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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
U.N. Votes on Iraq Resolution; Sniper Suspects To Be Tried in Virginia
Aired November 8, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN HOST, TALKBACK LIVE: But before we get to that, I want to talk about this morning's quick vote on Iraq. After months of haggling and foot-dragging, the United Nations, today, approved a resolution on Iraq and the vote was unanimous. That's right.
CNN Senior United Nations Correspondent Richard Roth joins us now from outside the United Nations building.
Good afternoon - Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, the street is behind me. I'm inside the headquarters, just two floors above where the Security Council, a few hours ago, voted unanimously, 15-0, as you noted, starts to put the pressure on Iraq and Saddam Hussein. The message, disarm, or as President Bush indicated, the U.S. might lead a coalition to achieve that goal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: ... the full disarmament of weapons of mass destruction by Iraq will occur. The only question for the Iraqi regime is to decide how. The United States prefers that Iraq meet its obligations voluntarily. Yet we are prepared for the alternative. In either case, the just demands of the world will be met.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The clock may be ticking now. The United Nations weapons inspectors will arrive in Baghdad to set up a headquarters on November 18. It won't take long before more teams are there.
But first, Iraq must comply with the resolution within seven days, and the it has 30 days in which to turn over all information about its program about its program of weapons of mass destruction, something Iraq denies it does have - Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK. Now, Richard, let's talk about the concessions that the U.S. made for the reluctant countries, France, Russia and China?
ROTH: Well, the big concession was in the wording of the language, international jargon. But basically, Russia and France had some of their fears eased because the U.S. guaranteed another meeting of the Security Council, more consultations and discussions, if the weapons inspectors run into problems and report violations. But Washington still has made it clear it holds the military card and it can go on its own, no matter what is said here in New York.
NEVILLE: Hmm. OK, Richard Roth, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
All right. It's time to meet our "Free-For-All Friday" panel. Dan Flynn is author of "Why the Left Hates America."
Hey, Dan.
DAN FLYNN, AUTHOR, "WHY THE LEFT HATES AMERICA": How are you doing, Arthel?
NEVILLE: Hey, Curtis Ellis. He's up next. He is the correspondent for i.e. America Radio Network.
Hi there, Curtis.
CURTIS ELLIS, CORRESPONDENT, I.E. AMERICA RADIO NETWORK: Hello. Hi, Arthel.
NEVILLE: All right! And Scott West is the afternoon drive-time host for classic R&B on the ABC Radio Network.
Hey, Scott.
SCOTT WEST, HOST, ABC RADIO NETWORK: How are you doing, Arthel?
NEVILLE: Good. Nice to see you.
WEST: Good seeing you.
NEVILLE: All right. And Martha Zoller is host of the "Martha Zoller Show" on WDUN Newstalk Radio here in Atlanta.
Hi, Martha.
MARTHA ZOLLER, HOST, "MARTHA ZOLLER SHOW," WDUN: Hey, Arthel. Good to be here.
NEVILLE: Good. Glad to have you.
Welcome to all of you.
All right, Dan, you're going to be up first. A unanimous approval from the UN, does this give Bush too much power, or is this just a validation that he needed?
FLYNN: Well, I think what it shows is how much of a Mickey Mouse outfit the UN is. This is the 16th or 17th time that they've passed such a resolution. And each time, they've done nothing to force Iraq to comply. So leaving the two parties out of it, Iraq and the United States, I think what it shows, more than anything else, the failures of multilateralism and how much the UN is really a toothless tiger. NEVILLE: So what's going to happen then? So you're saying that Saddam's going to see this resolution, he'll have the UN inspectors come back in and say, so what?
FLYNN: Well, I hope there's a peaceful resolution, but don't - I'm not too optimistic about it. Let's put it that way. I think Bush is serious. And there will probably be some military action because I don't think Saddam will comply. He hasn't in the past. Why should he now?
NEVILLE: Hm. Curtis?
ELLIS: Well, I think Mr. Flynn's characterization of the UN as Mickey Mouse shows that the right wing wackos (ph) would like us to forget the UN, withdraw from the UN, but the reality of the world today is that we have to work with diplomacy, even if it ends up meaning war. Because the day after we win in Baghdad, we're going to need the UN the same way we need them in Afghanistan, elsewhere as peacekeeping operations and whatnot to help rebuild this country.
So we go through the motions. Yes, they gave us the authority, Bush can say, to go in and do whatever we want. But still, we use diplomacy and the UN to provide a fig leaf for what I do believe is an almost inevitable war.
NEVILLE: Scott?
WEST: I think that the council has been paying close attention to what's been happening in Congress and what kind of cooperation Bush has or has not been getting from both the Republican and Democratic sides of Congress.
And now that Tuesday changed that landscape dramatically, I think they realized he's got a lot more support than he had when he was initiating their call for this resolution. And now that they unanimously backed him on this, I think they recognize the fact that he's got the kind of support he needs to get the American people behind him, and, therefore, they decided, well, we need to get behind him, too.
NEVILLE: Hm. What do you think, Martha?
ZOLLER: You know, Arthel, I think this whole thing just shows the brilliance of President Bush again. While everybody was saying that he couldn't get done, he was going to go without the UN, what did he do? He went to the UN and he won them over. He got to work with them, and he certainly didn't get everything he wanted, but he got another resolution.
And I don't think Iraq will comply. But he has been able to get most of what he wants all the time. And he's going to go forward, and he can say to the people that were concerned about peace, hey, I gave it every shot that I could, and he got what he wanted ultimately.
NEVILLE: OK. But then you said that - what did you just say about Saddam or Iraq, Martha? ZOLLER: Oh, I don't think the Saddam is going to comply.
NEVILLE: So then how is he going to deal with this ultimatum?
ZOLLER: Well, he will then use military force at that point in time, if he needs to. And it's not going to be unilateral. There are a lot of people that are on the same page with us and they'll go with us.
NEVILLE: No, Saddam. How had he going to...
ZOLLER: Oh, what is Saddam going to do about it?
NEVILLE: Yes.
ZOLLER: Well, Saddam is gong to pretend to comply, to start off with. People will get in there; he'll start messing with them and then they'll leave. And I think that's probably what will happen.
ELLIS: Arthel, I think that Ms. Zoller there may have the prognostication correct. It's going to be a little rope-a-dope strategy by Saddam Hussein, and eventually, somebody's going to get tired of this and send in the troops.
But this is exactly the way it's supposed to work. You're supposed to work with the UN. You're supposed to at least give the impression that we're working with other countries and not just going it alone because we don't want other countries to just go it alone.
NEVILLE: Yes, but...
FLYNN: But why should we care what a country like Syria has to say, a country that is run by a dictator? Why should we - most countries in the world are not...
ELLIS: Well, why should we care what Saudi Arabia has to say? They're run by a dictator too!
FLYNN: We shouldn't. We shouldn't. But that's the whole problem with the UN is that you have an organization that is comprised primarily of countries that are not Democratic, that do not have self- government. And so I don't know that we should take their word as representative of their people's word.
ZOLLER: Well, but there's really two parts...
FLYNN: That's the problem with the UN.
WEST: We can't - we can't...
ZOLLER: There's two parts that are going to happen here, though. We're going to move forward with this process. And wherever it takes us it will. But the second part of it has to do with the message that was sent on Tuesday because now we're going to be able to move towards getting our oil reserves and getting our oil needs out of the Middle East, because they'll be able to open up drilling in Anwar and that sort of thing, which is going to help us in the long run.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Scott.
WEST: I think that we can't dismiss the UN, regardless of what our thoughts might be on the member countries, the council member countries and whether or not they, in fact, are fans of democracy or not. We have to have more of the world community behind us if we're going to take this kind of initiative.
What happened on September 11 incensed the country, incensed the government and has, on the part of many people, called for a quick resolution to the situation with Saddam, the most dominant desperate in the world.
But there still has to be a diplomatic process that has to be executed and followed through before we can start talking about sending troops in. And whether or not Saddam eventually ends up resisting those attempts or not, we still have to do that, and we have to respect the process.
NEVILLE: OK. But anybody in the panel, do any of you have any confidence in Saddam that he will comply?
ZOLLER: Well, I have no confidence in Saddam. But I think what you're seeing here, with four people that have pretty different points of view, that three out of the four of us pretty much agree on this, which shows that, across the board, people understand the importance of this issue.
They might have differences, as far as how to get there, but they understand that this guy is not going to give up and that there's got to be different ways to handle it.
NEVILLE: And here's the thing, though. If he does not give up, as you just said, and if there is some sort of military action, then it's not just your typical war with knives and guns, we're talking about biological weapons, the very weapons that we're trying to get him to disarm.
ZOLLER: Well, and that's why we have to be sure what we're dealing with going in. And that's why we need to find out. And I'm sure we've got intelligence that isn't out there.
The president said today that he's going to give as much of the intelligence over to these countries so that they feel comfortable about what's happening. I think he's showing that he's willing to work with people.
NEVILLE: Oh, there is the bell. Time to move on.
Up next, do you wonder what was behind the sniper shootings? John Mohammed's ex-wife says she knows, and she's talking. Find out why she thinks the shootings were all about her.
And don't forget to give me a call or email. I want to hear from you. Get in on this "Free-For-All Friday" action. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, Democrats look for a political savior. Who's going to step up?
Also, what was the motive behind the sniper shootings? What until you hear what John Muhammad's ex has to say.
EMINEM, MUSICIAN/ACTOR: You worked here longer than me, and I get paid more than you do.
NEVILLE: And is it Eminem or Marshall Mathers? Can the angry young rapper keep it real and still go mainstream? This and more on today's "Free-For-All" underway right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville, and this is TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday".
Sniper suspects John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo both made their first appearances in Virginia courtrooms today. The Fairfax County prosecutor says Malvo already has tried to escape, and that 17- year-old's fingerprints were the only ones found on the Bushmaster .223. That's the gun allegedly used in the sniper shootings.
Now, he says he wants Malvo tried as an adult. The sniper suspect is being held without bond in an adult detention center.
OK, panel. I'm going to start with Curtis on this one. Several jurisdictions have been fighting over who would try Malvo and Muhammad first. Virginia won that battle. Is this a good thing?
ELLIS: Well, it seems like everybody's in a big rush to see who gets to execute these guys. I mean what kinds of deals were made in the back room? Well, if Virginia gets to execute them, will Maryland get to poke the body with a stick? And will Washington state get to behead the bodies? And then Louisiana can serve up blackened...
NEVILLE: Yes, but it's more - you know it's more detailed than that, Curtis. I mean this is about where there going - if convicted, where they would be able to hand down the death penalty.
ELLIS: Right. Exactly. And I think this is very unseemly. Remember, what the wife talked about, what motivated Muhammad, we should try to understand this.
NEVILLE: Yes, hang on for me because - don't jump the gun...
ELLIS: I think it's very unseemly to try to execute these people...
NEVILLE: Why?
ELLIS: ... to trip over each other. Well, what will it accomplish? It's not going to bring anybody back. I am opposed to the death penalty.
NEVILLE: Oh, OK.
ELLIS: I say we should try to understand what makes this guy tick. He's a product of the military.
ZOLLER: Oh, come on! Please!
ELLIS: His wife...
ZOLLER: I do not want to understand any more about what's wrong...
NEVILLE: Hang on. Hang on one second. Audience, are you applauding for what Curtis Ellis said, that we should try to understand, or are you saying you agree with Martha Zoller here?
Stand up for me, Linda (ph). Stand up for me, Linda (ph). Tell me why you were agreeing with Martha Zoller.
LINDA: Because it's kind of hard to say that they are the ones that did it, but since they've been caught, it has been stopped. And if that's what it's going to take to keep it from happening again, they need to set an example right now.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you very much.
ELLIS: Well, we know that the death penalty is not a deterrent. I don't think John...
FLYNN: These guys killed a dozen people.
ELLIS: Yes. Well, I don't think John Muhammad said oh, I'm going to kill people, but maybe I shouldn't because I might get killed. I don't think he worried about the death sentence. I don't think that's what motivated him.
FLYNN: He's worried about it now.
ELLIS: It's not a deterrent.
Flynn: He's worrying about it now, Curtis.
ELLIS: No, he's not.
WEST: We are talking - we're talking as if we know this...
ELLIS: He was talking - he was talking to the state prosecutors when the federal prosecutor came in and said we don't want to hear what this guy has to say. Let's move him to Baltimore.
ZOLLER: Well, it doesn't worry me what...
ELLIS: We should know why he came back from the Persian Gulf War a killer. Most of the serial killers in our history are products of the military. FLYNN: No, we should know why he had anti-American sentiments after 9/11.
ZOLLER: No, he's not the...
NEVILLE: Hang on, guys, we're getting muddled here. Hang on for me. Take a pause, panel, and I'm going to Louisiana where Erik (ph) is on the phone.
Go ahead, Erik (ph).
CALLER: Yes, good afternoon.
NEVILLE: Afternoon.
CALLER: Now, I know there's a lot going on now today about where the snipers should be tried. I say send them to Louisiana. I guarantee you, we'll try them as adults, convict them and give them the chair. If they did the crime, I think they should be able to do the time.
Now, I mean, there's a lot going on in society today, but these guys don't have the right to take on themselves to just go out and start shooting people. No. That's wrong. I say make an example of them now that might give a deterrent for future references.
NEVILLE: Erik (ph) thank you for calling in. I've got Sarah (ph) here from Connecticut. You say what?
SARAH: I think that if you kill him, it's giving him the easy way out, and he doesn't actually have to pay for what he did, and he doesn't have to suffer. It's just a two-second death.
NEVILLE: Scott West, is that the easy way out?
WEST: Personally, I don't think it's the easy way out. I don't think being put to death is easy. You know, I don't look at it like that. But I do think that we're approaching this thing as if we have all the facts. We're sitting here, and none of us are privy to some of the information these investigators, these prosecutors, those people interviewing Malvo and Muhammad are getting, and we're going based on what we read and what information is given to us through the filter of the media and through the filter of these authorities.
I think that the process has to take effect. I'm not necessarily a fan of the death penalty, but I think this is a heinous crime, for which that type of punishment, in my opinion, should be meted out. Now...
ZOLLER: And I'm not so...
ELLIS: It's real easy to oppose the death penalty when it's your grandmother who's going to be executed, but when it's somebody who - these guys are creeps. There's no question about it.
WEST: They are the ones... ELLIS: And as the man from Louisiana said, they don't have the right to go out and shoot people...
ZOLLER: Do you know what, though? I'm not so worried...
ELLIS: ... but that doesn't give us the right to kill people to say killing is bad.
ZOLLER: Guys, wait a minute. I'm not so worried about whether they get the death penalty or life in prison. I'm more worried that, if they're guilty, they're going to get off altogether because we get more worried about why they committed the crime and getting into their heads.
I'm more worried that justice is not going to be done here because we're more concerned about why he did it. And, Curtis, shame on you for saying...
ELLIS: No, Martha, I don't think these people are going to get off.
ZOLLER: Shame on you for saying the military could have done this!
WEST: I don't think they're going to get off either.
ZOLLER: The military is a microcosm of America.
ELLIS: I didn't say the military did this.
ZOLLER: There are bad people in the military.
ELLIS: Martha. Martha, if I may, I did not say the military did this.
FLYNN: Curtis, I served in the...
ELLIS: Let me answer that. I did not say the military did this. I said, and it's a fact, that the military trains people to learn how to kill.
NEVILLE: OK. There is the bell.
ELLIS: People don't want to kill; they have to be taught how to kill.
NEVILLE: I've got to take a break right now.
Hey, Dave in California, if you can, stay on the phone. Maybe you'll speak in the next block. And I see you up there as well.
All right, listen. Here's a question for you. Why does John Muhammad's ex-wife think she was the real focus of the sniper attacks? You'll be amazed at the story she has to tell, and you'll hear it all from me, next on the "Free-For-All." Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And right there is a live shot of Harold Ford, Jr. He is one of a couple of representatives vying to replace Minority House Leader, Dick Gephardt - hello - Gephardt. And we're going to talk about that a little bit later in the show.
In the meantime, Mildred Muhammad is in hiding. She's the ex- wife of sniper suspect John Muhammad, and she is convinced Muhammad was out to kill her. She told the "Washington Post" that she believed the Beltway shootings were all part of an elaborate diversionary plot in which she would eventually be killed and Muhammad would claim their three children. Marcia Slacum Greene interviewed Mildred Muhammad, and here's part of what she learned.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARCIA SLACUM GREENE, SPECIAL PROJECTS REPORTER, "WASHINGTON POST": Until he was arrested and until she went back to look at the places where some of the shootings had taken place, it was only then that she started seeing what could be clues.
She indicated that, for example, Michael's was one of her favorite stores. And she indicated, when she lived in Tacoma, Washington, that was one of the places that she shopped and that, in fact, she had bought material from Michael's to make the bride and groom for their wedding, the miniature bride and groom.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: So she thought that was a signal to her, then.
SLACUM GREENE: So she thought that was a signal. She also looked at the fact that one of the shootings that has been linked to him in Maryland is less than a mile from where she lived and directly across the street from where she used to catch the bus. This is a woman who believed that he was in this area stalking her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: Marcia Slacum Greene talking to Leon Harris earlier today here on CNN.
All right, Dan. Mildred Muhammad, John's ex-wife, says she's convinced so many people lost their lives because her ex-husband was trying to kill her. Is that conceivable?
FLYNN: I think it's definitely conceivable. I think that's one of the things that probably put him over the edge. Something that's overlooked in this is the fact that, after 9/11, this Muhammad character was going around telling everyone how much he sympathized with the hijackers.
He was a nation of Islam bodyguard during the Million Man March. He hated America. And like the other people that have been terrorizing this country for over a year, he was a Muslim who hated America. So it's not, as Curtis said, grandmothers that go around doing these things. It's Muslims who hate America. And I think we should wake up to that fact and stop brushing that under the rug. Because let's face it, if this guy was motivated by pro-life fanaticism...
NEVILLE: Hang on, Dan. Let me understand something.
FLYNN: ... or if he was motivated...
NEVILLE: So, Dan, hang on. Are you saying that you believe that his motivation - if he actually did these killings - that you believe that Muhammad's motivation was not the fact that he had something out for his wife, but because he's an angry Muslim?
FLYNN: I think there were a number of things contributing to it. But the fact remains, if this were a pro-life fanatic or some militia member, the press would be all over it. It would be front page news. People would be talking about these right-ring motivations.
But yet, because this is inconvenient for folks in the media that he has these anti-American views...
NEVILLE: How can you say that, sir? How can you say that? Those issues have been raised.
FLYNN: Hardly. Hardly.
NEVILLE: In fact, no one knows what is inside John Muhammad's head...
FLYNN: Hardly.
NEVILLE: ... because there aren't any particular victims in this particular case. It was random.
ELLIS: Arthel, Flynn is making my argument for me. This is another reason why we don't want to just kill them, get it over with, let's shut up and move on, have closure. We want to find out, why did this guy do this? Was it because he hated his wife? Was it because he hated America?
FLYNN: How many years do you need, Curtis, to find out why?
ELLIS: Is it because he hated America? Was he working for al Qaeda? The last person that would want that to come out in the press is John Ashcroft because it makes the FBI look like a bunch of monkeys who haven't been doing their job to protect this country. He would rather this guy be executed. Execute both of them and let's shut the whole thing up and move along and declare victory.
NEVILLE: So wait a minute, Curtis. Curtis, hang on. Curtis, Curtis...
ELLIS: That's why let's investigate this.
NEVILLE: Curtis, are you - hang on, Scott. Excuse me. Curtis, are you implying that, perhaps, Muhammad is working with a larger ring of people?
ELLIS: I just think it's very suspicious how a homeless guy can fly all over the country, drive all over the country, have geo- positioning satellite equipment in this country. What's going on here? I want to know!
NEVILLE: Mean, like how could he get away with this for so long, if he is, in fact, the sniper?
ELLIS: If he's working alone. Is it the lone gunman theory we're seeing again, the lone nut?
NEVILLE: Well, I don't know, Scott. Scott, well, again, we don't know all the facts here, as you pointed out earlier, Scott. We're dealing with what authorities are telling us.
ELLIS: Exactly.
NEVILLE: But part of the reports say, again, that Muhammad allegedly and Malvo allegedly committed some robberies along the way, which is, perhaps, to gain some cash.
ZOLLER: How they funded...
WEST: How he was funded does not necessarily have to be from al Qaeda. And my thought is, if 9/11 had never happened, are we saying that this sniper and these attacks would not have happened, that that was a catalyst or it was linked? And insofar as the wife thinking that she was, in some way, shape or form, the catalyst for this or the victim, call me overly cynical, but I'm smelling a book deal, and I think this is...
ZOLLER: Well, and if he...
NEVILLE: Well, that's an interesting perspective. Hey, listen, Martha, you know what I want to do here - excuse me, Martha. I want to move on because what I wanted to show you now is part of that interview Leon Harris did earlier with the reporter from the "Washington Post," Ms. Greene. It talks about what the ex-wife said about Muhammad's relationship with Malvo. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SLACUM GREENE: She never met Malvo, but she indicated that knowing her husband, knowing just how good he was at what she calls mind games, that she said that, you know, John Malvo, who's only 17, but his life was over when he met John Muhammad, because Muhammad would try to control him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: OK. So if this, indeed, is the case, Scott West, I'll ask you, does Malvo deserve the death penalty?
WEST: I don't think any 17-year-old should be immediately put in a gas chamber or electrocuted. I think it sets a very dangerous precedent. And again, there are a lot of things we just don't know.
We tend to offer our opinions, oftentimes, as though they are statements of fact. We're not privy to this information, as the people prosecuting it are. And we have to kind of trust that system. I'm not trying to belabor that point, but it's a fact.
And I also believe that, as we start gathering all these different pieces of information...
NEVILLE: There is the bell. Sorry about that, Scott.
WEST: That's all right.
NEVILLE: You love that bell, don't you? I do.
WEST: I love it, yes.
NEVILLE: I do. All right, listen. Democrats are looking for answers after Republicans took key seats in Tuesday's election. So could Hillary Clinton save the party?
Our question of the day: Should Hillary Clinton run for the presidency in 2004? Hey, no booing! No booing! But I will hear your thoughts, when TALKBACK LIVE continues.
Go ahead and take that TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote and cnn.com. We'll check those numbers later in the hour and find out what all this booing is about in this audience. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everybody, to TALKBACK LIVE.
Listen, we are going to San Francisco now where a Republican -- excuse me, Democrat Representative Nancy Pelosi, who is vying to replace House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt has something to say about that.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), CALIFORNIA: ... a large number of private commitments that gave me a huge majority of the House Democrats. That's the news.
You know that yesterday the House Democratic Leader, Richard Gephardt, announced he would not stand for reelection as House Democratic leader. I reserved his news sadly. He has been a great leader for our country and will continue to be.
But in terms of the House Democratic leader, he has held us to a high standard of performance and a tough pace working for the American people. I look forward to continuing my work with him to benefit the children of America.
With his statement, the way was opened for a race for House Democratic leader. I gave you the news at the top of this meeting. On Thursday, November 14, I will have my name placed in nomination for House Democratic leader. I will do so with an overwhelming majority of commitments from my colleagues in the House. I will do so with great pride in representing California in the Congress of the United States.
I will do so with a commitment to building the economy, growing the economy of our country to make the future brighter for every person in our country. I think that we will have a list of the commitments, because that seems to be what everyone is interested in shortly. And, again, welcome the opportunity to work with my colleagues.
NEVILLE: OK. At this point, Representative Nancy Pelosi isn't the only one vying for Dick Gephardt's position here. We're also hearing from Representative Harold Ford Jr., who says that it's time for a change as well. Let's listen to what he said earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAROLD FORD JR. (D): If you want something different, if you want a change, if you want to lead in a bold and new direction, if you want to aspire to be a better party than we are right now, I say give my candidacy a chance, give our candidacy a chance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK, listen, obviously there's a lot of soul-searching amongst the Democratic Party. And Martha, I want to talk to you about this. Representative Harold Ford says there is definitely need for new blood among the Democrats. Do you believe that to be true?
ZOLLER: Oh, definitely. If anything, we learned on Tuesday that the Democrats lacked a message. They didn't go forward. They do need some new blood.
Harold Ford Jr. would be a great choice, I think, of the three that are up there. And Martin Frost, we saw a little bit of a picture of him. And it looks like hope to be speaker -- that Gephardt was with him. And I don't know if that's a sign of solidarity there.
I would love to see Harold Ford Jr., because it would be nice for the Democrats to put their money where their mouth is and actually put African-Americans in top leadership positions in the United States Congress.
NEVILLE: OK. But, listen, here's the deal. That a lot of critics are saying that the Democrats indeed ignored their voter base, which much of that is the black voter. And so by putting someone such as Representative Ford in place, who is a black man, obviously, does that automatically mean there is going to be a change in that direction? That they were not going to take their voter base for granted?
ZOLLER: Well, no. Hopefully we learned also on Tuesday that just because somebody is a certain color or a certain background, that they are not just going to vote for that person. We are going to hopefully go by ideas. But I think what we have to see, as time goes on, is the interesting candidates that did set themselves apart. And he's not a candidate yet, but the only candidate or presidential hopeful that really sets themselves apart, and it pains me to say this, is Al Gore. Al Gore had a message. He had a way he thought the Democratic Party should go. I didn't agree with it, but at least he got up there and said, this is what I stand for and this is what the president's doing wrong and here's what I do if I was doing it. He got a lot of criticism for that.
NEVILLE: So Curtis, is that the problem? That none of the Democrats are standing up for something?
ELLIS: Exactly. Historically, the Democratic Party has been the party for poor people and working people. They did not have that message in this last election. They had no message at all. They've been running away from that heritage.
They've got to tell the American people that prosperity and the middle class is a function and result of government programs. Everybody says, I made this money myself when they have money. They forget that they got a cheap mortgage from the HFA, they got a college education, thanks to the GI (ph) bill. And if their working at a defense plant in Marietta, Georgia, their paycheck is coming from taxpayers in New York and New Jersey.
Redistributed wealth. These are all Democratic new deal programs which created the middle class. The Democratic Party has to reiterate that message, has to tell people that prosperity comes by the direct intervention of government regulated business and allowing...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Let me jump in here and ask Dan, based on what Curtis just said, that Democrats need to stand up and say something specific to the American people, is that going to be an easy job, considering just earlier today that there was a U.N. resolution that was passed that, perhaps, might lead to an invasion in Iraq?
FLYNN: The Democrats were quite successful in the 1990s when they moved towards the center. It's only in this last election when they moved way to the left, and you had guys like David Bonior (ph), and Jim McDermott going over to Baghdad, allowing themselves to be propaganda tools of Saddam Hussein, that people started to back away.
They put up a bunch of retreads, like Walter Mondale and Lautenberg in New Jersey. this was not a bunch of fresh faces. This is the old Democratic Party of the 1970s and '80s. And it wasn't the more centrist Clinton Democratic Party.
It seems a lot of folks that are Democrats, the lesson that they're taking from this is we've got to move left. And if they do that, they're going to find themselves even less successful than they were this past week. Terry McAuliffe said that Tuesday was a great night for Democrats. I'd like to see what a bad night for Democrats is.
NEVILLE: Hey Scott... WEST: Arthel...
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Scott.
WEST: I agree with that. I think that one of the things that we learned in this last election is that there are a lot of the young black voters that are leaning Republican. Because while the message of the '90s was that the Democratic Party reached out to poor people, well, you've got a lot of young African-Americans that are trying to get out of that that are having success in the workplace, and are leaning towards what seems to be the more prosperous party, the Republican Party.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on, Curtis. I want to follow with Scott here. I'm tight on time. But Scott, that's exactly the point that I was going to go to next, which is, maybe this is not about race. This is about age.
WEST: Exactly.
NEVILLE: Representative Harold Ford is 32. Perhaps he can bring in a fresh perspective.
WEST: Yes, and that's much needed on the part of the Democratic Party. There's no passion in the party right now. That was exhibited in lackluster turnout by Democrats.
NEVILLE: Oh, Scott, you got the bell again. I'm sorry.
WEST: I'm working the bell.
NEVILLE: All right. You know what that means. We have to move on.
We've all been talking about the Democrats re-inventing themselves. Well, up next, can Eminem survive a Hollywood makeover? Does acting out mean selling out? Don't go anywhere. The talk continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Eminem's new movie "8 Mile" hits a movie theater near you tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP "8 MILE")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He worked here longer than me and I get paid more than you do. Dog, take a seat. What's this guy standing in line for? He ain't got money to eat!
Check this out. Yo, yo. Scott (ph) cashed his whole check and bought one Ho-Ho (ph). I don't know what they told you, Mike (ph). You must have had those cornrows rolled to tight.
It's a job. You want to quit, but you can't. You worked at the plant so long, you're a plant. Look at your boots, they're starting to grow roots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK, everybody. But his move from the street to the silver screen has some people wondering if Eminem isn't trading a sure-fire recording career for something too mainstream. Is it Eminem or is it Marshall Mathers?
And Scott, since the bell cut you off twice, if Eminem is indeed going mainstream, does he lose his edge?
WEST: Well, first of all, this role, I don't think, causes him to lose any of his edge. In fact, hardly a stretch. I mean, he's playing a rapper.
There are a lot of people taking exception to him and being a white guy doing what has been for a long time established black art. But, at the same time, I think that the only way you really lose the edge that he's developed as a rap artist, is if he starts taking on other roles that call for him playing somebody other than who he is or it gets tight.
And I think he's probably taken a hard look at the L.L. Cool Jays (ph) of the world, the Wil Smiths of the word, the Ice Cubes (ph) and the Iced-Ts (ph). And he's seen how they've been able to cross over into film. And that's pretty much what any artist nowadays is looked upon as, a multi-media star.
The whole American idol thing has been based on not really whether the best singers were picked, but who is that person that we can market, not only as a recording artist, but who can we move into a few other areas of media? And so he's just exploiting that opportunity, and I think he's done a successful first attempt with "8 Mile."
NEVILLE: OK. Hang on, panel, I know you want to jump in. But I have an e-mail I want to share with everybody now. It is coming from Myrna (ph) in California. She says, "I saw "8 Mile" last night and I was very impressed with Eminem's performance. If people just listen to the words he raps, maybe they'll understand what Eminem is all about."
And you'll see, Martha, I'll come to you on that, because that is the deal. I mean, there are a lot of people who are critiquing him and they don't listen to his lyrics.
ZOLLER: Well, I think he really reminds me of Madonna. Not because of any looks or obviously like that. It's that he's trying to move into this movie career, and I think he'll probably have as uneventful a movie career as Madonna did.
But you've got to give a guy credit for trying to re-invent himself, for being a commercial success. We don't listen to his music at my house. It's not allowed in my house because we have rules about that.
But, you know, you can't fault him for trying to do as well as he can. But I have to take a little exception with what Scott said. And I know he said rap art. But, you know, being commercial success isn't necessarily art. Art, in my mind, uplifts you. I don't think that's what Eminem does.
NEVILLE: But, you know what, Martha...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Yes, because he does uplift some people.
ZOLLER: Well, I don't know if the message is positive.
WEST: Well, I don't believe it's positive either, Martha. But whether we agree with it or not, it is an art form. And I also think that you have to take into account the fact that a lot of people didn't like Iced-T (ph) and his cop killer song a few years back. But now he comes into our living rooms every Friday night on...
NEVILLE: OK. Let me jump in here for a second, guys, because I have Rick here. Now I just said that Eminem uplifts some young people, meaning that his struggle from the so-called bottom to the top. What do you say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got to admit, I've never been a big fan of Eminem at all. But I really respect his talent and what he does. And I don't think a lot of people understand Eminem. And I think this movie might help people understand him more, understand what he's been through, understand how he has a talent.
NEVILLE: Bell, got to go. Somebody else got it Scott, this time. It wasn't you.
Well, listen, the bell means we have to move on. We are out of time talking about Eminem. Thanks for chiming in on that one.
Next up, Sharon Osbourne takes on Oprah? We'll talk about it after the break. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
It's time for our fast-paced free-for-all flash round.
First up, Winona Ryder was convicted of shoplifting at Saks in Beverly Hills. She could get up to three years in jail. But prosecutors are pushing for probation. Which should it be -- Dan.
FLYNN: A week in jail.
NEVILLE: Curtis.
ELLIS: Community service. Working at Salvation Army sorting clothes for the thrift store.
NEVILLE: Scott.
WEST: Restitution, probation. I wish I could care more about this, but I have a life.
NEVILLE: Martha.
ZOLLER: How does a woman who makes $10 million a picture have to shoplift? I don't get that.
NEVILLE: So what was your answer?
ZOLLER: So...
NEVILLE: Probation, jail?
ZOLLER: Yes. Well, I mean, I think she's been humiliated enough, so...
WEST: Martha's with me on this.
NEVILLE: All right. Moving on, next up, Princess Diana's former butler, who has been sharing royal secrets with the press, is getting his own TV show in Britain. What the butler saw will be a quiz show about the royal family in topics in the news. Good idea or tacky -- Dan.
FLYN: I'm glad I live in the United States and I don't have to watch it. Tacky.
NEVILLE: Curtis.
ELLIS: Really, I hope they don't carry this on cable over here.
NEVILLE: Scott.
WEST: Sad part about it is we'll probably be seeing it on Fox any day now.
NEVILLE: Martha.
ZOLLER: I think it's tacky, tacky, tacky, especially after the queen kind of saved him last week.
NEVILLE: Next up, another talk show. Sharon Osbourne told Barbara Walters this week that she regretted letting MTV cameras into her house. But now there are reports the Osbourne mom will host her own Oprah-like talk show starting this fall. Would you watch -- Dan.
FLYN: I don't think it's going to be Oprah-like. I'll watch, though. I think it will be more exciting than Oprah, or Dr. Phil or anything like that. I'll be tuned in. NEVILLE: Curtis.
ELLIS: I'll watch the first one. After that, I don't know. We'll just have to see what it's like.
NEVILLE: Scott.
WEST: This thing is intoxicating and it has obviously intoxicated her. But I don't watch The Osbournes, so...
NEVILLE: Martha.
ZOLLER: I think I'd watch it, an episode or two, but I don't think it would be a habit.
NEVILLE: And finally, more -- no pun intended -- anyway, and finally more ads. This time on police cars. Several towns across the U.S. are looking into a marketing pitch that would have them pay $1 for a police car, and in return, the car would be covered with advertisements. Good idea? Dan.
FLYN: It's a very silly idea.
NEVILLE: Curtis.
ELLIS: I can see the L.A. Police, to protect and serve... Dunkin' Donuts.
NEVILLE: Scott.
WEST: I think the same people that want to give the butler the TV show have come up with this idea. I'm saying, this is really bad. Really bad idea.
NEVILLE: Martha.
ZOLLER: Well, I guess you'd have to wonder if you saw them coming up behind you if you were going to have to pull over or you were getting take-out.
NEVILLE: All right. That's good. All right, well, there's the bell. That's a nice note to end this segment on.
Listen, up next, our "question of the day." We've already talked about the problems in the Democratic Party. So here's a question for you. What do you think about a Hillary Clinton presidency? We'll hear from you and this audience after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
After Tuesday's dismal showing for Democrats, could a Hillary Clinton presidency save the party? Our "question of the day," should Hillary Clinton run for president in 2004? I'm going straight to the phones. Janet (ph) in Illinois, what do you say? CALLER: Why not Hillary, why not now?
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you, Janet. Let's pop up some e-mails here now. Delores (ph) in Illinois: "No, Hillary Clinton should not run for president. She should stay in the Senate where she begged to be elected."
OK. Let me hear what this gentleman here has to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just want to say, I feel like Hillary Clinton should run for president now, because the Democratic Party does need new blood because they need to distinguish themselves from Republicans. People voted against the Democrats or did not vote for the Democrats because they basically just ran with the president.
NEVILLE: All right. I'm running out of time. Thank you, brother.
OK, listen. Let's pop up a four-shot of all my panel. Oh, look, Rob (ph) is writing, and he says, "If Hillary runs for president, the Democrats will have learned nothing from the 2002 election. But if she does run, how about Mondale for her vice president?"
Hmm. All right, panel, you're on. I want a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Hillary for president? Yes or no?
FLYNN: For the Republican's sake, yes.
ZOLLER: Oh, no.
NEVILLE: All right. Listen -- what, Scott?
WEST: No. I think that she should run, but not in 2004. I think that 2008 will be the best time for her to run.
ELLIS: Her stocks definitely went up on Tuesday. Her stocks definitely went up on Tuesday. I don't think she's the best the Democrats could do, but her stock went up.
WEST: Oh, no question. But I don't think 2004 is the year.
ZOLLER: Well, see, but the candidates she supported lost. The ones that she and her husband and Terry McAuliffe stumped that they marked lost.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: All right. Let me get some audience in here, guys. Denise (ph), what do you say?
DENISE: I say she's already been president for two terms and we don't need her anymore.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. David (ph), do you want to add to this, sir? DAVID: I just feel like she has her on agenda, not the agenda for the people. And I just question her femininity. Why did she stay married to Bill Clinton with all of the things he did and everybody knew about?
WEST: See, therein lies the problem. It really has nothing to do with her qualifications. People just don't like her because she stood by her man.
(CROSSTALK)
ZOLLER: No, there's a lot of other things.
NEVILLE: Oh, listen, let me see. Do I have time for one more quick react here from Serena (ph)? Quickly.
SERENA: I just believe she doesn't have what it takes.
NEVILLE: Well, that's to the point. Listen, I think we are out of time for this edition of TALKBACK LIVE. This has been free-for-all Friday. I want to thank Dan Flynn, Curtis Ellis, Scott West and Martha Zoller. Thanks so much for being here. Enjoyed your conversation.
I'm Arthel Neville. Have a great weekend, everybody.
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