: He celebrates his 65th birthday in April.
HEMMER: OK, if that's the case, now what about his own security right now? Have you learned much about how he plans on protecting himself in the event of conflict or is this a man who would seek exile and leave the country?
COUGHLIN: Well, one of the things that came through clearly when I was researching the book and talking to people who had worked with him and grown up with him in the Baath Party, was just how paranoid he was. And even in the '70s, access to him was deeply restricted.
That's just got worse now. Today, his own sons, who are very senior people in the regime, have to write to him asking permission to see him. It can take six weeks before they get a reply. That's the level of paranoia that's governing this regime. He's terrified of his own sons.
HEMMER: In terms of religion, how would you describe him? Is he hard core in any way when it comes to his own religious beliefs within the Islamic world?
COUGHLIN: Saddam is an opportunist. He's not really a devout Muslim. But when it suits him, he portrays himself as a Muslim leader. And I think when your correspondents go to Baghdad, they see all these pictures of Saddam the nation builder, the general, Saddam the religious leader. By nature he's a womanizer, a whiskey drinker. But as I say, when it suits him, particularly when the Iranians are playing up, he goes off to the mosque and says well, actually, I'm a great Islamic leader.
HEMMER: The book is "King of Terror." The author is Con Coughlin.
Thanks for stopping by.
Quickly, are we going to war or not?
COUGHLIN: It looks like it, yes, in January.
HEMMER: Hope you're wrong.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 8, 2002 - 07:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back to the topic of Iraq right now. Washington predicting victory later today on securing a new U.N. resolution regarding Baghdad. With France on board and Russia inching closer to approval, little appears right now to be standing in the way of its passage.
How is Iraq reacting to this in the ultimate chess game?
Rula Amin now reporting live in Baghdad with more -- Rula, what have you heard?
Good afternoon.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill.
Actually, it's Jane.
But what we just heard moments ago from Iraq's trade minister, Mohammed Mehdi Saleh, is that this is essentially the same resolution, that it's nothing new and there's no need, indeed, for a resolution. Now, that has been Iraq's position, but that's rhetoric, it seems. Iraq is making clear that it still has strong reservations. But there is still the expectation that it will eventually accept this resolution. It really doesn't have any choice.
Now, the official media today is silent on the resolution. It, many of them have articles about President Saddam Hussein, one of them saying that he is healthy, fit and armed, an army reference to those who are ready for battle, which is the other message that Iraq is getting across. If it comes to war, it says, it is ready -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jane, thank you.
Jane Arraf reporting in Baghdad.
I apologize about the name there. We'll get it right, though.
Jane, thank you.
Is there anything in his past, Saddam Hussein's past, that might tell us how he may react in the event of military action? How much do we truly know about the man? Saddam's rise to power detailed now in a new biography. Its author, Con Coughlin, is with us now here in New York City.
Nice to see you.
Good morning.
CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: In a society that is very secretive, for a leader who is described in many ways as paranoid, how does a guy from London get such incredible access?
COUGHLIN: Well, it hasn't been easy, actually. I mean it's a bit like prosecutors who are trying to put together a case against a criminal gangster. Saddam has killed a lot of the people who know his secrets and it's taken me about three or four years of scourging Europe and the Middle East to find people who know Saddam's secrets and have given me unprecedented access.
HEMMER: And these are dissidents who basically have fled the country?
COUGHLIN: Yes...
HEMMER: Some in the '70s and some as early as when?
COUGHLIN: The last came out in 2000.
HEMMER: So that's two years ago?
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: What did they tell you about what they are learning and, in turn, you're learning, as well, about military plans and secrets that Iraq and Saddam Hussein may have on the table right now?
COUGHLIN: Well, Saddam is basically planning a sort of last stand. And I suppose the first thing is that he's ordered his second son, Qusay, to conceal what's left of his weapons of mass destruction. As I say in the book, Qusay was responsible in the '90s for concealing all the weapons of mass destruction under swimming pools in presidential palaces and all things like, all this kind of thing.
And there's a very detailed structure by which they did this. Of course, it's fallen into abeyance since '98 when the inspectors left. But they're going back. I don't think, I mean Saddam is now saying that this resolution is the law of the jungle. I think that shows how seriously he's taking it. He wants to conceal his weapons.
I imagine this is going to lead to conflict. I don't want to see a war, but I think that's the road we're on and he is making preparations for war at the same time. He's ordered his pilots to form suicide squads to attack neighboring countries. He's fitting...
HEMMER: Neighboring countries meaning Israel?
COUGHLIN: Well, the Gulf states. Well, Israel. Also, the Gulf states -- Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, where the Americans have big bases, the oil fields in Saudi Arabia. We just have to remember, look at what he did to Kuwait. When he was force to withdraw from Kuwait, his attitude was, well, if I can't have it, they can't. And he destroyed it. He trashed it. He set the oil fields on fire. Every building was trashed. I saw it when I went in there.
If he's going to be forced out of Baghdad, that's the kind of mentality he's going to have -- if I can't have Iraq, well, then nobody else is going to have it.
HEMMER: Hang on a second, though. If you're sending suicide pilots on missions with airplanes, what do you arm or equip the airplane with?
COUGHLIN: With biological and chemical weapons.
HEMMER: Can they, they have the ability to deliver that right now?
COUGHLIN: I think that's fairly straightforward. They certainly have stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. When the last inspectors came out in '98, they produced a report at the U.N. and it detailed the amount of chemical weapons, biological weapons that Saddam still has.
HEMMER: You described this man as modeling his life after Adolph Hitler.
COUGHLIN: Yes.
HEMMER: After Joseph Stalin.
COUGHLIN: Yes.
HEMMER: In what way?
COUGHLIN: He draws his nationalism from Hitler. The most formative influence on his life was his uncle Tyrella (ph), who was actually jailed by the British for his Nazi sympathies. And this man basically brought Saddam up. Later, when Saddam joined the Baath Party and he was imprisoned for his political activities, he studied the life of Stalin. And the moment he took power in Iraq, he basically Stalinized Iraq. He set up this ferocious security apparatus which has kept him in power for literally, you're talking about years.
HEMMER: From 1979ish.
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: As, we just saw him as a young man. You describe him as a kid who grew up with an inferiority complex.
COUGHLIN: A terrible inferiority complex.
HEMMER: How so? How did this develop and how did it manifest itself into adulthood?
COUGHLIN: Well, it, he was brought up in extreme poverty. Also, his father left the family home soon after he was born. And for most of his childhood, he was accused of being illegitimate, which is a terrible stigma in Arab society. He also had a very poor education. As a young boy, he wants to follow his uncle into the Iraqi Army, but he didn't have the educational qualifications. And so he wasn't accepted for military training.
When he became president, he appointed himself field marshal. When his generals did well, he had them executed because he was jealous of them. And all these childhood insecurities have almost taken over his life when he assumed presidential power.
HEMMER: Take that same argument and put it into his life today. He's 65, right?
COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.
HEMMER: Yes, mid-60s, roughly?
COUGHLIN: He celebrates his 65th birthday in April.
HEMMER: OK, if that's the case, now what about his own security right now? Have you learned much about how he plans on protecting himself in the event of conflict or is this a man who would seek exile and leave the country?
COUGHLIN: Well, one of the things that came through clearly when I was researching the book and talking to people who had worked with him and grown up with him in the Baath Party, was just how paranoid he was. And even in the '70s, access to him was deeply restricted.
That's just got worse now. Today, his own sons, who are very senior people in the regime, have to write to him asking permission to see him. It can take six weeks before they get a reply. That's the level of paranoia that's governing this regime. He's terrified of his own sons.
HEMMER: In terms of religion, how would you describe him? Is he hard core in any way when it comes to his own religious beliefs within the Islamic world?
COUGHLIN: Saddam is an opportunist. He's not really a devout Muslim. But when it suits him, he portrays himself as a Muslim leader. And I think when your correspondents go to Baghdad, they see all these pictures of Saddam the nation builder, the general, Saddam the religious leader. By nature he's a womanizer, a whiskey drinker. But as I say, when it suits him, particularly when the Iranians are playing up, he goes off to the mosque and says well, actually, I'm a great Islamic leader.
HEMMER: The book is "King of Terror." The author is Con Coughlin.
Thanks for stopping by.
Quickly, are we going to war or not?
COUGHLIN: It looks like it, yes, in January.
HEMMER: Hope you're wrong.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
